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01-13-2003, 08:26 PM
Being a patron of local bars and a pool enthusiast I appreciate what you're saying but being a business owner I have a problem with it also. There are only a couple places to play pool in my area that could financially afford the upgrade you mention. Should you leave your home bar (and friends) because of their financial limitation? Most people in the bar business aren't financially independent. If they were they wouldn't be in the bar business but out playing pool complaining about not having state of the art equipment and berating the owner for not letting them enjoy doing the thing they love most for free (open tables). Ask the owners to keep their equipment in good condition and concentrate on improving your game. If you lose another excuse can always be found.

Tom_In_Cincy
01-13-2003, 08:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rider:</font><hr> Being a patron of local bars and a pool enthusiast I appreciate what you're saying but being a business owner I have a problem with it also. There are only a couple places to play pool in my area that could financially afford the upgrade you mention. Sorry for your location problems. Do you have any idea what an upgrade would cost? new cloth is an ongoing expense.. for a few dollars more you could have Simonis. The sensor upgrade, I haven't a clue about the costs. But it will be eventually available to all those Vally table vendors and table mechanics.

Should you leave your home bar (and friends) because of their financial limitation? Personal decision.. me... no.. I wouldn't.. but I would also like to have a choice of better equipment.

Most people in the bar business aren't financially independent. If they were they wouldn't be in the bar business but out playing pool complaining about not having state of the art equipment and berating the owner for not letting them enjoy doing the thing they love most for free (open tables). Ask the owners to keep their equipment in good condition and concentrate on improving your game. Great comment. But, improving your game also includes being consistant. The cloth and the red cirle ball will make a difference in the level of improvement. Don't trust me.. ask any good poll player.

If you lose another excuse can always be found.
Not sure where you are coming from on this last comment, but if you are referring to pool players in general, I agree.. excuses are always easily found. I haven't needed on in a long time.. When I lose, its usually because I have been beaten by a better player. <hr /></blockquote>

01-14-2003, 11:38 AM
Last nite in league we played at at bar with a
Valley table that had been reclothed with a "new" type of cloth by the vendor. According to the bar owner this new rubber backed cloth was very durable. As a team we practice on a Valley with good fast cloth &amp; we were totaly lost. This league match was an exercise in futility. Ball roll was so slow that few balls were hitting the rails on the break &amp; the remaining clusters were like they were glued together. Nothing even close to a runout all evening by either team. This was our poorest performance all season &amp; it sure put a downer on our team. Sadly, we have a city tourney this Saturday we had been looking forward to, not anymore after finding out that this vendor has probably put this "cloth" on some of these tables. After league play I took a few balls &amp; tried to put on maximum draw &amp; had a difficult time pulling it back two feet &amp; high english had seemed to "scoot" the ball forward about a foot then die.
Position play was purely center ball push &amp; hope for the right speed. Anyone else have any horror stories about this type of cloth? This vendor has a monopoly on tables in this area &amp; I cant see him changing anything for the better.

cheesemouse
01-14-2003, 11:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dewey52:</font><hr> Last nite in league we played at at bar with a
Valley table that had been reclothed with a "new" type of cloth by the vendor. According to the bar owner this new rubber backed cloth was very durable. As a team we practice on a Valley with good fast cloth &amp; we were totaly lost. This league match was an exercise in futility. Ball roll was so slow that few balls were hitting the rails on the break &amp; the remaining clusters were like they were glued together. Nothing even close to a runout all evening by either team. This was our poorest performance all season &amp; it sure put a downer on our team. Sadly, we have a city tourney this Saturday we had been looking forward to, not anymore after finding out that this vendor has probably put this "cloth" on some of these tables. After league play I took a few balls &amp; tried to put on maximum draw &amp; had a difficult time pulling it back two feet &amp; high english had seemed to "scoot" the ball forward about a foot then die.
Position play was purely center ball push &amp; hope for the right speed. Anyone else have any horror stories about this type of cloth? This vendor has a monopoly on tables in this area &amp; I cant see him changing anything for the better. <hr /></blockquote>

I'd get a petition going fast and present it to the vendor before they buy a bolt of the crap as big around as a Redwood tree. These guys only listen to the $$$.

Rod
01-14-2003, 04:01 PM
Dewey,
There is nothing new about backed cloth, it's been out for years. Only someone with 1/2 a brain would use it though. Yep it's like playing on a rug. I imagine he got a real special deal on that stuff since no one else would buy it!

01-14-2003, 04:49 PM
where bouts in TN are you ..sound like
you live in my hometown...lol /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
01-15-2003, 07:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dewey52:</font><hr> ..... <font color="red">This vendor has a monopoly on tables in this area </font color> ..... <hr /></blockquote>

Therein lies the whole crux of the problem. If not for that we might not be having this discussion.

If I were a bar owner I would just buy my own tables and maintain them but it's too much trouble for most owners, they just let the vending company do everything and the owner takes his cut. It's easy money.

01-15-2003, 10:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dewey52:</font><hr> ..... <font color="red">This vendor has a monopoly on tables in this area </font color> ..... <hr /></blockquote>

Therein lies the whole crux of the problem. If not for that we might not be having this discussion.

If I were a bar owner I would just buy my own tables and maintain them but it's too much trouble for most owners, they just let the vending company do everything and the owner takes his cut. It's easy money.

<hr /></blockquote>

Wally I do not think it is that easy to just buy your own tables. The vendor normally owns the property lease and sublets the location to the operator. In this sub-lease are strict limitaions on all the vending equipment. I imagine most vendors would allow the bar owner to purchase the new tables, pay for their ownership and still pay the 50 to 60% to the vending company but generally this would be a poor business decision. In addition it is likely the pool tables might become the property of the vendor as well, depending on the exact wording of the lease, and this possibility could be a financial catastrophe. These leases are often very unfair to the tavern operator yet to be in the business few alternatives are available.


Jimbo

Wally_in_Cincy
01-15-2003, 10:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimbo:</font><hr>
Wally I do not think it is that easy to just buy your own tables. The vendor normally owns the property lease and sublets the location to the operator. In this sub-lease are strict limitaions on all the vending equipment. I imagine most vendors would allow the bar owner to purchase the new tables, pay for their ownership and still pay the 50 to 60% to the vending company but generally this would be a poor business decision. In addition it is likely the pool tables might become the property of the vendor as well, depending on the exact wording of the lease, and this possibility could be a financial catastrophe. These leases are often very unfair to the tavern operator yet to be in the business few alternatives are available.


Jimbo
<hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for the perspective Jimbo. I think this brings us back around to the "monopoly" problem. If what you're saying is correct that means if you play footsie with the vendor everybody makes money, but if you don't everybody gets screwed except the vendor.

Actually I know of a few bars that own their tables. You can tell those because the tables are only 25 or 50 cents, whereas the vendor's tables cost 75 cents or a dollar.

Wally~~suddenly glad he doesn't have to deal with vending companies /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rod
01-15-2003, 11:13 AM
Jimbo,
I've never seen such a situation but I guess anything is possible. A guy would have to be short on business sense to buy into that situation. Unless that was the only opition which is doubtful. I'd just lease or buy property that the local vendor didn't have his hands in the pot.

What I have seen is bars sign a one year lease on tables, usually minium, then sell the bar. Depending on how the lease is written the new owner may have to honor that lease until the expiration.
Any prospective buyer needs to be aware of such not to mention the terms of lease on the building it self.

Leasing tables is just crazy even if you don't know a thing about them. A short course with any table mechanic on maintence would be the way to go for those that know nothing. If the set price by the vendor is 75 cents, and a 50-50 split, you can buy them and charge 50 cents and end up far ahead. That plus increase your business. People get tired of paying high prices just to play a game of pool. At 50 or left at 75 cents your going to have the nicest tables. Most vendors I've seen are terrible about keeping the equipment up plus they take their sweet time when you need something. It's at their discretion when "they think" the tables need recovered. I'm sure you know this but I just wanted to let others know.

01-15-2003, 02:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Jimbo,
I've never seen such a situation but I guess anything is possible. A guy would have to be short on business sense to buy into that situation. Unless that was the only opition which is doubtful. I'd just lease or buy property that the local vendor didn't have his hands in the pot.

What I have seen is bars sign a one year lease on tables, usually minium, then sell the bar. Depending on how the lease is written the new owner may have to honor that lease until the expiration.
Any prospective buyer needs to be aware of such not to mention the terms of lease on the building it self.

Leasing tables is just crazy even if you don't know a thing about them. A short course with any table mechanic on maintence would be the way to go for those that know nothing. If the set price by the vendor is 75 cents, and a 50-50 split, you can buy them and charge 50 cents and end up far ahead. That plus increase your business. People get tired of paying high prices just to play a game of pool. At 50 or left at 75 cents your going to have the nicest tables. Most vendors I've seen are terrible about keeping the equipment up plus they take their sweet time when you need something. It's at their discretion when "they think" the tables need recovered. I'm sure you know this but I just wanted to let others know. <hr /></blockquote>

Rod I agree completely with your statement regarding the average vendors attention to proper equipment maintanance. My post probably only applies in Oklahoma where zoning for bars/clubs is very restrictive. Most of the zoned areas are leased by the vendors leaving few profitable locations available to the independent ownwer/operator. As I mentioned previously I was fortunate enough to have my own lease and own all my own vending equipment. In order to do this in 1983 I had an initial cash outlay of $70,000 plus the required operating capital. If I had wanted to operate a vending club without any experience I could have waltzed in with 5 grand and be in business. With experience most vendors will "put you in" with no up front expense, however you are little more than a manager under either of these circumstances and relinquish a great deal of control simply to be somewhat independent. Operating under these restrictions most people with enough cash choose a business with less "hassle" than the club business. I had more than my share of 2am phone calls which is the primary reason I sold my clubs and returned to a more normal 9 to 5 lifestyle. Sorry if my post appeared to lump all areas of the country in with my limited experience.

Jimbo

Wally_in_Cincy
01-15-2003, 02:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimbo:</font><hr> .....My post probably only applies in Oklahoma where zoning for bars/clubs is very restrictive. Most of the zoned areas are leased by the vendors leaving few profitable locations available to the independent ownwer/operator. .....<hr /></blockquote>

Well that makes more sense now. Oklahoma...Geez...I was in OKC airport one Sat. afternoon. The barmaid says she can only serve me 3.2 beer but I can walk over to the restaurant and get whatever I want and carry it back /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Strange liquor laws...that's a thread in itself.

01-15-2003, 03:17 PM
Yes Wally, Oklahoma liquor laws have always been unique. Until around 1985 liquor by the drink was illegal. You brought you liquor with you to the bar with your name on the bottle and I charged you for the glass/water/coke or whatever and poured your liquor for you charging you for the setup but not the liquor. Today you can not buy package liquor on election day till 7pm when the polls close but you can walk into a bar and get liquor by the drink all day long. One of my favorites was in the late 60's, men had to be 21 to buy beer but women could buy it at age 18. Now that was fun asking your girlfriend to buy your booze for you! LOL

Jimbo