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The Teddy J
01-20-2003, 08:35 AM
Hi, everybody. Long (ago) time reader, first time poster.

I've got a few rules questions that just don't seem to be answered in the book that I hoped people could answer or point to in the book.

1. All solids go down before anyone establishes a group in 8-ball. Can the incoming player shoot the 8-ball? This seemed like a possibility as one of my players hit 4 solids in on the break, pocketed a solid on his next shot and scratched. The incoming player (who was absolutely terrible) scratched on his ball in hand and almost pocketed another solid. That would have been 6 down without establishing a group!!

2. A third party is asked to watch a hit. The hit was good, but the shooter commited another foul (he bumped a ball and the cueball hit the moving ball). Can the third party (or an official referee) call a foul even thought that's not the reason he was there in the first place?

3. With ball in hand, the player accidentally drops the cueball and it drops in a pocket. Is that a foul?

4. A ball is frozen to the cueball. The player shoots away, but the frozen ball moves because the cueball was actually holding it up. This happened to me when both balls were in the rack area where there is always less than level conditions. Is this a foul?

5. When performing a masse' shot, if one of the impeding balls is actually from your own group, and you accidentally touch it (but not the opponent's ball) when shooting the masse' (or jump shot), is that a foul?

Thanks in advance

Teddy

01-20-2003, 09:35 AM
Well, I'll try to answer what I know, and guess at the rest. Others feel free to correct me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
[ QUOTE ]
1. All solids go down before anyone establishes a group in 8-ball. Can the incoming player shoot the 8-ball? This seemed like a possibility as one of my players hit 4 solids in on the break, pocketed a solid on his next shot and scratched. The incoming player (who was absolutely terrible) scratched on his ball in hand and almost pocketed another solid. That would have been 6 down without establishing a group!!<hr /></blockquote>I'll have to say that in about 25 years of playing I've never seen this happen. But if I had to guess I would argue that since a group had not been established yet, the 8 is not legal, as the 8 can only be legally pocketed once a players group has been eliminated. Since neither player had a group in this rather contrived example, I'd say neither could drop the eight until somebody pockets a stripe to establish the grouping. But then again pocketing a stripe would leave the opponent on the eight, so theoretically each could play safe all night long and stalemate. Of course an A player would likely easily run out the remaining group and win since there are no interfering balls. A tough call, though. Haven't seen the rule books address this one.[ QUOTE ]
2. A third party is asked to watch a hit. The hit was good, but the shooter commited another foul (he bumped a ball and the cueball hit the moving ball). Can the third party (or an official referee) call a foul even thought that's not the reason he was there in the first place?<hr /></blockquote>Well, if an official referee is present, he/she can call all fouls. A foul is a foul. When it's a private game, it's usually up to the opponent to call foul. An honest upstanding pool player will always call fouls on himself though, if he is aware of it![ QUOTE ]
3. With ball in hand, the player accidentally drops the cueball and it drops in a pocket. Is that a foul?<hr /></blockquote>No, I don't see how it could be. Until the CB is placed on the table and struck by the cue tip, it is still in-hand. Now if it's dropped on the table and disturbs other object balls, then I would suggest THAT could be called as an interference foul.[ QUOTE ]
4. A ball is frozen to the cueball. The player shoots away, but the frozen ball moves because the cueball was actually holding it up. This happened to me when both balls were in the rack area where there is always less than level conditions. Is this a foul? <hr /></blockquote>Well in a professional, tournament environment, I would hope such leveling problems wouldn't occur. Generally, anytime you cause movement to an illegal ball (i.e. before you hit the lowest ball in 9-ball, or any of your group in 8-ball) it would be considered a foul regardless.[ QUOTE ]
5. When performing a masse' shot, if one of the impeding balls is actually from your own group, and you accidentally touch it (but not the opponent's ball) when shooting the masse' (or jump shot), is that a foul? <hr /></blockquote>Depends on the game. In most variations of 8-ball, you can hit any ball from your group. Even in most call-pocket games (non-APA), you only have to call the ball and pocket, not combos, caroms, banks, etc. Of course, house rules vary, but in both BCA and APA 8-ball this would be a legal shot.

David

Barbara
01-20-2003, 10:23 AM
This wouldn't be Teddy Garahan, would it?

Anyway, in response to your questions, this sounds suspiciously like a BCA referee review test, so RandyG, jump on in if I fail to answer correctly!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

1. The incoming player cannot shoot at the 8-ball until a group has been established. Sorry, but that's the way it is. The 8-ball is not a legal object ball until a group has been established and has been cleared from the table.

2. Any time a referee has been asked to watch a hit, any type of foul may be called, not just a possible hit foul.

3. No, it is not a foul. Just clumsiness.

4. Yes, unfortunately it is a foul on you.

5. Yes, that is also a foul. To accidently move any impeding balls regardless of whether they're yours or not is a foul.

Barbara

01-20-2003, 11:56 AM
[ QUOTE ]
5. Yes, that is also a foul. To accidently move any impeding balls regardless of whether they're yours or not is a foul.<hr /></blockquote>Really? How so, since in 8-ball you can hit any of your balls first and it's legal. Unless he was asking if the cue hit the other ball, but I didn't interpret it that way. I thought he was asking if when the masse was hit and the CB moved an OB from his group that was frozen to it. How is that any different than using one of your balls to combo or carom another in? The masse is just another shot, so it shouldn't be any different than any other frozen ball shot.

But then again maybe I read the question wrong. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

David

The Teddy J
01-20-2003, 12:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>Really? How so, since in 8-ball you can hit any of your balls first and it's legal. Unless he was asking if the cue hit the other ball, but I didn't interpret it that way. <hr /></blockquote>
Accidentally hitting it with the stick or hand or whatever. I think Barbara is correct. This was a particular situation where people almost came to blows over the rule. Maybe I should stay away from bar leagues?

Thanks,

Teddy

01-20-2003, 01:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote The Teddy J:</font><hr>
Accidentally hitting it with the stick or hand or whatever. I think Barbara is correct. This was a particular situation where people almost came to blows over the rule. Maybe I should stay away from bar leagues?<hr /></blockquote>Ah, I see now. Yes, in that case Barbara is correct. I must have read it wrong. It's a foul to hit any ball on the table with anything other than the CB.

Yes, bar rules are tricky. It pays to establish the rules beforehand, as house rules vary widely, as do individual's interpretations of them. In a friendly game (i.e. no money) I just let it go when somebody makes a stink about something. If it's a tournament or a money game, I expect rules to be nailed down and agreed upon up front (APA, BCA, local, whatever).

I once had a 9-ball game nearly come to blows because my opponent fouled and I took ball-in-hand for an easy combo on the 9 to win. My opponent insisted that "we don't play that way here, you can't combo the 9 after BIH." Yeah, whatever... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

David

Fred Agnir
01-20-2003, 02:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr>
5. Yes, that is also a foul. To accidently move any impeding balls regardless of whether they're yours or not is a foul.<hr /></blockquote>
Tricky question. My BCA Rulebook says:

"...foul if during an attempt to jump, curve or massť the cue ball over or around an impeding numbered ball that is not a legal object ball,the impeding ball moves"

One could argue that this rule implies that accidental movement of an impeding ball that is a legal object ball (i.e., one from the shooter's group) doesn't apply to this rule.

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks the BCA Rulebook needs more editing