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Leviathan
01-11-2003, 05:07 AM
Shots played along a long rail and into a corner pocket have a way of rattling the pocket and escaping across table, as in this illustration:

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How should these shots be played? Advice about (a) aim, (b) speed, and (c) spin would be appreciated!

Thanks,

D.M.

Popcorn
01-11-2003, 08:39 AM
That shot like most shots has a margin of error. Assuming you have hit the shot well enough to go in, the speed would have the greatest effect on the ball jarring if not hit perfectly. Those shots are actually quite easy I feel, because the rail adds a reference point to the shot. It gives you the exact line to the pocket. But because of the angle, you have a somewhat smaller pocket and how hard you hit it will determine how forgiving the pocket can be.

Paul_Mon
01-11-2003, 10:49 AM
D.M.

I practice the shot below often. It is a useful one pocket shot. One of the side benefits is that you often miss the bank into pocket A and instead make it straight into pocket B. You'll get a feel for what it takes to make the ball in either pocket. The bank is played using "pocket" speed, just enough to make it fall into pocket A. I prefer to use 1/2 tip of inside (towards the pocket) on this bank. If you have the opportunity, read "Advanced Pool" by George Fels. He's an advocate of using inside english and devotes many pages to the benfits of such. Note that the object ball is exactly 1 balls width away from the rail. Make sure to practice this from both side of the table.

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Paul Mon~~~~~Fred this hopes

silverbullet
01-11-2003, 02:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> That shot like most shots has a margin of error. Assuming you have hit the shot well enough to go in, the speed would have the greatest effect on the ball jarring if not hit perfectly. Those shots are actually quite easy I feel, because the rail adds a reference point to the shot. It gives you the exact line to the pocket. But because of the angle, you have a somewhat smaller pocket and how hard you hit it will determine how forgiving the pocket can be. <hr /></blockquote>

Certainly no pool expert. well that is my disclaimer. There are a few shots I am decent on and this is one of them.It seems easier than a cut on an ob in the middle of the table and have heard it is easier due to what popcorn said about having a reference.

When I was first learning this shot was told ie for frozen on the rail, a little oe if not frozen. Actually, I do a little ie also if nearly almost frozen. It seems to work, maybe others have more experienced ideas /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif, but it does require an accurate aim. When I miss these, it seems to be lack of focus and not locking onto to the ob just before the final stroke and follow. I think that if I hit these too hard, they do tend to bobble out more often.

bw

Rod
01-11-2003, 03:57 PM
Ok well curiousity got me. What are you doing with the c/b?
Just to make the shot I'd aim to the right inside edge with no english med slow speed. But then again I don't know where the c/b needs to be next.

01-11-2003, 04:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote silverbullet:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> That shot like most shots has a margin of error. Assuming you have hit the shot well enough to go in, the speed would have the greatest effect on the ball jarring if not hit perfectly. Those shots are actually quite easy I feel, because the rail adds a reference point to the shot. It gives you the exact line to the pocket. But because of the angle, you have a somewhat smaller pocket and how hard you hit it will determine how forgiving the pocket can be. <hr /></blockquote>

Certainly no pool expert. well that is my disclaimer. There are a few shots I am decent on and this is one of them.It seems easier than a cut on an ob in the middle of the table and have heard it is easier due to what popcorn said about having a reference.

When I was first learning this shot was told ie for frozen on the rail, a little oe if not frozen. Actually, I do a little ie also if nearly almost frozen. It seems to work, maybe others have more experienced ideas /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif, but it does require an accurate aim. When I miss these, it seems to be lack of focus and not locking onto to the ob just before the final stroke and follow. I think that if I hit these too hard, they do tend to bobble out more often.

bw <hr /></blockquote>

Leviathan
01-11-2003, 05:50 PM

Let me try to explain what I'm looking for here. I'm asking whether there's anything I can do to lock the OB in the corner pocket. Popcorn points out that one doesn't have to aim this shot precisely if one plays it gently. Okay, that's a good thing to know. But what if I need to hit the cueball harder (for reasons that will vary from situation to situation)? If I'm gonna play the shot successfully, I'm gonna need to know how aim and spin can be used to keep the OB in the pocket. So if you will, assume that I want to pocket the OB and tell me whether I can hit the CB hardest if I direct the OB at A, at B, or at C. Assume that I want to pocket the OB and tell me whether I can hit the CB hardest if I play the shot with top, or backspin, or English of some kind.

Tell me how aim and spin can be regulated to keep the OB in the corner pocket on harder-hit shots, and let me figure out how to leave the CB where I want it in different situations.

Thanks again,

D.M.

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Leviathan
01-11-2003, 05:52 PM
Thanks, Popcorn. Happy New Year!--D.M.

Leviathan
01-11-2003, 05:59 PM
Thanks, Paul. The drill looks interesting--I think it might give me some of the info I'm looking for. And I'll see whether I can get hold of GF's book. I like GF's work.--D.M.

Leviathan
01-11-2003, 06:03 PM
Thanks, Silverbullet. I appreciate your help.--D.M.

01-11-2003, 11:27 PM
These are one of my favorite shots and I can almost any ball on the rail. My strategy is simple- I line up the edge of the CB so it looks like it barely touches the outer edge of the OB. For very steep angles a some inside english will do the trick. Hope this helps. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Fran Crimi
01-12-2003, 01:01 AM
You picked a good one.

What I've found is that there's sort of a trick to making this type of shot consistently. I'll tell you what it is, but you're going to have to figure out how to do it yourself. There may be other things that work as well, but I know this one to be true.

The trick is that your cue stick must be perfectly level all the way through the shot, right into your follow-through, whether you're using high, center or low...doesn't matter. If you angle your cue downward at the shot, even the slightest bit, you'll pop it and it'll jam.

Figure out how to keep your cue stick level all the way through and you can shoot it at a faster speed than you ever imagined. Then you can say you shoot that shot just like Efren Reyes does.

Good luck.

Fran

jjinfla
01-12-2003, 07:50 AM
Good point Fran, So easy to see in print, so hard to consistently accomplish on the table. Jake

Fred Agnir
01-12-2003, 09:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> Shots played along a long rail and into a corner pocket have a way of rattling the pocket and escaping across table, as in this illustration:

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How should these shots be played? Advice about (a) aim, (b) speed, and (c) spin would be appreciated!

Thanks,

D.M. <hr /></blockquote>

Can I assume you are consistently hitting short as shown? If so, what are you doing? That is, are you hitting center cueball and mediumish speed, aiming at ghostball point?

If so, then, my answer would be... adjust. Aim thinner if you're using center ball. If you're using outside-english, then don't, and you'll probably see that you won't miss short (if you're hitting with pace). And go buy you Byrne's standard Book of Pool, or Phil Capelle's Play Your Best Pool.

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks you're simply missing thick by contact-induced throw.

silverbullet
01-12-2003, 11:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> thinks you're simply missing thick by contact-induced throw. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Fred!!! Maybe that is why I miss these ocasionally. I do miss the way you describe when I missem.

bw

Rod
01-12-2003, 02:50 PM
Hi Duke,
Ok that's a fair question. Let's say in a perfect world, clean balls, dry conditions etc. Let me also say your stroke does have a bearing on your aim. This is something that Fran mentions in her post. How well the c/b rolls or stays on the table does have a bearing. Meaning even if you aimed perfect center pocket with a firm center ball hit (in this case we don't have center pocket just the aiming area) the o/b will hit wide of aim if the c/b is not on the table. By that I mean if the cue angle is not as level as possible the c/b can be in the air causing an over cut. That's not to say it won't go in, it might but it will be on the wide side. Also the mention of a level follow through really makes sense, since it tends to keep the c/b rolling on the table. A large percentage of my shots are with a level follow through. That's not what the pool schools teach however. Most will have you finishing with the tip on the cloth. OK enough about that but remember there is more than one way but, either way stroke quality is premium.

Whatever your stroke is, the aim point at firm speed. With right english your aim should be in the direction of A. With left it is a little outside of C, assuming C is center pocket. Aim at C with center at any speed, keeping in mind it may touch the rail going in at slow speed, contact induced throw.

Were dealing with a fine line here because of the amount of pocket opening as you well know. How much on either side of A or C you adjust your aim with side english is relevant to speed and amount of english. My suggestion, with a "good" stroke and aim of course. Pick your aim point at a slower speed. Using right english as an example you'll notice how your aim point moves from A, B, then C as a rough example as you increase speed. Use 1 tip and adjust then use two tips and adjust. Whether it's top, center, or draw doesn't matter at firm speeds. We could argue it does but since it's an extremely fine line I'll not use the text. What's more important is a quality stroke as mentioned earlier. Since squirt is an issue with side english that's my answer.

With right english.

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Leviathan
01-12-2003, 03:37 PM
Thanks, Rod--great stuff, very useful. Good of you to take the trouble; I stated the original question poorly and described the subject unclearly.

D.M.

dddd
01-13-2003, 01:09 AM
it rattles because you are hitting it into the facing slight wide and it bounces across the pocket to the other facing and bounces back out.
are you aiming into the center of the pocket and throwing the ball wide with english?
or are you aiming to the correct side of the pocket (professional side) and hitting it slighty wide and hard?
one must hit deep on the facing into the pocket as possible if hitting with speed.
reduction of speed will lessen this happening

to me its where in the pocket your trying to hit it
and what your doing to the q ball that causes one to miss this shot

if you straight on one must hit it true and straight, deep into the pocket as able hopefully you wont have to hit it too hard.

if your rattling it with angle and english your aiming into the center of the pocket and throwing it wide with english. aim more into the corner ( yes the rail itself ) of the long rail and hit it the same
it will now throw it more into the center of the pocket and it will not rattle

bigbro6060
01-13-2003, 06:01 AM
guys, i have to say it, along the rail shots on YOUR tables are piss easy compared to the tables i play on (tight curved pockets) . There is NO margin for error for along the rail shots on both snooker tables and the pool tables we play on. On the rare times i find and play on a 9ft american style table, shots along the rail are like so easy and i just never miss because i am used to the no margin for error. I just can't believe that you can get away with hitting the cushion and still getting the ball in ! On our tables the ball has the glide perfectly along the cushion, neither hitting the cushion or verring away from it or it won't go in!

That's what Steve Davis means when he says that potting is so much easier on american style 9ft tables that it becomes all about position.

Leviathan
01-13-2003, 06:15 AM
Thanks, dddd.

So I shouldn't let the OB contact the long rail because contact with the long rail causes the OB to strike the facing at a less favorable angle. Instead, I should aim to clear the long rail and shoot the OB as deep into the pocket as possible.

Another question, then: Suppose I draw the CB to apply follow to the OB. If I shoot the OB well back into the pocket, will this follow help hold the OB in the pocket?

D.M.

01-13-2003, 08:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> Another question, then: Suppose I draw the CB to apply follow to the OB. If I shoot the OB well back into the pocket, will this follow help hold the OB in the pocket?<hr /></blockquote>Whoa, I don't think you need to be worrying too much about transferring follow to the OB, at least not at this stage in your game. Unless the OB is already hanging within inches of the pocket, I don't think any amount of draw on the CB is going to impart more follow on the OB than the natural roll would anyway. At least that's my opinion...

I've often found myself missing easy shots because I'm trying to be too "fancy" or scientific about it, and wind up sacrificing accuracy or consistency of stroke. Thinking about how you're going to transfer follow (or draw) to an OB is one way of doing that. While the transfer of sidesping is useful (and fairly easy) to influence the rebound angle on bank shots, or to compensate for throw, the effects of transferring draw and follow are far less profound, and I would think infinitely more difficult to apply in any effective way than sidespin, in my opinion.

David

Perk
01-13-2003, 12:28 PM
I have read all the posts, and all good information. I think one of the most basic things on this shot is to just focus on hitting it with a center to slight follow stroke. If you are having alot of problems with this shot, it is probably due to the fact that you are trying to do too much with the CB. Left and Right english on shots can be useful, but if you are struggling with consistency, I would suggest that you lose it witht the english. If you are far enuff along with your game to understand the effects of english, i.e. squirt, spin, speed then you should be able to make this shot very easily with center ball....Just my thoughts. HTH

Rod
01-13-2003, 02:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Perk:</font><hr> I have read all the posts, and all good information. I think one of the most basic things on this shot is to just focus on hitting it with a center to slight follow stroke. If you are having alot of problems with this shot, it is probably due to the fact that you are trying to do too much with the CB. Left and Right english on shots can be useful, but if you are struggling with consistency, I would suggest that you lose it witht the english. If you are far enuff along with your game to understand the effects of english, i.e. squirt, spin, speed then you should be able to make this shot very easily with center ball....Just my thoughts. HTH <hr /></blockquote>

I see you point and I happen to agree with the first part. That would be for someone that just needs to make the ball. If one does have a better understanding of english, squirt, spin, speed then there doing themselves an injustice by just hitting center or top.
The shot has several possibilities that doesn't require a lot of speed. Firm speed on this shot combined with english no doubt makes it more difficult. Touching the rail going in or to wide at speed means the ball jars the pocket. This shot is only about a 15 or so degree angle.

All of these one rail position points are shot below med speed and slow on some. The problem is players feel the need for speed to make sure they get there, usually to far, hard and off line. What gets you there is solid stroke fundamentals combined with knowledge of english, speed and angles. Sending the cue ball to any of these points would be a good drill. There are more options of course but it will involve more speed. Just some thoughts.

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dddd
01-13-2003, 03:25 PM
generally you always need to hit deep on that facing if shooting with any speed, draw or follow, only when speed drops and ball is just rolling to drop into the pocket does hitting it wide on the facing work well. this is a result of speed.
from the angle drawn i would worry less of what i put on the object ball and worry more about where i need to put the q ball and try to accomplish that within making the object ball and getting that shape.
generally draw and transfer of follow work best when the balls are straighter but the follow only helps make it in the corner to a point. the follow causes the ball to try to push forward once it hits the rail and could cause it to bounce out as well. with follow i would attempt to play the cut and not try to throw it as much just make it and play the shape as best i can.

hitting the ball level and straight solve many issues,

dennis

Leviathan
01-13-2003, 04:47 PM
My thanks to those who have contributed info. You all make good sense, and I get the feeling you've covered the ground pretty thoroughly. I'll try to apply your suggestions.--D.M.