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01-13-2003, 04:22 PM
During the Derby City Classic with Rodney Morris playing Shawn Putman, Morris had a ball on the long rail and was going to attempt to pocket which would require the object ball to roll down the rail past the side pocket. As he walked past the side pocket he reached out and squeezed the far tit on the side pocket. Is this not altering the playing surface to your advantage?

Fran Crimi
01-13-2003, 04:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Davis:</font><hr> During the Derby City Classic with Rodney Morris playing Shawn Putman, Morris had a ball on the long rail and was going to attempt to pocket which would require the object ball to roll down the rail past the side pocket. As he walked past the side pocket he reached out and squeezed the far tit on the side pocket. Is this not altering the playing surface to your advantage? <hr /></blockquote>


It most certainly is. That is a clear attempt at cheating. If I were the TD, I would definitely declare unsportsmanlike conduct and loss of game, with a stern warning to Morris that any other incidents would result in loss of match.

He should never have gotten away with that.

Fran

Tom_In_Cincy
01-13-2003, 04:38 PM
Not sure if this is any different that picking up lint or chalk pieces off the table. If you think the point of the corner of a pocket has come loose or is a little out of sorts, you should call the TD for a table mechanic. Or you can just pinch it in a little to see if it helps. I doubt it was an intentional breach of ethics.

I was watching Daulton vrs Mad Max on the finals table and when Daulton was stetching across the table he moved the nine ball away from the corner pocket with his gut.... it moved about an inch and was closer to the rail.. incidental movement? I will assume so..

Vagabond
01-13-2003, 06:58 PM
Howdy,
The issue u raised is more to do with the rules of the game.Pool and billiard rules never included guidelines on Ethics( I am not aware of their existence).I do know that there are some references to the conduct of the players but they were not meant to be read as guidelines in ethics.Cheers
vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Fran Crimi
01-13-2003, 07:44 PM
I've seen that move quite a bit, Tom. If you push the tip of the cushion in hard enough, it takes a few seconds (at least 10-15 maybe?) before it expands back to form, and if you're quick enough, you can get your shot in before it expands back out.

It's the cheaters way of assuring themself a clean shot down the rail without side-pocket interference.

Fran

Tom_In_Cincy
01-13-2003, 07:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
It's the cheaters way of assuring themself a clean shot down the rail without side-pocket interference<hr /></blockquote>

Fran,

Isn't there suppose to be a clean shot down the rail by the side pocket on a pool table?

If it were me, I would have asked the TD to get a table mechanic and make the table correct. Its the players right to have the tables in good order for a tournament.

I'm not sure of the cushion's charactoristics, but if you say it takes that long to reshape.. I believe you..

Thanks for your comments.. I've always enjoyed them.. and they have been important to this forum.

Fran Crimi
01-13-2003, 08:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
It's the cheaters way of assuring themself a clean shot down the rail without side-pocket interference<hr /></blockquote>

Fran,

Isn't there suppose to be a clean shot down the rail by the side pocket on a pool table?

<hr /></blockquote>

That's a good point, Tom, and I'm not sure I know the answer. I've noticed that sometimes the ball goes clean, and sometimes it catches the point, and this is on the same table, same rail, so I think that it's probably a combination of three things, the distance of the ob to the rail, the pocket point, and the way the player hits the ball (English, speed, etc.).

I'm sure there is the occasional faulty table where the cushion is jutting out too far, but in order to figure that out, the player would have to shoot several shots down the rail with different types of spin. I don't think it's possible to tell just by looking at it (unless it was really, really bad), which is why I think Rodney wasn't taking any chances. Hard to imagine it would have been really bad at a tournament like that.

Fran
P.S. Thanks for the compliments. Much appreciated.

Sid_Vicious
01-14-2003, 12:12 AM
I was shown a sneaky way to get that squeeze in some few years ago, but only used it while passing the move on to a friend or two while horsing around. It may be partly self confidence, but I personally had a lot of success at not hanging that far tit in passing after the squeeze. I assume it was passed along in a sneaky way due to the fact that it was an alter to the table...sid

Rod
01-14-2003, 12:22 AM
Hi Vagabond,
Well Texas Express has their code of ethics. Question is do most pool players read them? /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I think this falls into the categorie of flagrant fouls, like patting the table and pushing or pulling on cloth etc. It's not in there but in the next few years when the fathers meet maybe they will add this one to it. Either that or I just haven't read all the fine print! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

silverbullet
01-14-2003, 06:55 AM
imo, both you and Fran are right. Get the td to check it . It isnt my table, I have no right to mess with it and to do so in a match, imo is deplorable.

sorry sid just the way i see this.if i win and i cheated to me it isnt a true win.

bw

jjinfla
01-14-2003, 07:54 AM
A couple of months ago a pro told me about that move. And of course it is done to give the shooter an advantage. And the pro told me that when it was done to him he got out of his chair, claimed a foul, got ball in hand, and the other guy just sat down because he got caught and knew it was wrong. Also done with the cue stick. You sure wouldn't allow someone to place the chalk on the rail, or mark the rail with chalk on a bank so why would you allow him to alter the playing surface? Jake~~~would probably miss that shot either way.

Sid_Vicious
01-14-2003, 08:30 AM
Where did I indicate acceptance???sid

WaltVA
01-14-2003, 09:33 AM
I have seen some small-time "wannabe" hustler types hold their cue in a "port arms" position with the butt right at the tit, then lean over to "examine the table" and apply pressure that way; another trick is to hold a piece of chalk in one hand on the rail, then lean over and make a show of studying something up-table while pressing the tit with the back of the chalk.

The fact the player is willing to go to all the misdirection and concealment to avoid being caught is pretty good evidence he knows it's likely to get him into a jam if he's caught.

Walt in VA

01-14-2003, 05:09 PM
in last years DCC(via accustats)there was a match
between Ralf Souquet and Keith McCready,in that match
Keith did the same thing however HE did in the Open
and didnt try to Hide it,he pushed the tit of the side pocket in HARD,and No one said a thing not even Ralf so
im just wondering if this is really cheating?

Fran Crimi
01-14-2003, 10:10 PM
To answer your question, to the best of my knowledge....yes it's cheating. Unfortunately, acceptance of these types of things is one of the things wrong with organized pool. Accepting lower standards doesn't make something right. It just makes it popular...like the use of the word 'tit' to describe a pocket point.

Fran

Chris Cass
01-15-2003, 07:02 AM
Hi Fran,

Good call. Another is to slide there hand along the felt while checking a ball, bumping the table and rippling the cloth moving and ob just slightly out of the way clearing a hole. 1/16th means all the difference and it's definitely a move.

Regards,

C.C.~~Fran Fan.....

silverbullet
01-15-2003, 11:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Where did I indicate acceptance???sid <hr /></blockquote>

maybe i read your post wrong. if i did i apoligize.

bw

01-15-2003, 11:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Davis:</font><hr> During the Derby City Classic with Rodney Morris playing Shawn Putman, Morris had a ball on the long rail and was going to attempt to pocket which would require the object ball to roll down the rail past the side pocket. As he walked past the side pocket he reached out and squeezed the far tit on the side pocket. Is this not altering the playing surface to your advantage? <hr /></blockquote>

ok, i read the whole thread. i tend to agree that mashing the rail is some kind of wrong thing to do but exactly what rule does it violate? and please, unsportsmanlike is just too vague in my opinion.

dan

Sid_Vicious
01-15-2003, 12:10 PM
Not to worry. If I knew I could use that method and it wasn't illegal, I'd still choose not to. Thing is I really always felt it was at the very least devious to mash the tit in like that and something made it wrong either way. My point was that it DOES apparently work well for the purpose of allowing room for the CB to slide by...sid

Rod
01-15-2003, 12:15 PM
Well I think that is where the problem lies. If there isn't a rule directed towards this move then how can you call a foul? I think most of us have seen it countless times. Until there is a specific rule then it will continue.

silverbullet
01-15-2003, 12:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Not to worry. If I knew I could use that method and it wasn't illegal, I'd still choose not to. Thing is I really always felt it was at the very least devious to mash the tit in like that and something made it wrong either way. My point was that it DOES apparently work well for the purpose of allowing room for the CB to slide by...sid <hr /></blockquote>

hmmm. I thought that if the table and all her parts are right then it was a straight line down the long rail past the side pocket. Is this incorrect?

bw

dave
01-15-2003, 12:34 PM
Every time I get to the point where I'm about to abandon this board forever (because of the redundancy of questions and answers); someone comes out with some new snippet of information that keeps me lurking. Too much, Chris!

Sid_Vicious
01-15-2003, 01:28 PM
"if the table and all her parts are right"

There lies the meat of this topic. Considering the manufacturer built it right, the mechanic who installed it properly attached things AND somewhere between then and the time you had the shot somebody did not sit or lean on the rail, the humidity factor has not fluctuated nor any seismic shifts have occurred in your region...then I'd say that you are correct. But if any of these things have changed the rail alignment, then it is the far tit that will determine whether your ball snags or not, cuz if the flaw is in the forward tit, you'd get grace not grief. It's just much more effective to compress that point just in case(if you are of a mind to bend things on purpose in your favor)...sid

snipershot
01-15-2003, 01:46 PM
Being a young buck such as myslelf I'm not overly familiar with the rules, but that certainly is altering the surface to your advantage, I'm just not sure which rule this is violating.

Fran Crimi
01-15-2003, 02:01 PM
Agreed. It would be better for there to be a rule specifically banning the player from tampering with the table; but since there isn't, I'd have no problem with declaring the act unsportsman-like, if that's what it takes for the player to be penalized. It seems that it's the only way at this point. The other possibility would be flagrant foul, but I think that you would have to commit a foul first before it could be declared flagrant.

IMO, this act shouldn't be considered a foul. It should be considered something like an 'illegal assist', and should be automatic loss of game.

I've always felt there should be a separate category for illegal assists which should result in autmatic loss of game. A lot of things we now call fouls, IMO, belong in that category, such as marking the table, or placing a piece of chalk to assist aiming. These acts are different from a foul that occurs either during the course of a shot, or an occurrence by accident, like accidentally touching the CB with your hand. But these other infractions that are with intent to illegally manipulate something to gain an edge, should really carry heavier penalties than BIH to the opponent.

It's about standards. Let's raise 'em and stop fooling around already.

Fran