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View Full Version : Any Gizmo For Spinning House Cue W/Drill Motor?



Sid_Vicious
01-21-2003, 09:57 PM
First, Thanks for the suggestion I got a while back for using a crutch tip to spin up shafts on my drill motor, that is a da#n good idea! Is there possibly an adaptation for this venture for spinning one piece cues? Seems like there might even be something to adapt right to the crutch tip,,,any keen inventions out there???sid

01-22-2003, 08:01 AM
Crutch tip? Explain please! That tidbit predates my time here on CCB, and sounds interesting. I searched the forum but couldn't turn up anything that sounds like this...

SpiderMan
01-22-2003, 10:20 AM
I can't remember who originally posted the idea, but my fuzzy memory says it might have been Fred. Anyway, Sid and I bought a couple of the things and mounted them on shafts that could be chucked in a drill. It turns out that the inside diameter of the crutch tip is just about perfect for gripping the joint end of a shaft and spinning it for tip shaping, shaft polishing, or whatever you might be wanting to do. Without the crutch tip, you'd have to use threaded adapters that matched the threads on each individual shaft type.

You'd think the shaft would wobble like crazy in this contraption, but it doesn't. You can actually spin it up and then take your hand completely away, and it will run true while floating unsupported except at the joint end.

Now we're wondering whether there may be a larger version of a similar product that we could adapt to work on house cues.

SpiderMan

ShayneinDayton
01-22-2003, 12:04 PM
Very interesting. Do you just lay the drill on a bench or
bunjee it down or maybe stick it in a vice? I guess if you wanted to go vertical you could sit in a chair and hold the drill between your feet.

I just bought a radial pin from Uni-Loc for the purpose of spinning the shafts on my Josey cues. I haven't worked out just how I'm going set this up yet. I would like learn to do my own tips, just because I know I'll take more care with
my shafts than the guy doing tips at the pool hall. The last time I had a tip installed, he came out and said that my ferrule had a slight wobble to it. At the same time he was digging through a first aid kit because something slipped and laid open his finger big time. Just sounded fishy to me and I thought it's time learn to do this myself.

Any advice you want to throw my way on equipment set-up would be great. I don't want to go and spend a bunch of money on a lathe just to change my own tips. I'd like to keep the set-up under $100. I'm very confident that I can do a good tip install. I'm petty detail oriented. I assemble all my race engines myself, which takes a lot of patience and attention to detail (my new engine should make over 700 hp). Of course I'll practice first on some cheap cues.

thanks
Shayne

Fred Agnir
01-22-2003, 12:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> I can't remember who originally posted the idea, but my fuzzy memory says it might have been Fred. <hr /></blockquote>
I'd love to take credit, but it wasn't me.

Fred &lt;~~~ seeking out a crutch

L.S. Dennis
01-22-2003, 12:20 PM
I used to use the electric drill method before I got my Sears wood lathe which I converted to do cues.
The best way to use a drill is to put it in a vice, no doubt. Other than that assuming you have the proper joint pins necessary to fit your shaft everything becomes a bit of trial and error. Definetly doable with a little patience.
Doing a house cue is altogether another story, I'm not sure how this could be done readily.

You'll surely want to experiment with cheaps shafts at first though.
Good Luck!

Paul_Mon
01-22-2003, 12:30 PM
Sid,
Have you tried the two window fan method?. The reversible ones found at Walmart, Kmart, etc. Just buy two of them set them opposite each other with the guards removed. Jam the cue between the two centers on the fan and turn one on forward and the other reversed. Works real good except for all the sawdust blowing around.

Paul Mon~~~couldn't resist

SpiderMan
01-22-2003, 01:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ShayneinDayton:</font><hr> Very interesting. Do you just lay the drill on a bench or
bunjee it down or maybe stick it in a vice? I guess if you wanted to go vertical you could sit in a chair and hold the drill between your feet.<hr /></blockquote>

At home, I put the drill on the floor and trigger it with my big toe. At the pool hall, I lay it on the bar and get a helper as triggerman.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ShayneinDayton:</font><hr> I just bought a radial pin from Uni-Loc for the purpose of spinning the shafts on my Josey cues. I haven't worked out just how I'm going set this up yet. I would like learn to do my own tips, just because I know I'll take more care with
my shafts than the guy doing tips at the pool hall. <hr /></blockquote>

You must be very careful, develop a process that works (watch how other guys do it), and follow the process over and over. If you want to change the process and try something new, try it on your own equipment first and give it a thorough testing. I'm actually more careful working on someone else's cue than on my own.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ShayneinDayton:</font><hr>The last time I had a tip installed, he came out and said that my ferrule had a slight wobble to it. At the same time he was digging through a first aid kit because something slipped and laid open his finger big time. Just sounded fishy to me and I thought it's time learn to do this myself.

Any advice you want to throw my way on equipment set-up would be great. I don't want to go and spend a bunch of money on a lathe just to change my own tips. I'd like to keep the set-up under $100. I'm very confident that I can do a good tip install. I'm petty detail oriented. <hr /></blockquote>

You can do this yourself. You can do it under $100, assuming that you already have power tools and hand tools, and only need some specialty stuff. But, in order to do it well, you will need to do it many times to develop a process and procedure you trust. I did my own tips for several years before starting to do others. Luckily I already had a lot of tools such as lathes, drills, etc, to support my motorcycle and gun hobbies, so I didn't need to buy much.

SpiderMan

ShayneinDayton
01-22-2003, 03:24 PM
Thanks Spiderman.

L.S. Dennis
01-22-2003, 05:53 PM
Iwould not attempt putting on a ferrule unless you have access to a lathe. I know there are some small home machines that can be bought to do this but if you want a good professional job done you need a lathe. Having a ferrule put on is not that expensive, maybe 30 or 35 dollars or so. I would have that done, and do the tips yourself. With a little practice they should be coming out pretty good in no time!
Good luck
Dennis

SpiderMan
01-23-2003, 01:05 AM
Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words ..... here's a couple thousand!

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/funkychateau/vwp?.dir=/Yahoo!+Photo+Album&amp;.src=ph&amp;.dnm=Crutch+Tool+1.jpg&amp; .view=t&amp;.done

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/funkychateau/vwp?.dir=/Yahoo!+Photo+Album&amp;.src=ph&amp;.dnm=Crutch+Tool+2.jpg&amp; .view=t&amp;.done

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> Crutch tip? Explain please! That tidbit predates my time here on CCB, and sounds interesting. I searched the forum but couldn't turn up anything that sounds like this... <hr /></blockquote>

ShayneinDayton
01-23-2003, 07:31 AM
I hear you Dennis, thanks. If I ever needed a ferrule installed I would just send it back to Mr. Josey.
Shayne

01-23-2003, 09:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words ..... here's a couple thousand!<hr /></blockquote>Ahhh, I see now. Thanks for the visual, Spidey! I was having the hardest time visualizing how to mount a rubber crutch tip into a drill chuck.

So I take it you fashioned an arbor out of wood and epoxied it to the crutch tip? Wasn't it difficult to align properly -- I mean, a teeny bit off-balance and you'll get a wobble from hell!

/me goes off to scrounge up a crutch tip...

David

SpiderMan
01-23-2003, 10:01 AM
I was very careful to align it, but when I used it I found that it is probably less critical than I thought. Even if I put the shaft in crooked, it straightens itself out as soon as it spins up to speed. It's sort of self-correcting, like a gyroscope. Once it's spinning, I can take my hand completely away from the shaft and hold only the drill, and the shaft will spin wobble-free unsupported.

SpiderMan

L.S. Dennis
01-23-2003, 10:17 AM
There is another way to accomplish this without use the device that spiderman came up with. That is to simply buy or order an extra joint pin (whatever your shaft size is ) and simply put that in the drill. And even better yet is once you get the joint pin (which will be threaded from one end to the other) is to go down to your local machine shop and have them put it on a lathe and cut off the threads on one half of it, thereby leaving it smooth on the half that will go in the chuck of your electric drill. I think you'll find this far better and more accuarate.

Sid_Vicious
01-23-2003, 10:18 AM
He's right, my crutch tip adapter aligns rather nicely by itself after it spins up. I'd imagine that what Spiderman and I have now will always be the "industrial strength model" of it's species, thanks the SM's enginuity. I'd be interested in making another one for the mobile toolbox, and try doing a very simple, fast modification w/o the dowel. You ready to invest another $2.50 in a tip Spiderman???sid

SpiderMan
01-23-2003, 11:03 AM
Actually, a joint pin alone doesn't work very well. The straight alignment of the cue shaft to the matching butt is maintained by the parallel surfaces of the joint faces, not by any precise centering and perpendicularity of the screw. The main function of the joint pin (screw) is just to pull the two flat surfaces (shaft and butt) together and hold them there.

Some may run true, but you'll find that many shafts will wobble like crazy when driven by only a joint pin. And it will be held fixed in that mis-alignment, unlike the crutch-tip tool which is a flexible enough mounting to let the assembly stabilize gyroscopically.

There is another problem with using a joint screw that could actually damage your shaft - with nothing to stop it from screwing in deeply, it can actually bottom out against wood at the bottom of the insert, and try to force the insert out of the shaft joint.

An "outside gripper" avoids these problems, and also is not dependent on matching the joint threads. Did you know that the "standard" 5/16-14 joint pin from Atlas will fit a Schon shaft but not a Jacoby? Both are advertised as 5/16-14 thread, but the thread clearances are different enough that it won't work.

SpiderMan

L.S. Dennis
01-23-2003, 11:23 AM
Whetever seems to work I suppose for you I suppose will be the best method to employ. I have joint pins of 3/8 10 5/6 14 and 5/6 18 which I've used in conjuction with some live centers and they've worked on all the cues that I have have done for people. Some shafts do wobble a bit but others are perfectly straight. Some shafts actually straighten out after being spun for a while on my lathe.

All this talk is going to put cue repair people out of business! Oh well

Chris Cass
01-23-2003, 12:02 PM
Finally it sinks in. Man, I hate being this slow. The joint collar end of the shaft fits in there right? That looks right. It's a big thing isn't it? I could care less if it works. I find it's a lot cheaper than buying all those pins.

Now, my only question is what could I use on the other end or the tip of the shaft for free flowing? Just for shaft stability. Or does the shaft become worry free from flying out of there?

C.C.

Sid_Vicious
01-23-2003, 12:32 PM
The key word I read was "lathe." Most people have drill motors but a lathe is rare for the most part. JMO...sid

Rod
01-23-2003, 01:04 PM
Hi Spidey,
I checked my Joss shaft on the Schon, goes on a little loose but it aligns near perfect. The Schon shaft however will not fit the Joss, it gets tight after 2 or 3 threads. The thread clearance is definately different.

In the picture I see what looks to be a wooden dowel inserted where the crutch would normally go? Did you thread the center for the metal pin, or is that glued? Is that dowell glued in the rubber?

Without using it I can tell it would be self centering for the shaft and probably little if any wobble. I have a set of pins I use now but I bent my 5/16 x 14 pin. Don't ask. I straightened it but it is off a fraction. I use a variable speed Dremmel with a small sanding drum at about 5000 rpm, who's counting. Hold the shaft with one hand and ease the Dremmel in to trim the side. Then I change position and radius the tip. I finish with a 1" wide nail board file from walgreens, they are made in several grits with the pink being very fine.

I don't know how everyone else does this but sanding a 14mm tip down flush with the ferrule just takes to much time. That's why the dremmel. Of course what is most important to me is never touch the ferrule.

I can figure it out but let me know the best way you've found to set up the Arbor and that dowel on the crutch end.
Thanks, Rod

ShayneinDayton
01-23-2003, 01:20 PM
OK, last night I chucked up my pin in a drill and attached a shaft. I sat in a chair and held the drill between my feet and supported the ferrule end with my hand. The shaft did have a slight wobble, but nothing I couldn't control. While spinning the shaft, I rubbed up and down with a lint-free paper towel with some rubbing alcohol on it. This did very well in cleaning off the chalk dust. I then used some fine micro-burnishing film for about 10 seconds. This really shined it up and made it very smooth. Next I used a dry paper towel for about two minutes and let a little warmth build up. Then I put some Cue Silk on the paper towel and went at it for about another 60 seconds. I was very pleased with the turn-out. I've never been able to get it this clean and smooth by hand.

I'm not sure about doing a tip install like this as I'm not sure how to cut the tip flush with the ferrule. Is there a simple tool that dose this or do you just very carefully use a razor blade.

Any comments or criticisms are welcome

Shayne

Paul_Mon
01-23-2003, 01:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ShayneinDayton:</font><hr> Next I used a dry paper towel for about two minutes and let a little warmth build up. Then I put some Cue Silk on the paper towel and went at it for about another 60 seconds. I was very pleased with the turn-out.
Any comments or criticisms are welcome

Shayne <hr /></blockquote>

Shayne,
Next time try waxed paper instead of Cue Silk. I burnish with leather, then put a small piece of waxed paper inside the leather, then finish up with just the leather.

Paul Mon

SpiderMan
01-23-2003, 01:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ShayneinDayton:</font><hr>
I'm not sure about doing a tip install like this as I'm not sure how to cut the tip flush with the ferrule. Is there a simple tool that dose this or do you just very carefully use a razor blade.

Any comments or criticisms are welcome

Shayne <hr /></blockquote>

Shayne,

There are many ways to do the finish-up, depending on the available tools and time. If you're only doing your own tips, time should not be a much of a factor. Typical for me now is to pre-trim in my Willard and finish up with a sharp blade from a box-cutter while spinning in the crutch tool or lathe (depending on whether I'm home or "out"). Then I do the final shaping with a little sandpaper. If no Willard, you do it from the start with the blade, which is used perpendicular to the spinning tip, like a scraper. When you get near to finished size, reposition the blade as a shaver rather than scraper (really need a video to explain this) and slide it up the ferrule to make the base of the tip perfectly flush. Then finish the scraping-to-size and polish up with sandpaper. Then burnish and treat the sidewalls, shape the crown.

SpiderMan

Rod
01-23-2003, 02:06 PM
OH yea one more thing. Where do you get this bumper. Look under Crutch supply? Or do you just go out and rip one off of the first handicapped person that sets their crutch aside? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Chris Cass
01-23-2003, 02:18 PM
My goodness Rod,

We're so alike it's frighting. hahahahha I swear I do it the same exact way.

Regards,

C.C.

SpiderMan
01-23-2003, 02:58 PM
Rod,

You pretty much figured it out from the picture. Here's how I built it:

First of all, I didn't steal the tips off some old lady's walker. You can buy them as spare crutch parts at large drugstores. Sid and I got a pair for $5 and I made us each a tool from them.

I was initially very concerned about perfect straightness and centering, so I probably went to more trouble than necessary. It turns out that even if the shaft is inserted crooked it will stabilize gyroscopically after it spins up, because the tool is flexible rubber.

The piece of wood is a round plug I cut from a board using a hole saw. The hole saw uses a drill bit for centering, so this provided a hole in the center.

Next I took a 5/16 x 18 tap, and threaded the hole in the wooden disk. The drive pin is a 5/16 x 18 bolt, with the head cut off. I screwed and epoxied it into the threaded hole in the wooden disk.

After the glue set up, I chucked the drive pin up in my lathe and noticed that the wooden disk did not run perfectly true, so I turned off a little bit of wood on the surface where I intended to attach the crutch foot.

The bottom of the crutch foot, to which I would be attaching the wooden disk, was not flat. Instead it had deep annular ridges for traction. I looked around the shop until I found a piece of round pipe (1/2" electrical conduit), shoved this into the other end of the crutch foot, and chucked this up in my lathe. While this was turning, I used a sharp knife to slice off the traction ridges and produce a flat bottom to the crutch foot that was perpendicular to the conduit inserted in the other end.

Finally, I took the drive pin / wooden disk combination and put it in my tailstock using a 3-jaw drill chuck. I then put some epoxy on the crutch foot, and used the tailstock's drilling feed to bring the two halves together. The result was that the drive pin is now perfectly aligned with the center of the hole in the crutch foot (where the shaft will eventually fit).

As I said, you could probably get satisfactory alignment without a lathe or all the trouble, but I didn't know that at the time. It's really non-critical.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
01-23-2003, 03:07 PM
I told you, you guys are brothers.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> My goodness Rod,

We're so alike it's frighting. hahahahha I swear I do it the same exact way.

Regards,

C.C. <hr /></blockquote>

Rod
01-23-2003, 03:09 PM
Chris,
That is a little scary. Off the subject NPR. I visited Mom and Dad in Kansas and stayed with them for a while. Dad bought a 1933 Model A John Deer tractor. It was the same as our first tractor on the farm. He still owned the farm. He needed the tractor to cut brush and clear off the land so it could be put up for sale.

Just one problem, the head was cracked. We found one that had been welded. My back ground is automotive so I changed the head, big old thing for two cylinders. I had to use the old valves and springs. The Valves were hammered from the seat in the head. I chucked the valves in a 1/2" drill then use a single cut file held at 45 degrees to finish. The seats were ok so I just hand lapped in the valves. To make an already long story short. That old thing run great. I cut down brush and pulled some old dead trees over the next few weeks. I think he sold it for 5 or $600 a few months later. I just thought of that because of the farmer engineering it takes sometimes to do a project without the right tools. LOL BTW that old tractor was a hand start by turning the flywheel.

This is a picture of a Model B but they looked much the same. Ok folks no more farm stories. LOL

http://www.retiredtractors.com/jpg/Plow37.jpg

Rod
01-23-2003, 03:20 PM
Thanks Spidey,
I figured a hole saw would be needed. Didn't know about the ridges but no big deal. I can center it just using a drill by hand, won't need the dial indicator. LOL
Thanks I'll leave the old ladies alone and check out Osco or similar.

Chris Cass
01-24-2003, 12:23 AM
Hi Rod,

$3.99 for two at Walgreens. Called today.

Regards,

C.C.~~safer to buy them. Those old ladies are tough man.

Rod
01-24-2003, 01:08 AM
Chris,
I called Osco, they have them to. I never checked the price though. Ya I agree I'll leave the old gals alone.

heater451
02-05-2003, 02:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> I can't remember who originally posted the idea, but my fuzzy memory says it might have been Fred.<hr /></blockquote>I thought that Stickman was the one who suggested it, but I don't really recall positively. . . .
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>. . .Now we're wondering whether there may be a larger version of a similar product that we could adapt to work on house cues.<hr /></blockquote>I was just in Home Depot, and saw a similar object--except to fit on table legs, I think. The things were marked 1-1/4" (32mm), and I've never miked the butt of a stick, so I don't know if it's even close, but it might work with a leather sleve (if necessary). They were under $3 for a two-pack.



======================

Rod
02-05-2003, 03:14 PM
Heater,
Actually I believe it was Qguy that come up with the idea.
1 1/4" is pretty close for a house cue, some are that size and would not fit tight enough. While others are larger. That is a good idea. Some house cues are so warped though it might be a real problem.

Rod

Sid_Vicious
02-05-2003, 03:22 PM
Something tells me that there's a very plain and simple article out there that will work. I wondered about getting pipe insulation(the rubber kind) with a general inside dimension under the size of say a Huebler, and see if it wouldn't snug the butt of a variety cues well enough. Even if it is loose, you should be able to clamp it with a hose clamp for no more stress than we are talking about for a tip shaping. Adapting it to the drill is easier after seeing how the crutch tip functions, heck the crutch tip may even sleeve inside the insulation on the drill end, never know until you actually try. I've seen this stuff(insulation) around the workplace in the past, so I know it does exist....sid