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01-29-2003, 09:18 PM
I'd like some input on what a ''push shot foul'' is.I've heard different renditions from players when in ''ring games,league play,tournaments'' etc.How's it played in your area? Also in b digest a while back, I read about the Jacksonville experiment,they took 1/1000 frame pictures that showed it was a push.opinions? thanks /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod
01-29-2003, 09:45 PM
An actual push foul is when the c/b and o/b are frozen. The stroke is pushed rather than an actual stroke. The others are a case of a double hit. Of course you can have a double hit on a push stroke if there is another ball in the way. A double hit is fairly easy to see. The c/b and o/b travel at near the same speed or the c/b travels to far. This happens when both balls are close together caused by the cue continuing through and hitting the c/b twice. There are other ways but this is most common.

Scott Lee
01-29-2003, 10:22 PM
Rod...Don't BCA rules state that two balls frozen together may be shot straight through, with no push foul? It's when there's ANY space, even a hair, that the foul comes into play. I believe the current rules state that if the CB moves forward,after contact with the OB, more than 1/2 inch (a half of a cube of chalk), it is considered a push foul.

Scott

01-29-2003, 10:51 PM
I agree with Scott, I think the ruling is that if the CB and OB are frozen, push shots are legal.

Rod
01-29-2003, 11:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Rod...Don't BCA rules state that two balls frozen together may be shot straight through, with no push foul?

Yes if it is a normal stroke "through" the c/b. My reference was to a 'push' stroke.


It's when there's ANY space, even a hair, that the foul comes into play. I believe the current rules state that if the CB moves forward,after contact with the OB, more than 1/2 inch (a half of a cube of chalk), it is considered a push foul.

I believe the rule is no farther through than 1/2 of the o/b, I'd have to check to be positive. It's just a matter of words but I call that a double hit as opposed to a "push" stroke. Of course an actual push stroke can cause a double hit. LOL You know what I mean by a push, you probably use it sometimes in your exibition. But you do tell them it is not legal. or? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott <hr /></blockquote>

01-29-2003, 11:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Rod...Don't BCA rules state that two balls frozen together may be shot straight through, with no push foul? It's when there's ANY space, even a hair, that the foul comes into play. I believe the current rules state that if the CB moves forward,after contact with the OB, more than 1/2 inch (a half of a cube of chalk), it is considered a push foul.

Scott <hr /></blockquote>


well, by the current rules, subject to change without notice or reason, it is ok to shoot straight thru if the balls are frozen.

there is huge confusion about the push and double-hit rules. the double hit rule is the one in the instructions to referees with the picture of the chalk cube. if the cue ball and the object ball are a chalk-cube or less apart then thne ref should pay special attention. first he should listen for the "clak" noise and then he should note if the c.b. rolls forward more than half way thru the space previously occupied by the o.b. (not 1/2" but 1/2 ball) then it may have been an illegal double. note the word "may".

the push rule has been cussed and rewritten to where it is now a push only if the cue-tip is in contact with the cue-ball for a period of time longer than that commensurate with a normal stroke. that's the bca's words, not mine.

you should know that nobody in any bar understands any of this stuff and being right will not aid your survival. might actually hurt.

dan

Rod
01-29-2003, 11:13 PM
Like I said Junior, you can not "push" even when balls are frozen. The key is in the definition of the phrase "push" stroke" Push is exactly what it means a push, it is not a normal stroke "through" the ball/balls. All I'm doing is defining strokes. In the case of balls close together a push will get you a foul as well as a stroke through.

Rod
01-29-2003, 11:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
HDJ, (not 1/2" but 1/2 ball) then it may have been an illegal double. note the word "may".
<hr /></blockquote>

Yes the key word is "may". I've seen some that end up that 1/2 ball and were not fouls but I've seen many that are and not called. It was their lucky day!

Alfie
01-30-2003, 02:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote houstondan:</font><hr> there is huge confusion about the push and double-hit rules. <hr /></blockquote> True, though I don't know why. In my neck of the woods most players call a double hit a push shot. They don't know what a real push shot is, and probably have never seen one.

Alfie
01-30-2003, 03:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote raceto7:</font><hr> I'd like some input on what a ''push shot foul'' is. <hr /></blockquote> Bring your tip up to the CB so slowly that, when you touch it, the CB does not rebound from it. Then accelerate the cue/CB together. It's like you're pushing the CB around. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

If the CB does rebound, no matter how slightly, and you touch it again with the cue, then you have a double hit foul instead.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote raceto7:</font><hr> Also in b digest a while back, I read about the Jacksonville experiment,they took 1/1000 frame pictures that showed it was a push. <hr /></blockquote> They showed what was a push?

01-30-2003, 09:24 AM
As I requested,there are a lot of different ideas on when a player pushes or double hits.In the league I play in,if the cb &amp; ob are frozen or nearly frozen(less than a chalk's width apart)and a player doesn't stroke the shot from 45 degrees to the left or right from the straight line of the frozen balls the shot is a foul.The double hit foul is the ref's judgement.These rules vary from league to league.I play v.n.e.a. league.In my post,I was curious about ''ring games,or texas express rules on this,when playing a race.thanks again for your input. Ron /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
01-30-2003, 09:42 AM
In our local APA league the double hit is never called. It's too subjective and the only time we have refs is in the annual Vegas-qualifying tournament.

Fred Agnir
01-30-2003, 09:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote raceto7:</font><hr> I'd like some input on what a ''push shot foul'' is.I've heard different renditions from players when in ''ring games,league play,tournaments'' etc.How's it played in your area? Also in b digest a while back, I read about the Jacksonville experiment,they took 1/1000 frame pictures that showed it was a push.opinions? thanks /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

The Jacksonville Experiment showed many things. One was the dreaded double-hit at close range(less than a chalk cube distance). This has nothing to do with a push shot.

A push shot doesn't have anything to do with any object ball. Just the tip and the cueball.

Fred

Fred Agnir
01-30-2003, 09:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> An actual push foul is when the c/b and o/b are frozen. <hr /></blockquote>

This isn't correct. A push foul has nothing to do with any object ball.

[ QUOTE ]
The stroke is pushed rather than an actual stroke.<hr /></blockquote>

This is correct.

That being said, the majority of times that anyone would ever use an illegal push stroke is when the balls are frozen. As long as you stroke in one continuous motion without pushing the balls, then shooting directly at a frozen pair is legal.


Fred

Fred Agnir
01-30-2003, 09:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> In our local APA league the double hit is never called. It's too subjective and the only time we have refs is in the annual Vegas-qualifying tournament. <hr /></blockquote>

In my not so humble opinion, if I had a say, I'd do away with the push shot foul and the double-hit foul. Whack away and pray. If someone can get position double-hitting or pushing, more power to him. Eliminating those two rules sure would create less refereeing headaches.

Fred &lt;~~~ double-hit to your heart's content

01-30-2003, 10:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> In our local APA league the double hit is never called. It's too subjective and the only time we have refs is in the annual Vegas-qualifying tournament. <hr /></blockquote>

It's never called in ours either. Our operator says its too tough to see. Our strongest league player says you can't see it but you can hear it (the double hit). And then half of the players don't even know what you're talking about even if you tell them the type of foul you are looking for. After playing in some local APA tournaments and not being able to get a foul called in that situation, I just gave up. I don't even ask for asnybody to watch it anymore /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif. If I ever make it to Vegas I sure will though.

Chris ~ Always mindful of potential fouls.

Wally_in_Cincy
01-30-2003, 10:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Alvey:</font><hr> ....And then half of the players don't even know what you're talking about even if you tell them the type of foul you are looking for..... <hr /></blockquote>

Probably more than half. For most the APA is the only organized pool they play, consequently they have never seen it called.

I too did not know until I started reading the CCB. In the big local tourney a couple years ago my captain and the other captain and the ref were discussing/arguing over a possible double hit by one of our players. The ref said "If I call it now it will be the first time it's been called in this league". Afterwards my captain came over and said to me "That other team said it was a pooch shot. What's a pooch shot?" /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rod
01-30-2003, 11:13 AM
Quite right Fred. I had my mind on the two ball scenario rather than the c/b itself.

Barbara
01-30-2003, 11:42 AM
Oooooooo!!! You think a double hit should be considered a legal hit?? The push shot, I agree with, it's more subjective than objective. But not a double hit. It's relatively easy to call a double hit involving the CB.

I don't know, Fred, you'd better hope I don't have to call a double hit at one of your matches in VF!!

Barbara~~~goes by the book! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

SpiderMan
01-30-2003, 12:06 PM
Scott,

When CB and OB are frozen, they may be shot straight through with no "double hit" foul. Double hit and push are two different animals. If you do a push on the cueball, whether or not it happens to be frozen to an object ball, I'd say it should be a foul. If the BCA rules are written such that they confuse push and double hit, well, it wouldn't be the first time they needed a little editing /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Rod...Don't BCA rules state that two balls frozen together may be shot straight through, with no push foul? It's when there's ANY space, even a hair, that the foul comes into play. I believe the current rules state that if the CB moves forward,after contact with the OB, more than 1/2 inch (a half of a cube of chalk), it is considered a push foul.

Scott <hr /></blockquote>

01-30-2003, 12:13 PM
As long as you stroke in one continuous motion without pushing the balls, then shooting directly at a frozen pair is legal.


Fred <hr /></blockquote>

few months ago i saw the push shot done to perfection. the guy had a strange style that caught my eye. on just about every shot, he would set up with the tip as close to the c.b. as possible then, with absolutely no back stroke, the guy would stroke forward with beautiful followthru, accelerating thru the shot. took me a while understand what i was seeing. he would get the c.b. attached to the tip and steer the thing till releasing it several inches later. flat out illegal push but the guy was so smooth it was deceptive. clearly, the guy isn't going to get any big english shooting that way but he had it working for him. tried it at home and never could get the hang of it. very difficult and, as i said, illegal as heck.


dan

Ryan
01-30-2003, 01:17 PM
To put it simply, we have some real "winners" in our area shooting APA. During the course of this session, we have had opposing teams attempt to call fouls on both a "push" and a "double hit".

The "push" in question had the CB and OB approximately 1" apart, and our player used what would be considered a "nip" shot with the tip striking the CB at about 1 tip below center. There was no chance of making the shot, so he shot just hard enough to hit the rail to avoid the foul. It was a perfectly clean shot, but the opposing team said that since the CB traveled forward, it was a "push". The balls weren't frozen, so what else was the CB supposed to do???

The "double hit" occured during one of my matches. I was taking a short, choppy practice stroke on a nip shot before striking the CB, and after I made the shot, the opposing team called it a "double hit". How could it possibly be a double hit if the CB was only struck once and it didn't draw back into the tip of the cue??? Their whole team was yelling how it was a "double clutch", but no one else could see anything that would indicate anything other than a clean hit.

On an another APA point, I get sick of teams that mark "defensive shots" when an S/L 4 or 3 legitimately misses a shot. We've had opposing teams mark defensive shots when our player had a legitimate miss on the 8-ball! How weak is that???

Okay, sorry about the rant, but I just can't stand teams that feel the need to pull those kinds of stunts to get by.

01-31-2003, 03:35 AM
I think everyone has the push shot in definetion pretty much covered just remeber people don't like to lose pool is 90% mental and only 10% phyical therefore if you have the brains in the matter you can out play the other person with safty play you have to watch the push shot because what you think is clean maybe but the other person will argue you down so just be careful.

Alfie
01-31-2003, 12:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote poolshark969:</font><hr> you have to watch the push shot because what you think is clean [...] <hr /></blockquote> Do you mean double hits?

(case in point)

heater451
01-31-2003, 02:12 PM
I agreen with Barbara, that the double-hit should be a foul--it's easier to listen for it, than it is to watch it. . . .

But, I thought that, if the CB and OB are frozen, you were allowed to 'push' through (?).


================

Fred Agnir
01-31-2003, 02:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> I agreen with Barbara, that the double-hit should be a foul--it's easier to listen for it, than it is to watch it. . . .

But, I thought that, if the CB and OB are frozen, you were allowed to 'push' through (?).<hr /></blockquote>
Yikes. When the balls are frozen, you're allowed to shoot through. You are not allowed to push through. These are very distinct terms written in the rulebook in attempt for clarification. Apparently, clarification is just a pipe dream.

Fred

Alfie
01-31-2003, 02:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote raceto7:</font><hr>(:pool rules:)<hr /></blockquote>WPA (world standardized)
http://www.wpa-pool.com/rules/rules3.htm
nos. 3.23, 3.24

Alfie
01-31-2003, 03:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> If the BCA rules are written such that they confuse push and double hit, well, it wouldn't be the first time they needed a little editing /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>I do agree some rules need work, but these two look all right to me. The people who confuse the two probably haven't actually read the rules (at least, in a while /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif). Those that have and yet call a double hit a push shot are just going along to get along, thus contributing to the problem.

IMO

heater451
01-31-2003, 05:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> I agreen with Barbara, that the double-hit should be a foul--it's easier to listen for it, than it is to watch it. . . .

But, I thought that, if the CB and OB are frozen, you were allowed to 'push' through (?).<hr /></blockquote>
Yikes. When the balls are frozen, you're allowed to shoot through. You are not allowed to push through. These are very distinct terms written in the rulebook in attempt for clarification. Apparently, clarification is just a pipe dream.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>Fred,

I pretty much meant "shoot", by the single quotes around "push"--although I'm still not perfectly clear about the actual "push".

From one of your earlier posts, you said that the push doesn't actually involve an OB. Could you explain how the 'push' works, as you see it?--I imagine it to be very stroke-oriented: if the cue is used like a spear, then it's a push, otherwise, a regular stroke counts as a 'shooting', does that make sense?

~~If the CB is frozen against an OB, inline to a pocket, I may try to shoot close to perpendicular to the correct line, or sometimes jacked up, but I usually just take another shot.


=====================

Alfie
02-01-2003, 01:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> Could you explain how the 'push' works, as you see it?--I imagine it to be very stroke-oriented <hr /></blockquote> offered as a suppliment to Fred's answer

http://www.wpa-pool.com/rules/rules3.htm
3.24 PUSH SHOT FOULS
It is a foul if the cue ball is pushed by the cue tip, with contact being maintained for more than the momentary time commensurate with a stroked shot. (Such shots are usually referred to as push shots.)

(NOTE- WPA does not consider a push to be a stroke.)

Here is an analogy. Suppose your arm is the cue and my head is the CB. If you punched me in the face that would be like a stroked shot. If you put your open hand over my face and shoved me back that would be like a push shot.

Here is another. Lets say I'm driving my car(the cue) at 30 mph and run into the back of your car(the CB) that is out of gas on the side of the road. That would be like a stroked shot. Now instead, if I pull up to you very slowly (slowly enough that when I tap your bumper our cars(cue and CB) stay in contact with each other) and then slowly accelerate the both of us together, that would be like a push shot.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> ~~If the CB is frozen against an OB, inline to a pocket, I may try to shoot close to perpendicular to the correct line, or sometimes jacked up, but I usually just take another shot. <hr /></blockquote> You may never push the CB, whether it is frozen on another ball or not. You may, however, use a normal stroke in any direction through a frozen CBOB pair.

3.23 FOULS BY DOUBLE HITS
If the cue ball is touching the required object ball prior to the shot, the player may shoot toward it, providing that any normal stroke is employed. If the cue stick strikes the cue ball more than once on a shot, or if the cue stick is in contact with the cue ball when or after the cue ball contacts an object ball, the shot is foul. (See Rule 2.20 for judging this kind of shot.) If a third ball is close by, care should be taken not to foul that ball under the first part of this rule.

Wait. After re-reading your last quote I think I'm answering a question you didn't ask.

John in NH
02-01-2003, 10:24 AM
Hi Fred,

The most controversial foul in pool has been the push shot, and this shot has led to more controversy than any other foul, I agree with your assessment that it should be eliminated, but I disagree with you about the double hit foul being eliminated because of the following conditions, when an obvious double hit occurs where the tip of the cue glances off the cb and strikes an ob and changes the direction of the ob (which is an obvious double hit), this is a foul which can easily be seen by a referee or an opponent in a match (this occurs when a player follows through too far on a shot).

Regards,

John

Fred Agnir
02-03-2003, 08:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote John in NH:</font><hr> Hi Fred,

The most controversial foul in pool has been the push shot, and this shot has led to more controversy than any other foul, I agree with your assessment that it should be eliminated, but I disagree with you about the double hit foul being eliminated because of the following conditions, when an obvious double hit occurs where the tip of the cue glances off the cb and strikes an ob and changes the direction of the ob (which is an obvious double hit), this is a foul which can easily be seen by a referee or an opponent in a match (this occurs when a player follows through too far on a shot).

Regards,

John

<hr /></blockquote>
The reason I'd like to see it eliminated really has nothing to do with whether or not it's an obvious foul. I mean, for example, we now know that almost every miscue that makes that annoying clank is actually a double hit, and that the ferrule or shaft slapping the cueball for the second hit is the noise you hear. Tell me, given your post, should we call every miscue a foul? I don't think so, therefore, I'm being consistent as to why I don't think any double-hits should be fouls.

Fred

Fred Agnir
02-03-2003, 08:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr>
From one of your earlier posts, you said that the push doesn't actually involve an OB. Could you explain how the 'push' works, as you see it?--I imagine it to be very stroke-oriented: <hr /></blockquote>
It's not how "I see it." It's how the BCA sees it. An illegal push stroke is exactly as named. It's when you push the cueball like you push dirt with a push broom. It has nothing to do with an object ball, and everything to do with the cueball and cue tip. It just happens to be that the frozen pair push shot is the most obvious situation to illegally push the cueball.

Fred