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Wally_in_Cincy
02-07-2003, 12:28 PM
I've always used LePros. When I had them put on I would specify "medium LePro" cause I thought they came in different hardness grades. Then I found out (I think) that they only come in one grade. So last time I just requested "LePro". The darn thing is considerably harder than the others. Now you guys say the LePros are inconsistent. Maybe in the past the "tip guy" was picking out a "medium".

So now I'm going to try an Elk Master, just to see how they play. Anybody out there like them? I know most of y'all like hard tips so probably not.

Sorry if I sound like Bluewolf

Tom_In_Cincy
02-07-2003, 12:54 PM
Wally,

Trying something new? eh? Well.. you might find that you can feel the "hit" a little better with the elk master. I know that Michael of Michael's uses them on his cue.

I also understand that some players are convinced that the softer tip will produce more english and therefore can hit closer to center for the same effects. Hitting closer to center lessons the deflection and squirt consequences.

I remember trying elk masters tips a long time ago.. and thinking that they were ok.. but mushroomed too much for my likeing. Too much maintenace (burnishing all the time) for my liking.

Good luck.. and let us know how you like it..

02-07-2003, 01:29 PM
Yes Wally, I have used Elk Masters for many years. Tom is pretty much correct on the additional maintenance required but I always felt the benefits were worth it. Anyway. I always loved tinkering with my cues, tips and other paraphenalia.

Rod
02-07-2003, 01:35 PM
Wally,
Elk master doesn't have to be consistant either. I've seen them like a sponge that never firm up to just a med to med soft tip. They are never hard though.

Your tip guy should be able to fit you with a med lepro. All you do is sand the back. If it sands off with a grain texture it is a softer tip. If it sands off towards the powder side it is a hard tip. I can imagine the tip you have and some do get pretty firm. Also the firm ones appear to me to be a darker brown.

I played with blue diamond's, very similar to elk master. Personally I like the tip but there to soft. After a month of play and breaking them so they firm up, there ok.

~~~rod, doesn't care for the long break in

Fran Crimi
02-07-2003, 01:39 PM
I like them, Wally. Used to use them awhile ago and didn't mind the maintenance because the tip played well. The only objection I had, which is why I switched, is that they didn't last very long for me at all. Got my best play out of them for a month, maybe less, then had to change the tip.

Fran

02-07-2003, 01:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> I've always used LePros. When I had them put on I would specify "medium LePro" cause I thought they came in different hardness grades. Then I found out (I think) that they only come in one grade. So last time I just requested "LePro". The darn thing is considerably harder than the others. Now you guys say the LePros are inconsistent. Maybe in the past the "tip guy" was picking out a "medium".

So now I'm going to try an Elk Master, just to see how they play. Anybody out there like them? I know most of y'all like hard tips so probably not.

Sorry if I sound like Bluewolf <hr /></blockquote>


funny you should mention it, wally, i posted here a few months ago that i was going to try elk master and i have. i'm not sure how long it's been but over 3 months i guess and i like it. yes, it was too soft at first but it pounded down and tightened up a bit in the first couple of weeks.

i like a somewhat softer tip. used to like talisman soft but their soft has gotten too hard for me. matter of fact i'll be having a new talisman cut off to put on the next elkmaster. probably worth mentioning, i've got a "good" talisman soft that i use for breaking and it will serve as a decent shooting tip in a pinch. also, i don't play a lot of 9-ball lately and, if anything, most of my shooting has gotten softer over the years. more english, less forward speed.

you know, elkmaster or blue diamond is what we all started shooting with on the house cues and then the lepro, french-type and then layered moories were supposed to be upgrades. since i've got 3 matched cues (predator s.p.w.) i expect i'll wind up with elkmasters at various stages of their life on each of them.

short answer...works for me.

dan

SpiderMan
02-07-2003, 03:09 PM
Hi Wally,

You received correct information in that LePros aren't sold in different hardness grades, but the other side of that coin is that there is variation even within one box. Probably true of any tip, they're punched out of a big piece of hide that can't be 100% homogenous.

Different folks have different thoughts on how to judge LePros before installation. I've always thought that calculating the density (mass divided by volume) would be a good predictor, but I haven't tried it. Sid Vicious says that he can sort them by dropping them into a glass ashtray and listening to the pitch of the sound.

Regarding Elk Masters, I think they play very well. For years I used nothing else, but then I got a lathe and started experimenting /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif. I still think the Elk Master is tops for confidence-building where you're making a bunch of soft little shots with lots of off-center hit (like straight pool and one-pocket). I'm less likely to miscue with an Elk Master than another tip if I happen to hit a spot on the tip that is less than well-chalked.

As Rod and others pointed out, the Elk Master will quickly compact into an excellent-playing tip that holds chalk well but wears out rather quickly. There will also be some percentage of Elk Masters that never compact properly; instead they will turn spongy and require replacement.

I've found that treating the sidewalls to harden them helps to preserve the Elk Master tip's integrity during the critical break-in phase. This can probably be done with many different substances. I've used everything from clear lacquer to super-glue to case-harden Elk Masters.

This Elk Master was case-hardened with clear varnish, but somehow it imparted a greenish tint in the picture:

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/funkychateau/vwp?.dir=/Erwin+Cue&amp;.src=ph&amp;.dnm=Shaped+Elk+Master.jpg&amp;.view =t&amp;.done

Here's a closeup that shows why the Elk Master has legendary chalk-holding ability. Check out the surface porosity after crowning:

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/funkychateau/vwp?.dir=/Erwin+Cue&amp;.src=ph&amp;.dnm=Elk+Master+Crown.jpg&amp;.view= t&amp;.done

SpiderMan

Sid_Vicious
02-07-2003, 03:40 PM
"Sid Vicious says that he can sort them by dropping them into a glass ashtray and listening to the pitch of the sound."

This is the second phase of my selection process. First I look at the flat texturing of the area where the glue will be applied. I look for the "spider web" pattern of the leather to be as tight as I can find, and segregate a handfull from the rest of the box. A few will be so close in visual appearance to one another, and this is where I will find a glass ashtray(PH usually has tones of these) and drop each one a couple of times to check the tone. This is my system, except for the web pattern check. That check was told to me by a long time, now deceased tip guy from DFW. He may have told me the glass thing too, I really can't remember...sid~~~looks for the max hardness in a selected tip

HalSmith
02-07-2003, 04:20 PM
I have used Elk Master but like everyone else they do require alot of maintenance for the mushrooming. I tried a Killer but couldn't control the action on cue ball like I wanted, am now using a Triangle[med] and like it.

TomBrooklyn
02-07-2003, 04:48 PM
Hi Wally,
My first tip was a water buffalo that I used for two years. I just changed it myself to an Elk Master and have about 15 hours on it now. It feels kind of soft. I haven't decided if I like it or not. I only had a couple of tips to chose from and didn't sort through them, but when I sanded the back the leather came off like powder not threads. I forget what grit I used, but it took it down pretty fast. =Tom

02-07-2003, 05:13 PM
i've also heard that some players like to soak the elk master in milk overnight and then put 'em in a vice. now, that seems like too much trouble.


dan

Rod
02-07-2003, 05:19 PM
What kind of milk, was that low fat or 2%? LOL
Dan I use to soak them in clear laquer but I'd rather just buy a tip more to my liking. That was the old days when there just wasn't a choice in tips.

Troy
02-07-2003, 05:48 PM
When a customer wants a Le Pro, I always ask about hardness. I have found them anywhere on a Durometer "D Scale" from about 65 (Medium Soft) to about 80 (Medium Hard). Some even turn to mush and are unuseable, sometimes up to 6-8 in a box of 50.

Elk Master is a fairly Soft tip (Durometer 60). If that's waht you like, the tip is just fine, but the durability is suspect. They do wear quickly and mushroom easily.

Troy

SPetty
02-07-2003, 06:14 PM
Hi Troy,

Where does the triangle tip fall in your durometer readings? I've just had one put on, and it seems softer than the lepro that it replaced...

Troy
02-07-2003, 06:30 PM
Hi... Triangle tips read fairly consistently in the 75 range on my Durometer.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> Hi Troy,

Where does the triangle tip fall in your durometer readings? I've just had one put on, and it seems softer than the lepro that it replaced... <hr /></blockquote>

Sid_Vicious
02-07-2003, 06:45 PM
Ya know I've had one particular tip installer tout for years that triangles are harder than LePro tips, and maybe they are compared to SOME of the LePro tips from a box. The LePro tips I select are harder than Triangles...sid

Troy
02-07-2003, 07:46 PM
Well mmmm, Le Pro tips are generally advertised as Medium-Hard and Triangle tips are generally advertised as Hard. However, Le Pros are notoriously inconsistent while Triangles are fairly consistent. Am I surprise ?? NO !!!

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Ya know I've had one particular tip installer tout for years that triangles are harder than LePro tips, and maybe they are compared to SOME of the LePro tips from a box. The LePro tips I select are harder than Triangles...sid <hr /></blockquote>

SpiderMan
02-08-2003, 05:39 PM
SPetty,

Two variables in this comparison are age and relative thickness. The LePro we removed had a bit of play on it. It was denser than when new (due to compaction) and also thinner than the Triangle we installed. Both of these factors make for a harder feel.

Still, in general, I tell people that the two tips are about equal in hardness. Even though the Triangles are advertised as harder, I find that they feel about the same and if anything the Triangle gives a little more grip and chalk-holding.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> Hi Troy,

Where does the triangle tip fall in your durometer readings? I've just had one put on, and it seems softer than the lepro that it replaced... <hr /></blockquote>

MarkUrsel
02-10-2003, 09:12 PM
I've used Elk Masters for many years. I like the feel and feedback of the soft tip as well as the english you can put on the ball with even a very soft stroke. That's the upside. The downside is that they make long shots a little harder as the tip is pretty "grippy" and will put spin on the cue ball no matter what you do. Unless you hit the ball on the perfect vertical center, you will get curve on the longer soft shots. This is where the break stick comes in handy (with the concrete slab tip) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

mark wilson
02-10-2003, 10:56 PM
Elk Master tips are what Efren Reyes uses exclusively.

Vagabond
02-11-2003, 07:23 PM
Howdy,
There was a pro player with similar name from Quad cities,Illinois born under the zodiac sign of Gemini, and I am wondering whether u are the same.If so when did u move to St.Louis?Cheers
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
02-12-2003, 08:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vagabond:</font><hr> Howdy,
There was a pro player with similar name from Quad cities,Illinois born under the zodiac sign of Gemini, and I am wondering whether u are the same.If so when did u move to St.Louis?Cheers
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Same person, I'm sure. He writes a column for BD. I hope he posts here more often.

mark wilson
02-12-2003, 05:26 PM
Same Mark Wilson, still playing and teaching. I moved to St. Louis to follow the Cardinal baseball team. I got married last year to my lovely girlfriend of four years. Thanks for the interest and I will try to post despite poor computer skills.

02-12-2003, 06:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mark wilson:</font><hr> I got married last year to my lovely girlfriend of four years. <hr /></blockquote>

well, hurrumph. i just think it's terrible and someone should at least point out in the name of decency that four year is just too young for marriage. dating, maybe, but marriage should wait at least until she's twelve.

dan...southern, you know.

Scott Lee
02-12-2003, 09:11 PM
Hi Mark...Good to see you posting here again! I was just talking to Jerry about you last week. We should get together and do another kid's camp

Scott

Rod
02-12-2003, 09:51 PM
Wally,
Did you ever get your tip replaced?

Wally_in_Cincy
02-13-2003, 07:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Wally,
Did you ever get your tip replaced? <hr /></blockquote>

Well Rod, funny you should ask. Yes, on the 12th day the tip guy finally decided to drop it off at SnookerS. It played pretty much like I had hoped. I like it a lot. It is soft but that's what I wanted. Holds chalk well and I shot pretty good with it. I'll probably go ahead and have them put on all my shafts (except for the break cue). Let's see, at 12 days per shaft, that will take 36 days /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Now for a stupid story. I thought they gave me the wrong shaft. The cue has a quick-release joint. The "pilot" part of the joint and the brass insert it slides into have a very tight tolerance. Probably no more than .003" to .005" so it feels tight when you slide it in. I had forgotten that fact and I looked like the proverbial monkey trying to have intimate relations with a football because it just felt too tight. I couldn't get the dam thing together. Up walks Tom_in_Cincy and puts it together in about 2 seconds flat. Man I felt stupid /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm sure the beer had nothing to do with it.

Rod
02-13-2003, 11:44 AM
Wally,
It sounds like you need to drive stakes beside this guy to see if he is still moving! On the 12th day of Christmas my cue man brought to me-------------LOL

Ah Tom the big show off /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif anyone can put a cue together when their sober, can't they Wally? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bob_in_Cincy
02-13-2003, 12:24 PM
<hr /></blockquote>

........ dating, maybe, but marriage should wait at least until she's twelve.

dan...southern, you know. <hr /></blockquote>

But only if she's your cousin. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Bob_in_Cincy &lt;but originally from Kentucky

Bob_in_Cincy
02-13-2003, 12:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> We should get together and do another kid's camp

Scott <hr /></blockquote>

How about an adult camp? Say, in Cincy &lt;hint, hint&gt; /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Regards,
Bob_in_Cincy

Scott Lee
02-13-2003, 09:09 PM
Well Bob...That's not a bad idea! LOL Actually Jerry and I have been talking about an adult camp down in FL, but OH is certainly workable too! I want to do one out in MT

Scott

Tom_In_Cincy
02-13-2003, 09:16 PM
Now let's get this straight...

I was the one with the beer.. and Wally was drinking Orange Juice (in a small glass.. I wonder why?)

There wasn't a trick to this.. I just think I have more experience than Wally of sticking something small into a tight place. Besides, the lighting was bad..

Tom_In_Cincy
02-13-2003, 09:17 PM
OK Scott.. now admit it.. how long have I been asking you to do a clinic in Cincy?

St Paul Gal
02-13-2003, 09:43 PM
Hey Scott, got one better...

How about a camp for a bunch of adults who act like kids...

We could do that one in MN &lt;hint, hint&gt;

BTW, finally shook the big tournament monkey. Won the MN State Ladies AA singles a week ago...

Must have gotten rid of a few the gremlins I had the last time I saw ya ;-)

spg

Scott Lee
02-14-2003, 12:59 AM
SPG...What to GO girl! LOL I KNEW you could do it! Congratulations on the big win. Now, take it on to Vegas!

Scott

Scott Lee
02-14-2003, 01:02 AM
Awwww heck Tom...It's only been THREE years! LMAO Guess I'm gonna have to get serious about it now! LOL The clinic is just one day though...the pool camp concept would be a whole week!

Scott

Wally_in_Cincy
02-14-2003, 07:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Now let's get this straight...

I was the one with the beer.. and Wally was drinking Orange Juice (in a small glass.. I wonder why?)

There wasn't a trick to this.. I just think I have more experience than Wally of sticking something small into a tight place. Besides, the lighting was bad.. <hr /></blockquote>

Oh crap. I was drinking "orange juice" wasn't I? No wonder I could not operate anything mechanical.

Actually I've got it figured out now. My cue case must have been warmed by the heater in my truck which caused the stainless steel pin to expand, consequently it would not mate with the shaft. By the time you looked at it the butt and shaft had both assumed room temperature.

Yeah that's it. That's the ticket.

Wally~~12 miles south of Middletucky.

02-14-2003, 07:15 PM
The elk master tip is one of the worst tips you can use. Only pool halls use them because they are the cheapest tip money can buy. A soft tip does not do anything good. Move up from a Lepro which is med hard, use only a Triangle, it is a hard tip, it is only 60 cents &amp; will play equal to any morri or tallsman or any other multi layered tip you can waste your money on. I set all the power records in the sport using the 60cent triangle, &amp; nobody paid me to use it, I found it by months of comparing every tip on the market. Fast Larry Guninger www.fastlarrypool.com (http://www.fastlarrypool.com)

Troy
02-14-2003, 08:17 PM
I beg to differ with you sir, Pool Rooms do NOT use Elk Master tips simply because they do not last long enough. Most Pool Rooms use Le Pro tips.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> The elk master tip is one of the worst tips you can use. Only pool halls use them because they are the cheapest tip money can buy. <hr /></blockquote>

Tom_In_Cincy
02-14-2003, 09:15 PM
Fast Larry,

Would you mind listing the "power" records you mentioned and under what organization is keeping track of these records?
I know too many players that use nothing but elk masters, and triangles are not the most popular tips in this area at all. Maybe its a Southern 'thing'... soft tips are great for playing bank pool, lots of the area's better bank pool players use the elk master.

Just curious.

SpiderMan
02-14-2003, 10:54 PM
I prefer triangles also, and use them exclusively when I'm not experimenting, but yours is a blanket statement that is essentially incorrect for it's generality. You overlooked a lot of applications.

Also, Elk Masters are used on "house cues" for a variety of reasons. For starters, many patrons don't chalk often enough, stroke well enough, or stay sober enough to keep a hard tip on the ball. I charge $5 to service house cues, and I don't really give a rat's ass whether I put on a 30-cent Elk Master, a 50-cent LePro, or a 55-cent Triangle. If the Triangles really made everyone happier, it would mean more business for me, but that's just not the case.

Another reason you see so many soft tips on house cues is that's what they come with. One bar owner I know doesn't re-tip; he uses really cheap cues (about $7) and when the tips are played down to the ferrules he just junks them and buys new.

SpiderMan

02-14-2003, 11:05 PM
elk master is what pool halls put on their house cues, they want the cheapiest tip they can find. Elk's are lousy, all they do is wear out fast &amp; mushroom. I have done tests on all tips &amp; a soft tip does nothing well, on every test the hard tip out performs it. All you need to know about tips is use a Triangle, this 60cent tip will perform as well as the Morri or any of the high priced multilayed tips being sold today. This comes from my 50 years of playing experience, &amp; my custom cue maker, Ray Schuler who had 60 years of experience, also shared that same view, save your money, put on a triangle, &amp; yes, it is harder than a lepro which is med/hard, a triangle is hard. Fast Larry www.fastlarrypool.com (http://www.fastlarrypool.com)

Wally_in_Cincy
02-15-2003, 12:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr>
....Elk's are lousy, all they do is wear out fast &amp; mushroom. I have done tests on all tips &amp; a soft tip does nothing well, on every test the hard tip out performs it..... <hr /></blockquote>

Aw geez, now you tell me....LOL

Wally in the Natti~~will stick with the Elk for now /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif