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View Full Version : WPBA Tour and Casinos(long)



Eric.
01-21-2003, 03:15 PM
Just some miscellaneous ramblings...

Looks like the WPBA train only makes stops at casinos this year. Somebody mentioned it to me and it looks like 5 of the 6 tour stops are indeed at various casinos. I did find it a little ironic that the WPBA strongly frowns upon their members gambling /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I guess it's good that they don't have any chronic gamblers on tour. Now I'm curious about the decision. I'm sure it has something to do with money, like most things in life. I'm sure that the new "hosting fee" is a bit pricey for some of their traditional venues, so you have to "go with the green" and with the exception of Banks, where are you gonna find more money flowing? As a side note, a famous bank robber metioned that he robs banks because that's where all the money is!

I'm curious what your thought's are on this. How does this affect the younger crowd that wants to attend? Will it give Pool's image a step back to backroom gamblers? Will the player's ever get the Slot machine ringing out of their heads?

Enquiring minds wanna know.

Eric >work is slow today

Hopster
01-21-2003, 03:25 PM
Well as far as Nevada goes, if young people want to go to a match, they can. They just cant loiter inside the casinos. I guess having them in casinos gives people an excuse to get away for a awhile, instead of just going to see a match they can make a vacation out of it.
Then again i may be biased since ive worked in casinos for the last 22 years though.

Paul_Mon
01-22-2003, 05:41 AM
Eric,


One of the best tournaments I ever went to was the 2000 Joss East Finals at Turning Stone Casino in Verona NY. They had plenty of free parking, up close bleacher seating, Mike Massey trick shot shows each day and the best part was the price. They charged NOTHING. The casino's recognized that these players and fans would add revenue to their coffers. The only other time I attended a PBA (remember them) event at a casino was the 1996 8 ball finals at the Riviera Hotel and Casino in LasVegas. They offered all of the above except my VIP tickects cost $40 for the finals. Still a great deal, IMO. The Riviera brought out the finalists, Efren Reyes and Jeff Carter, escorted by 4 showgirls. They put on a great show.

Paul Mon

Ken
01-22-2003, 06:38 AM
Hi Paul, I went to the Joss invitational at Turning Stone. I think their management changed and someone decided that they were not getting much out of hosting a pool tournament. I think the International Challenge of Champions held here in CT contributes a lot to publicity for the casino but I've never spent a cent on gambling and find it hard even to order a beer there since it's so crowded.

Speaking of Turning Stone that is the first time I saw Charlie Williams play. In his match with Ginky he was never ready to play when it was his turn. He had to apply what looked like two different substances to his bridge hand and then wipe down his cue. He would make an elaborate show of approaching the shot and get down only to get back up again. He did that 5 or 10 times for nearly every shot. His loss to Ginky took about an hour more than alloted and set the schedule way off. I was so disgusted watching him that I just left and drove home.

Charlie Williams is a loose cannon and the biggest threat to the popularity of pool that exists today.
KenCT

Paul_Mon
01-22-2003, 08:10 AM
Ken,
I too remember how unbearable it was watching Charlie play. I don't know if he is still as slow. After Saturday nights matches I had the fortune of sitting down with Ginky to play some Blackjack. He was in the last position and knew what he was doing. One particular shoe we went through I had 11 winning hands, 2 pushes and only 1 losing hand. Ginky knew what to do in that "fatman" position. I made over $600 on that shoe alone, thanked Ginky, got up and went home. I had lost about $250 earlier in the evening by coming out between the matches that interested me.

Paul Mon~~~~just got the word that my Company is paying a 7.15% bonus this spring /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rich R.
01-22-2003, 08:17 AM
Ken, last year I sat through a match, at the D.C. Classic, between Charlie and Johnny Archer. They both got down and up so many times, I thought it was an exercise class. I can't tell you how long that match took, but I had to dust myself off when it was over. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Eric.
01-22-2003, 08:31 AM
I wasn't sure about the minor thing. I know in Atlantic City, unless it is in a separate room (like the Convention room of the hotel), it's "no kids allowed".

Eric.
01-22-2003, 08:38 AM
Actually, I not knocking the casino venue. I agree that for the fan, it is an inexpensive way to watch a Pro event (provided that you have some self control /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) And truth of the matter, I kinda like it myself. I'm curious to see if this will become the popular way of showcasing Pro pool and will this lead to more exposure/popularity. Either way, hat's off to the WPBA-trying anything is better than doing nothing.

Eric

Wally_in_Cincy
01-22-2003, 09:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> Ken, last year I sat through a match, at the D.C. Classic, between Charlie and Johnny Archer. They both got down and up so many times, I thought it was an exercise class. I can't tell you how long that match took, but I had to dust myself off when it was over. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif <hr /></blockquote>

LOL. Watching Johnny Archer play he's up and down so many times I thought I was watching a tape of a Catholic wedding. A guy on another board said he was up and down "like a hooker's knickers" /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Perk
01-22-2003, 10:52 AM
I like the casino venues...here in michigan, the last couple years they played at the Soaring Eagle, in Mount Pleasant....We also had amatuer tourneys running. It was really cool....For amatuer venues, we had a partners tourney there, where the entry was $40 a team, and they gave ya back $40 in chips....I liked that deal. Even thought I gave them back, I would have spent $40 of my own money in the casino anyways!

landshark1002000
01-22-2003, 12:17 PM
I think the whole anti-gambling/pool is bad for the family stuff is just PR nonsense. The manufactures have used this same campaign for a hundred years.
For an example of this (and a good laugh) read Robert Byrne's introdution to, "Byrne's Standard Book of Pool and Billiards". He comes right out with it. They want to sell home tables so they start a PR campaign knocking pool in the bars and taverns as immoral. And even if your kids are stupid AND lazy a home table will keep them out of the bars and away from unwanted influences (not to mention the HEALTH benefits). It's hysterical.

St Paul Gal
01-22-2003, 12:59 PM
We in the Upper Midwest, also can't get away from the Casino thing, even for the state tournaments. It's all about the $$$-added to the prize fund, and the casinos are the only sponsors willing to give it up.

I'm in the process of trying to get "non-sin" sponsors right now for MNBilliards.com promotions, but it's tough. One large foods company told me that "we would rather sponsor the KKK" (re:rather than pool players).

It's the cash, man. And until other big sponsors step up, or players are willing to settle for less, it's the casino's that will throw it in.

spg

01-22-2003, 01:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote St Paul Gal:</font><hr> One large foods company told me that "we would rather sponsor the KKK" (re:rather than pool players).<hr /></blockquote>You've GOT to be kidding me??? Now that is a sucky attitude. I'd be curious to know what company this is, in case I do business with them in any way. Sounds like a nasty letter and a boycott is in order, for saying something as incredibly stupid and insensitive as that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

01-22-2003, 01:11 PM
You said "I'm in the process of trying to get "non-sin" sponsors right now for MNBilliards.com promotions, but it's tough."

Please give me a break here, we are talking pool players right? Non-sin sponsers reads like a sound bite out of a liberal democrats handbook. Personally I am more likely to attend a billiard event at a casino than a non-casino venue. Start holding them in a church and see how many spectators show up!

Jimbo

St Paul Gal
01-22-2003, 04:12 PM
Sorry, used marketing lingo here...

By "non-sin", I mean not alcohol, tobacco, or gambling sponsorship.

The problem with sin sponsors is that it eliminates non-adult players from participation become of majority age issues. For exmaple, APA players have to be 21 because of alcohol and tobacco sponsorships (even if some of these were in the past).

We do have large tournaments at civic centers, not casinos, that draw huge. Doesn't always have to be in the dark smokey places, dude. Some of us like to play to play, not drink or gamble. And I know quite a few players just like that as well...

Maybe it's a Minnesota nice thing...

St Paul Gal
01-22-2003, 04:13 PM
As much as I'd love to, I can't say. It would betray a personal and professional confidence....

01-22-2003, 05:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote St Paul Gal:</font><hr> Sorry, used marketing lingo here...

By "non-sin", I mean not alcohol, tobacco, or gambling sponsorship.

This I already understood.

The problem with sin sponsors is that it eliminates non-adult players from participation become of majority age issues. For exmaple, APA players have to be 21 because of alcohol and tobacco sponsorships (even if some of these were in the past).

This seems odd to me. Seems like many other sports have "sin sponsors" and still allow players under 21 to participate.

We do have large tournaments at civic centers, not casinos, that draw huge. Doesn't always have to be in the dark smokey places, dude. Some of us like to play to play, not drink or gamble. And I know quite a few players just like that as well...

I agree but I have yet to see a smokey, dark casino.

Maybe it's a Minnesota nice thing... <hr /></blockquote>

Perhaps that is it, but perhaps being hypocritical when disparaging the sponsors you do have yet still taking their money. Is that Minnesota nice as well?

This is what bothered me most about your post. If I am unhappy with where my money came from I would not accept it rather than deride the source while keeping my hands out. This does not mean I think youngsters should be excluded from participating in any of the events. The future of the sport lies in their hands yet to insulate them from the pool world as it currently exists does them more harm than good.


Jimbo

St Paul Gal
01-23-2003, 12:45 AM
Seems as though you're being a bit argumentative for the sake of, but here we go...

I was not deriding the casinos. In fact, I thanked a marketing VP at Ho-Chunk Casino a few weeks back for supporting the sport.

In the beginning of this thread, I was offering an explanation as to why the WPBA events were being held at casinos, because those are the sponsors that are willing to throw up the kind of cash that players are looking for.

I am, however, disappointed that other major sponsors, who do not blink an eye at throwing big money, at say, golf, do not throw it at pool. (By the way, according to the most accredited sports participation research study in the past 5 years, billiards was the number 4 participation sport in the country, with golf being number six. There are 35 MILLION billiards enthusiasts in this country -- it is the number 1 non-athletic participation sport in the US.)

And as a marketing executive, I know that as long as pool has the undeserved image it has as a gamblers, ruffians, and drunk's game, that it will never get that money. And as long as tournaments on TV are always at casinos, that image keeps getting perpetuated. But casinos are the only ones willing to give the cash up... so it's a vicious circle.

And as long as that "non-sin" money doesn't follow, real pro pool, with a farm system, and a natural outlet for the great talent in this country, will not be possible. Just look at baseball, golf, football, basketball, etc. Who are their sponsors?

So go back to your casino, go back to your alcohol-ridden billiards places, revel in your "sin-sponsored" money, and for one minute think about what it would be like if US sponsors would spend money at pool like they do at golf. Or, like sponsors do in England over snooker, because it's seen as a "gentlemen's sport".

Or, you can spend so more time arguing with me on this post going, "Duh, I don't get it".

I however, have higher aspirations for this sport we all love -- like a real pro tour, on prime time TV, with real corporate sponsors, and the ability to walk into work, say I'm a pool player, and not get looked at like I'm a drunk. They don't think golfers are drunks...

But wait... golfers have other sponsors other than alcohol, tobacco, and casinos....hmmmmm....

spg

01-23-2003, 03:26 PM
Is there anywhere I can find the 2003 WPBA schedule?

snipershot
01-23-2003, 05:23 PM
It's pretty hard for young people to get interested in the game when they can't even attend the game live (and good look seeing much of it on T.V), on the other hand as you mentioned is the money part of it, these events are gonna be hosted by whoever can afford to dish out the green, it's a tough problem, any ideas out there on possible solutions?

Wally_in_Cincy
01-24-2003, 08:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SneakyPete:</font><hr> Is there anywhere I can find the 2003 WPBA schedule? <hr /></blockquote>

It's not on their website. Probably not finalized yet.

Eric.
01-24-2003, 09:53 AM
Mar. 5-9 Delta Classic Robinsville, MS
Mar. 21-23 Women's Pro Player Chamionship Valley Forge, PA
Mar. 26-30 San Diego Classic Alpine, CA
May 11-17 BCA Open 9-Ball Championship Las Vegas, NV
June 11-15 Midwest Classic Peoria, IL
Sep. 10-14 U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship Albuquerque, NM
Nov. 5-6 Tournament of Champions Mohegan Sun Casino, CT
Nov. 19-23 Cuetec Cues National 9-Ball Championship Lincoln City, OR


There is one more Tour Stop that hasn't been finalized yet. It should be around late summer/Fall.

Also, Las Vegas, Valley Forge and CT aren't Official WPBA stops.

Eric

fast_eddie_B
02-02-2003, 05:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Paul_Mon:</font><hr> Eric,


One of the best tournaments I ever went to was the 2000 Joss East Finals at Turning Stone Casino in Verona NY. They had plenty of free parking, up close bleacher seating, Mike Massey trick shot shows each day and the best part was the price. They charged NOTHING. The casino's recognized that these players and fans would add revenue to their coffers. The only other time I attended a PBA (remember them) event at a casino was the 1996 8 ball finals at the Riviera Hotel and Casino in LasVegas. They offered all of the above except my VIP tickects cost $40 for the finals. Still a great deal, IMO. The Riviera brought out the finalists, Efren Reyes and Jeff Carter, escorted by 4 showgirls. They put on a great show.

Paul Mon <hr /></blockquote>
yeah, i believe that's the last stop in the joss east tour, at the turning stone, i would also like to mention that it's on a indian reservation and there is no place to get a beer for miles, lol, i actually dated a chick who worked there when i lived in upstate ny.
What part of upstate ny are you from Paul?

Harold Acosta
02-02-2003, 08:11 PM
Three tournaments in March? Is this a typo or are they nuts?

[b]<font color="blue">Billiards is a passionate sport for the mind and soul!</font color>
http://www.thebilliardstour.com/images/starscrash.gif

Paul_Mon
02-03-2003, 05:43 AM
What part of upstate ny are you from Paul? <hr /></blockquote>


I live outside Rochester in the town of Greece. BTW, they (native americans) just opened another casino in Niagara Falls NY that does give away free drinks. Niagara Falls, US had to do something to offset the casino in Niagara Falls, Ontario. The Canadians were making a fortune being the only casino within 150 miles. The casino in Canada does not give away drinks, you have to buy them. Reportedly the US casino is drawing 10,000 per day. Hope they sponsor a pool tourney.

Paul Mon

Rich R.
02-03-2003, 05:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Harold Acosta:</font><hr> Three tournaments in March? Is this a typo or are they nuts? <hr /></blockquote>
Harold, the event at Valley Forge only involves 8 players from the WPBA. It is not a regular tournament stop.
http://www.superbilliardsexpo.com/womenspro.html

fast_eddie_B
02-03-2003, 12:09 PM
That was literally brilliant, paul gal, I wish everyone thought like that. Maybe, just maybe, someday ppl will learn to look at our sport as a sport and give it the valor it deserves and I too dream of the day when the best are actually paid like the best. I tell you what, you would see a great many more ppl come out of the woodwork for tournaments.
fast_eddie_B