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View Full Version : The "Hard Gradient" Hybrid Tip Experiment



SpiderMan
01-29-2003, 04:19 PM
Check it out:

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/funkychateau/vwp?.dir=/Erwin+Cue&.src=ph&.dnm=Hard+Gradient+Tip.jpg&.view =t&.done

This is something I've been playing around with, and so far it's working out well. The concept is a tip with a crown section of a material chosen for grip, chalking, and feel characteristics, and the remainder built to have increasing density as you move toward the ferrule.

I've implemented this with a crown built of a medium-hard triangle, installed over an extra-hard section of water buffalo break tip, which in turn is installed over a hard fiber ferrule pad. The procedure was to install the extra-hard tip with the pad, then turn off all but about 2/5 on my lathe. Then I installed the triangle and cut it down to achieve a correct height for the overall tip.

So far, I really like it. The tip seems to retain all the action (restitution) of the hard tips, but the little bit of compliance provided by the buffer layer of hard buffalo lets it stay on the ball almost like an elk master. I chose the triangle as the crown layer because of all the medium-hard tips available, it seems to have the best chalk-holding (perhaps due to the coarse fibers).

Anyway, I now have two league nights and one long practice session on this combination. I can play the extreme edges without miscue for those very light finesse draws in straight pool, yet it's very lively for the more open games. And, after three sessions, it's still holding a dime contour. I'm going to keep shooting with it for a while and see what else develops.

Who knows, I may try another experiment using a Talisman as the top half. Since most of the Talisman separation failures seem to occur in the bottom third, replacing that with another material might cure the problem.

SpiderMan

Popcorn
01-29-2003, 05:35 PM
I have thought about your idea for a long time, ever since I first saw a layered tip. Make a tip layered in different materials based on their unique properties. I am amazed someone is not making such a tip.

SpiderMan
01-29-2003, 11:56 PM
Same here, I thought about a multi-layered tip with varying properties, but then I decided that the top section needed to be thick enough that it's characteristics wouldn't vary too much as it is gradually worn down or re-shaped.

So, the useful lifetime will consist of the time prior to when the top-layer sidewalls finally wear down to nothing. You then will rebuild, rather than replace, the tip by just adding a new top section.

SpiderMan

Rod
01-30-2003, 12:09 AM
The hard WB sounds like a good choice. Another base tip could be a champion, although there a bit expensive. They come with a red fibre pad and are hard. I only thought of them because I have a few. Which brings me to another thought. I have one shaft with a very hard tip. I might just cut it down and install a crown over it. That way as you well know you don't have to finish it to the ferrule.
Did you epoxy the two halfs?

I looked for those bumpers. Osco and Wallgreens have them but they are flat on one end. Didn't yours have a recess on both ends?

Rod
01-30-2003, 12:43 AM
I found your old post so I know whats happening now. These bumpers have a metal disc at the large end and I assume yours does to. I'm going to drill through that disc and epoxy a nut on the inside so it doesn't come loose. BTW these are on sale at Osco for 3.59 a pair less 25%. LOL
I need to do a little tip work and I ain't driving across town. While I'm at it I'm going to try your gradient tip idea, sounds good to me.

~~~ spidey, our resident inventor /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

TonyM
01-30-2003, 02:28 AM
Well that's an interesting idea. So the black area is the Buffalo, and the lighter area at the top is triangle?

Really then isn't the Buffalo area just a thicker slightly softer pad? (softer than a fiber pad that is).

Why not just use a more complient synthetic pad instead of the Buffalo? Like a urethane or hard rubber or something like that?

I've tried similar ideas myself in the past (using various thick pad-like materials) with mixed results. The top layer is the key for chalk holding ability and shape retention, while the underlying area can be used to "tune" the total hardness (CoR more specifically).

The main drawback seems to be that your total tip life is reduced due to the shorter height of the top layer.

For me this wouldn't be a problem, but for others it could be.

If you made the top layer taller, it would defeat the purpose somewhat, n'est pas?

Keep us informed!

Good post!

Tony

SpiderMan
01-30-2003, 10:59 AM
Rod,

The crutch tips that Sid and I bought were flat on the bottom with ridges. I cut the ridges off to make it very flat for glue attachment of the wooden disc that held the bolt. The metal disc that is inside at the "large" of a crutch tip end is so that when a crutch is inserted into the bumper it won't immediately cut through the rubber. On our crutch tips, this metal disc was actually a washer that was cast into the rubber, so it already had a hole in it!

We didn't actually use the hole for anything, though, because the shaft was basically secured into the round wooden disc that was glued onto the crutch tip.

(If someone notices this discussion seems off-topic in this thread, sorry, it's from a discussion of shaft-repair tools from a couple of weeks ago).

SpiderMan

Rod
01-30-2003, 11:24 AM
Spidey,
I'm buying the same tip. I'm just adding the nut for security just in case a glue only fitting breaks loose. Also another way to center the stud/bumper. No need to apologize these folks understand. Ok no tomato throwing! LOL

SpiderMan
01-30-2003, 11:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyM:</font><hr> Well that's an interesting idea. So the black area is the Buffalo, and the lighter area at the top is triangle?<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, that's correct.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyM:</font><hr> Really then isn't the Buffalo area just a thicker slightly softer pad? (softer than a fiber pad that is).<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, what I was going for was a gradient of density/hardness/energy dissipation, from hardest at the ferrule to less hard at the tip, but a reasonable amount of constant thickness at the crown so that it could have a practical lifetime despite retouching.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyM:</font><hr> Why not just use a more complient synthetic pad instead of the Buffalo? Like a urethane or hard rubber or something like that?<hr /></blockquote>

That would be a good idea, I think, if the right material could be found. But maybe a base made from a super-hard tip is pretty close. The reason it's currently in this form is that I already had the buffalo breaker on my play cue as an experiment. I was ready to cut it off and decided to try this before returning to my normal single-layer triangle. And I'd been playing with the buffalo for a week without it even forming a wrinkle in the polished sidewall, so it seemed like a reasonable starting point for the base.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyM:</font><hr> I've tried similar ideas myself in the past (using various thick pad-like materials) with mixed results. The top layer is the key for chalk holding ability and shape retention, while the underlying area can be used to "tune" the total hardness (CoR more specifically).?<hr /></blockquote>

That's what I was hoping for. I see a lot of "zing" off the tip when playing a little speed (CoR), yet last night I was stroking some extreme spin without miscue. Triangles are famous for chalk-holding, but I believe I've reduced the dissipation a little by making the bottom half of the triangle harder.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyM:</font><hr> The main drawback seems to be that your total tip life is reduced due to the shorter height of the top layer.?<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, that's a potential issue, at least for those users who would have run a regular tip all the way down to the ferrule. Clearly something like this would be for the person who pays more attention to their equipment. But, if you only use half of the tip anyway, it wouldn't be a problem.

Also I was thinking of what I might charge to make and install these (assuming I like it well enough to recommend). It seems to me that once the initial installation is done, then a worn tip could be "rebuilt" easily by just replacing the triangle (or talisman, whatever) crown. Sort of like recapping tires, cheap once you have the tire.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TonyM:</font><hr> If you made the top layer taller, it would defeat the purpose somewhat, n'est pas?<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, you are right. Actually, it did start out fairly tall, as shown in the picture. After hitting the first few balls I stopped and cut it down a little because the hit was softer than I wanted. For my taste, no more than about 60% of the total sidewall height should be triangle. I liked the firmness of the buffalo tip I was trying, but it just didn't have the grip or "dwell time" I like to feel when trying to finesse the cueball around in small patterns.

I do intent to try mounting half of a talisman on the buffalo base, just to see if that will cure the separation issues that plague the bottom third of talisman tips. Saw another one of those separations in an opponent's tip last night at league. Without a magnifier, most Talisman/Hercules users don't realize why their tips start going dead after a month or two.

SpiderMan