PDA

View Full Version : Average time for a race to 9?



03-15-2002, 02:15 AM
Hello all,

In your opinion, on the average, how long do you think it would take good players to complete a race to 9 in 9-ball?

jjinfla
03-15-2002, 05:16 AM
5 minutes per game. Jake

Chris Cass
03-15-2002, 07:08 AM
Hi Scott,
I play normally races to 11. It takes us usually 35 to 40 min, that's if my opponent doesn't go to the washroom. If he goes to the washroom, then it's 30 min. LOL

A race to 9 is about 30 min.
Regards,
C.C.~~doesn't take time to look when shooting. LOL

PoolFan
03-15-2002, 09:15 AM
5 minutes per game is an excellent average for 9-ball. I direct many tournaments from top 'B' level to opens. My rule of thumb for tournament scheduling are as follows:

Race to 7: 60 minutes
Race to 9: 90 minutes
Race to 13: 2 hours

Troy
03-15-2002, 10:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TheShot:</font><hr>
Hello all,

In your opinion, on the average, how long do you think it would take good players to complete a race to 9 in 9-ball?
<hr></blockquote>

At about 5 minutes per game a race to 9 could be 60-90 minutes depending of course on the actual number of games played. At 9-0, it would be quick, maybe 45 minutes. At 9-8, it could be about 90 minutes.

Troy

03-15-2002, 10:49 AM
Hello all,

Let me ask you this. Do you think an hour and twenty minutes is a fair time limit in a race to nine? This gives each game approximately 4 minutes and 40 seconds to be completed if the set should take all 17 games to decide.

Ken
03-15-2002, 10:52 AM
The Archer/Sambajon match averaged around 11 minutes per game and they were Sloooow (5 hours). If Charlie Williams is playing add an extra hour and put him off to the side so the other scheduled matches can be started on time. Pray to God that he loses or your tournament will get thoroughly screwed up. Ken in CT

03-15-2002, 11:10 AM
Hi Ken,
My idea to deal with slow play is as follows. During the "qualifying" (for example) part of the tourney (races 9) for all players,
If a match is not concluded in the alotted amount of time, the match will be over and frozen at the current score. After time runs out it will then be decided which player is most responsible for abusing time throughout the match, and that player will be penalized a fixed amt of match points. Example, Time is up score... player A 7, player B 6 Player A was conistantly playing slow which results in a 2-game penalty (per say) and player B is declared the winner of the match. IF a TD suspects any "stalling" throughout a match to protect a lead this player will be punished severely.

Jay M
03-15-2002, 12:32 PM
here's a simpler answer to stalling:

take a fixed time, say 90 minutes, and after that time period, put the players on a 30 second shot clock. One 10 second extension allowed per player per rack. Violations of the shot clock result in loss of turn and ball in hand for the opponent.

Jay M

cheesemouse
03-15-2002, 12:45 PM
Jay,
You beat me to it. In addition the known offenders should be pre-warned by the "TD" or his/her agents and given an opportunity to WD or except your God like authority. Word would spread. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Troy
03-15-2002, 12:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TheShot:</font><hr> Hi Ken,
My idea to deal with slow play is as follows. During the "qualifying" (for example) part of the tourney (races 9) for all players,
If a match is not concluded in the alotted amount of time, the match will be over and frozen at the current score. After time runs out it will then be decided which player is most responsible for abusing time throughout the match, and that player will be penalized a fixed amt of match points. Example, Time is up score... player A 7, player B 6 Player A was conistantly playing slow which results in a 2-game penalty (per say) and player B is declared the winner of the match. IF a TD suspects any "stalling" throughout a match to protect a lead this player will be punished severely. <hr></blockquote>

Scott... I know your question was to Ken, but if I may ---
Your approach might be OK in principal, but difficult if not impossible to enforce in practice. There would be no end to the complaints and as TD you would spend way too much time as mediator.

Another solution is a shot clock, but then you need people available to watch the shot clock.

I think a time limit is a reasonable compromise at which time a winner is declared.

However you choose, be sure to go over it in detail at the players meeting.

Troy...~~~ Been there, done that... /ccboard/images/icons/frown.gif /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Troy
03-15-2002, 12:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TheShot:</font><hr> Hello all,

Let me ask you this. Do you think an hour and twenty minutes is a fair time limit in a race to nine? This gives each game approximately 4 minutes and 40 seconds to be completed if the set should take all 17 games to decide. <hr></blockquote>

Sure, but I'd make it 90 minutes.

Another idea is to have pre-determined start times, as in "flights". For example, matches to start at 1:00PM, 3:00PM, 5:00PM, 7:00PM, etc..... This would give players time for a break and everyone would know the start time.

Troy... Again, been there, done that too..... /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

TomBrooklyn
03-15-2002, 01:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TheShot:</font><hr> If a match is not concluded in the alotted amount of time, the match will be over and frozen at the current score. ...it will then be decided which player is most responsible for abusing time throughout the match, and that player will be penalized a fixed amt of match points. ...IF a TD suspects any "stalling" throughout a match to protect a lead this player will be punished severely. <hr></blockquote>Your idea has merit Scott, /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gifbut applying it in practice could prove very tricky./ccboard/images/icons/frown.gif Without an accurate time measuring system, it may be difficult to determine who took more total time. Or it may be obvious who took more time, but unknown exactly how much more. Enough for a one game penalty or two? And how can a TD come close to accurately monitoring multiple tables at once plus take care of his other duties?

One awnser is to use a double shot clock used by chess players. Many chess players own their own, especially money players, and all tournements use them. They can be purchased for as little as $50, and they take all the guesswork out of how much time a player spends on his moves (shots). It consists of two clocks with a button on each. The button on the your clock is tapped at the end of every inning (not every shot) which stops your clock and starts your opponents clock. The clocks actually count backwards from the adjustable preset total time allowed to each player. (In chess, if you run out of time before the game is over, you lose; and time handicaps are often used in money games, though not in tournements.) Maybe fifty cents/match/player could be assessed by the TD to have him provide a clock, which would pay him back for his clock in fifty matches. Perhaps only players of unknown speed or known to be slow need be made to shoot with a clock.

03-15-2002, 03:11 PM
Hello all,

First off I want to again thank you all for your input.
As for my reasoning to a set time frame for matches, rather than a 30 second shot clock is to allow more time for a player to execute the really difficult, possibly the match deciding, shot. My opinion on an avg length of a 9-ball rack is 3 1/2 to 4 minutes. Granted there will be games that have multiple safeties played back and forth, but I still feel my avg length is fairly accurate.

Tom, I had the same thought as you last night about the time keepers you described, and I believe they would be an incredible asset to use them. They would also fall into the "Tournament Equipment Budget" So the expense would be the responsibilty of the organization.

Troy, I can see some merit in using a "Time Limit Final score" and let that stand and then if there is any suspiscion of stalling, to then penalize the guilty player.
Troy, Did you ever have a teacher in high school ever give you the "The final 10 minutes of class is just as an important as the rest of the time because, in a week it adds up to 1 hour of class time" speech?
I am telling you what, it applies to this wild ordeal.
I spent 4 hours last night organizing a rough draft of time slots and event fluency. It is unreal how important shaving that extra ten minutes is. I can tell you right now I have some challenges to be dealt with there as well. It was based on 250 players( which equals 25 flights of 10players) playing on 35 tables, in three and a half days(including eliminations). I am here to tell you it is scary.

Tom_In_Cincy
03-15-2002, 03:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>
Another idea is to have pre-determined start times, as in "flights". For example, matches to start at 1:00PM, 3:00PM, 5:00PM, 7:00PM, etc..... This would give players time for a break and everyone would know the start time.
Troy... Again, been there, done that too..... /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif <hr></blockquote>

Tony your suggestion has been the accepted way of playing races to 9 or 11 in the Pro Tournaments for years.

Only recently has new gimmick ideas been introduced.
1. The 45 second shot clock

2. Single races to additional games (race to 13 in the finals, rather than the winner of the one loss bracket having to win two races to 11 for a double elimination tournament finals)

3. Single elimination with one time buy backs for the loosers

4. Timed matches that who ever wins the most games during the alloted time.. wins the match

5. The races to 5 for a match win.. and first player to win two matches..

I think the new formats all are boring compared to the traditional Double Elimination or Round Robin Formats[my favorite]

Tom_In_Cincy
03-15-2002, 03:41 PM
Why just 9 ball? why not add an event for 8 ball also and 14.1, and one pocket..

There are a lot more 8 ball players that would be willing to pay to watch the Pros play their game than a game that is only played by the minority of pool players..

Only recently has the APA and BCA, and some lessor amature orgs.. added 9 ball as a team league.

Outside the box.. what you are working on has been done already... nothing new to see... just cost more.. more rules just complicate the entertainment value.

03-15-2002, 03:49 PM
Hi Tom,
I haven't ruled out any of those other games but for starters I am trying to concentrate on basing it on the most popular, fastest paced game. I love one pocket, I personally think it is the best pocket billiards game there is. Currently, if I was to try to think of a way to organize a high count entry one pocket tournament it would probably put me in the "nut-house" /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif

jjinfla
03-15-2002, 04:28 PM
Here are the times from 8 of the games from last night's re-run of Lee vs Corr.

5:06; 3:58; 1:48; 3:34; 3:38; 6:19; 2:19; 2:52; 4:17

Which comes to an average of 3:57.

The times are from the break to when the 9 drops so that does not take into account the time needed for racking - the time from when one game ends until the next one starts. Or the time for breaks. Jake

Ralph S.
03-16-2002, 02:45 AM
I personally like the idea of a set time limit for all matches. It seems to be the most practical and efficient method available. Also, I believe it would for the most part eliminate any complaints if strictly enforced.
Ralph S.

Doctor_D
03-16-2002, 06:13 AM
Good morning:

Average time for a Race to 9 at a WPBA event is 90 minutes.

Dr. D.