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02-04-2003, 07:28 AM
Hi Everyone,

Was wondering if anyone has any comments about Diamond Billiard Tables, the pro ones. Haven't heard much about them but they say they are the "players choice".
Am trying to deceide between a Gold crown and the Diamond.
thanks

cheesemouse
02-04-2003, 07:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote good2:</font><hr> Hi Everyone,

Was wondering if anyone has any comments about Diamond Billiard Tables, the pro ones. Haven't heard much about them but they say they are the "players choice".
Am trying to deceide between a Gold crown and the Diamond.
thanks
<hr /></blockquote>

good2,
You heard right. The Diamond people and their table are special and top of the line. If you get the Diamond light along with the table you have the Caddy.

02-04-2003, 08:19 AM
good info and thanks, though surprised.
Anone know how the table plays? How are the cushions?
How come we don't hear as much about them? Small company?
Always thought the Gold Crown was the top table out there?

Joe Marra
02-04-2003, 09:28 AM
If you are interested a have a couple of Gabriels Pool Tables for sale at a good price, contact me and I will send photo and specifications to you. Thanks Joe Marra 561-945-4448

Ken
02-04-2003, 10:01 AM
I believe they are shipping with the Artemis cushions as standard. Those are considered among the best available. A lot of tournaments are being played on Diamonds and their objective is to make a bar box play just like a pro table. Many of the BCA tournaments are going to Diamond and they may be used in the large tournaments when the current contract for Valleys runs out.

The prices on Diamonds are considerably less than Gold Crown IV but you would probably get a hefty discount off the manufacturer's price from Brunswick.

Apparently the GC IV corrected some of the problems of the GC III and many rooms are getting them but Diamond is making some inroads into the poolroom market.

Go to the website for more info:

http://www.diamondbilliard.com/

I have heard that if they are delivering to your region they will stop and set up your table. That's a good idea since table mechanics don't have a lot of experience with Diamond tables. A local room got 21 Diamonds and most of them need releveling but it is about time to recover them anyway.

There's a lot of competition now for the commercial market. Gabriels make a table that is virtually a copy of the Diamond from the slate up. The undercarriage is metal instead of wood. They have a system to level the table by tightening the frame. I guess the metal frame can bend whereas wood doesn't tend to bend but this does permit fine adjustment to flatten the surface. I don't know what pocket size the Gabriels has but the one I played on seemed to play too easy. You can probably get whatever you want. I haven't heard any criticism about how any of these tables play.
KenCT

eg8r
02-04-2003, 12:32 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If you get the Diamond light along with the table you have the Caddy. <hr /></blockquote>
Agreed.

eg8r

eg8r
02-04-2003, 12:37 PM
Billy Weirs Sky High Billiards here in Ft Worth has all Diamond Pro tables. They are great. The tables are beautiful and play great. The tables at the pool hall have pretty tight pockets and I think that is the best way to go.

As far as not hearing much about them, I say just look around. The Derby City Classic is a Diamond run event and I thought there were some other major tournaments that use Diamond.

eg8r

Fred Agnir
02-04-2003, 12:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote good2:</font><hr> Hi Everyone,

Was wondering if anyone has any comments about Diamond Billiard Tables, the pro ones. Haven't heard much about them but they say they are the "players choice".
Am trying to deceide between a Gold crown and the Diamond.
thanks
<hr /></blockquote>
I like the Diamond Pro over the Gold Crown IV. Although the Gold Crown IV is a ton better than any previous Gold Crown.

For my money, however, I'd go with a Gabriels.

Fred &lt;~~~ Gabriels fan

02-04-2003, 12:50 PM
Thanks for all the info, sounds like a great table.

What is a good price for the Diamond Pro table?

02-04-2003, 01:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote good2:</font><hr> Hi Everyone,

Was wondering if anyone has any comments about Diamond Billiard Tables, the pro ones. Haven't heard much about them but they say they are the "players choice".
Am trying to deceide between a Gold crown and the Diamond.
thanks
<hr /></blockquote>

i'm curious, what kind of prices are you getting quoted on the 9' g.c.4? i'm told they are going crazy. i've a crown and after almost 2 years i'm happy as a clam but they may be pushing the price too high.

the only bad new i've heard was from an operator who used to post here (chris in n.c.) as he was replacing them with garbriels he finally admitted some issues with the pockets as i remember. i think everyone agrees that diamonds are good equipment.

remember, the table used at a tourney is not the choice of the pros; it's the choice of the promoter and is a business decision .

dan

02-04-2003, 01:46 PM
I've been looking for a tourney table to come available.
A friend got a GC that way. Diamond is sponsoring some events nearby so that may be a possibility.
So haven't gotten anything but list prices on the GC

Ken
02-04-2003, 02:12 PM
Dan. Chris was replacing his Connelly tables with Gabriels. He had a Gabriels there the last time I stopped in. The Connelly tables are beautiful tables with 2 inch slate but they had a couple minor problems. The pockets would spit out the balls and the balls had a tendency to bounce off the tables. Still, I never found out why he was replacing them other than it was time for a change. He also sold Connelly tables so he might have had buyers for them. I have never seen a Gold Crown there. I think the Connelly tables were more of an upscale home table and not really suitable for commercial use. Maybe a bit too vulnerable to abuse and the thick slate resulted in too many balls bouncing around the room.

The GC IV is a great table but costs twice what the Diamond costs. Brunswick now sells a light that looks just like the Diamond light and it too is twice the price.
KenCT

eg8r
02-04-2003, 04:21 PM
I have to say, I miss seeing Chris' posts. I think he is one of the rare posters that actually leaves when they say they are going to. Not that I want anyone to stay away forever (well happy about Patrick), I do wish he would come back and post.

Chris if you read this, please post something about your Gabriel tables. I don't know if I missed a post by you referring to this, if so I apologize.

eg8r

cheesemouse
02-04-2003, 06:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote good2:</font><hr> good info and thanks, though surprised.
Anone know how the table plays? How are the cushions?
How come we don't hear as much about them? Small company?
Always thought the Gold Crown was the top table out there? <hr /></blockquote>

I just spent 5 hours playing 9-ball on the Diamond Pro w/light in a friend of mines home room. It is the first time I've got it going on this table and it was a super feeling because these Diamonds with the Pro specs are very unforgiving and when you start running racks on them you know your game is good. Tonight I have to play in a local 8-ball league on Valley barboxes. The pockets are going to look like barndoors..... the Diamond Pro is a work of art. I have played on the Gabrial with tight pockets and they are more forgiving for some reason.

02-04-2003, 06:40 PM
Sounds like you'll be kicking some serious butt tonight.
Nice to hear about the tables.
Was on the phone today with the Brunswick rep to see when they might have any tourny tables available.Answer was not till after March maybe. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Still would like to hear more, what cost is like. Also tracked down Kim Steel tables and thought they were interesting too.

Tom_In_Cincy
02-04-2003, 07:22 PM
Diamonds were made for the pros, with the pros providing the specs. The Diamonds were first used at the Lexington KY All Stars tournament in the early 90s.

Great tables and quickly became second only to the die-hard Gold Crown loyalist. There have been many converts to the Diamond from the Brunswick GC line. Diamond has had a great rep in the last 7 years.. and has promoted one of the best trounaments in the US. The Derby City Classic is truely a one of a kind tournament.. produced to give the players and fans the best venue to have a great time.

Gabrials have had a few good reviews.. Allen Hopkins used them last year at the his tournament in Vegas. The tables got great reviews.

I understand that the newest Brunswicks are suppose to be the best they have ever built. There is a new pool hall opening in Cincinnati very soon with these new tables. I can't wait to try them out.

I don't think you could go wrong with any of these 3 tables. All are excellent choices.

Ralph S.
02-05-2003, 01:17 AM
At the Derby City Classic, they had the Diamond bar tables upstairs. I played on them and later had a chance to play a little on the big Diamonds downstairs. They played incredibly alike with the only difference being the table size and coin mech. If I had the space, my money would definitely be on the Diamond.
Ralph S.

Wally_in_Cincy
02-05-2003, 08:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> I have to say, I miss seeing Chris' posts. I think he is one of the rare posters that actually leaves when they say they are going to.

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">IIRC Chris did not announce his departure. I believe he was having bandwidth trouble (with the new format). Then again he doesn't post at AZB often either, so maybe he's just been busy.</font color>

Fred Agnir
02-05-2003, 08:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>
I understand that the newest Brunswicks are suppose to be the best they have ever built. <hr /></blockquote>
Are they going to be based on the Gold Crown, or are they coming up with a new table that will more appropriately compete with the Gabriels or Diamonds? Like a new version of the Anniversery or Centennial?

Fred

SPetty
02-05-2003, 11:05 AM
Hi good2,

After asking around and learning what I could, I'm a believer in Diamond. My brand spankin' new 9' Diamond Pro (w/matching light, BTW) is scheduled to be delivered and set up some time next week.

WooHoo!

Rich R.
02-05-2003, 11:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> Hi good2,

After asking around and learning what I could, I'm a believer in Diamond. My brand spankin' new 9' Diamond Pro (w/matching light, BTW) is scheduled to be delivered and set up some time next week.

WooHoo!

<hr /></blockquote>
Good for you SPetty. Although I've only played on a Diamond Pro once, I don't think you will be disappointed.
I am very jealous. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Ross
02-05-2003, 12:13 PM
I have two complaints about the Diamonds that I play on at one of the local ph's. Note that these Diamonds are a few years old and I think I heard that Diamond is now using different cushions, so these issues may no longer exist.

First is that they seem to bank a bit strange. It's hard to explain, but I can give you an example. If you are banking into a side pocket at medium speed and come in short, on most tables there is a fair chance the ball will go into the opposite side pocket (whereupon you smile sheepishly, while your opponent groans). This is a very rare occurrance on the 2 diamond tables I play on and not because of the tight pockets. For some reason the ball stays short on the second rebound like it would if you had banked it really hard. It doesn't seem to bank "true" when compared to GC's, etc.

Second complaint is that when cutting down the rail at anything but very slow speed, the ball is spit out if there is even the slightest touch of the rail on the way in. This seems to be due to the angles of the pocket facings in combination with the shelf depth, not due to the size of the pockets. On the particular tables I am talking about, even strong A players hesitate to shoot any position plays that require a firmly struck ob down the rail. This limits the ability to use strong follow or draw shots for position. Note that when the cloth is fairly new (like it is in pro tourneys) this is not an issue.

Has anyone else noticed these characteristics? If so, am I the only one bothered by them? Also, have they been eliminated/reduced in newer Diamonds?

Alfie
02-05-2003, 01:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> First is that they seem to bank a bit strange. It's hard to explain, but I can give you an example. If you are banking into a side pocket at medium speed and come in short, on most tables there is a fair chance the ball will go into the opposite side pocket (whereupon you smile sheepishly, while your opponent groans). This is a very rare occurrance on the 2 diamond tables I play on and not because of the tight pockets. For some reason the ball stays short on the second rebound like it would if you had banked it really hard. It doesn't seem to bank "true" when compared to GC's, etc. <hr /></blockquote> Could have been dirty/wet rail cloth on the Diamonds.

02-05-2003, 02:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>
Second complaint is that when cutting down the rail at anything but very slow speed, the ball is spit out if there is even the slightest touch of the rail on the way in. This seems to be due to the angles of the pocket facings in combination with the shelf depth, not due to the size of the pockets. On the particular tables I am talking about, even strong A players hesitate to shoot any position plays that require a firmly struck ob down the rail. This limits the ability to use strong follow or draw shots for position. Note that when the cloth is fairly new (like it is in pro tourneys) this is not an issue.

Has anyone else noticed these characteristics? If so, am I the only one bothered by them? Also, have they been eliminated/reduced in newer Diamonds?


<hr /></blockquote>

I have not noticed anything particular to Diamonds but many tables have a range of ball speed when running a ball down the rail that causes the ball to spit out. Generally any speed either below or above this range pockets the ball just fine. Perhaps the speed you use to run balls down the rail falls in this "spit out" range. English may make quite a bit of difference as well.

Cueless Joey
02-05-2003, 02:52 PM
http://www.barenada.com/images/diamondpocket.jpg The cushion facing on Diamond's bottom rails are definitely too flat. Instead of pointing to the side pockets or nearby, they point slightly above second diamond of the opposite side rails. This was pointed out to me by a very good player when we were at the Riviera during the World 8-ball back in '98.

Ross
02-05-2003, 04:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote> Could have been dirty/wet rail cloth on the Diamonds. <hr /></blockquote>

You might be right. Unfortunately this ph puts in little time cleaning the tables and they are always dirty. I like the people and the action there but I can barely stand the filth in the place.

Ross
02-05-2003, 04:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimbo:</font><hr>
I have not noticed anything particular to Diamonds but many tables have a range of ball speed when running a ball down the rail that causes the ball to spit out. Generally any speed either below or above this range pockets the ball just fine. Perhaps the speed you use to run balls down the rail falls in this "spit out" range. English may make quite a bit of difference as well. <hr /></blockquote>

Jimbo, thanks for the feedback on other Diamonds. On the tables I'm talking about it's not just me. All of the top local players have trouble keeping the pockets from spitting balls out when hit at anything beyond moderate speed. You can do it - but the ball cannot even slightly graze the rail on the way in.

Rod
02-05-2003, 05:06 PM
Ross,
That's my experience from playing on Diamonds. As the cloth gets older they are just plain tough. If your going to shoot a ball at speed, playing position it better hit all pocket. The older ones, to me, have slow rails. Not real slow but enough for me to comment. I haven't played on any new ones so they may be different.

Rod

Tom_In_Cincy
02-05-2003, 05:27 PM
Fred,
From what I've heard.. it will be a Gold Crown V

02-05-2003, 08:40 PM
I used to regularly play on a Diamond pro, and I (and everyone else) got the same results when shooting a ball down the rail. It had to be hit perfectly to go, and you could never hit it with any speed. It was brutal, but I'm sure an experienced table mechanic could correct that problem. Other than that, the table was terrific. I really wanted either the Diamond or G.C. for my home room, but my wife just couldn't see a "pool hall" motif for the family room! I compromised and went with an Olhausen Remington, and have been very pleased.

02-05-2003, 10:50 PM
Hello All!

As you can see, this is my first post to this board, though I've been lurking here for a while. I thought you might like the perspective of a new, and very happy, owner of a Diamond Pro 9' table and light. I ordered the table and light direct from Diamond in late October and they delivered them to my house in mid-December. The many positive comments from posters on this board is what convinced me to buy the Diamond Pro, even though I had never seen one in person.

Another thing, I'm still pretty much a rookie at this game. I started playing once a week last June at a local rec center and the bug really bit me hard. They have 9' Gold Crowns. After a few months of this I knew I had to have more table time so I decided to buy a table. I looked at the furniture grade tables from Brunswick, Olhausen, Gandy, and a few others I don't remember but I decided I wanted a really great playing table so I went with the Diamond.

Diamond offers the table with Pro cut (4 9/16") pockets or relaxed cut (4 13/16") pockets. I got the relaxed cut pockets because I figured I'd have a lot of casual players at my house who would probably get really frustrated with the Pro cut. The relaxed cut is still tighter than most tables. The Gold Crowns I've played on are around 5".

Having this table has improved my game tremendously. Part of it is being able to play whenever I want. The other part is the table. This thing plays so true, you know that if you miss, it's your fault, not the table's. It is not a forgiving table, but it doesn't punish a good shot. If you aim correctly and have a good stroke, it's going in. My buddies and I play two nights a week and I've noticed everyone's game has improved a lot.

The cushions are made by Artemis. I find they are very lively and bounce true. The Simonis 860 cloth is also excellent.

If you're interested in the Diamond Pro I suggest you give the folks at Diamond a call. I was very surprised when they said they would deliver and set up my table, and I live over 400 miles from the factory. They will do this if you don't have a Diamond dealer within 100 miles. The fee for this, if I remember correctly, was $275 for setup and 1$/mile (one way) of driving distance. The guy who set up my table said he has set up hundreds of Diamond Pros. Also, the price of the table was quite reasonable. I don't know if they were having a special promotion, or what, but I paid $4500 plus setup and delivery for a 9' Diamond Pro in cherry. The light, in cherry, was $725.

I know you can buy a 9' Olhausen for about $3000. However, the build quality between it and the Diamond is night and day different. The slate on the Diamond is thicker than average at about 1.2". The beams that support the slate are made of huge LVL engineered lumber timbers. I think they are 4"x4". They are stronger than regular wood and won't warp as easily as regular wood. There are 3 beams that run lengthwise and two cross member beams. This is much more rugged construction than the furniture type tables. The finish of the rails and blinds is first-rate. The diamonds are so flush with the rails you can't feel them. I love the cherry finish, but it is somewhat prone to damage. If this concerns you, you might be better off with a harder wood such as oak or maple. I have a few dings and scratches in my rails already.

Well, that's my report. I hope it is useful to you.

dddd
02-05-2003, 11:15 PM
This is just my thought.
There seems to be this large question about the pocket spitting balls out and it is a facing problem or a diamond construction problem.

Ok if that were so set up a cue ball and put it where you would have that object ball laid.
Shoot it into the pocket in question; at whatever speed you would shoot the other shot.
Most times the cue ball will go in.

So to my way of thinking, if I missed that shot its because I hit it wrong. Not the table, pocket or angle of the facing. It comes down to me. I missed, not the table or any other thing the table might be blamed for.

I personally do not have a problem with the ball coming out unless I hit it wrong, then I get what I give.

The table is difficult and supposed to be so. If any ball will always roll in and fall into the pocket no matter what I do well, it's not the table for me. The harder the table the better for me.

Gayle in MD
02-06-2003, 12:47 AM
Hi,
I have had my Diamond Pro, with Pro cut pockets, and have not noticed any problems with it at all. They make a great table, and they are great people to deal with. I am thrilled with my table, and it has improved my game tremendously. Also, in a year of playing on it, I have never had it spit a ball out of the pocket, not once.
Gayle in Md. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Drake
02-06-2003, 09:23 AM
I have owned a Cherry Diamond Pro with matching chairs and light for about 2 years. I reached the point that I wasn't going to do it half-a$$, you only buy one home table your whole life...you might as well do it right. I've only had one ball spit out back on the table and this was shot with extreme draw. As far as down the rail shots, the angle of the pockets with the deep shelves makes the shooter be very very accurate.

eg8r
02-06-2003, 09:31 AM
Well hopefully I am wrong and you are right and he is getting the bandwidth issue fixed. I thought I remembered him posting that he was too busy with the pool room and he was going to spend more time with that than posting here. Then is when I noticed the posts weening away.

eg8r

Ken
02-06-2003, 09:51 AM
eg8r,
Chris did say he was having trouble trying to read all the posts because there were too many. He couldn't keep up and there was so much useless stuff there wasn't any incentive to keep up.

I was there and saw his computer in action. It was not responding to keystrokes properly and one could try for 10 minutes and fail to do something that should have taken 5 seconds. The computer is used primarily in the business and he can't mess with it too much without risking messing up the business use. I suspect he needs more memory and a faster processor to deal with all the crap that comes in on the internet now. It's not a bandwidth problem.

Around here people are throwing away better computers. My town collects them for recycling and I've gotten several upgrades to my system from the dump. I've thrown away many components that I paid a lot of money for after getting several replacments that were better from the discards.

With a 128mb memory module available for $10 and all the other parts for free there's no reason not to be able to view this forum or most everything else on the internet without a problem.
Ken

eg8r
02-06-2003, 12:06 PM
I hear ya. I just upgraded a buddy's computer the other day (More of a teaching session than anything else). He kept his motherboard and got a new processor and RAM. The processor was an XP1600 he got from a buddy of his that was upgrading another computer and we went to CompUSA to get the RAM. They sell PNY (I think that is the brand) and we got 3 512mb pc133 RAM for $60 a piece with a $20 mail in rebate. It is so cheap to upgrade a computer these days it makes me sick. LOL, I have spent a small fortune in computer equipment over the past 15 years and these days you can get almost anything for under a $100 bucks.

eg8r &lt;Still remembers mowing lawns to pay for the new high tech game for my apple...mathblaster. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Cueless Joey
02-06-2003, 06:49 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;item=2707557639&amp;category=21 213
Diamond table on Fleabay!!!

Ross
02-06-2003, 09:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;item=2707557639&amp;category=21 213
Diamond table on Fleabay!!! <hr /></blockquote>
Clueless,
Not any more - just bought it! Thanks for the heads-up. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Diamond table + diamond lights + new Simonis cloth + balls/rack for 3k was too good of a deal to pass up. Now just have to learn to hit hard shots down the rail perfectly so they don't kick out!

Rod
02-06-2003, 09:53 PM
Hey good for you Ross. I take it you live fairly close to the seller. That $1 per mile adds up fast if their driving a distance. Have fun on your new table!

Rod

Ross
02-06-2003, 11:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Hey good for you Ross. I take it you live fairly close to the seller. That $1 per mile adds up fast if their driving a distance. Have fun on your new table!

Rod <hr /></blockquote>
Thanks Rod, I'm stoked about finally getting a table! Actually the table is 300 miles away. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif But I've been looking for a GC IV or Diamond locally for months and have found nothing. I put $2500 down on a GC IV a few months ago, but then the seller backed out.

I still think Diamond needs to re-work their pocket facing angles/shelf depth combination for the reasons discussed above, but it is a good table otherwise. Also, it is the table I tend to gamble on, so it is worth my while to become familiar with it.

Also thanks to the CCB group. The table-in-a-garage thread as well as your (Rod's) comments about even a practice-only table being helpful helped me reach a point where I was ready to make the plunge. The table is going into a shop area attached to my house that is not really wide enough for comfortable playing at this time. But until I can expand this, I will be happy as a pig in shxx to have a practice table. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SPetty
02-07-2003, 04:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> I'm stoked about finally getting a table!

The table-in-a-garage thread as well as your (Rod's) comments about even a practice-only table being helpful helped me reach a point where I was ready to make the plunge. The table is going into a shop area attached to my house that is not really wide enough for comfortable playing at this time. But until I can expand this, I will be happy as a pig in shxx to have a practice table. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>Hi Ross,

Congratulations on a great deal on a great table. I hope the details get worked out well and go smoothly.

As for the practice table, I had a table once in a place that wasn't big enough for a table. I ended up putting the table just inches from the wall in order to have a good shooting area from everywhere else around the table. I personally think that's preferable to placing the table in the middle of the too-little-area so that you're cramped all around the table. It works well for practice, but not so well when company comes over! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

A pig in what? /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Ross
02-07-2003, 04:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> Hi Ross,

Congratulations on a great deal on a great table. I hope the details get worked out well and go smoothly.

As for the practice table, I had a table once in a place that wasn't big enough for a table. I ended up putting the table just inches from the wall in order to have a good shooting area from everywhere else around the table. I personally think that's preferable to placing the table in the middle of the too-little-area so that you're cramped all around the table. It works well for practice, but not so well when company comes over! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

A pig in what? /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Hi SPetty,
I bought it only to keep up with you! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
BTW, when you had the practice table, how big of a pain was it to get the balls out from the side pocket next to the wall? Seems like if you only had a few inches space it would be difficult. I have only a little over 14' of width now (plenty of length) and have to decide how I am going to handle table setup since it may be a few months before I can enlarge the room.
Oh- I just meant "a pig in shop." You know how happy pigs get when they get to take Shop class in high school, don't you? Why, what did you think I meant? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

SPetty
02-07-2003, 05:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> BTW, when you had the practice table, how big of a pain was it to get the balls out from the side pocket next to the wall? <hr /></blockquote>Oh, good point. My cheapo practice table had a ball return... Yeah, you'd need to have enough room to get the balls out of the side pocket.<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>Oh- I just meant "a pig in shop." You know how happy pigs get when they get to take Shop class in high school, don't you? <hr /></blockquote>hahahaha /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Good save!

Cueless Joey
02-07-2003, 05:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;item=2707557639&amp;category=21 213
Diamond table on Fleabay!!! <hr /></blockquote>
Clueless,
Not any more - just bought it! Thanks for the heads-up. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Diamond table + diamond lights + new Simonis cloth + balls/rack for 3k was too good of a deal to pass up. Now just have to learn to hit hard shots down the rail perfectly so they don't kick out! <hr /></blockquote>
Damn!!!!!!!!! I should get a percentage. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
You're welcome and stop calling me CLUEless.
I'm Cueless. It's exactly opposite of me since I own a ton of cues.

Greg/Diamond
02-07-2003, 09:15 PM
Ross,

I know exactly what you are talking about. I am using what I think is a better or different rubber at this time. I'm using an Artemis Intercontinal Rubber. This is not the usual K-66 profile rather it's closer to the K-55 profile used on the Brunswick tables. I've always been at the mercy of the people who manufacture pool table rubber. When the rubber is softer or the profile is more pointed (which results in less rubber mass) the ball penetrates deeper in the rail rubber. The ball then takes the path of least resistance which is as straight out as possible. The result is banks banking shorter than what you have been used to. Also the english that is picked up by the object ball going deeper in the rubber (contacting more surface area) is translated into reverse english when it contacts the second rail. This makes a two rail cross table bank almost impossible with speed, because the object ball doesn't release and can even back up.

As to being able to contact the rail before entering the corner pocket it all comes down to the pocket angle. The tables you are talking about were cut at 143 degrees. This particular angle is good at tournaments where new cloth is used, but becomes almost too unforging when the cloth is used or damp. I've released the angle to 142 degrees on my recent tables. I've also discovered there is a definite connection between the pocket opening and the pocket angle that must be maintained for proper play. All I can say is I've learned the only way I could. Thru trial and error and not being scared to make mistakes. Mostly learning from them. Greg/Diamond

02-07-2003, 11:33 PM
Greg, keep up the good work. The reference I made earlier in this thread about the pockets not taking a ball shot down the rail was primarily after the cloth was worn, and this is the ONLY fault I could find. I learned to play on Gold Crowns and will always enjoy playing on them, but I really feel the Diamond is a superior player's table.

SPetty
02-08-2003, 08:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Greg/Diamond:</font><hr> I am using what I think is a better or different rubber at this time.

...

I've released the angle to 142 degrees on my recent tables. <hr /></blockquote>Hi Greg,

My table purportedly shipped from your place on Thursday (to arrive at the local dealer this Wednesday!) Is there a good chance it has these improvements you're talking about?

Sure looking forward to it!

SPetty~~~table, light, rack, cherry stained oak... Surely you recognize that order! hahaha, like you don't get many of those every month... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ross
02-08-2003, 10:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Greg/Diamond:</font><hr> Ross,

I know exactly what you are talking about. I am using what I think is a better or different rubber at this time. I'm using an Artemis Intercontinal Rubber. This is not the usual K-66 profile rather it's closer to the K-55 profile used on the Brunswick tables. I've always been at the mercy of the people who manufacture pool table rubber. When the rubber is softer or the profile is more pointed (which results in less rubber mass) the ball penetrates deeper in the rail rubber. The ball then takes the path of least resistance which is as straight out as possible. The result is banks banking shorter than what you have been used to. Also the english that is picked up by the object ball going deeper in the rubber (contacting more surface area) is translated into reverse english when it contacts the second rail. This makes a two rail cross table bank almost impossible with speed, because the object ball doesn't release and can even back up.

As to being able to contact the rail before entering the corner pocket it all comes down to the pocket angle. The tables you are talking about were cut at 143 degrees. This particular angle is good at tournaments where new cloth is used, but becomes almost too unforging when the cloth is used or damp. I've released the angle to 142 degrees on my recent tables. I've also discovered there is a definite connection between the pocket opening and the pocket angle that must be maintained for proper play. All I can say is I've learned the only way I could. Thru trial and error and not being scared to make mistakes. Mostly learning from them. Greg/Diamond
<hr /></blockquote>
Wow, Greg, you've made my day! I'm glad to know that I wasn't imagining these problems. It's not often that you have your perceptions validated my THE expert on the issue. (It's like that scene in "Annie Hall" where someone in line for a movie is spouting on about the theories of media theorist Marshall McLuhan, only to have McLuhan himself step out of line behind him to correct him. Except the opposite! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

I'm also impressed by your willingness to be open about the learning process in making tables and your dedication to making the best playing table possible.

And I can see your dilemma in table design. It is not possible to design pockets that are the optimal difficulty when played with new cloth (as the pros play on in most big tourneys) and that is also optimal difficulty after the cloth is used a bit (which is the way the table is usually used). I'm glad to hear that you've switched to a pocket angle that is better for use on a day-to-day basis. Also, it sounds like you've solved the problems of the rails. I look forward to playing on the newer Diamonds.

Now how do I go about getting the newer rails for the used Diamond I just bought? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Greg/Diamond
02-08-2003, 12:09 PM
Please call Diamond at 800-874-0557 and ask for Chad. He runs my company and can fix you up. Call me directly if you have any more questions or problems 812-989-6665 Greg/Diamond

Greg/Diamond
02-08-2003, 12:16 PM
Most definitely! Once I find something that I think is better I can't go backwards. Again you or anyone can call me personally at 812989-6665. This is my personal cell and I like to be kept up on things in the pool world. As I'm not always on the www. Greg/Diamond

Ross
02-08-2003, 02:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;item=2707557639&amp;category=21 213
Diamond table on Fleabay!!! <hr /></blockquote>
Clueless,
Not any more - just bought it! Thanks for the heads-up. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Diamond table + diamond lights + new Simonis cloth + balls/rack for 3k was too good of a deal to pass up. Now just have to learn to hit hard shots down the rail perfectly so they don't kick out! <hr /></blockquote>
Damn!!!!!!!!! I should get a percentage. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
You're welcome and stop calling me CLUEless.
I'm Cueless. It's exactly opposite of me since I own a ton of cues. <hr /></blockquote>

Wow, you do me a favor and I immediately insult you! Sorry about that CUELESS. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Funny, I always read your name as Clueless - I thought it was just self-deprecating humor.

You say you should get a percentage, huh? Better talk to the seller unless you mean a percentage of the bill!

Seriously, thanks again for the heads up!