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View Full Version : Thoughts on Simonis



01-27-2003, 12:05 PM
It seems to be the consensus that Simonis is the best cloth available to play on. Someone asked me the other day what kind of cloth they should get for their home table and my preprogrammed mouth automatically spouted "Simonis". Then I was thinking about an interview with Mike Sigel in BD a couple of years ago (at least). He made some interesting comments.

Although I don't know exactly which issue the interview was in, I remember him basically saying that anyone could play on the cloth and the tables they use today. I took that to mean Simonis and bigger pockets?

So I was kinda wondering if you all had any thoughts on Simonis and the tables of yore? Do you think they were that much tougher? I gotta tell ya, playin on a Diamond Pro is plenty tough for me.

Maybe someone still has that issue and can quote Sigel better than I did.

Chris

Wally_in_Cincy
01-27-2003, 12:17 PM
Can't quote that but Jim Rempe said the same thing on an Accu-stats tape I have. It's Rempe vs. San Souci, 2000 14.1 u.s. open (player reviewed by Rempe)

He was saying how back in his day you had to have a better stroke etc.

IMO since Simonis has become the benchmark these days it's probably the best cloth to practice or play on. That's assuming your tournaments are played on it.

01-27-2003, 12:22 PM
I don't have the Sigel article handy, but I can give you my opinion of Simonis. I prefer it hands-down, and have it on my home table. I chose it not only because it's the best (arguably) but because I was used to playing on it at my favorite PH (I don't play at bars anymore) which is probably a more convincing reason for it. If you like it, and you're used to it, then by all means buy it.

On that note, I had an interesting discussion with the mechanics who installed and covered my new Brunswick. Right off the bat they started complaining about Simonis cloth. One of the long-time arguments I've always heard in favor of worsted over napped cloth is durability -- that worsted cloth will outlast napped cloth 2 or 3 times. I read and hear this everywhere. These mechanics swore to me that the opposite was true. They disliked Simonis because they claim it is harder to install (doesn't stretch like napped), that it marks up worse than napped, and that it wears out much quicker. They basically had nothing nice to say about it. Of course this flies in the face of virtually everybody I've ever heard discuss Simonis, so I chalked it up a biased point of view from two installers who both admit to not being big pool players. They did an okay job of installing the table (not perfect, but then again I'm a perfectionist, so nobody would probably please me 100%), and I watched the whole process, so they obviously knew what they were doing.

I'm just curious -- has anyone else heard such negative comments about Simonis? And if so, why do nearly all players still prefer it?

David

Fred Agnir
01-27-2003, 12:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Alvey:</font><hr>
So I was kinda wondering if you all had any thoughts on Simonis and the tables of yore? Do you think they were that much tougher? I gotta tell ya, playin on a Diamond Pro is plenty tough for me.

Maybe someone still has that issue and can quote Sigel better than I did.

Chris <hr /></blockquote>
My big complaint about today's tables and some of the places you end up playing is that they are too easy. The faster worsted cloths allow anyone to (for example) draw the ball. Yes, Simonis (and Granito) are better cloths, but there's a plus and minus to that. I hate agreeing with Sigel, but this is one point I definitely do.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;oe=UTF-8&amp;selm=Olcj6.1139%24JS2.155427%40newsread2.prod.it d.earthlink.net

Fred

Fred Agnir
01-27-2003, 12:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> They disliked Simonis because they claim it is harder to install (doesn't stretch like napped), that it marks up worse than napped, and that it wears out much quicker. They basically had nothing nice to say about it. Of course this flies in the face of virtually everybody I've ever heard discuss Simonis, so I chalked it up a biased point of view from two installers who both admit to not being big pool players<hr /></blockquote>
I'm not a table mechanic. I'm not a fan of Simonis. Never really have been. It marks up too easily, and for the higher expense, it shouldn't do that. The fast low friction increases the skid potential as strangely enough, the chalk doesn't get cleaned off the cueball as readily. And, people with no stroke can still play on it. That's probably the thing I hate the worst about it.

OTOH, if worsted wool was the only choice, then Granito with its lower marking would be my choice.

Fred

Fran Crimi
01-27-2003, 12:40 PM
Fred, doesn't the Granito style that's supposed to be the most comparable to Simonis 860 actually play more like 760? If that's true, that would be no-stroke city. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Fran

Fred Agnir
01-27-2003, 12:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Fred, doesn't the Granito style that's supposed to be the most comparable to Simonis 860 actually play more like 760? If that's true, that would be no-stroke city. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Fran <hr /></blockquote>
Which one is that? Granito comes in many flavors, so I'm guessing that one of them comes in an 860 flavor. Maybe Basalt?

Fred

L.S. Dennis
01-27-2003, 12:57 PM
Fred,
I have Granito on my table and let me tell you that it DOES mark up quite easily. I've had it on for about 2 and a half years now and physically it's held up ok but it has slowed down tremondously. I beleive that Rempe and Sigel are correct when they say that these clothes play too easy, especcially when it come to the high runs in straight pool some of the players are getting these days.

As far as getting the ball to draw better, I've tried ironing the cloth and restretching it from time to time. If you really want your draw stroke to resemble that of Earl Strickland's try shooting the balls with a little silicone spray before playing sometime you won't be discourged!!!

Fran Crimi
01-27-2003, 01:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Which one is that? Granito comes in many flavors, so I'm guessing that one of them comes in an 860 flavor. Maybe Basalt?

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

I wish I knew which one it was. I played on it in a few places, and the first time I figured they just pulled the heck out of the cloth. But the second time I asked about it, and was told that it was the style that was supposed to be comprable to 860. I don't know...maybe it just stretches easier, but it was definitely playing like 760.

I seem to remember Dino saying something about it playing closer to 760, too. Oh, and I think I remember him saying there was a grade lower that plays slower than 860, but nothing in-between.

Fran

Fred Agnir
01-27-2003, 01:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote L.S. Dennis:</font><hr> Fred,
I have Granito on my table and let me tell you that it DOES mark up quite easily. I've had it on for about 2 and a half years now and physically it's held up ok but it has slowed down tremondously. <hr /></blockquote>

Generally, the higher the nylon content, the easier it would be to mark up due to the nylon burning. If I read correctly, the Granito Basalt would have the least nylon content of the Granito pool cloths, and therefore the least amount of marking. Compare to Granito Gneiss, which I would assume is one of the easiest to permanently mark up.

http://www.granitocloth.com/productos_familia.php3?familia=carded

All presumptions.

Fred

01-27-2003, 03:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I'm not a table mechanic. I'm not a fan of Simonis. Never really have been. It marks up too easily, and for the higher expense, it shouldn't do that. The fast low friction increases the skid potential as strangely enough, the chalk doesn't get cleaned off the cueball as readily. And, people with no stroke can still play on it. That's probably the thing I hate the worst about it.

OTOH, if worsted wool was the only choice, then Granito with its lower marking would be my choice.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>I don't know that I agree about the "people with no stroke can play on it" theory. I know plenty of people who dislike because it's fast and they can't control themselves on it. Of course, these are the neophytes, but it would seem to contradict the point that "anybody" can play on it. I feel more precise with a fast cloth, and IMHO such a cloth can actually exaggerate stroke defects.

But of course this all comes down to personal choice. I don't see that my Simonis 860 marks up all that much more than other cloths. But then again maybe it's because I've played almost exclusively on Simonis since taking up the game again after a 10+ year hiatus. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

But I think napped cloth marks up pretty bad too, although it's much easier to hide the marks because the brush raises the nap. My Simonis is new, only a month or so old, but it's had a few hundred racks broken on it and I can still brush out the marks pretty well. Even when marks do eventually become permanent, I like a table with that "seasoned" look, as long as it doesn't adversely affect gameplay.

I guess my main concern is, marking notwithstanding, is there any validity to my mechanics' assertion that Simonis wears out 2-3 times faster, when everywhere else in the industry I see/hear/read seems to claim that it wears 2-3 times LONGER than nap?

Oh, and on a slightly related note, this talk about nylon content and fast cloth reminded me of something. When I was stationed in Germany about 13 years ago I used to play on some local German bar tables that had a very strange cloth. It was usually a light pale green in color (almost turquoise), and had the feel and appearance of almost pure nylon or silk! It was very slick and even had a sheen to it. I hated that cloth! CB control was difficult to say the least -- you almost prayed for dead rails, otherwise the CB would never stop! Anybody here familiar with European tables know what type of cloth that may have been? I'm wondering if it was maybe a high nylon content Simonis-type cloth, maybe a 760 or 725? To my knowledge, I have never played on 760, so I'm not sure what it looks/plays like, unless this was it.

BTW, for those who don't already know, Simonis 860 is only 10% nylon, with the least nylon content of the Simonis cloths.

David

01-27-2003, 03:17 PM
I've never seen a silky cloth but then there are alot of things I haven't seen. Once, while in Huntsville, AL, I went into a store that had a very expensive mahogany table and the cloth on it had a very definitive pattern, almost like a plaid. The cloth was basically maroon with the pattern in dark green and navy. Anyone seen this before? I didn't think to even ask what it was. It may not have even been billiard cloth. Maybe just some piece of fabric.

Chris

01-27-2003, 03:36 PM
Chris,

Perhaps an errant Scotsman got hustled in Alabama and he lost his Kilts to the local proprietor. What else is he gonna do with all that material, other than recover his pool table, in the deep south?

Jimbo

L.S. Dennis
01-27-2003, 03:36 PM
Fran, the only 760 that I can remember playing on was the the 760 Tony Annigoni put on all the talbes at the then Cue Club (the old Cochran's room)and now Holleywood Billiards.

They were quite fast as I recall, it's been a while since I've been up there but fun to play on! I'd frequent that room more ofter if it were in a better part of town. Great room that has been in at least one pool movie that I know of. It was ok in the days that Welker owned it but in today's world where people want safe free parking it just doen't cut it. Too bad that room could have very easily been the one filmed in the hustler!