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silverbullet
01-25-2003, 09:14 AM
In apa here, it appeared to me that the guys get bumped up at a lower w/L percentage than the women especially to become a sl5 to sl7.I am not talking about sl2 becoming sl3 or sl4 although that it may be a little bit true to become a sl4 , but to me it seemed that the gap in wl% required for women vs men becomes progressive wider as the sl goes up. I have asked several apa 7 men about that including ww. I asked one of the two sl 7 women about this too .

The men say that this is nationwide and a marketing decision made by the entire apa. I think that this is a sexist thing but ww and other seven men I have talked to say it is marketing; ie-the more women they can get, the more popular pool is and that means keeping the women down and promoting the men to sl5-sl7 quickly so that they will have to break off and make more teams.So they reportedly attract more men by having women. According to a certain unamed 7, the majority of the women do not mind being sl 2-3. He says they do not think like me, do not have the drive to become good [no matter how long it takes]ie take classes, lessons, practice 2 hours a day etc...

From my perspective as a woman, there is this good ole boy, women are weaker,fragile etc and need a real man to take care of them grr so are allowed to play lower sl than men so that the poor things will not lose and hurt their little feelings. double grrr. gag and so forth.

From a female and somewhat radical women lib type of view, I feel that keeping the women down feeds the egos of the men and perpetuates this good ole boy sexist attitude.

Now do not feed me this bullcrap about more men being good than women. We are talking about relative percents, w/l etc and about women who are good and do not get promoted with the same w/l as many men.

If you want to take this sexism one step further, in our qualifyer tournaments for Vegas, all sl2 men become sl3s, they are not allowed to be an sl2 no matter how bad they are, but the sl women 2s are allowed to stay 2s.

Now, I will probably get beat up pretty bad about presenting such a controversial topic /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif, but this has been bothering me for a long time. There are not enough high sl women here to ask how they feel, but I know that there are many good women on the ccb, and also men, both of whom have been in league play for a long time.

So without debating the number of good pro men vs women, cuz that has been rehashed over and over, I do wonder what people here think about the difficulty women have in going up to the higher sl.

On a personal note, this is not currently a problem for me but if it is indeed a real problem, I may eventually be faced with a decision.


Laura

Wally_in_Cincy
01-25-2003, 10:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote silverbullet:</font><hr> In apa here, it appeared to me that the guys get bumped up at a lower w/L percentage than the women especially to become a sl5 to sl7.I am not talking about sl2 becoming sl3 or sl4 although that it may be a little bit true to become a sl4 , but to me it seemed that the gap in wl% required for women vs men becomes progressive wider as the sl goes up. I have asked several apa 7 men about that including ww. I asked one of the two sl 7 women about this too .

The men say that this is nationwide and a marketing decision made by the entire apa.

<font color="blue">I'm afraid you are wrong. The APA handicap system is gender-neutral. The fact is, even if a woman has a high winning percentage, they generally have more innings than men, which tends to keep their s/l down. </font color>

it is marketing; ie-the more women they can get, the more popular pool is and that means keeping the women down and promoting the men to sl5-sl7 quickly so that they will have to break off and make more teams.So they reportedly attract more men by having women.

<font color="blue">I really don't think so. </font color>

According to a certain unamed 7, the majority of the women do not mind being sl 2-3.

<font color="blue">Actually the majority of the men don't mind being at a lower skill level. That's better than being overrated. Now there are guys who want to be a 5,6, or 7 just to feed their ego. But when they get there they are frequently sorry because they have to win more games and they're expected to beat ever tougher opponents.</font color>

If you want to take this sexism one step further, in our qualifyer tournaments for Vegas, all sl2 men become sl3s, they are not allowed to be an sl2 no matter how bad they are, but the sl women 2s are allowed to stay 2s.

<font color="blue">I didn't think a man could ever be a 2. Men rank from 3 to 7, women from 2 to 7. Hell if I was a male 2 I think I would take up golf. </font color>

On a personal note, this is not currently a problem for me but if it is indeed a real problem, I may eventually be faced with a decision.

<font color="blue">You're threatening to quit because your s/l doesn't go up. Well I guess there's a first time for everything. </font color><hr /></blockquote>


<font color="blue">Actually I have seen the opposite of this sometimes. A good female player who plays exclusively on an all-female team tends to have a high winning percentage. So their s/l will go up. However if they also played in the open division against men and women their winning % would be lower so their s/l would tend to go down. </font color>

silverbullet
01-25-2003, 10:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
According to a certain unamed 7, the majority of the women do not mind being sl 2-3.

<font color="blue">Actually the majority of the men don't mind being at a lower skill level. That's better than being overrated. Now there are guys who want to be a 5,6, or 7 just to feed their ego. But when they get there they are frequently sorry because they have to win more games and they're expected to beat ever tougher opponents.</font color>

If you want to take this sexism one step further, in our qualifyer tournaments for Vegas, all sl2 men become sl3s, they are not allowed to be an sl2 no matter how bad they are, but the sl women 2s are allowed to stay 2s.

<font color="blue">I didn't think a man could ever be a 2. Men rank from 3 to 7, women from 2 to 7. Hell if I was a male 2 I think I would take up golf. </font color>
[ QUOTE ]


Think about it. Why is it okay for a women to be a two and not a man? Men can be beginners too. I just played one two weeks ago. He had only been playing for a session so was not experienced. Why should he have to be a three if he has the skill of a two just because he is a certain sex.

Actually many good 2-3 can be kept down for a long time through handicap management ie playing them against higher sl so they wont go up and then they win for the team in the tournament. I have seen them do this to lots of players, but more women than men, to be honest. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

bw

Wally_in_Cincy
01-25-2003, 10:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote silverbullet:</font><hr>
Think about it. Why is it okay for a women to be a two and not a man? Men can be beginners too. I just played one two weeks ago. He had only been playing for a session so was not experienced. Why should he have to be a three if he has the skill of a two just because he is a certain sex.

<font color="red">Hmmm... I agree. I have seen guys who should be a 2. </font color>

Actually many good 2-3 can be kept down for a long time through handicap management ie playing them against higher sl so they wont go up and then they win for the team in the tournament. I have seen them do this to lots of players, but more women than men, to be honest. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

<font color="red">It happens to both men and women. It's just a part of APA that probably will never change.

If they play far above their s/l in the tournament the team is subject to disqualification.
</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Rich R.
01-25-2003, 11:13 AM
I believe the APA handicap system is gender neutral.

Men can be SL-2's as well as women. Although the men start out at a higher level than women start, they can go down based on performance. I have seen men SL-2's, they just don't stay SL-2's for long, because they improve. I have seen some men stay at SL-3 for a very long time. They are once a week casual players, interested more in the social aspects of the league, rather than in improving their pool game. There is nothing wrong with that.

Most of the women I have seen, that stay at SL-2, stay there because they do not improve. Others, fight to keep their low rating. I personally think that is wrong.

If a team captain is continually playing SL-2's agains high rated players, in order to keep them at a SL-2, some one should talk to that captain. It is no fun for a player to lose all of the time,without much of a chance to win. However, what he is doing, is not against any rule that I know of. If I was that player, I would talk to the captain and request more even matchups. If that didn't work, I would look for a new team for the next session.

Wally_in_Cincy
01-25-2003, 11:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> I believe the APA handicap system is gender neutral.

Men can be SL-2's as well as women. Although the men start out at a higher level than women start, they can go down based on performance. I have seen men SL-2's, they just don't stay SL-2's for long, because they improve<hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Rich, I didn't know that. I guess because I had never seen one I assumed that they did not exist. Kinda like Bigfoot /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee
01-25-2003, 11:43 AM
Laura...I agree with what both Wally and Rich said. You know I was an APA league operator (and the #1 L.O. in the country, as a rookie, in 1992) for four years. There is NO such attempt to manipulate the "system" as you are describing, regardless of what other players in your area might think. The MD APA organization is the largest in the country, and Terry Justice would NEVER allow that to happen.
He has over 80,000 players in your area, and maintains, imo, a very high integrity. I could be wrong, as I have been out of the APA for many years...but I have lots of friends who are still L.O.'s (including Terry), and I believe I would know if there were some large-scale effort to "adjust" skill levels by gender. JMO

Scott

Rich R.
01-25-2003, 11:51 AM
Scott, I believe Laura plays in the APA area run by Lee Tiani. That area is almost as large as the one you mentioned, but it covers a portion of Maryland, the District of Columbia and Northern Virginia.

I am near the boarder of the two areas and have played on both.

Scott Lee
01-25-2003, 12:00 PM
Rich...You may be right. Terry Justice and his brother originally owned ALL of that territory, and developed it. He has since sold off some of his league area to other people, but I believe he still has over 1000 teams himself, making him the #1 league operator in the APA system...and a heck of nice guy besides.

Scott

Rich R.
01-25-2003, 03:36 PM
Scott, the area operated by Terry Justice is made up of the larger portion of Maryland and a small portion of West Virginia. I'm not sure if it extends into Delaware and Pennsylvania. According to his website, it is the largest local pool league, with approximately 1300 teams.
Mr. Tiani's area has an additional 500 teams.
I guess that makes this a pretty hot area for the APA and may be why the have held their U.S. Amateur Championship in this area for the last three years. The latest winner of that event is from this area.
It also makes for some very strong competition on league nights. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

silverbullet
01-25-2003, 05:01 PM
I cannot prove anything and I can only give my opinion about motives just like the sevens I talked to can only give their opinion. I can site a couple of examples, however. There are others that seem that way but I do not know the numbers.

A three on our team. Has more than 50% w/l. Has beaten a number of sl4-5 players. Average innings 4-6 including safeties. She does 1-2 safeties a game unless she has a run. She is approximately 80% on long shots and knows some shape. Does not jump, masse or kick. Occasionally banks.

An sl6 woman. Was beating everybody she played. wl above 70% before the lo finally let her be a 7.

There are more examples that the 7s I talked to know about. I have seen a few more.

bw

ps- if any of the los were holding women back or making people a seven too fast to generate more teams and more money, do you really they would be dumb enuff to admit it?

01-25-2003, 05:28 PM
Just out of curiosity is this based on fact or conspiricy theory? Do you believe in Alien Life Forms?

silverbullet
01-25-2003, 05:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote A.L.F:</font><hr> Just out of curiosity is this based on fact or conspiricy theory? Do you believe in Alien Life Forms? <hr /></blockquote>

Oh mg. Are you yapping wolf email addie yapyap@yap.com? /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Oh absolutely I believe I believe....

bw

Tom_In_Cincy
01-25-2003, 08:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
ps- if any of the los were holding women back or making people a seven too fast to generate more teams and more money, do you really they would be dumb enuff to admit it? <hr /></blockquote>

Would you mind explaining how your above statement "Generates more money and TEAMS" for a LO?

I am really curious.

01-25-2003, 08:44 PM

Tom_In_Cincy
01-25-2003, 08:51 PM
Are you saying this is done intentionally? How can you possibly prove this?

Do you really think that a LO of more than 1000 teams.. holds players skill level back to keep or gain more players?

What happens when a sl/3 starts playing consistantly like a sl/4? don't you think the other teams will notice and bring it to the LO's attention?

Sounds like you are unhappy about something and not letting the LO know about it.. I could be wrong.. its been a few hours since my last mistake.. just ask my wife..

silverbullet
01-25-2003, 09:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
ps- if any of the los were holding women back or making people a seven too fast to generate more teams and more money, do you really they would be dumb enuff to admit it? <hr /></blockquote>

Would you mind explaining how your above statement "Generates more money and TEAMS" for a LO?

I am really curious.
<hr /></blockquote>

There are two reasons a captain wants women. 1) It keeps the men happy. 2) They are mostly 2 and 3 and that allows the 6-7 sl guys to play and still meet the 23 pt rule.

Since women in general tend to not be attracted to pool, there aren't but so many in any given community who could be talked into joining the league. If the women moved up, the captains would be scouring the countryside for a rare commodity. If there were fewer and fewer 2-3 sl women, it would become harder and harder for the captains to meet the 23pt rule.

As far as promoting males to 7, I see at the beginning of a session, several of them not able to get on a team. Most teams with openings are looking for 2s and 3s or for a good strong 4. Typically, the 7 has a hard time getting on a team because most teams only have need for one seven. This forces sevens without a team to recruit others to play, in otherwards build their own team. For the LO, just one team means that much more money. If the LO has a big area, you can see how this can mushroom into making more money for them.

bw

Tom_In_Cincy
01-25-2003, 09:44 PM
Are you planning to do anything about this terrible problem?

I am sure that you and BW are familiar enough with the APA to know that there are means available to present this to the APA about your LO tactics..

What is your next step?...

01-25-2003, 09:49 PM

01-25-2003, 09:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> I can see it coming:

HEADLINES-Bluewolf sues APA for 2 mil for discrimination and damages perpetrated against the female pool players. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Whitewolf <hr /></blockquote>

Whitewolf is promoted to sl4 and settles out of court!

silverbullet
01-25-2003, 09:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Are you planning to do anything about this terrible problem?

I am sure that you and BW are familiar enough with the APA to know that there are means available to present this to the APA about your LO tactics..

What is your next step?... <hr /></blockquote>

Whitewolf like it this way, the nerd!!!

I already complained to the LO about some stuff and they sent me this patronizing letter. When I responded with more complaints, they did not even write me back.

So we will see what w/l percent I will have to be before I am promoted.

bw

TomBrooklyn
01-26-2003, 07:30 AM
What is your w/l percentage over your last 10 matches now?

cuechick
01-26-2003, 09:10 AM
I have thought a lot about your post, I do believe it is harder for woman to move up, though maybe not for the reasons you have stated. Yes, woman start lower and that alone makes it more difficult. Is it sexist to start woman at 3's and men at 4's ? YES. Obviously. Yet, maybe this is done as much for men's egos as for the encouragement of female beginers to join.
I do beleive the APA goes out of their way to make it appealing to woman (and I think that is a good thing, whatever their reasons). I also can not think of many men, who are absolute beginners who would put themselves in a competitive situation until they had some skill to win. I think woman are more willing to learn as they go.
I do not agree with your ONLY 2 reasons a captain would include woman. Where I learned to play (NYC) there are quite a few women captains as well as 4's, 5's and 6's. I was one, and had an ALL female team that won in the Open div. to go to Vegas.Unfortantly the APA raised our ONLY 3 to a 4 and niether of my TWO female 6's could play. I also had 4- 5's. So where is your theory there?

I myself am a 6 now. On my new team here in GA, I again have a female Captain. She asked me last week how long it took for me to become a 6 she has never seen one(female) in the area before.
The truth is, it took me 6 years, not because the league was slow in raising me;but because it took ME six years to ge to that level. I came in to APA 6 years ago having only starting playing pool 6 months prior. I was a 2 for a few weeks, a 3 for almost a year, a 4 for maybe 2 years and a 5, a 6 briefly, back to a 5 and now a 6 again. And I finally feel like I am 6. I won 2 MVP's on two different teams as a 5. When I started playing, becoming a 6 seemed unatainable! And a 7, to me if I ever become a 7, then I am ready to play in the pros.
The truth is, most women come to the sport later in life, as 2's or 3's, when men join a team and jump up to a 5, 6, or 7 it is because they are already at that level.
I am proud of my progress but I am the exception, not the rule,only because I have this obsessive personlaity, and I practiced almost everyday, coupled with a freelance life and no other major resposiblities (kids...) was I able to do that.
If your skill level is not being raised as you might hope, just maybe you should spend less time writing letters and more time at the pool table. I am not saying there is no truth to your concerns, but if you improve you will go up. In the mean time, I say, enjoy your 3-dom! Or what ever yor skill level is now, use it to kick butt and aid your team, and gain confidence and you will go up...

silverbullet
01-26-2003, 09:48 AM
Thanks Cuechick. That was a great post. Actually I only wrote two short emails &lt;G&gt;. I spend about 2 hours per day on the pool table. This is fairly easy because it is in my living room.

From what you describe about your NYC experience and then GA, it sounds like there may be a regional affect too. We really cannot say too much about other franchises since this is the only one that ww and I have played in.

Here, it appears that there is little affect in women going from 2 to 3 or 3 to 4. I mean that they appear to go up in the usual way.

When you say that you went up to a 3 rather quickly and then were a 3 for a year, I am curious about what the 2s and 3s and 4s could do in their poolplaying. I have also suspected that relative skill at different sl may in part be regional too (not related to women this).

bw

01-26-2003, 09:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote silverbullet:</font><hr>

I already complained to the LO about some stuff and they sent me this patronizing letter. When I responded with more complaints, they did not even write me back.

So we will see what w/l percent I will have to be before I am promoted.

bw <hr /></blockquote>

silverbullet
01-26-2003, 10:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> What is your w/l percentage over your last 10 matches now? <hr /></blockquote>

I have not checked in the last several weeks. Actually, it appears that my matches from 3 years ago (both wins and losses) were lost even though I was in the computer when I played again, I mean my apa number was still in there. Maybe they dump that stuff after a certain time,I am not sure. Also my match in the playoffs appears not to have been counted so I was wondering if playoff wins and losses are counted. So the number of matches played did not seem accurate either unless they dumped the ones from 3 years ago. Also if you go by innings, I played a lot of safes, especially against better players. Last session my captains tended to not mark most of these as defensive shots (even when they told me which safe to play). If I wanted it counted, I had to literally tell them that that was a defensive shot and to write it down. Of course, I will eventually go up if I win enough even if it takes a long time.

I think that I stated (accurately or no) that this seemed to be going on in terms of promotions to higher sl, not 2s to 3s or 3s to 4s (not sure of with 3s to 4s).

Actually, this is something that some of us have noticed in this franchise, whether it is accurate or not, it is a perception or a gut feeling if you will. If it was just women who are thinking that way, that would be one thing but it is not just women or one man but quite a few who think that here.

I think that one way a person who is any sl can be held down is through handicap management. Or maybe affected by the team a person is on. On my last team, I was dumped on much higher sl on a regular basis, which does affect one's wl. Sure it is good experience also. On the team I am on now, due to the makeup of the team, it looks like I will be playing only those at my sl so this session my wl will probably be higher than it was last session.

bw

silverbullet
01-26-2003, 10:16 AM
Do you see a pattern in your's?

bw

TomBrooklyn
01-26-2003, 10:35 AM
What does your w/l from three years ago have to do with your SL now? Were you better back then?

If you can't remember your own w/l for your last ten matches, how much credence can be given to your "feeling" that something is wrong?

Since you are publically accusing your LO and league of sexism, I would expect you to provide some factual substantition. Will you find out and cite the win/loss percentages for any of the other women you suspect are being held back?

As far as playing higher SLs, if you were really better than your SL, you would be winning many if not most of those matches. You are getting games on the wire from those higher SLs, right? I have seen many lower SLs beat higher ones. Only when that happens would I begin to expect your SL to be raised or the other persons SL to be lowered. Why should it be any other way?

01-26-2003, 10:38 AM
It appears to me that the problem is the 23 cap while starting men and women at different levels. Because wowmen start at a lower skill level it is natural to think we need some really good men and a beginner woman i.e. SL2 to add up to our 23 point cap. If everyone started at the same skill level then one could claim that the system is "gender-neutral". Then to fill out a team captains would look for just beginner's and not beginner women.

The system as it stands now does indirectly promote placing women on your team due to the fact they start at a lower SL. In a true "gender-neutral" system would the tendancy be to place a beginner male or beginner female on your team? Unfortunately I'd think we would see the unwanted effect of less women playing. The majority of teams are made up of friends who like to get together once a week to shoot some pool, but the highly competitive teams would unfortunately IMHO have less women on them in a "gender-neutral" system. Wrong, but probable.

01-26-2003, 10:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote silverbullet:</font><hr> Do you see a pattern in your's?

bw <hr /></blockquote>

Ross
01-26-2003, 10:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote silverbullet:</font><hr> I cannot prove anything and I can only give my opinion about motives just like the sevens I talked to can only give their opinion. I can site a couple of examples, however. There are others that seem that way but I do not know the numbers.

<font color="blue"> Very, very few APA players actually understand the handicapping algorithm. Because of this, many players see rankings that don't make sense to them. Unfortunately, there is a tendency to explain these &gt;&gt;apparent&lt;&lt; unfairnesses with conspiracy theories about either the LO or the players. So I wouldn't recommend believing what you hear without checking out the facts for yourself.
</font color>


A three on our team. Has more than 50% w/l.
<font color="blue">
A w/l better than 50% doesn't mean much. Even if a handicapping system is perfect a significant percentage of players will have w/l records better than 50% (and a significant percentage below 50%). Think of the analogy of flipping a coin, which would correspond to a perfect handicapping system - 50/50 whether it comes up heads or tails, just like in a perfect handicapping system it is 50/50 whether player A or player B wins a match. Flip the coin 10 times (play 10 matches). Sometimes you will get several more heads than tails, and vice versa, even though the coin is fair. Same in a handicapped league.
</font color>


Has beaten a number of sl4-5 players.
<font color="blue">
This again indicates nothing about the fairness of her handicap. If she beat sl4's and 5's in a NON-handicapped system then it would mean something. The whole point of a handicapped league is that every player has an equal chance to win no matter their skill level or their opponents skill level. A 2 is just as likely to beat a 6 (if the handicapping system is fair) as he/she is to beat another 2.
</font color>

Average innings 4-6 including safeties.
<font color="blue">
OK, this is the first bit of relevant information. The APA ranking system does depend partly on number of innings per game. But to really evaluate it, you would need to keep records (impressions are notoriously unreliable) of her number of innings over the best 10 of her last 20 matches, since that is the way the APA system works (or a least did in the past) and compare that to the expected number of innings for other 3's.
</font color>


She does 1-2 safeties a game unless she has a run. She is approximately 80% on long shots and knows some shape. Does not jump, masse or kick. Occasionally banks.
<font color="blue">
Irrelevant since the APA ranking system is not based on the ability to do particular shots. Remember the system only has info on four variables: number of innings, number of safeties, rankings of the two players, and whether the game was won or lost.
</font color>

An sl6 woman. Was beating everybody she played. wl above 70% before the lo finally let her be a 7.
<font color="blue">
Again the system goes back 20 matches so it takes a while for rankings to adjust. Also, do you know the average number of innings/game for the sl6? W-L record alone does not determing ranking.
</font color>


There are more examples that the 7s I talked to know about. I have seen a few more.
bw
<font color="blue">
Just because a player is a 7, that doesn't mean he/she has taken the time or put in the effort to understand the handicapping system or think it through. So again, it is not fair to accuse an LO of being biased unless you know how the ranking formula works and have specific evidence that it is not being applied as designed.

Of course, LO's are used to regularly being accused of being unfair, so he/she probably has a thick skin about such rumours by now and will get over it!
</font color>

01-26-2003, 11:01 AM
Are U the <font color="red"> ONLY </font color> person in the league that plays a safty and it doesn't get marked down?

silverbullet
01-26-2003, 11:49 AM
I am no sure what you mean by on the wire. I got a lot of my balls in if that is what you mean.

bw

Rod
01-26-2003, 02:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I already complained to the LO about some stuff and they sent me this patronizing letter. When I responded with more complaints, they did not even write me back.


Have you ever considered that you do not play well enough to be raised? I don't know one way or the other but it is my thought when you are at that level you will be raised. Pool players don't like unfair handicaps. Players there are no different than here. If you keep beating everyone at your handicap they will not only tell you but your LO. Have you had more than one complaint?


So we will see what w/l percent I will have to be before I am promoted.
<hr /></blockquote>

Is this about status? Do you want to be called a 3 so you will be better looked upon in your pool playing community? Being raised before your time isn't doing you or your team any favors.

In my location we have a ratings committee. I represented my room at each meeting, every two months. This system has some flaws but so does any other system. We voted to either raise or sometimes lower a persons handicap. We voted on league players and non league players. Over the years many of them didn't like being raised as it made it more difficult to win.
Others took it in stride as they knew they were playing above their current handicap. They also knew or found out later that it was very difficult to win in leagues and tournaments. When they went up a level, say a 5, they were playing at the bottom of that rating.
If broken down that very likly would be a high 4 to a low 5. Like a 5.1 or 5.2 max. Since they were beating to many 4's or higher rated players at their present handicap, it was their time to move up.

Then comes the very few that want to be raised. I've seen it many times. In almost every case the played wanted the status. One such wanted it because he gave lessons and figured with that status attract more students. Well if you ask me this is a form of fraud. If someone bills themself as an advanced/ master instructor etc and they are not, would you want to take lessons from them?

I realize this is not happening here but it comes in all forms. Over the years I have played many so called 7's, 8's, 9's etc. Some by their own admission and others that were raised premature, bad judgement on the committee. It wasn't even close, they had exactly zero chance. Well I guess I could have had a heart attack! LOL
I've seen this happen countless times and BTW we served over 5000 players in the valley.

I say leave the sexist part out and "just play your game".
Life is to short to worry about a number.
When your record shows you to have a distinct advantage at your handicap, then you will receive your status.

JMO of course.

bluewolf
01-26-2003, 05:18 PM
This I just found out today that I had been dumped on all of those sandbaggers. I have now been told that the captain put me on those as a dump so that he did not have to waste his high 3 or good 4s. I really did not know why those two threes were so good.The others I just thought were good, the 4-6sl players. And now I have found out that they were sandbagging too. I do not think that way. I do not know anything about sandbagging so I really thought I was doing well when I always was getting in all of the balls except for the 8. Then ww just told me today that that is what sandbaggers do. Let you almost win so that they can have more innings.

It doesnt have anything to do with women but it came up I guess in relation to me. My current captain is nothing like that. Nobody on our team is a sandbagger. They all seem to try to play their best. I have only played once this season so far, but it seems like a nice team.

bluewolf

bluewolf
01-26-2003, 05:41 PM
Now ww just said to me 'remember when the captain (last session)said to you "you are going to be a two for a long time" ? and then said that i turned to him and asked what the captain meant by that and that ww said 'it means that he will play you against so many 4s and 5s that you cant move up'. I asked ww if this is illegal and he said 'no, it is just handicap management'.

Since this was my first real full session, I guess some of what happened did not make sense and maybe it never will, but the important thing I guess is that I am on a good team now and have a fair captain.

bluewolf

01-26-2003, 06:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> Now ww just said to me 'remember when the captain (last session)said to you "you are going to be a two for a long time" ? and then said that i turned to him and asked what the captain meant by that and that ww said 'it means that he will play you against so many 4s and 5s that you cant move up'. I asked ww if this is illegal and he said 'no, it is just handicap management'.

Since this was my first real full session, I guess some of what happened did not make sense and maybe it never will, but the important thing I guess is that I am on a good team now and have a fair captain.

bluewolf <hr /></blockquote>

so, to recap:

you had this whole big theory about how there was this sexist conspiracy covering thousands of players and how the entire organization was based upon the economics of this conspiracy and how you were so much better than they would rate you and there was post after post on this terrible conspiracy except that you didn't know you were gettin bagged?

ok, now. if after league this week they invite you to go with them hunting snipe refuse to go unless they let you hold the snipe bag.

dan...and i thought emily latella died.

Fred Agnir
01-27-2003, 08:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote silverbullet:</font><hr> ~ snip all the "examples" of supposed incorrect handicaps~<hr /></blockquote>
Laura, there is simply much more to the handicap system than perceived skill level and winning percentage. You can be at 100% winning percentage and not go up. You can be at less than 50% and not go down. There's simply more to it than that. Crazy as it may seem, there is the odd possibility that you could lose all of your matches, and still not go down. There's also the odd possibility that you could go up, and lose the majority of your matches.



Anyone who tells you this or that about unfair handicaps and the reason why most likely is barking up the wrong tree and is just complaining. They most likely have no idea how the handicaps are done, and are simply guessing based on what other people are saying/complaining.

To address your earlier complaint, there are indeed at least two areas of sexism in the APA that are blatantly true. First-time male players start at a higher handicap than a first-time female. And at higher-level 8-balltournaments, there can be no male SL-2. I think these are both crappy rules. The rest that you mention is conjecture and speculation only, afaik.

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks APA players shouldn't worry about the handicaps

P.S. I edited this post as I inadvertantly put the wrong SL above (in boldface). Sorry about the confusion.

WaltVA
01-27-2003, 09:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> And at higher-level tournaments, there can be no male SL-3.
Fred &lt;~~~ thinks APA players shouldn't worry about the handicaps <hr /></blockquote>

Fred - minor correction: in APA higher level 8-ball, there can be no male 2's; they must play as 3's. In higher level 9-ball, no male 1's.

Other than this, I agree 100% - if Laura simply hones her skills and keeps playing, she'll get "promoted" when her game warrants it.

Walt in VA

TomBrooklyn
01-27-2003, 09:51 AM
Yea, chill out. Play some Target Pool.

Fred Agnir
01-27-2003, 10:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote WaltVA:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> And at higher-level tournaments, there can be no male SL-3.
Fred &lt;~~~ thinks APA players shouldn't worry about the handicaps <hr /></blockquote>

Fred - minor correction: in APA higher level 8-ball, there can be no male 2's; they must play as 3's. In higher level 9-ball, no male 1's. <hr /></blockquote>

Whoops. That was a typo. There can be no male SL-2's in higher level 8-ball tournaments. Maybe I should go back and edit that.

Fred

9 Ball Girl
01-27-2003, 03:38 PM
To Silverbullet -

The APA sure as hell doesn't keep me down! I started out as an SL-3 only because that's what I was about 3 years ago. In about five weeks I became a 4 and then in about another five weeks I became a 5. I've been at the 5 for about 3 weeks now and my team didn't make it to the playoffs because we really got screwed in that we now have way too many points to put all of our players up. I'm going to take a break from this season to practice (I think).

Anyway, I say if you think your handicap is lower that what you skill really is, take advantage!

To Cuechick - Good luck with your new team and in the SEAL tour!

01-27-2003, 04:03 PM
I find it hard to believe the APA keeps anyone down. Think about it. Their whole business is based on recruiting new players. So...what's the best way to "force" teams to add new players? Raise their handicaps so they must split up the team!!

They claim their Equalizer system is so good, right? So then why can't you have 8 SL7's on a team? Because they would dominate. Or at least they should, IMO. They put the 23 limit on you so that once everyone on your team has improved, you have to split up and bring in new players. I think we all know that an SL3 should not beat an SL7. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying I'll put my money on the 7 every time.

It's the same way with keeping your eligibility. If your team wins the fall session, you MUST play in the spring to remain eligible. That's why some people only play in the spring. They get you coming and going /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I guess it's just good business and I don't have any complaints about the APA for the most part. But if you're gonna play in the APA, accept it for what it is and have fun. Be happy that you are underrated right now, there may be a day when you feel you are overrated. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Chris

Rod
01-27-2003, 04:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
The APA sure as hell doesn't keep me down! I started out as an SL-3 only because that's what I was about 3 years ago. In about five weeks I became a 4 and then in about another five weeks I became a 5. <hr /></blockquote>


Wendy, that is because pure talent is hard to hide. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

01-27-2003, 04:44 PM
Now I've heard everything. An APA player distressed because their handicap is too low. Be happy that you're not a higher handicap. As you get promoted, you start playing tougher competition along with having to win more games in order to win the match. And if you're not up to playing at that level you will find yourself losing. I don't know about you, but I don't find any joy in losing.

SpiderMan
01-27-2003, 05:00 PM
Hey Rod,

Similar thing happened to me. Apparently the League Operators have the ability to override the computer programs. I started as a 4 like all men, but I expected to move up a grade at a time. I won my first match against a 6, and the following week I was a 7. My team captain was told by the LO that he made the adjustment based on calls from other players.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
The APA sure as hell doesn't keep me down! I started out as an SL-3 only because that's what I was about 3 years ago. In about five weeks I became a 4 and then in about another five weeks I became a 5. <hr /></blockquote>


Wendy, that is because pure talent is hard to hide. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Rod
01-27-2003, 05:33 PM
It's a shame any one person has that much control. We did the same at our meetings but usually it was several people who voted on a player. I imagine if the players from the other team had their say it was a little one sided. Jumping up 3 steps has to be very unusual. Now if you did play that well at the time I understand. What rating were you during or at the end of the season? We had that stuff happen, usually when a low to mid rated player either got beat and/or wanted to raise someone. Fortunately there was others that did not agree. One good session is not a good reason to raise someone.

bluewolf
01-27-2003, 06:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote silverbullet:</font><hr> ~ snip all the "examples" of supposed incorrect handicaps~<hr /></blockquote>
Laura, there is simply much more to the handicap system than perceived skill level and winning percentage. You can be at 100% winning percentage and not go up. You can be at less than 50% and not go down. There's simply more to it than that. Crazy as it may seem, there is the odd possibility that you could lose all of your matches, and still not go down. There's also the odd possibility that you could go up, and lose the majority of your matches.



Anyone who tells you this or that about unfair handicaps and the reason why most likely is barking up the wrong tree and is just complaining. They most likely have no idea how the handicaps are done, and are simply guessing based on what other people are saying/complaining.

To address your earlier complaint, there are indeed at least two areas of sexism in the APA that are blatantly true. First-time male players start at a higher handicap than a first-time female. And at higher-level 8-balltournaments, there can be no male SL-2. I think these are both crappy rules. The rest that you mention is conjecture and speculation only, afaik.

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks APA players shouldn't worry about the handicaps

P.S. I edited this post as I inadvertantly put the wrong SL above (in boldface). Sorry about the confusion. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks fred. Maybe I listened to the wrong people. Anyway, even if the apa did dump a win or two, dont guess it matters all that much after all. It isnt the us open. Maybe I will be the best two in history by the time i go up.

also should not have rented head real estate to certain people. was niave in certain respects. oh well

bw

bluewolf
01-27-2003, 07:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> Yea, chill out. Play some Target Pool. <hr /></blockquote>

Great idea!!! Best thing I have heard. Cant wait for my game to arrive.

bw

bluewolf
01-27-2003, 07:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> To Silverbullet -

The APA sure as hell doesn't keep me down! I started out as an SL-3 only because that's what I was about 3 years ago. In about five weeks I became a 4 and then in about another five weeks I became a 5. I've been at the 5 for about 3 weeks now and my team didn't make it to the playoffs because we really got screwed in that we now have way too many points to put all of our players up. I'm going to take a break from this season to practice (I think).

Anyway, I say if you think your handicap is lower that what you skill really is, take advantage!

To Cuechick - Good luck with your new team and in the SEAL tour! <hr /></blockquote>

Go 9ball girl!! BTW, what is the seal tour?

bw

9 Ball Girl
01-27-2003, 09:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> BTW, what is the seal tour?

bw <hr /></blockquote>

South East Amateur Ladies Tour

Fred Agnir
01-28-2003, 08:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Hey Rod,

Similar thing happened to me. Apparently the League Operators have the ability to override the computer programs. I started as a 4 like all men, but I expected to move up a grade at a time. I won my first match against a 6, and the following week I was a 7. My team captain was told by the LO that he made the adjustment based on calls from other players.<hr /></blockquote>
Although a LO as far as I know *can* make changes like that, why wouldn't you think you could go to an SL- 7 after just one week of play? As far as I know, there is no "new player dampening" or 10 week probation or similar.

Fred

cuechick
01-28-2003, 10:17 AM
Well I guess your question is really about why you have not gone up. Good for you to want to improve. The difference between the levels is IMO skill, consistancey and knowledge. When I started I could make balls, but I know idea about patterns, position...The only way to really improve quickly, is to break out of your comfort zone.
You are practicing 2 hours a day on your own table...1st is this a bar table? 2nd are you playing with your husband or by yourself? either way, you have most likely learned all you can form him. he may be a highly skilled player but I believe learning from someone your that close too is very limited. You need to to play with, different, better players to learn, and players near your own level to gain confidence and consisitancy. You need to play on 9 foot tables, other wise you are waisting your time. You need to do drills over and over and, and if possible take instruction with a good teacher to make sure your mechanics are sound and to gain knowledge.
When I started I played 4 to 6 and sometimes 8 hours a day, almost everyday. I know play maybe 3-4 days a week and a minimum of 4 hours.
I'd also suggest playing in any other (than APA) tournamnets available to you in your area, it is a great way to gain experiance and a chance to play good players. As women we have one advantage, men will show us stuff if we are willing and open. If an A player wants to give me advice i am all ears! And we I play with high level players I watch everything they do and ask questions.I try and play with the best players who will play with me. Gambling is not really my thing, though some consider that the best way to improve your competitive edge. I am not sure if I agree...at your level, just play, break out of the comfort zone...is my advice.

silverbullet
01-28-2003, 02:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cuechick:</font><hr> Well I guess your question is really about why you have not gone up. Good for you to want to improve. The difference between the levels is IMO skill, consistancey and knowledge. When I started I could make balls, but I know idea about patterns, position...The only way to really improve quickly, is to break out of your comfort zone.]

thanks cuechick. I actually am pretty good at safe, actuallymy defensive game was so good, I had to stop practicing defense for awhile and focus on potting so my game would not be so cockeyed. Actually i am kind of like a learning disabled kid inmy pool abililyties, with peaks and valleys ...dont know if every body is that way...when I am having trouble with a certain thing I try to practice that so I get better at it...my knowlege of shape is okay for a three or so..simple shape, see the pattern of which balls to shoot the order etc...just need skills on getting the cb where i need it to go...i was just using rails, part ball hits ball speed for shape but could just do simple shape like several at one end and getting from one to the other...usually spased out on the eight cuz did not have the position skills to get from one end to the other to give me an easy shot on the eight...so have been working more on shape i guess...
[are practicing 2 hours a day on your own table...1st is this a bar table? ]

4x8. try to play once a week on 9 ft plus an hour before league

[2nd are you playing with your husband or by yourself? either way, you have most likely learned all you can form him. he may be a highly skilled player but I believe learning from someone your that close too is very limited.]

I try to practice as much as i can when he isnt around. i initially learned from him the stroke, not as good as from scott lee and randy but a begginning...he is an apa 7 and it does not do me any good to practice with him..for one thing, he says weird stuff like 'that was a [censored]*t break' lol and i know that he is saying based on that it would be bad if it were his break. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ You need to to play with, different, better players to learn, and players near your own level to gain confidence and consisitancy. You need to play on 9 foot tables, other wise you are waisting your time. ]

yeah i need to practice with better people. i llike playing with high 3s and 4s

[You need to do drills over and over and, and if possible take instruction with a good teacher to make sure your mechanics are sound and to gain knowledge.]

i do some just potting and some drills. balls peed, draw, over ball shots etc. need to get back to more drills i am thinking.

[When I started I played 4 to 6 and sometimes 8 hours a day, almost everyday. I know play maybe 3-4 days a week and a minimum of 4 hours.
I'd also suggest playing in any other (than APA) tournamnets available to you in your area, it is a great way to gain experiance and a chance to play good players.]

this is something i want to do if i can get past a certain 7 saying i should not compete in a certain tounament, that i would get killed. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif a guys way of looking out for me i guess /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[ As women we have one advantage, men will show us stuff if we are willing and open. If an A player wants to give me advice i am all ears! And we I play with high level players I watch everything they do and ask questions.I try and play with the best players who will play with me. Gambling is not really my thing, though some consider that the best way to improve your competitive edge. I am not sure if I agree...at your level, just play, break out of the comfort zone...is my advice. <hr /></blockquote>]

oh yeah take lessons and go to pool school

thanks again.

laura

bluewolf
01-29-2003, 07:09 AM
thanks again. Found a ph in the town I work in. Will be on 9ft there twice a week where nobody knows me.

going up? dunno. played okay in some matches and beats two and an occasional three. I played the best in the tournament when I beat the good four. I was so sick I could not lift my head up hardly but was able to stand long enuff to play. I think that my brain was shut off from saying negative stuff to me so just played by instinct. [still had a very hard time beating him tho, even at my best]

bw