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thepoolnerd
02-05-2003, 07:03 AM
I have to give up a huge spot in my 14.4 league this week. 60+ balls in a race to 100. How do you alter your strategy when you have to give up so many balls, namely on break shots/safes. I struggled the last time that I had to spot so much.

Pizza Bob
02-05-2003, 07:35 AM
Fifteen numbered balls and three reds, maybe??????

Adios,

Pizza Bob

NBC-BOB
02-05-2003, 07:52 AM
I assume you mean 14.1 straight pool.thats a pretty big spot!Your going to have to take no chances.Tighten up your safety game!I read a quote that Willie Mosconi made about Irving Crane years ago, because Irving never took a chancy shot in his life.( Willie said "he wouldn't take a shot and a chance if he was playing his mother).

Rich R.
02-05-2003, 09:17 AM
Keep in mind, in any handicapped league, the purpose of the handicap is to give the lower player a chance to win and, also, to force the better player to play up to their potential. When you give up that kind of weight in a league, you are suppose to struggle. Just play your best and don't take any unnecessary chances, when breaking balls. I think the conservative approach may work the best in this situation.

Popcorn
02-05-2003, 09:50 AM
For one thimg, It is supposed to be difficult, even to the point of you having play you very best to win. That is the point of the spot. I always find it funny that strong players often complain about having to give up a spot in handicapped tournament. They complain about it if it is even a close game and they had to play hard to win. They forget about the player that plays every week and has never won and will never win a tournament, and by the way, never complains, but plays for the love of the game. In answer to your question, you need to run balls combined with good safety play, but most important, run balls.

Popcorn
02-05-2003, 09:56 AM
I would disagree a little about that. You need to run balls to overcome a big spot in straight pool. Don't assume the other player is not themselves going to be playing safe, they are not helpless. You need to play your game, not begin altering it. You can't play a tit-for-tat game, you will lose.

thepoolnerd
02-05-2003, 10:12 AM
I wasn't complaining. I give up balls almost every week and wouldn't have joined the league if it wasn't handicapped.

Steve Lipsky
02-05-2003, 10:14 AM
Popcorn, I completely agree. The best way to overcome a big spot is to hit a weak opponent with big runs. They fall apart against such barrages.

The best way to make the game close is to start playing safe on every shot that is not 100%. Your opponent will get a ton of innings, will be in stroke, and will be playing with less fear. His thought process will be, "If I turn the table over it might cost me 20 balls, and then I'll have a chance in a safety battle." When it should be, "Jeez, if I miss, he's gonna start running balls." That's when the trembling starts.

You have to remember that your advantage, as the significantly better player, is your ability to run balls. Straight pool is not like baseball, where good pitching (defense) wins games. Big runs win straight pool matches.

Danny Barouty taught me this. He plays in a league at Corner Billiards (NYC) where he is routinely giving people games like 180-35. He's not going to win that game running 20s.

- Steve

Jack Jr
02-05-2003, 01:01 PM
While running balls in straight pool is a big advantage, also defending your opponent from doing the same is just as important. Being efficient in safety play does bring an advantage to players of the same caliber.

Steve Lipsky
02-05-2003, 02:14 PM
Hi Jack. I'm not denying the importance of solid defensive play... I'm saying that top players generally do not win games by playing 20-and-safe.

In practically every straight pool tape I have, and in games that I've witnessed, both players get chances at open tables. To a one, games where this did not happen were when one player simply ran out.

So if both players are getting about the same number of shooting innings, who is the winner? I say it is the guy running more balls, others may say it is the guy taking more care to leave nothing when he relinquishes the table.

Anyone else have opinions on this?

- Steve

Wally_in_Cincy
02-05-2003, 02:25 PM
At your level I agree completely.

At my level (high run of 24) an excellent safety game can win matches against equally crappy opponents.

JMHO from my perspective.

Wally~~CSPL whipping boy

Fred Agnir
02-05-2003, 02:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Hi Jack. I'm not denying the importance of solid defensive play... I'm saying that top players generally do not win games by playing 20-and-safe.

In practically every straight pool tape I have, and in games that I've witnessed, both players get chances at open tables. To a one, games where this did not happen were when one player simply ran out.

So if both players are getting about the same number of shooting innings, who is the winner? I say it is the guy running more balls, others may say it is the guy taking more care to leave nothing when he relinquishes the table.

Anyone else have opinions on this?

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>
I got an opinion. Believe it or not. I agree with you Steve.

I think that although there is an importance in safety play in every game, the majority of pool games are runout games. Straight pool is definitely no exception, and really is the obvious example.

There are a very few examples of players winning on table management. From my home state, 9-time New England 14.1 champion Roger Boucher wasn't a high runner, but was the 50 and safe type of player. But he was the only one. And he had high runs in the 200's. High runs win more times than table management, if those two categories are supposedly separate.

Even in a non-obvious game like 8-ball, at the higher levels, the guys who runout often and from everywhere are the ones holding the trophy at the end of the day. Again, although a solid safety game is important, all of this romantic 8-ball defensive strategy just doesn't happen at the advanced levels. The players are too busy running racks.

Fred

Popcorn
02-05-2003, 02:48 PM
I learned first hand what running balls is. I played Allen Hopkins some years ago. At one time he was a hell of a straight pool player. He played me If I remember right 135 to 75. on a table I play on all the time and ran balls every night. I would have thought at the time I could play anybody like that, I was wrong. We played about a dozen games and I only won two games and then, only because I ran out. It seemed like he would run a 70 or 90 or more every game. Once running out over a 100 with me needing two. By the way, when I needed the two, I passed on a shot and played safe. Only the get out safed and have him run out. Guys that have that power to run balls are very frightening. I would rather give weight to a weaker player, then play with weight against one of those champions. I am not embarrassed to tell this story, I can run balls also, but those guys do it with such regularity it is hard to overcome.

Wally_in_Cincy
02-05-2003, 02:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
....all of this romantic 8-ball defensive strategy just doesn't happen at the advanced levels. The players are too busy running racks.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

And the tapes of the Accu-stats Invitational from the LA Expo prove what you are saying.

Popcorn
02-05-2003, 03:00 PM
I think the definition of a safety is an attempt buy your self a shot. The problem comes, when a player is passing up shots, opting for safeties. In all games, every time the other guy comes to the table, he is in a position to beat you, even if he only gets lucky. You can't be reckless, but you have to play, to be a consistent winner. I play very aggressive one pocket. Weather some like the way I play or not, I can feel the power I have over a player relying on all defensive play. I had a world class player tell me years ago, you always beat a player that is afraid to shoot, they are just no threat. All they do is play a survival game. Just surviving is not winning.

Steve Lipsky
02-05-2003, 03:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Even in a non-obvious game like 8-ball, at the higher levels, the guys who runout often and from everywhere are the ones holding the trophy at the end of the day. Again, although a solid safety game is important, all of this romantic 8-ball defensive strategy just doesn't happen at the advanced levels. The players are too busy running racks.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Great post, Fred. And agreed, especially as it relates to 8-ball. At the higher levels, guys are looking to string 2-3 racks together for every game they steal from their opponent's break. Especially on big tables with liberal rules (choice after break).

- Steve

Steve Lipsky
02-05-2003, 03:39 PM
Popcorn, that shot you passed up when you needed 2 and Allen needed 100+ - I'm guessing it was pretty damned tough!

You're right about Allen (or any top player) though. I feel I have a better chance beating them playing relatively open and missing the occasional shot, than never shooting a toughie and constantly engaging them in safe-battles.

- Steve

Steve Lipsky
02-05-2003, 03:45 PM
Wally, I would hardly describe someone with a high run of 24 as crappy... /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

I know a guy with a high run of 8 who refuses to play straight pool. He'll only play 9-ball. (Told me this with a straight face, he did.)

Now he was crappy.

- Steve

Tom_In_Cincy
02-05-2003, 05:49 PM
60 balls is a huge spot.
I am assuming your opponent can't run more than 4 balls before they miss...and can't play average position. If you were playing EVEN.. do you think you could hold him to under 40 points? If you do.. then how would you play your game then? Same way I think.

Hopster
02-05-2003, 07:50 PM
My wife enjoys playing straight pool with me and i routinely spot her 35 balls in a 50 point game. She wins some i win some, the scores are close though. 50-13, 50-14 ,etc.
Point being , the spot makes it an equal game and i do have to play tough a lot of times to win.
I just hate it when she smirls at me though. lol

Jay M
02-06-2003, 07:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]
You're right about Allen (or any top player) though. I feel I have a better chance beating them playing relatively open and missing the occasional shot, than never shooting a toughie and constantly engaging them in safe-battles.<hr /></blockquote>

I'm a bit different then. I shoot the high percentage shots, I'll try the medium difficulty shots. But, when the percentage to make the ball drops below the percentage on a LOCK UP safety, I'll take the safety (if the rack isn't opened). I do agree with you for the most part though. I'd rather be shooting to win.

Jay M

Steve Lipsky
02-06-2003, 08:26 AM
Hi Jay. What is your opinion of the existence of a lock-up safety in straight pool? Sure, they're there, but even if they are, your opponent can just take three fouls. After a good re-break, you're going to be way uptable with usually an awkward chance to get going again.

When I weigh my make-percentage of a tough shot, I usually compare it not just to my chances at playing a great safe, but also to my chances of making that long one right after a re-break.

Do others do the same?

- Steve

CRATER59
02-06-2003, 10:51 AM
Greetings,
I play in the straight league at Corner with D.Barouty, T.Robles, V.Romano and other high runners. The high runners give me 20-40 balls in a game to 100, in turn, I have to give the lower ranked players 20-40 balls. I play the same game either way, try to run out at every chance I can. My reasoning is- against a guy like Robles or Barouty, anything less than a perfect safety will result in me keeping the chair warm for the next 20 minutes.Therefore, if I have a choice between a cue ball up table cut shot to try and loosen the rack or push to the rail for a second foul, I'll try the cut shot everytime.
Against lower ranked players, I will play the same shot. The best way to overcome a large handicap is to demoralize your opponent by running up your score. The result will be that they will start questioning their abilities and become afraid to take a shot or just start missing hangers. I have seen both outcomes time and again. Plus, and perhaps most importantly, I practice those uptable cut shots that loosen the rack so I'm comfortable shooting them.

Thank you.
JL

Wally_in_Cincy
02-06-2003, 01:01 PM
I wasn't going to respond with my usual meaningless drivel but it's a little slow today so what the hell....

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Wally, I would hardly describe someone with a high run of 24 as crappy... <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Steve. Actually I've done that twice, once on a table with pockets that are kinda tight. When I can run 82 in a tournament like you did a couple of months ago I'll consider myself non-crappy /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sometimes when I'm playing someone at my level there is too much safety play. Knowing the shot we face is low-percentage we tend to chicken out /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif. I have learned to be patient.

One of my problems continues to be break shots and secondary break shots. If I cinch the shot I don't break the balls well but I can make the ball 90% of the time. If I shoot it harder I miss probably almost 40% of the time, leaving my opponent a wide open table.

I was playing a guy one night in a match for the championship of the lowest division of our league. The prize was $100 and a trophy. We both played tentatively, trying not to leave the other player a spread table. Took almost 4 hours LOL. He was playing very slow but even if he had not been it probably would have taken over 3 hours.

Wally in the Natti~~lucky to be in a good 14.1 league (CSPL)

#### leonard
02-06-2003, 01:55 PM
I am trying to remember if I ever played a safe in a tournament besides the opening safe. Which I would play if I won the lag, I practiced that shot till the cows came home. I can't ever remember myself getting locked up where I would have to play a safety. No one ran balls on me I think Ray Martin holds that honor with an 85. I missed but never a safety. I am not counting playing return safes.d####

Fred Agnir
02-06-2003, 02:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> Sometimes when I'm playing someone at my level there is too much safety play. Knowing the shot we face is low-percentage we tend to chicken out /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif<hr /></blockquote>

One of the lines in your signature is:

<font color="blue">I do and I understand </font color>

One of the best way to learn and understand those low percentage shots, from a physical and mental memory point of view, is to actually shoot them in the pressure cooker, rather than faint away. IMO, shooting those shots during competion that might be a little under 50% is a key to turning those shots into "greater than 50%." Shooting them in practice alone doesn't get you the same sensation. The dreaded mental game.

No future visualization of those shots can occur if you never shoot them in competition.

Fred

Popcorn
02-06-2003, 03:42 PM
I think you don't chicken out as much as the rewards are not as great for you as would be for a better player. They feel a little risk is worth it, because of their skill and confidence and the possible rewards. In the case of straight pool, maybe winning the game without your opponent even being a factor anymore. I think that is why a little lesser player may not understand discussing not playing as much safe, this may seem the opposite of what they have been taught. As far as you having trouble with break shots, you should not be missing the break shot so much. In straight pool there are different levels of play and you need to taylor a game that suites your present skill level. I know if you and I played I would have you running balls in no time. There are many ways to keep break shots that will work. The classic side of the rack break shot is really one of the more difficult shots to keep although the most effective. You can control the cue ball as well as predict what the rack may do after that break. You don't usually get skunked after that break. Just don't fail to spot all the many other possible break shots that may be available. The one fallacy about straight pool is that top players plan out the rack. This would be ideal, but things are always changing, or you may just see something better to do. Don't get an idea in your head that excludes seeing other possibilities. One thing straight pool players have is a good imagination. Don't be fooled, when you watch a guy running balls. He is thinking all the time, even as he may appear to be running around the table with a specific plan. Straight pool players are very good at looking like "I mente to do that" even though they may have just altered the original plan five times in the last six shots.

Steve Lipsky
02-06-2003, 04:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> 60 balls is a huge spot. I am assuming your opponent can't run more than 4 balls before they miss...and can't play average position.<hr /></blockquote>

Tom, just out of curiosity, why are you assuming this? In that league I was mentioning before, the top players might give a game like 180-50 to a guy whose high run is around 30-35.

- Steve

Jay M
02-06-2003, 04:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Hi Jay. What is your opinion of the existence of a lock-up safety in straight pool? Sure, they're there, but even if they are, your opponent can just take three fouls. After a good re-break, you're going to be way uptable with usually an awkward chance to get going again.

When I weigh my make-percentage of a tough shot, I usually compare it not just to my chances at playing a great safe, but also to my chances of making that long one right after a re-break.

Do others do the same?

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Steve,
I said that poorly. I usually look at shots as either "I can make that one" or "I can't make that one". It really is a percentage call, but as soon as I identify a shot as "can't make", I won't go back to it because my mind will always remember that first impression. So if I have a shot, let's take one that comes up occasionally...

START(
%AC8S4%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PQ4W0
)END

Would you try to cut that ball to the corner from that steep an angle? It's makable, but I'd only shoot that if I felt like I was so far behind in the game that I had to take a chance to win. I'd be more likely to do something like

START(
%AC8S4%BL7P8%CJ1O8%DM1M0%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JM0G4
%KE4P4%LI4M9%MK6Q4%NH4R5%OI4L0%PL7Q8
)END

(the safety where you shoot between the 3rd and 4th ball to break a few out and freeze the cue)

I just think it's a better play than trying to make the thin cut down the rail AND get a break. I do agree that aggressiveness is good in straight pool, but there are times when the safety battle is a better choice. I don't really look at them taking the three fouls because I'm comfortable with the shots after the break.

Jay

Tom_In_Cincy
02-06-2003, 04:34 PM
Steve..

That's why I specifically mentioned "Assume".. Skill levels are measured differently all over.

180 to 50 is a huge spot. I would assume that the player that has to go to 180 is capable of running more than 50 at any time.. And, his opponent may have a high run of 30-35, but averages less than a 20 ball run in an average game.

That's a huge spot. There has to be a lot of talent difference to give up 130 balls. If not.. I don't see how the handicapping will work.

Steve Lipsky
02-06-2003, 05:26 PM
Hi Jay. Yeah, in your example, there's no way I'm shooting that ball - even on soft equipment.

We may just have been misunderstanding each other on what type of shot we were talking about. This is an example of what I was talking about:

START(
%AN0T6%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pd0W0
)END

or:

START(
%AV2Z2%BL7P8%CI4N0%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7K3%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ4O0%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OI7L7%PD6S3
)END

Both situations I'm shooting that 1-ball. Obviously, in the second example, if the 8 isn't where it is, I'm probably not shooting.

I guess it's a risk-reward type thing. In your example, I may make the shot and run, well, one ball (if things don't work out on the break). But the situations I was talking about are like the ones above, where making that tough shot might yield a nice run.

- Steve

Jay M
02-06-2003, 06:28 PM
On the two you diagrammed, I'm going for the shot without question. Every time. I think that you'r correct about us looking at the same thing from different sides of the same coin. I'm a stronger safety player than I am shooter so I turn down shots on occasion, but for the most part, I know that most of the time when I come to the table it's on a flat out opponent miss. That tells me that even if I sell out the rack, I'll most likely get a shot at some point down the road. Of course, the closer the opponent is to finishing, the more conservative I get in my shooting (and this is probably one of my weak points).

[ QUOTE ]
I guess it's a risk-reward type thing.<hr /></blockquote>

I don't really look at it that way. I take the stance that there is always a breakout if you have a ball to use that gives you even a modicum of room to work with. Both of the shots you diagrammed are ones that I would shoot every time.

What I'm describing is something like this situation:

START(
%AN3I7%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pl5X1%Qc9S0%R[2U0%UO7J5%Vl3W8
%WD0C7%XN5I7%YE2S3%Zl2X3%[I2Q2%\D4R6%]G6C9%^C3E1%eC4`6%_C6F4
%`J0K8%aN8J1%bO8G6%cL3E6%dI1C7
)END

Which way do you play this? A results in a break IF you make the shot with enough power to make the cue slide a hair, but has the risk of a scratch because it's so close to straight.

B is a bonafide safety with the risk being that you hit it too hard and the opponent gets a leave or you hit it too softly and the opponent can tap for you to get 3 fouls or have to return a safety.

There is an option C here, but I don't know of many people that would shoot it in a tournament, that's to play the corner ball back up the table. Like I said though, I don't really consider that a true option on this shot.

Personally, I'd take the shot and try for a break. If I get it, all I can get is the corner ball loose, BUT it's going to be loose in a place where I can use it for the next break. If I make the shot and miss the break. I'm just playing the same type of safety that I just passed by. The only losing situations are to miss the ball and have it hit the rack or to make the ball and scratch behind it, both of which I have enough confidence in my shooting to avoid. And scratching behind it would be OK with me.

So which one are you?

Jay

ElephantPoker
02-06-2003, 06:38 PM
Your playing Cary!!! Put your blindfold on and beat that clown!!!!

Gerry
02-07-2003, 06:36 AM
Boy am I glad to see some 14.1 chattin!.I just moved to Fl.last summer from the Philly burbs and the only game I've found here only 2 pockets are used!:). I did make the mistake of getting a game and putting a 40 n out on the guy figuring thats not world class where I come from,but it is at that room!.Live and learn.Guess I'll call Grady and get some tapes on that game with only 2 pockets:).

Steve Lipsky
02-07-2003, 10:48 AM
Hi Jay. There's no question I'm shooting that ball. The safety (B) is fairly weak (in that it does not give the shooter either an advantage or a disadvantage - it's just a precursor to a safety battle).

Shooting the 1, if I scratch, it's not much of a problem. We start a safety exchange on relatively equal footing.

Also, I feel that I would really have to miss the ball badly for it to go two rails and break open the rack.

But I think that the risk-reward ratio of this shot is much different than the one you earlier set up (break shot along the short rail). I've got a much higher chance of making the ball here, plus a better chance of disturbing the rack afterwards.

- Steve

Jay M
02-07-2003, 11:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Hi Jay. There's no question I'm shooting that ball. The safety (B) is fairly weak (in that it does not give the shooter either an advantage or a disadvantage - it's just a precursor to a safety battle).

Shooting the 1, if I scratch, it's not much of a problem. We start a safety exchange on relatively equal footing.

Also, I feel that I would really have to miss the ball badly for it to go two rails and break open the rack.

But I think that the risk-reward ratio of this shot is much different than the one you earlier set up (break shot along the short rail). I've got a much higher chance of making the ball here, plus a better chance of disturbing the rack afterwards.

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

I didn't think there was truly a question about shooting the ball, the question was more about whether you would put the power and english on it necessary to get to the rack. I know a lot of players that would just cinch the ball, stop the cue and shoot the side safety that I diagrammed earlier.

I will admit that I REALLY like that particular safety when it's executed properly. You may end up with a tough shot down the table, but you nearly always end up with some kind of shot when you play it.

As to missing badly enough to break the rack... I think there is a ball magnet or something in the rack. With my luck, I'd hit the jaws, it would bounce back and forth three or four times and then shoot out and slam into the rack. Based on past history, it is impossible to miss a shot that I'm trying for and NOT get the break... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Jay

Steve Lipsky
02-07-2003, 11:46 AM
Well, I'm definitely playing the shot with a lot of power. Once I decide to play a semi-difficult shot like this, that is my decision, and I don't baby it.

I'm confused by your talk of english though... are you really putting a little right on this shot, to bounce off the rack and go two rails to the center? At the speed I would have to punch this ball, I don't think I'd have the guts to put inside on it as well.

I think just a touch of top should be enough to get away from the rack after contact. Your way is definitely superior in the results, but (for my game) way less successful in the execution.

Again, risk-reward, my friend /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

- Steve

Wally_in_Cincy
02-07-2003, 12:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I think you don't chicken out as much as the rewards are not as great for you as would be for a better player. They feel a little risk is worth it, because of their skill and confidence and the possible rewards. In the case of straight pool, maybe winning the game without your opponent even being a factor anymore. I think that is why a little lesser player may not understand discussing not playing as much safe, this may seem the opposite of what they have been taught.

<font color="blue">Maybe it's time to adjust my strategy to reflect my (slightly) increased skill level. </font color>

As far as you having trouble with break shots, you should not be missing the break shot so much. In straight pool there are different levels of play and you need to taylor a game that suites your present skill level. I know if you and I played I would have you running balls in no time.

<font color="blue">Hell if I was playing you I probably wouldn't get an open shot /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color>

There are many ways to keep break shots that will work. The classic side of the rack break shot is really one of the more difficult shots to keep although the most effective. You can control the cue ball as well as predict what the rack may do after that break. You don't usually get skunked after that break. Just don't fail to spot all the many other possible break shots that may be available.

<font color="blue"> I'm aware of just about all the break shots. But my knowledge exceeds my execution skills. I need to practice them more.</font color>

The one fallacy about straight pool is that top players plan out the rack. This would be ideal, but things are always changing, or you may just see something better to do. Don't get an idea in your head that excludes seeing other possibilities. One thing straight pool players have is a good imagination. Don't be fooled, when you watch a guy running balls. He is thinking all the time, even as he may appear to be running around the table with a specific plan. Straight pool players are very good at looking like "I mente to do that" even though they may have just altered the original plan five times in the last six shots.

<font color="blue">Yeah that's the impression I got from watching Jim Rempe's tapes. It's good to know it's not just me that does that. </font color>

<font color="red">Thanx for the advice Popcorn. I appreciate it. </font color>


<hr /></blockquote>

Wally_in_Cincy
02-07-2003, 12:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
.....No future visualization of those shots can occur if you never shoot them in competition.....<hr /></blockquote>

Well I've got a match tomorrow at 4:00. I'll give it a shot and see what happens. Thanks Fred.

Jay M
02-07-2003, 01:28 PM
I think we're doing different things here. My shot would be to make the 1 and try to break the corner just enough to get the ball loose from the rack so I end up with something like this:

START(
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I'm not truly going for the rack until the NEXT shot. Maybe if I had a little more angle, I would try to drive a few balls out of the rack, but to do it from here would leave you with something like this:

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This is one of those racks that I'd pick at a ball or two at a time until I had a gimme break shot. By that I mean I'd only break one or two balls loose from the main rack at a time, not that I'd shoot one or two then safe.

Jay

Steve Lipsky
02-07-2003, 01:55 PM
Jay, agreed. It was something you wrote in a followup post ("would you play this with enough speed and english") that had me thinking you were playing this with inside.

So you would just pretty much punch this, correct?

- Steve

Rod
02-07-2003, 02:23 PM
Steve, I've been following this conversation. For me I'd have to hit a stun/punch with a hair of follow. I could only hope to get a shot similar to what Jay diagramed. It could be hit with a bit more follow but then it runs the risk of missing the end ball.

Rod

Jay M
02-07-2003, 02:25 PM
Not really a punch shot, more like a medium speed stroke with about a tip of top right (2:00) english. I do want it to kick off the two rails, I just want the english to do the job of getting it there rather than the speed. I think the right would also give you a slightly better angle into the rack than just top.

Jay

Rod
02-07-2003, 02:38 PM
Your a brave man Jay. That to me is asking a lot out of that angle. I hope these aren't tight pockets. LOL

Jay M
02-07-2003, 02:55 PM
It is asking a bit out of the angle, but if you try to punch it, I don't think you get to the rack with enough force to move the corner unless you use nearly a break speed stroke. That's asking a little too much for me. I'd rather miss the rack and be forced to play a safe from the side than to punch it that hard and miss, you could end up with the 1 going four rails and into the rack.

Jay

Rod
02-07-2003, 03:34 PM
Yes a break speed stroke with say 1/2 tip of follow. If I get lucky I may have a choice of two second break shots. I'd rather leave the c/b closer to the end rail. I doubt I'd miss the shot, it's just a question of what kind of shot is left. I learned long ago not to blow a shot making an angle. For me using no side english is accurate. If I used your method I would run the risk of missing the shot. Different strokes for-- well you know. Here is a modified version of your break and what could be left. If the ball closest to the end rail gets near straight then I could draw back for the open ball just above it.

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I like the possibility better, what do you think?

Jay M
02-07-2003, 04:48 PM
The only reason I don't like that is that if you get too far sideways before the top takes, and you nip the second ball at all before you make contact with the corner ball, you have a classic scratch.

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Like you said though, different strokes. With me, I feel confident using the right and trying to clip the corner out. I'll have to throw this one at Ray and see what he says.

Jay