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SecaucusFats
02-03-2003, 11:20 PM
I've got my own opinion(s) on the subject but I'd really like to hear from a lot of you. So what do you think makes a winner in pool? Any, and all, opinions are more than welcome!

Chris Cass
02-03-2003, 11:57 PM
Someone who can spend most of their life, in the loser bracket and still think they played good.

Regards,

C.C.

Popcorn
02-04-2003, 08:47 AM
I think any player that can dependability play their speed under pressure is a winner, most players can't. They have highs and lows but you can't bet on them. They need the ability to perform when it counts. I have known average players I would put my money in the right game and highly skilled players, I would not bet on in a lock. A real player will rise to the occasion. Every room has a guy, that looks like they never miss a ball, but beyond the practice table is useless. Not a player, no matter how good they appear to play.

Eric.
02-04-2003, 09:17 AM
Heart. I know this covers alot of ground. To give ya the Reader's Digest version:

The ability to play at top speed whether you are ahead or behind.

Staying focused from start to finish.

Not panicing when behind, not sleepwalking when ahead.

Having a fifth of Vodka on hand, in case all of the above fails. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Eric

Rich R.
02-04-2003, 11:10 AM
IMHO, a winner never believes they have lost a match, until the final ball falls.
For example, I watched a local tournament match this past weekend. A good local player was down 1-5, in a race to 7, against Keith McCready. The local stayed cool, got to the table and started winning games. McCready never got another clear shot and never won another game.
Although that guy didn't win the tournament, he showed that he had a lot of heart and demonstrated what it takes to be a winner.
As Yogi said, "It ain't over, until it's over."

Vapros
02-04-2003, 11:37 AM
There are different levels of winning. A lot of it is done at the lower levels, because that's where the most players live, and it's good that some winning is available to them. However, it's a sad fact that one can also be a winner by digging in among the people one can beat, and then staying there. We see it all the time. Big fish in small ponds. If a genuine player comes in, they may leave by the bathroom window. Not real winners at all.

Most of my experience has been in another sport, but I think your question about winning is the same as being good in the clutch. It's the ability to bear down mentally and focus on the shot at hand, while remaining loose and making your best physical motion.

Sid_Vicious
02-04-2003, 02:33 PM
I'll probably sound crude here, but I wonder whether a near to total lack of human compassion when competing is much of the key. It seems to me that the focus of the consistent, relentless winners are very many times the ones with an almost fever to defeat sonething or somebody. I personally am on the other side of that spectrum and in being so I feel that I lose games against weaker players that I should really win. It's not as if I am consciously feeling sorry for them, but subconsciously it does happen. The "killers" in this sport would hammer Grandma just as hard as any road player they might find themselves playing. Just my 2c...sid

9 Ball Girl
02-04-2003, 03:04 PM
I used to feel the same way. I would lose matches not on purpose, but because my opponent happened to be my friend and I would wind up chatting while I was playing. Real friendly like you know? Well, I've learned that it doesn't matter who I'm playing, whether it be my sister, mother, best friend, I'm going for the kill! I will not speak to them. I won't even say "nice shot". I'll tap my cue instead. I won't take my eyes off the table. If I start to look at my surroundings to see who's around or see who's watching me play, then I'm in trouble.

Vapros
02-04-2003, 03:12 PM
It's a fact, if we'll just stop to think about it, that losing is a lot more peaceful than winning. You get a lot less crap to put up with, and avoid a lot of hard feelings. To make your best effort to win, you have to be ready to shrug off that stuff and not let it bother you.

Sid_Vicious
02-04-2003, 03:17 PM
Every once in a while somebody will really hit a nerve with me, some accusation, embarrassing or degrading comment or contention that I fouled when in fact it was PERFECT, and I will put a mad on and really play hot. As long as I maintain that anger I shoot lights out, I don't talk, but the thing is I don't feel right way down deep after the day has ended. I'm guessing I will always be several notches below the elite,,,I'll still play and I'll have fun, and even win more than I lose in the long run. Nothing against your demeanor with this,,,I'd rather play a looser, more care free opponent. Give me Efren before Allison, he smiles and jokes. There's something I can relate to there...sid

Tom_In_Cincy
02-04-2003, 03:56 PM
Simple answer:

A winner is someone that has WON. They have been there at the top. Won a league, tournament or tough matchup. They know that they can win. They know that they will win. And, they also know that others 'know' that they it will take their best game to beat them.

Rod
02-04-2003, 04:22 PM
Well Sid,
I would have hammered granny for taking me on those world series bets when I was a kid! I would have done so after taking up pool. To bad she wasn't around I would have drilled her! LOL

~~~ those granny's are tough action

NH_Steve
02-04-2003, 05:06 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm a serious player (and respectable at One Pocket /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) and I fight tooth and nail over the last ball every game, but...

Well, I know I win -- and lose, fairly regularly, and fortunately reasonably evenly. Oh, I'm happy to gamble, and am definitly not a 'locksmith', but I always keep the wager within my means. 'Course I'm not trying to make a living playing pool /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif . But what pops into my mind right away is that I have been thoroughly enjoying playing pool the last year and a half -- and to me that makes me a 'winner'. I see so many players constantly kicking themselves over how they played, or why they lost -- they are clearly not enjoying themselves. I feel like I have finally come to peace with my level of play, and I'll take that any day of the week over 'winning' a couple more games now and then...
JMHO

Tom_In_Cincy
02-04-2003, 05:48 PM
How very true Steve.

If you pay your hard earned entertainment dollars to be upset and kick yourself all over the place.. why bother.. ?

This is a game that can be enjoyed win or lose. But, you have to admit.. wining does feel better than losing..

bluewolf
02-04-2003, 06:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Simple answer:

A winner is someone that has WON. They have been there at the top. Won a league, tournament or tough matchup. They know that they can win. They know that they will win. And, they also know that others 'know' that they it will take their best game to beat them. <hr /></blockquote>

I see this too. Like success breeds confidence. OTOH, what about the beginner who has to go through those growing pains and times of not being so good, what makes that person confident that they will be good? We got one in our league like that. No matter how many matches he lost or balls he missed, he always saw himself winning and saw the hard shots going in and saw himself going up the apa ladder.It did not matter to him what others thought, he believed. I feel honored and enjoy very much seeing him get better every week and know he is a winner.

blu

Tom_In_Cincy
02-04-2003, 07:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr>

I see this too. Like success breeds confidence. OTOH, what about the beginner who has to go through those growing pains and times of not being so good, what makes that person confident that they will be good? We got one in our league like that. No matter how many matches he lost or balls he missed, he always saw himself winning and saw the hard shots going in and saw himself going up the apa ladder.It did not matter to him what others thought, he believed. I feel honored and enjoy very much seeing him get better every week and know he is a winner.

blu <hr /></blockquote>

Blu... that's not a winner.. its just an attitude. You still have to WIN to be a winner.
A Great attitude will surely help you get to your goal of being a Winner. Positive attitudes breed confidence and willingness to become better (practice). Its a lot easier to assist someone that has a good attitude and appreciative of constructive critism. But, it still doesn't label them a Winner.

Steve - Detroit
02-04-2003, 07:42 PM
Great thread and great replies. I think Tom in Cincy and Popcorn said it best, winners just win. Its not a fear of losing that motivates them its the lack of fear of winning. The thoughts that Sid and 9 Ball Girl mentioned never cloud their thinking, never. They don't fold or rattle under pressure, they play above themselves, if that's what it takes. They just know how to win.

snipershot
02-04-2003, 09:46 PM
I'll make it simple,

will, determination, guts, smarts, patience, desire, and determination once again just to name a few.

bigbro6060
02-04-2003, 10:49 PM
Winners are also fiercely competitive and HATE TO LOSE !

often players play well, lose a close match and come away saying "I'm happy, i played well, i was unluckly" whereas a mega competitive person will just hate the fact that they lost

Michael Jordan is said to be amazingly competitive in everything and just hates to lose. We all know how much of a winner he is

cheesemouse
02-05-2003, 12:26 AM
If a picture is worth a 1000 words then that 2 ball shot that Corey Duel rolled out to in the Mosconi Cup tells the tail. He rolled out to a nearly impossible shot under extreme pressure and then step up and hit it perfect. To me a winner is someone who plays their best under the most pressure and they know it...

NH_Steve
02-05-2003, 06:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> How very true Steve.

If you pay your hard earned entertainment dollars to be upset and kick yourself all over the place.. why bother.. ?

This is a game that can be enjoyed win or lose. But, you have to admit.. wining does feel better than losing.. <hr /></blockquote>Tom, man you hit the nail on the head "wining" feels better! LOL -- isn't that spelled whining ?!

Ok, maybe I have been winning a little more than losing. But mainly I have been having a real good time, especially with the game of One Pocket. If it wasn't for One Pocket, well I just don't know... I'm sure I wouldn't drive the 75 miles each way to play that I go through now.

One Pocket -- it brings all the qualities of every other pool game in spades, plus offers strategy like chess!

bluewolf
02-05-2003, 06:46 AM
He does win. He wins allmost every week at his APA level. He has also won at the local handicapped tournament, defeating several APA 7s.

So while he does not win big tournaments, he does win.

Is a person who wins at the semi-pro level a winner?
Is a person who wins at the league level a winner?
Is a person who wins at the pro level a winner?

I am a little confused about this.

blu

=k=
02-05-2003, 08:22 AM
steve i started playing 1-p to improve my banks, little did i know enjoyable this game would be. as to orginal question, i know i feel like a winner when i finish a game, knowing i played the best i can. the more i drill the better i focus. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

SPetty
02-05-2003, 10:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> Having a fifth of Vodka on hand, in case all of the above fails. <hr /></blockquote>Eric... Eric... Eric... (shaking head slowly) Have I taught you nothing?

SPetty~~~It's tequila, dude! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

SPetty
02-05-2003, 10:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote NH_Steve:</font><hr> But what pops into my mind right away is that I have been thoroughly enjoying playing pool the last year and a half -- and to me that makes me a 'winner'. <hr /></blockquote>Yes, Yes, Yes! By Jove, I think he's got it!

Eric.
02-05-2003, 12:57 PM
Well Susan, like they say, "Choose your weapon" /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Eric &gt;had my share of TaKillYa sunrises

Ross
02-05-2003, 05:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> If a picture is worth a 1000 words then that 2 ball shot that Corey Duel rolled out to in the Mosconi Cup tells the tail. He rolled out to a nearly impossible shot under extreme pressure and then step up and hit it perfect. To me a winner is someone who plays their best under the most pressure and they know it... <hr /></blockquote>

Too bad he scratched on the 8 in the same game. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif Does that make him a woser or a linner?

SecaucusFats
02-05-2003, 08:51 PM
Some excellent observations by all of you!Thank you.

Here's my take on winning:

A winner is someone who wins, and wins often. Nothing else matters--it's a game. This doesn't mean one has to be a swaggering buffoon either. But you do have to have the desire and the mindset to do whatever it takes to win (within the rules, of course). This is the product of long hours of practice, and playing for years.

You have to know when to play a safe and why, and when to run out. You have to survey the entire table on each and every shot before deciding what to do. You have to go deep within and focus on nothing but the game. And when you have to cinch a tough shot in a make or break situation,you gotta have the heart to shoot the shot like you damned well own it and rip your opponent a new one. ( A shot like that can increase anxiety in your opponent--a good thing. Two will leave him cursing you out under his breath pulling his hair out in the chair. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif)

Oh and one other thing..you gotta know how to give or get weight. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Just my opinion.

Fats

Hopster
02-05-2003, 09:07 PM
I think a good example would be Willie Mosconi. the man played like he was on fire and absolutely hated anything less than perfection.
Every opponent was the enemy and no one got any slack. The killer instinct is what makes a consistent winner, never back off and never say die. You got someone stuck 99-1 in a 100 point straight pool match , try like hell not to let them get to 2.