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Karatemom
02-01-2003, 08:35 PM
I've managed to catch the flu bug, so try to bear with me here.

You've got an open 8 ball rack. There are a couple of clusters that will need breaking out, and a few balls of each are on the rail, but other than that, no major worries. You pick yourself out a pattern to follow and begin to run the table.

You've hit the cb so that you've got a shot that you're not that comfortable taking. Now your faced with a discouraging situation. Do you take the shot that you should take to stay in your pattern, even if it is really tough for you, or do you take an easier shot where your might not be able to get out from?

I know there is always the safety to pull out from under your hat, but let's say that it's out of the question for now.

Heide

CarolNYC
02-02-2003, 05:38 AM
Hey Heide,
First,hope you get well soon-just got over the flu myself-UGH!
As for your question, patterns change,even for excellent straight pool players who just run and run...so,in reality, your pattern may have to change,your mind is always working,you may roll too far,draw back not enough,or what have you,so,my answer would be,do not take the shot unless you are ABSOLUTELY committed to making it,just that little bit of doubt,you'll miss!I call this the 50-50-90-if its a 50-50 chance your going to make the shot-its 90% probability you'll miss!It must be 100% making the ball,no doubt!Reaccess your pattern,take the shot you can make and if you cant get out,lock'em up!
Hope I explained that okay! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Carol

Ralph S.
02-02-2003, 05:47 AM
Heide, I try to always just stay in a 3 ball outlook position. Patterns can change very easily and if you stay in that 3 ball outlook, you can alot of times notice even easier patterns devolope. While it is good to look at the whole table pattern and know what you want to do, I suggest just staying with looking at 3 balls at a time. Hope this helps. Tell Chris I said hello.
Ralph S.

Leviathan
02-02-2003, 06:59 AM
Greetings, Ralph:

With respect, I don't agree that it's best to look just three balls ahead in 8-Ball. If you pocket three balls without considering the rest of the rack you can get lucky and be left with a good runout or a good safety, but you can also get unlucky and have nothing. And if you have nothing, you give your opponent a table you've obligingly cleared of blocking balls!

Sure, plans can change--and it's great to be flexible--but pocketing balls without a plan seldom gets one far against an opponent who has enough stuff to take advantage of an open layout.

IMO!

--D.M.

Karatemom
02-02-2003, 10:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph S.:</font><hr> Heide, I try to always just stay in a 3 ball outlook position. Patterns can change very easily and if you stay in that 3 ball outlook, you can alot of times notice even easier patterns devolope. While it is good to look at the whole table pattern and know what you want to do, I suggest just staying with looking at 3 balls at a time. Hope this helps. Tell Chris I said hello.
Ralph S. <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Ralph. Chris tells me to look at 3 ball patterns as well. Once you've pocketed a ball, look at the next 3 until you're done. I've been planning out the whole table lately and usually find myself in a bind at some point. Maybe too much at one time for me.

I will tell Chris you said hello.

Heide

Karatemom
02-02-2003, 11:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CarolNYC:</font><hr> Hey Heide,
First,hope you get well soon-just got over the flu myself-UGH!
As for your question, patterns change,even for excellent straight pool players who just run and run...so,in reality, your pattern may have to change,your mind is always working,you may roll too far,draw back not enough,or what have you,so,my answer would be,do not take the shot unless you are ABSOLUTELY committed to making it,just that little bit of doubt,you'll miss!I call this the 50-50-90-if its a 50-50 chance your going to make the shot-its 90% probability you'll miss!It must be 100% making the ball,no doubt!Reaccess your pattern,take the shot you can make and if you cant get out,lock'em up!
Hope I explained that okay! /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Carol <hr /></blockquote>

Hiya Carol. I try to be 100% sure on every shot, but it just doesn't turn out that way all the time. So what I'll do is, even if I don't make it, I'll make sure to leave the cb in a safe position so that even if I do make it, I have a shot to leave him safe.

Thanks girl. Actually, I feel worse, but I still have laundry to do today, /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Heide

02-02-2003, 11:06 AM
Here is a free 8-Ball lesson that should improve the number of times you run out. Do your best to leave an open ball at each end of the table early in your pattern. Use each of these balls as an escape from trouble. Shoot shots early in your pattern that will allow you to both break out clusters of your balls and to pocket balls that are more difficult such as those frozen to a rail. It is particularly useful to have a very easy shot left on your last ball to pocket prior to the 8 ball since once you have reached this point in the game you should not expect another (makeable) shot dependent on the skill level of your opponent. Develope a pattern each time you step up to the table that would enable you to run out not just the next 3 balls. Always break out clusters of "your balls only" early and leave clusters containing both yours and your opponents balls until you are confident you are able to run out. As far as advice on safety play I have very little, I am very agressive at 8-ball and feel offense wins more than defense once you have achieved the level of skill required to run 8 balls in a row. Lastly, always be willing to adjust your pattern, after every shot if necessary, particularly when you are breaking up clusters of balls. Good luck with your 8-ball game and I hope this helps some.


Jimbo

Karatemom
02-02-2003, 11:20 AM
That sounds like some good advice to me. I do try to leave clusters of opposing balls til I'm sure I can get out, and do try to leave an easy last shot before the 8. I, too, am very aggressive and don't like playing safeties, but unfortunately, am not good enough to run the table consistently yet and if I don't play safe or miss a shot and leave my opponent open, he's usually out.

Heide

Jon from MN
02-02-2003, 12:30 PM
Leviathan If your always playing 3 balls ahead you do have a plan. great players are the ones who make great adjustments. If you cant adjust then you have NO chance against the top players. jmo Jon

Leviathan
02-02-2003, 01:45 PM
Hi, Jon:

I think that the great players plan as thoroughly as they can and then adjust brilliantly when adjustments are called for. Maybe you'd agree with that--if so, I'm reading you wrong and I apologise for my thickheadedness. But if you actually think that it's better not to have plans for dealing with problems and opportunities more than three shots down the road, I think you're mistaken.

Imagine, if you will, that we're playing a game of checkers: I can set traps five moves ahead; you never look for traps more than three moves ahead, 'cause you like to improvise. I can see traps five moves ahead; you never set traps more than three moves ahead, 'cause you like to improvise. You're gonna have a tough time winning this game of checkers!

If you consistently beat good players without considering problems and opportunities that lie more than three shots down the road, I salute you. I can't do that. I'm most effective when I plan farther ahead.

Regards,
--D.M.

cheesemouse
02-02-2003, 02:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> Hi, Jon:

I think that the great players plan as thoroughly as they can and then adjust brilliantly when adjustments are called for. Maybe you'd agree with that--if so, I'm reading you wrong and I apologise for my thickheadedness. But if you actually think that it's better not to have plans for dealing with problems and opportunities more than three shots down the road, I think you're mistaken.

Imagine, if you will, that we're playing a game of checkers: I can set traps five moves ahead; you never look for traps more than three moves ahead, 'cause you like to improvise. I can see traps five moves ahead; you never set traps more than three moves ahead, 'cause you like to improvise. You're gonna have a tough time winning this game of checkers!

If you consistently beat good players without considering problems and opportunities that lie more than three shots down the road, I salute you. I can't do that. I'm most effective when I plan farther ahead.

Regards,
--D.M. <hr /></blockquote>

Leviathan,
A monkey can move a checker from one square to another without getting out of line. Thinking farther ahead than what is nescessary, normally the three ball run picking up a ball with each ball pocketed, is a simple and efficient way to play high level pool without all the clutter and stress of trying to play perfect patterns. LET'ER BUCK POWDER RIVER&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;EHAAAAAAAA.......LOL LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Leviathan
02-02-2003, 03:04 PM
Hiya, Cheese:

Nice to hear from you. Okay, you've convinced me. You guys are right and I was wrong: it's better not to plan more than three shots ahead in 8-ball. I was crazy not to see it.

Look--on another subject altogether--do you ever play chess? For money?

Just kidding! I play chess even worse than I play pool, which is really saying something. And that, I promise you, is my last word on this topic.

Regards,

--Duke Mantee /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

cheesemouse
02-02-2003, 03:32 PM
Duke,
I'm not kidding. I have been fools mated not once but twice....so sure I play chess for money...LOL LOL...

Jay M
02-02-2003, 05:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think that the great players plan as thoroughly as they can and then adjust brilliantly when adjustments are called for. Maybe you'd agree with that--if so, I'm reading you wrong and I apologise for my thickheadedness. But if you actually think that it's better not to have plans for dealing with problems and opportunities more than three shots down the road, I think you're mistaken.<hr /></blockquote>

I disagree with you. Here's how the game is played on the upper levels.

First you identify problems. Blocked lanes, balls with no pocket, clusters with no shot, that kind of thing.

Next you identify the problem that is going to be the easiest to get to from your current position and identify the "key" ball to solving the problem.

Then you identify the shortest path to get on your key ball. You don't want to take any more non-problem balls off the table than you have to in order to solve the problem.

You shoot the first ball to start the pattern and then reevaluate your position after each shot until you don't have any problems left.

Finally you identify the easiest out pattern, the one with the least amount of cue ball movement necessary, and shoot it.

The bottom line is that you solve the problems early, while you still have other balls to use to bail yourself out of trouble if you get out of line. Never try to think more than one ball past the breakout or problem. Solve that problem, then move to the next. The leave after most breakouts is unpredictable so you need to have a shot left somewhere else on the table that doesn't rely on the break.

Jay M

Fran Crimi
02-02-2003, 11:49 PM
Hi Heide,

Boy you ask some tough questions. LOL

I think that getting out of line is part of the game. The balls are rolling, we're only human, things happen. I think what you need to do when you get out of line is to re-evaluate the entire layout as if you are just coming to the table from the chair. The old plan is gone, and it's time to formulate a new game plan. Your new plan could integrate parts of the old plan, but you have to forget about what you had in mind before, and start the decision process all over again. Often times it's going to involve not getting out that inning. Well, then so be it.

Part of the problem is in accepting that the situation has now changed, and you're in a worse position than you could have been had you gotten to where you wanted. If you can get past that and stay objective, you'll make the right decision.

It's not easy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Fran

Karatemom
02-02-2003, 11:58 PM
Thanks for the reply. It might not be an easy thing to do, but you sure make it sound easy. Like I don't have enough trouble getting on the darn balls as it is, LOL. I might ask some tough questions, /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif, but I know I can get the answers I need from you and everyone else here. Oh, and Chris, too, LOL.

Heide

02-03-2003, 02:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Karatemom:</font><hr> Do you take the shot that you should take to stay in your pattern, even if it is really tough for you, or do you take an easier shot where your might not be able to get out from?

Heide
<hr /></blockquote>

you've really answered the question yourself. take the easy shot and try to make what you can of it. if you absolutely have to win the game then you can't take any really tough (your words) shots. you can't risk leaving the table on a miss unless you've set up that shot to resolve safely if you do miss and you took that out of the question.

dan

Fred Agnir
02-03-2003, 08:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> Greetings, Ralph:

With respect, I don't agree that it's best to look just three balls ahead in 8-Ball. <hr /></blockquote>
I agree with you Leviathan that the "3-balls ahead" approach can be short-sighted in 8-ball. It might be great for an open 9-ball rack, but not 8-ball. IMO, every time you plan on running an 8-ball rack, you have to have a plan for the whole rack, not just parts of it.

Fred

Wally_in_Cincy
02-03-2003, 08:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I agree with you Leviathan that the "3-balls ahead" approach can be short-sighted in 8-ball. It might be great for an open 9-ball rack, but not 8-ball. IMO, every time you plan on running an 8-ball rack, you have to have a plan for the whole rack, not just parts of it.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

It depends on your skill level IMO. Since I get out of line about 80% of the time when trying to run a complete rack I have to formulate a new plan often. Many times I do not strain my brain planning the whole rack unless it's a road map.

Wally~~850 mi. west of Taxachussetts /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Rod
02-03-2003, 12:09 PM
Hi Heide,
Hope your feeling better now. I got over mine just last week.

If you go for the tough shot you may not be able to stay in your pattern anyway. OTH shooting the wrong ball just takes away another option plus clears the field for your opponent. If there is a good safety available after that ball then it may not be the wrong ball. As mentioned when a plan goes wrong you have to evaluate each change by starting over.

If I could get back in line by making the tough shot then I'd use that option. Providing a good safety or runout was not an good option if I shot the other ball. It still leaves both balls on the table should I miss. I don't rely on luck but you never know what can happen with the extra traffic out there.

You have to evaluate your choices by your skill level. If there is not a safety, or the safety is just as tough before or after shooting the other ball, and no runout in sight by shooting the other ball. Then I'll always shoot the tough shot first. I'd rather have an option to win than shoot myself into a corner which there is no escape.

Rod

Karatemom
02-03-2003, 12:36 PM
Hi Rod. Thanks, but I'm feeling worse as every minute passes. Should've stayed home from work today.

If I have a ball that is blocking a pocket, and would be an easier shot than my current shot, then I try to make the harder one, just in case I can't get out, my opponent will have trouble pocketing that ball.

I think you're right about the skill level though. There's plenty I can't do that most of my opponents can. There's where I mess up. I constantly think to myself that if they can do it, so can I. Sure, in a few months maybe, LOL.

Thanks,

Heide