PDA

View Full Version : Tip Size



01-14-2003, 01:20 PM
I've been playing pool for 10 years and have been shooting with a Joss for 8 of those. I'm not sure how familar everyone is with Joss cues but their standard tip size is 13 1/4 not the 13 that most cues come with. I really like these cues and have just bought my 3rd Joss the other day and will not likely ever change.

My question is what do you think the advantages/disadvantages of the larger tip size? I've noticed that the power draw shot is slightly harder due to the fact that you can't cue as low on the cue ball but other than that I can't find any other disadvantages. Maybe I'm just use to it since I've been shooting with one so long.

I'm also wondering if anyone know of any Pros that shoot with a larger than 13 mm tip. I know of a few Pros that shoot with Joss cues but they all have their shafts & tips turned down to 13 or lower.

Thanks,

Phil

SpiderMan
01-14-2003, 04:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Phil in the UK:</font><hr> I've been playing pool for 10 years and have been shooting with a Joss for 8 of those. I'm not sure how familar everyone is with Joss cues but their standard tip size is 13 1/4 not the 13 that most cues come with. I really like these cues and have just bought my 3rd Joss the other day and will not likely ever change.

My question is what do you think the advantages/disadvantages of the larger tip size? I've noticed that the power draw shot is slightly harder due to the fact that you can't cue as low on the cue ball but other than that I can't find any other disadvantages. Maybe I'm just use to it since I've been shooting with one so long.

I'm also wondering if anyone know of any Pros that shoot with a larger than 13 mm tip. I know of a few Pros that shoot with Joss cues but they all have their shafts &amp; tips turned down to 13 or lower.

Thanks,

Phil <hr /></blockquote>

Phil,

There is a slight disadvantage on draw, as you note. This may be most noticeable when trying to "get under" a ball when shooting off the rail, you'll have to jack up more and this can affect accuracy. Also, the larger-diameter shaft will presumably have greater effective end mass, therefore you might expect that there will be a little more "cueball squirt" off-line when applying side english.

On the plus side, you are already used to the 13.25 so the correct squirt compensation is probably built into your brain. Also, I would expect that your tips will last longer because of the greater amount of material to absorb shock from impact.

SpiderMan

Tom_In_Cincy
01-14-2003, 05:15 PM
Phil.. maybe this will help.. its from the


Newsgroups: rec.sport.billiard

I just picked up a Camel 1999 player guide, and it lists the cues, weights,and tip diameters for most of the players listed. I was curious about the stats, so I just finished typing them in and computing some of them. Here's the
summary:

wt/oz tip/mm
------ ------
Means 19.340 12.799
Standard Deviations 0.604 0.299
Min 18.000 12.000
Max 21.250 13.500

The full data is at the end. Please excuse any name mispellings. I gave them the once over, but I could have missed some errors. A few of the cue specs were missing, so I included the names just in case anyone knows what they
use and they can fill them in. For example, I think Grady Mathews is using a Predator cue these days, but I don't know the weight. Also, I suspect some of the data may not be correct, but I didn't make any corrections in this list.
For example, two of the players using Predator cues gave two different tip diameters, 12 and 13, but I think all Predator tips are 12.8mm. Or maybe these guys have special shafts, I don't know. Anyway, what is listed is what is
in the book.

$.02 -Ron Shepard

************************************************** *********

Here's the full list, in tabbed format:

Last name First name Cue weight/oz tip/mm
Aguero Billy Rick Chudy 19 13
Andam Leonardo Price 19.5 13
Anderson William Hurricane 19 12.7
Aragon Aaron Schon 1 8.5 12
Archer Johnny Schon 20.5 12.75
Beckley Jeff Tad 20 13
Bernatchez Claude Predator 19.5 12
Blanda Billy Schon 19.75 12.75
Breedlove George McDermott 18.75 12.75
Brooks Ed Tim Scruggs 19 13
Bustamante Francisco Bear Custom 19.5 12.5
Calvert J.R. Falcon 18.4 13
Carter Jeff Meucci 19.25 12
Coltrain Mike Schon 19.5 12.5
Coulter Dennis Viking 19 13
Craig Stephen Schon 19.3 12.5
Crane Wade Mottey 19.75 12.5
Daulton Shannon Schon 20.4 12.75
Davenport Kim Sambodie[sic?] 19.5 12.75
DiLorenzo Tom Southwest 19.5 12.75
Dominguez Ernesto Tad 20 13
Ehrbar Jim Schon 20 13
Ellin Tony Meucci 18 12.5
Fix Greg Midwest Custom 19 13.25
Fleming Pat Skip Weston 19 13
Fletcher Jacque Meucci 19.5 13
Galloway Johnny Meucci 19.25 12.7
Garcia Jose Falcon 19.75 13
Garrahan Teddy Skip Weston 19 13
Green Nat S Southeast 19 13
Hall Cecil "Buddy" Lucasi 20 13
Harriman Danny Viking 19.5 12.75
Hatch Dennis Dan Dishaw 19.5 12.75
Hatch Greg Dan Dishaw 19.5 13
Hoa Tang Ed Presitt 19.5 12.5
Hopkins Allen Costa 19 12.9
Horsfall John Falcon 19.5 12.75
Howard David Meucci 19 13
Hubbart Larry Meucci 19.5 13
Hudson Robbie
Immonen Mika Longoni 19 13
Jones Jeremy Olivier 19.5 12.75
Kanov Garard Roger Allan 19 13
Karabatsos Tom Southwest 19.25 12.25
Kennedy Tommy Lambros
Kucharo Jon Schon 19.25 12.75
Lebron MIke 19.5 12
Luat Rodolfo Philippine 20 12.8
MacDonald Chris Sherm Custom 19 13
Martel Alain
Mathews Grady
Matlock David Kikel 19.5 12.75
McAninch Steve Gilbert 20 13
McNamara Raymond Black Boar 20 13
Medina Danny Olivier 19.3 13
Michaels George Cognoscenti 18.5 13
Mike Massey
Mizerak Steve Mizerak 21.25 13
Morycz Stanley Falcon 19 13
Parica Jose Olivier 19.75 13
Pierce Reed Meucci 19.25 13
Potier Paul Stout 19.6 13
Ragossnig Tobias Espiritu 19.7 13
Reid Jimmy Viking 19 13
Rempe James Meucci 18.5 13
Reyes Efres Meucci 21 12.5
Rimlinger Martin McDermott 21 13.5
Rinella Mike Meucci 19 13
Roberts Thomas Kady 19 12.75
Robles Tony Meucci 18.5 12.75
Salvas Luc Schon 19 12.5
Sambajon Santos Joe Porper 19 12.5
SanSouci George Lambros 19 12.25
Schultz Raymond McDaniels 18.75 12.75
Segal Andrew Schon 19.5 12.75
Smith David Huebler 21 13
Souquet Ralf Joss
Stephen Bill Joss 19.5 12
Strickland Earl Cuetec 19 13
Takahashi Kunihiko Mezz 19 13
Townsend Scotty
Tucker Joseph Predator 19 13
Ulrich Louis
Varner Nick Meucci 18.5 13
Vickery Howard Meucci 19.6
Watson Gerry Meucci 18.5 12.75
West Dallas
Wetch Jimmy Schon 19 13
Whitehead Randy Schuler 19.3 13
Wiggins Art Schon 19 13
Williams Charlie Schon 19 12.25
Wilson Mark Pechauer 18.5 12.75
Wiseman Ron Schon 19 12.75

Hopster
01-14-2003, 05:45 PM
I played with a Helmstetter 13mm for a long time. I have two shafts, recently i took one of them down to 12mm. I like the way it feels and plays. I am going to take the other one down to 12.5 mm, which i should have done the first time, cause once you take it off you cant put it back but you can always go lower. Just to experiment a little.
I myself like the feel of the thinner shaft.

L.S. Dennis
01-14-2003, 06:06 PM
Well
It seems that bigger is not always better. Jugging by list list shown above, 12.75 seems to be the averager of the good players. Mosconi played with a 13mm tip and a 20oz cue, that would be good enough for me.

Rod
01-14-2003, 09:20 PM
Phil,
I play with a 13 1/4 shaft. I don't agree power draw is more difficult though. I haven't had any problems. You can still hit just as low as you can with a 10 mm tip. You know as well as I you can only hit so low before a miscue. The larger size can easily go below that limit. It may be deceiving because the larger one is closer to the table, where the smaller is up off the table a bit more.

I like it because it's easier for me to see and hit center ball. It's also easier for me to guage the amount of english when necessary, and reduce unwanted english. And lastly I like the feel of a large shaft, even though I have short fingers. Having said that, playing with a 13mm is ok too. My shafts are of a conical taper, they keep getting bigger. Unlike the Joss shafts that are a straight taper for 13" or so. Most people hate shafts that large, but like you said, you just get use to them.

Popcorn
01-15-2003, 01:53 PM
I don't know where you heard that about Mosconi. To my knowledge he played with cues 19 to 19 1/2 ounce cue. His shaft was a 12 1/2. I even remember him commenting on how he could not see how some of the players could play with such a fat shaft. He was strange sometimes. He was playing this night and you could hear his cue making noise. A cuemaker there went over and asked to look at the cue. The butt cap was loose and the guy produced a knife with a screwdriver on it and fixed the cue. Mosconi seemed not to even notice the difference. I am telling you the cue sounded broken. I just found it strange for a guy who was usually so particular. When I was a kid he yelled at me because I was eating potato chips and the bag was making to much noise. I was right in the front row, he actually told my dad I ate like an animal. I think if it were anyone but Mosconi he might have gotten a smack. He made the room owner stop selling bagged snacks the rest of the night because they bothered him.

HOWARD
01-15-2003, 02:30 PM
Phil,

You are happy with what you have - then hold tight.

I like the smaller tip because of habit and a bit of physics
It would seem a smaller tip with the same speed stroke behind it would place more power into a smaller area in the contact point of the cb. Ergo more juice.

Howard

Eric.
01-15-2003, 02:38 PM
For what it's worth, Mike Massey uses a HUGE, soft tip on his trick shot cue. I'm guessing it's a 14mm tip.Does a large tip=more Inglese on the cue ball? If so, a smaller tip may give a little less unwanted English. Food for thought.

Eric

Wally_in_Cincy
01-15-2003, 02:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Phil,
I play with a 13 1/4 shaft. <hr /></blockquote>

You probably play with a custom cue, but is it even possible to purchase a production cue with a shaft in excess of 13mm? I don't recall seeing any.

TonyM
01-15-2003, 02:55 PM
"My question is what do you think the advantages/disadvantages of the larger tip size? I've noticed that the power draw shot is slightly harder due to the fact that you can't cue as low on the cue ball but other than that I can't find any other disadvantages."

Well Phil, I must question your contention that you cannot hit as low on the ball with a 13.25 mm tip! I have demonstrated power draw to students (who also believe this common myth) with 14.0 mm and even 15.0 mm tips! In fact, I can draw the ball equally well with tip sizes anywhere from (and in-between) 9.0 mm to 15.0 mm in diameter.

The reason is simple: The cue ball doesn't "know" what size tip it was struck with!

If you strike the cue ball at the same contact point and at the same speed with any tip size, you will get the exact same cue ball reaction.

Now, if you are saying that you cannot hit the ball low enough with a 13.25 mm tip because the bottom of the tip hits the cloth first, then I'm afraid that you are mistaken. Assuming a "normal" tip curvature (like an american nickel or dime, or 15.0mm to 18.0mm diameter hemi-sphere) you would need a tip diameter of over 16.0 mm in order to limit the amount of maximum back spin.

Take a striped pool ball, and set it so that the stripe is exactly horizontal. The lowest you can actually hit the ball is just a bit lower than the bottom edge of the stripe. This is about 1/2 way between the center of the ball and the bottom. Any lower than this and you are into mis-cue territory. I know it seems as if many players hit the ball much lower than this, but if you actually try and hit the ball lower than that (use a freshly chalked tip to allow you to see the chalk mark near the stripe) you will find that you will miscue. If you get down and look at someone when they place their tip so that it contacts the edge of the stripe at the tangent point, you will see that there is plenty of room between the cloth and the bottom of the shaft for a 13.25 mm tip.

Many top players cue much lower than this (Bustamante for example) but they don't actually hit the ball where they are cueing.

Now, so why do you have a problem getting power draw with the larger tip?

Well there are several possible reasons:

1) tip curvature - often, we tend to put a tip curvature on a cue so that it "looks right". I've found that this corresponds to a pleasing curvature to tip diameter RATIO. So smaller tips often get a bit smaller tip curvature than larger tips. It just looks "right" . A smaller tip curvature changes the spin vs. shaft displacement ratio (not the tip diameter btw). For a given shaft displacement away from center (in any direction) the smaller tip curvature will actually strike the cue ball slightly farther away from center.

Try adding a little bit more tip curvature, especially near the edge of the tip.

2) Visual effect. Tip diameter distorts our perception of where the actual contact point (between the tip/ball) is actually ocurring. Even though we know that the actual contact is ocurring closer to the "inside" edge of the tip and not the outside, our eyes are drawn to the reference of the outside edge of the tip in relation to the outside edge of the cue ball.

So the larger the tip diameter, the farther away from center it "appears" to our eyes for a given offset. This is the real reason (I believe) for the contention by many that a larger tip is "more forgiving", or limits accidental spin. We think that tip is farther away than it really is, so we unconsciously tend to keep the tip closer to center.

You just have to convince yourself that you can hit the ball farther away from center with the larger tip than you "think you can".

I think you will find, over time, that you can get just as much draw with a large tip, as you can with a small tip.

As to advantages and disadvantages of a larger tip?

Well as Spiderman pointed out, all else being equal, the larger the tip, the more cue ball squirt you will experience when using sidespin. This may or may not matter to you.

In general, I think it is easier to estimate your actual cue tip contact point with a smaller tip. Thus if your goal is to maximize your accuracy for estimating the tip/ball contact point, the smaller the tip the better. Imagine the case for a tip that went right down to a sharp point. Your estimation of the tip/ball contact point would be very good indeed! (you could see exactly where the tip would strike the ball). Now imagine a tip with a 25 mm diameter. It would be very difficult to estimate accurately just where the two spherical surfaces of the tip and ball would actually be in contact .

However, it is easier to estimate where the center of the ball is when using a larger tip. Although we often think we are just picking a spot on the cue ball and then try and hit it with our cue, in many cases, we actually use the reference of the outer edges of the shaft with respect to the cue ball to help us find the center of the ball.

Imagine the case of a tip with a 50.0 mm diameter! It would be very easy to see when we were aiming at center ball. We could easily see a thin band of white all around the tip of equal thickness.

So in effect, a big tip makes it easier to find center ball, while a small tip makes it easier to hit a specific point on the ball.

Thus tip size, like most other equipment choices is a compromise, best left up to each player to fine tune.

I think that your bridge-length and cueing accuracy will determine just how small a tip you can comfortably use.

Personally, I use a 12.0 mm tip for nine ball.

Cheers!

Tony

TonyM
01-15-2003, 03:03 PM
"It would seem a smaller tip with the same speed stroke behind it would place more power into a smaller area in the contact point of the cb. Ergo more juice.'

It may seem that way, but alas it is not the case at all. Assuming the same actual tip CURVATURE, the actual size of the contact patch is exactly the same regardless of tip curvature. What often happens with smaller tips is that players tend to put a smaller tip curvature on the tip because it just looks right. Thus smaller tips tend to have smaller tip curvatures. A smaller tip curvature will actually contact the ball slightly farther from center for given shaft displacement. Thus you get more spin for given shaft offset. But you can get the same amount of spin with a larger tip curvature, just by moving the tip a bit farther from center.

In fact, tip diameter has no effect whatsoever on the maximum (or minimum) amount of spin possible. It is based on the sliding coefficient of friction of the tip/chalk/ball interface and the actual tip/ball contact point.

Thus a player is free to chose any tip size they want, and not fear that they will limit what they can achieve with the cue ball.

But I do believe that it is easier to estimate the tip/ball contact point with a smaller tip.

The smaller curvature, and the better accuracy is the real reason for the extra spin perceived with a smaller tip imo, and not the actual tip size somehow creating more spin.

Tony
-12.0 mm tip user....

Rod
01-15-2003, 03:05 PM
Hi Wally,
Mine is a schon with some extra inlay. Their std size is 13mm. I had them make 3 shafts at 13 1/4. Almost any mfg will make you a larger shaft on request. You don't see them because few requests them. As the man said Joss is 13 1/4mm std. Predator is one exception.

TonyM
01-15-2003, 03:08 PM
"Mosconi played with a 13mm tip and a 20oz cue, that would be good enough for me."

Well perhaps, but Mosconi played straight pool, not 9 ball. And he played on slower cloth, with inferior balls (or at least different balls).

It would be intersting to see what he would use if he played the predominant modern 9 ball game on modern equipment (phenolic balls and Simonis cloth).

I suspect that he would favour something closer to today's common cue specs.

Tony
-or so I'm speculating....

silverbullet
01-15-2003, 05:59 PM
My blackheart is a 13.0 and it draws great. I have a 12.5 also which draws great. I do not get into all that about physics, just know that for me, they both are good at drawing. I guess it is personal. My backweighted sticks do not draw as well as say the blackheart. Is that because I am not stroking them right or something? dunno

bw

Harold Acosta
01-15-2003, 08:34 PM
Tom, many of the players that are listed with Meucci, had sponsorship with them at the time Camel printed their guide. Also bear in mind that the PBT was also sponsored by Meucci. These days many of them no longer play with Meucci's.

[b]<font color="blue">Billiards is a passionate sport for the mind and soul!</font color>
http://www.thebilliardstour.com/images/starscrash.gif

Tom_In_Cincy
01-15-2003, 09:07 PM
Thanks Harold.. for pointing that out.. but in the text there is a reference to "Camel 1999 player guide" and IIRC, even Eferen is listed as using a Meucci, and we all know that this has changed.. he plays with a cue made in his home country.

Many players have changed there cue since this 'player guide' was created.

The interesting part is the weight and tip dementions. That's why I posted it.

TonyM
01-16-2003, 03:44 PM
"even Eferen is listed as using a Meucci, and we all know that this has changed.. he plays with a cue made in his home country"

Don't look now, but he now plays with a Judd!

Tony
-don't blink or you'll miss something.....

Jon from MN
01-17-2003, 06:14 AM
A friend of mine used to draw the cb the length of the table with a broom stick hmmm how many mm is that! Jon

TonyM
01-18-2003, 01:48 AM
A whole bunch!

Tony
-I hope it had a leather tip on it, or the tale gets a little tall! Lol!