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L.S. Dennis
01-26-2003, 03:40 PM
I constantly hear people complain on how they lost a tough match by some either 'riding the nine ball into some unitentioned pocket or someone missing their shot and have the ball drop in another that was unintentioned thereby allow them to still win the rack, and or match.

The obvious solution is to go with the "call pocket nine ball rules"! I've seen these rules used in some pro events and I think everyone would agree this would go a long way to purify and take the some of the luck and injustice out of the game! Am I wrong on this?

Popcorn
01-26-2003, 03:58 PM
In my opinion, you may be surprised how little a ball being lucked in affects the outcome of a match. It does not happen that much with better players, and almost never with pro players. Nine ball is what it is and to change it, is to change the game. I would like to see longer races though. It seems silly to me to see pro players playing to 7 or 9. I think the changes that need to made are to the tournament structures, not the game. Just my opinion.

snipershot
01-26-2003, 04:02 PM
Interesting idea, it would take the luck out of the game but I think that would be more of a bad thing than a good one, it might drive some of the less skilled players who like the fluke part of nine ball away from the game. This topic could probably be debated forever, IMO the game is fine the way it is.

01-26-2003, 04:18 PM
I tend to agree that 9-ball is what it is, and to change it would just be making another game. Sometimes it's annoying to lose to a lesser player because of luck, but then again that's what keeps things interesting. I guess I consider it a handicapping of sorts -- it lets the lesser player feel that they have a chance against a better player, and it forces the better player to not screw up and give their opponent an opportunity to "luck" one in.

OTOH, I don't particularly care for allowing slop in APA 8-ball. I think 8-ball should always be call-pocket.

David

snipershot
01-26-2003, 04:30 PM
I also think that eight ball should always be call pocket, unlike nine ball where players dont' luck out very often, in eight ball people luck out much more frequently, with fifteen balls on the table instead of just nine alot can happen that wasn't intended to happen. Call pocket suits eight ball perfectly.

01-26-2003, 04:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote L.S. Dennis:</font><hr> I constantly hear people complain on how they lost a tough match by some either 'riding the nine ball into some unitentioned pocket or someone missing their shot and have the ball drop in another that was unintentioned thereby allow them to still win the rack, and or match.

The obvious solution is to go with the "call pocket nine ball rules"! I've seen these rules used in some pro events and I think everyone would agree this would go a long way to purify and take the some of the luck and injustice out of the game! Am I wrong on this? <hr /></blockquote>

wouldn't say you're wrong, exactly, it's just that that would make it a different game. part of the charm of 9-ball is that it moves fast. most people play sets rather than individual games so the luck, good or bad, get's diluted out. on a good day, with good players and loser break, it can get to be a lot like flippin quarters.

1-p is a not a call game but you don't see much slop there.

i dunno, rack 'em and i'll play any rules you want.

dan

Ken
01-26-2003, 05:05 PM
Call pocket nine ball requires only that the nine be called. The Challenge of Champions is now requiring that the nine be called only if its not the lowest ball or if the shot on the nine is not obvious.

If you want to call all shots there is the problem of deliberate safetys by calling the wrong pocket and then making the ball. The ball stays down and your opponent comes in with an impossible leave. There would have to be a penalty for making the ball in the wrong pocket. Putting the ball down and giving your opponent the table is too much of an advantage. Something as simple as treating it like a push so the opponent could decline the shot might work.
KenCT

Hopster
01-26-2003, 06:05 PM
I dont think its that big of a factor and it would detract form the game. As someone else stated longer races would take most of the luck factor out.
As far as the call eight ball goes, that slop rule is for the birds. As long as you call the ball and the pocket i dont care if it hits 10 balls, 6 rails and stops for a cup of coffee on the way, so long as the ball goes in the called pocket, shot accomplished. These idiots who start screaming "SLOP" if a ball caroms of another ball annoy me to no end. The ball goes in, end of story, next shot.
Thats why i dont play eight ball in bars, too many drunks and different rules.

Tom_In_Cincy
01-26-2003, 09:59 PM
I suggested this alternative years ago.. and again just recently in this forum.

If you don't like the current rules of 9 ball.. PLAY 14.1 (Straight Pool for those that like call shot games)

Lucking the 9 ball in during the game is no different that making it on the break. Nine ball is the game of choice for lots of local tournaments because that's the game everyone wants to play.


Accept that and your mindset will make you a better commpetetor.

BTW.. I never heard winners saying it should be a call shot game.

L.S. Dennis
01-26-2003, 10:38 PM
Actually there are specific rules in "call pocket nine ball" and this does not just mean that you have to call the nine onely. Every pocket needs to be called for all a balls hense the name "call pocket". In these rules if a player untintentionally or intentionally makes his/her ball in a pocket not called trying to play some kind of a safe or something, their opponent simply has the choice of accepting the shot or giving it back. That solves that problem!

I don't know, I guess I'm just old fashion but I don't like winning or losing a game that was determined by some element of luck. And by the way I do like to play straight pool for precisely this reason!

Fran Crimi
01-26-2003, 10:51 PM
Dennis, if you remember those good old straight pool days, when everyone was playing the game and no one even heard of nine ball...well, I'm sure you remember when a player would miss a break shot, smash the rack and leave his opponent with no shot, or miss on an open table and leave no shot. That was brutal! 15 balls wide open and no shot. I saw that happen a lot in straight pool. Not as many people play the game today, and I'm wondering if we're just not seeing the luck factor because we're not seeing as many games played.

I do agree with you that there is more luck involved in nine ball, but I'm not all that sure that everyone remembers the luck factor in 14.1 as well.

Fran

L.S. Dennis
01-26-2003, 11:57 PM
Fran,
You're right in pointing out no game is completely devoid of some kind of luck somewhere. However on balance I think you'll agree that the difference in the luck factor between nine ball and straight pool is tremendous. Don't get me wrong I love nineball, I would just like to see it made better. And for those who say that the game is what it is and can't be changed I point out that it has been changed many times in the past. The "Texas express" rules were adopted not too many years ago that certainly was a major change to the game as we had known it. And long before that the one shot push out rule gave way to ball in hand which some of the really old timers still lament! So this business about the game being what it is and not able to be changed is nonsense!!!

Just venting

Fred Agnir
01-27-2003, 08:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68 first says this:</font><hr> I tend to agree that 9-ball is what it is, and to change it would just be making another game.
<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote then says this:</font><hr>OTOH, I don't particularly care for allowing slop in APA 8-ball. I think 8-ball should always be call-pocket.<hr /></blockquote>
This is just a point that you might not see as contradictory, but up until the late 70's and well into the 80's, professional players played 8-ball with "slop rules" exactly as you see in APA. The game changed to a call shot game, so the version that you like today is indeed a different game than originally laid out. Future 9-baller may like 9-ball with modified rules as well.

I have a tape with Larry Hubbart (co-founder of the APA) playing an 8-ball tournament in c.1986. They were playing slop (no call). Those were the rules the pros were playing, so the APA rules were made with those rules in mind.

For industry nuts, my 1977 BCA rulebook mentions nothing about calling shots in 8-ball. My 1985 BCA rulebook only mentions calling shots as an option, with no call as the other option.

Fred

Popcorn
01-27-2003, 09:04 AM
I don't think calling the balls would change the game much and not at all for the pros. I can easily play someone calling the balls and they play by the regular rules. It really doesn't matter. It is not even a handicap, if I played someone like that I would be coning them into thinking they had a spot. The major luck factor is based on the leaves. A player may miss and not be punished for it and go on to win the game anyway. You would have to go back to pushout, to really change the game. I think you are giving too much value to calling the ball. By the way, straight pool may have more luck factors the any other game.

Fran Crimi
01-27-2003, 09:39 AM
It's true, Dennis, that any game can be changed. The question is which way do you change it? One shot push out had it's really, really bad sides...one was that it took an awfully long time to pocket 9 balls. Plus, the skill of kicking was a non-issue back then. No jumping. None of that. If you got in trouble, you pushed your way out of it and if your opponent gave you back the shot, you'd probably play safe, and then he would push and you'd give him back the shot and so-on. It may seem to you like it's an easier game now, but there's a lot more pressure now when your cue ball is buried and you know your opponent gets ball in hand if you don't hit the object ball, and hit it in a way that doesn't leave him a shot.

The other thing is the strategic two-way shots you can play by not having to call your shot. Understanding the strategy and knowing how to execute those 'either-or', or two way shots requires an advanced knowledge of the game. I think that overall, the changes they've made to 9-ball make the game more creative and challenging for the better player.

Fran

01-27-2003, 09:47 AM
Fred, thanks for the history lesson! I had no idea that 8-ball was ever played as slop in the pros. I was playing in the 70's and 80's, but never remember actually seeing a pro 8-ball tourney until much later.

When I learned 8-ball in the 70's, it was taught to me as a call-pocket game. While I had played slop 8-ball with beginning friends/family just for fun, I never heard of "official" slop 8-ball rules until I learned of the APA rule. I guess BCA has changed its tune gradually over the years, as current BCA rules clearly state that 8-ball is a call-shot game -- there is no mention of it being optional.

Had I ever known that 8-ball was originally a slop game, then I would have argued against changing it too. Even though I prefer the call-shot aspect of 8-ball as I know it, I would rather it had been created as a "new" game. I just don't think I'd like to play 9-ball with call every shot -- calling the 9 I suppose I could live with, but every shot? I dunno, I guess the traditionalist in me says leave the rules alone and make up another game if you want to change 'em! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

David

L.S. Dennis
01-27-2003, 10:01 AM
Fran, I'm not suggesting that we go back to the one shot push out game either, I too like most of what the game has evolved into these days. Let's face it without the art of kicking that is needed these days we would never have been able witness the magic of Efren Reyes! No agree with everyhting you've stated in the above post. The only thing I'm saying is why not take that final step to make the game that much better?! Now I'm enough of a realist to know that this will never happen, just read some of these posts. It's true that at the pro level there would be little or no difference but at the lower level, contrary to what popcorn says it would have a substantion impact!

Fred Agnir
01-27-2003, 10:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> optional.

Had I ever known that 8-ball was originally a slop game, then I would have argued against changing it too. <hr /></blockquote>
The BCA became the BCA I believe in 1948. Their original written-down rules for 8-ball can be found at Jim Barr's site. There are still many private clubs around the country that play by rules similar to the 1948 rules.

http://www.sound.net/~jimbarr/pplofkc/1948rules.html

That's for those of you who come across rules like:

1 &amp; 15 in the side
loss of game when fouling of any kind on the 8-ball
Cue ball in hand = in the kitchen

Etc.

Fred

Fran Crimi
01-27-2003, 10:55 AM
Your points are all well taken, but you know why I think we can't make 9-ball a call-shot game, Dennis? I think because it would be too tough for beginners and intermediate players. The luck factor in pocketing a ball by mistake really does help move the game along. Rotation games aren't generally call-pocket games. It's hard enough to ask a less than advanced player to run the balls in rotation, no less ask them to call the pocket. As for advanced players, I think the trade-off of the occasional opponent's lucky pocketed ball is worth being able to shoot those two-way shots.

Good topic for debate, though, isn't it?

Fran

L.S. Dennis
01-27-2003, 11:31 AM
Fran, Your comment about the changes being too tough for the beginner and intermediate players probably makes more sense than anything else I've read in the preovious posts. I can accept that as a viable explantion for the status quo although in my heart I still tend to resist it.

If you remember C.J. tried these changes when he founded the PCA (professional cuesports association) a few years ago. Unfortunately it folded but not before Earl was able to win the $1,000,000 challange by running 10+ racks of nine ball in a row! It is a good topic for debate though!

Rod
01-27-2003, 03:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
For industry nuts, my 1977 BCA rulebook mentions nothing about calling shots in 8-ball. My 1985 BCA rulebook only mentions calling shots as an option, with no call as the other option.

<hr /></blockquote>

The 67 BCA rule book does not mention call shot other than the 8. It is loss of game when shooting at the 8 if the 8 or c/b does not touch a rail if the 8 is not pocketed. If one fails to hit the 8 on a bank, loss of game. If made on the break, loss of game. The 74 book is near the same.

bell
01-27-2003, 07:58 PM
To: LS Dennis
Are there any published "official" rules for "call shot nine ball"?

L.S. Dennis
01-27-2003, 09:47 PM
Bell, yes there are some published rules for call pocket nineball, but it's really not all that difficult to understand. You simply need to call the pocket of the ball you're shooting and if that ball happens to fall into another pocket on that shot your opponent has the option of accepting the shot where it lies with that pocketed ball staying down or simply giving it back to the person who shot who shot it! That way no trick safety or any other nonsense like that occurs. Obviously on the break balls that fall into pockets don't need to be called. Everything else is the same as the nineball you play now.

Pretty simply really,

Alfie
01-28-2003, 02:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> Had I ever known that 8-ball was originally a slop game, then I would have argued against changing it too. <hr /></blockquote> The BCA became the BCA I believe in 1948. Their original written-down rules for 8-ball can be found at Jim Barr's site. There are still many private clubs around the country that play by rules similar to the 1948 rules.

http://www.sound.net/~jimbarr/pplofkc/1948rules.html<hr /></blockquote> These rules say that 'the starting player is not compelled to call his shot on the break.' Is ensuing required 'call shot' implied? Was there a General Rules section or equivalent (perhaps hidden away in the 14.1 rules) in 1948 or in the cited 1977 edition that was germane to call shot in 8-ball?

01-28-2003, 04:36 PM
L.S Dennis said "You simply need to call the pocket of the ball you're shooting and if that ball happens to fall into another pocket on that shot your opponent has the option of accepting the shot where it lies with that pocketed ball staying down or simply giving it back to the person who shot who shot it! That way no trick safety or any other nonsense like that occurs."

I suppose this may be a dumb question but how did you determine this unique modification of 1 shot foul ball in hand rule combined with an unusual form of 2 shot rollout? I have never seen the rules succesfully combined in this manner before.

Jimbo

L.S. Dennis
01-28-2003, 04:46 PM
Jimbo, correct me if I'm wrong but the difference is that "the old rules" a person could push out at anytime and that option rule would then come into effect. Where in call pocket nineball this would only happen when a person mistakenly pocketed their ball in a pocket other that the one declared. Hope this makes sense. Again these are the rules that Scott Smith used while directing a tournament in SF Which Kim Davenport won and also the rules used be C.J. Weiley's(spelling/) PCA organization.

smfsrca
01-28-2003, 06:36 PM
Play by the same rules as are currently common except: do not allow short racks. The nine ball must be last. If the nine is made out of turn it spots and the shooter continues.

L.S. Dennis
01-28-2003, 10:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote smfsrca:</font><hr> Play by the same rules as are currently common except: do not allow short racks. The nine ball must be last. If the nine is made out of turn it spots and the shooter continues.



Well I,d say that's partially correct in that the game is played essentially as it is now except that all pockets are called for all shot. Short racks still allowed assuming the nine is called as a part of a legal shot combination etc.
Call pocket nineball, simple enough!!!

<hr /></blockquote>

Fred Agnir
01-29-2003, 08:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> These rules say that 'the starting player is not compelled to call his shot on the break.' Is ensuing required 'call shot' implied? Was there a General Rules section or equivalent (perhaps hidden away in the 14.1 rules) in 1948 or in the cited 1977 edition that was germane to call shot in 8-ball? <hr /></blockquote>
I think it would be clearer if we were there at the time with the mindset of pool at the time. 14.1 was a call shot game; pretty much nothing else was.

The 1977 edition clearly states that 14.1 is a call shot game, and devotes a good chunk of text to that notion. No mention of calling shots is present in 8-ball. There is no explicit rule of calling shots in the 1948 version either, other than an explicit "call the 8-ball." That implies the other shots don't have to be called. That is, if it were a "call shot game," then the same type of verbiage would be present. Considering there is no mention of calling shots in the 1977 version, it would be odd if it was any kind of requirement beforehand (say 1948) and suddenly, no option is even mentioned.

I think the note on "shooter isn't compelled to call his shot on the break" simply is an indication that the table is open and that he doesn't have to declare a suit.

Fred

Fred Agnir
01-29-2003, 08:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimbo:</font><hr> L.S Dennis said "You simply need to call the pocket of the ball you're shooting and if that ball happens to fall into another pocket on that shot your opponent has the option of accepting the shot where it lies with that pocketed ball staying down or simply giving it back to the person who shot who shot it! That way no trick safety or any other nonsense like that occurs."

I suppose this may be a dumb question but how did you determine this unique modification of 1 shot foul ball in hand rule combined with an unusual form of 2 shot rollout? I have never seen the rules succesfully combined in this manner before.
<hr /></blockquote>

Someone needs to check on this, but I believe these are Grady Matthews Rules that he incorporated at some of his 9-ball events in an effort to reduce the perceived luck factor in 9-ball. I never saw the rules written down, but many people have commented on their use. I don't know how well those rules were received. Maybe Grady will pipe in.

Fred

bell
01-29-2003, 10:57 PM
L.S. Dennis
Thanks for your response. I have just one more question. I was playing "call pocket nine-ball" at a local community center. I called the nine in pocket A but it went into pocket B. The CB did not scratch. My opponent said I lost the game. I protested that the nine is just spotted and the game goes on. What is the rule?

L.S. Dennis
01-30-2003, 12:00 AM
Bell,

You were correct and your opponent was wrong. What gave him or herthe idea that you lost the game is beyond me. He must have been used to some form of 8 ball rules.

Scott Lee
01-30-2003, 08:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote then says this:</font><hr>OTOH, I don't particularly care for allowing slop in APA 8-ball. I think 8-ball should always be call-pocket.<hr /></blockquote>
This is just a point that you might not see as contradictory, but up until the late 70's and well into the 80's, professional players played 8-ball with "slop rules" exactly as you see in APA. The game changed to a call shot game, so the version that you like today is indeed a different game than originally laid out. Future 9-baller may like 9-ball with modified rules as well.

I have a tape with Larry Hubbart (co-founder of the APA) playing an 8-ball tournament in c.1986. They were playing slop (no call). Those were the rules the pros were playing, so the APA rules were made with those rules in mind.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred...Larry Hubbart and Terry Bell founded the APA in 1979, so those "slop" rules were already firmly in place when you saw the tape of Larry playing in 1986. They were not changed afterwards! Also, you could not then, and may not now "slop" the 8ball in (under APA rules)...you have to call the ball and pocket...but only on the 8.

Scott

Fred Agnir
01-30-2003, 08:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Fred...Larry Hubbart and Terry Bell founded the APA in 1979, so those "slop" rules were already firmly in place when you saw the tape of Larry playing in 1986. They were not changed afterwards! Also, you could not then, and may not now "slop" the 8ball in (under APA rules)...you have to call the ball and pocket...but only on the 8.

Scott <hr /></blockquote>
I didn't mean to imply that the APA was founded in 1986 or that they changed their rules in any way. Sorry if I was confusing. I was saying(and I've stated this many times before) that when the APA was founded, they simply used rules that the professionals were playing.

More importantly, I was trying to illustrate that the professional 8-ball rules were slop rules at one time, and that there is precedence for changing rules of certain slop games to call-shot games.

Fred

Scott Lee
01-30-2003, 08:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I didn't mean to imply that the APA was founded in 1986 or that they changed their rules in any way. Sorry if I was confusing. I was saying(and I've stated this many times before) that when the APA was founded, they simply used rules that the professionals were playing.

More importantly, I was trying to illustrate that the professional 8-ball rules were slop rules at one time, and that there is precedence for changing rules of certain slop games to call-shot games.

Fred<hr /></blockquote>

Fred...I would agree with you that some things should be changed. The REASON that those rules were played that way back then, was that Terry Bell wanted to be buddy buddy with the Pro Billiards Tour Association...which was being run by Don Mackie (you remember THAT weasel?). Terry suggested that if they (the pros) played by the same rules as the amateurs (at least the ones in HIS league), there would be more syncronization between the pros and amateurs...serving to create a larger grass-roots following for pro pool! It never worked, but they have still not changed the rules.

Scott

Fred Agnir
01-31-2003, 08:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
Fred...I would agree with you that some things should be changed. The REASON that those rules were played that way back then, was that Terry Bell wanted to be buddy buddy with the Pro Billiards Tour Association...which was being run by Don Mackie (you remember THAT weasel?). Terry suggested that if they (the pros) played by the same rules as the amateurs (at least the ones in HIS league), there would be more syncronization between the pros and amateurs...serving to create a larger grass-roots following for pro pool! It never worked, but they have still not changed the rules.

Scott <hr /></blockquote>

Scott, I don't really know what you're talking about. I mean, I do know all of what you're talking about, but it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. You watched the 8-ball matches between Fats and Mosconi. There was no Don Mackey, Terry Bell or the PBTA, yet they played slop rules. In fact, they played old rules where you lose if you don't hit the 8-ball.

The 8-ball tapes I have from the 80's had nothing to do with the PBTA, Terry Bell, or Don Mackey. These were independent tournaments that had a bunch of pros, one happened to be Larry Hubbart. It wasn't Larry's tournament; he was just a participant. They played exactly the same rules as the APA (and I'm not saying they had anything to do whatsoever with the APA). That is, slop counts, no call, 8-ball isn't neutral, take what you make on the break, etc.

So, I don't think there is any reason to believe that professionals were playing 8-ball like the amateurs just for some kind of continuity and syncopation. They were playing like the amateurs because those were the rules, long before Don Mackey was in the picture.

Fred