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View Full Version : Charlie Williams - have you NO shame?!



Ross
02-10-2003, 12:14 AM
First let me say that these comments are coming from someone who has previously given Charlie Williams and the UPA the benefit of the doubt. When others were blasting him for not sanctioning last year's Open, I reasoned that sticking to standards (money needs to be posted ahead of time) was important for the long-term welfare of the players, even is it is unpopular. I assumed that the sometimes arrogant tone of some of the UPA's public statements were just start-up PR mistakes. Everything would get better, I optimistically hoped.

When he advertised his first Predator Pro School at $400/person for 18 students and 3 pros, I still wished him good luck. That price was in line with other schools, since it was effectively 6 students per group getting two days of instruction. And though at least 2 of the instructors were not that experienced as such, at least they were top pros and because of that their views held some extra value.

But now he has announced his second school for 18 players at (are you ready for this?) $750 per person! This is an 87% increase in fees for his second school! This does not seem the work of someone who is trying to give something back to the sport (while being reasonably compensated for his time), but rather the action of someone who is greedy as hell!!! That is a total session fee of $13,500 or $4500 per instructor for 2 days! Or if you prefer, $281/hour (assuming 2 full 8 hour days) for the instructors. That price is outrageous and I hope few are tempted to pay these exorbitant rates. It is many times the rates of nationally renowned instructors such as Jerry Brieseth who has 20+ years of teaching experience. And remember, just as being an NBA star does not make a player a great coach, being a pro pool player does not necessarily make a good instructor!

It's no skin off my back, since I will not be ripped off like this. But -- and I'm sorry to say it -- I've given up on my optimistic view that Charlie Williams in something other than an arrogant, greedy, jerk (not the term I wanted to use, but I will be polite /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif). I urge all of you boycott his greedy endeavor.

And,again I say - Charlie, have you NO shame!

bigbro6060
02-10-2003, 02:12 AM
I thought you were gonna talk about Charlie admitting he likes the Backstreet Boys /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

the truth is, there are too many fools with too much money in this world and the USA has more than it's fair share so i'm sure even at the higher price, his 'pool school' will be full

Rich R.
02-10-2003, 06:15 AM
Ross, I have to agree with everything you are saying about CW. It only took me a few minutes of personal contact with him to learn that he is an extremely arrogant jerk. JMHO.

However, he may not be the one to blame for the price increase for the Predator Pool School. I never thought I would be defending CW. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Although he may be involved in some way, Charlie is not listed as one of the instrutors for this version of the Predator Pool School.
http://www.predatorcues.com/english/poolschool.htm

jjinfla
02-10-2003, 06:37 AM
Fool me once - shame on you.
Fool me twice - shame on me.

But, people will pay the price, not for the lessons, but just to hob-nob with Archer, Robles and Varner.

Must be some of those filthy "rich" Republicans the Democrats keep telling us about.

Just think what they could have charged if the school had Earl Strickland as one of the instructors.

Jake~~~still waiting for some feedback about the last school from some of the students. Other than from a SL2.

silverbullet
02-10-2003, 07:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Fool me once - shame on you.
Fool me twice - shame on me.

But, people will pay the price, not for the lessons, but just to hob-nob with Archer, Robles and Varner.

Must be some of those filthy "rich" Republicans the Democrats keep telling us about.

Just think what they could have charged if the school had Earl Strickland as one of the instructors.

Jake~~~still waiting for some feedback about the last school from some of the students. Other than from a SL2. <hr /></blockquote>

I did not take the school. I only observed. It was ww who took it and he is not a sl2.he did post ccb about this. Just wanted to clear that up

blu

Fran Crimi
02-10-2003, 07:42 AM
First: I heard feedback from three people who attended the first one. All said it was very good, they had to work out some kinks but attributed it to being the first one. All said it was definitely worth the money.

Next: The PGA has a golf school. The cost is $750 per person for half the amount of hours as the pool workshop. You stand at a driving range with a lot more people than in the pool workshop, and you work with a few of the golf pros who aren't teachers, just golfers, and not even the top-ranked ones. There's a waiting list a mile long to get into this thing.

And finally, the only objection I have to this whole thing is Charlie's hit and run tactic in posting on the CCB. I think that's unfair. But as far as the cost, do you all remember how many tournaments these guys played their hearts out in and took home peanuts? They're the best in the world at what they do and they are trying to make a legitimate living out of it. How can you fault them for that? A lot of people won't be able to afford it, but that's the way life is. Maybe if these guys can finally make some kind of living off of pool they can give back a little more, but right now I don't blame them one bit.

Fran

Tom_In_Cincy
02-10-2003, 07:57 AM
Two Days with TWO Hall of Famers (well one anyway.. but Johnny Archer will eventually be there) autographs, hobnobbing, and learning something about pool.

Predator is sponsering this event, and you know how many people like the Predator cues. There will probably be freebies for the students.

Its not a bad deal if you think that for $750 you could buy a good Predator cue, and still need the instructions.

CW spaming the forums is still crude, but its better than being on his mailing list.

Fred Agnir
02-10-2003, 08:18 AM
I know this board isn't supposed to be setup for advertisements. But, in this case, we're not talking about selling my old Meucci on E-bay.
We're not walking a fine line here. We're talking about pool instruction from Nick Varner, Johnny Archer, and Tony Robles.

IMHO, professional announcements should be encouraged here. On the other hand, it would be nice if Charlie added something to the discussions once in a while.

The whole argument about cost is really a non-issue. If 18 people pay it, then the price was right for them.

Good luck Charlie. I hope you contribute something other than announcements in the future.

Fred

cuechick
02-10-2003, 08:21 AM
I have to agree Fran, I think it is not outrageous. Doesn't the pool school in Vancover cost 2500.00+? Also, I would not assume that they are getting ALL that money. Predator may take a cut and their is the expense of travel to VF. Predator is notriously cheap with their sponsorship, only giving equipment, so I would not assume they are picking up those cost, they are probally deducting it from the fee. I know one former WC who wrapped his break cue with black tape in protest of their cheap ways!
I think that it's an amazing line up of instructors and if one can afford it, I am sure it will be money well spent.
As far as hit and run Charlie, imo, whatever! This is a place to share information about pool, he is under no obligation to exchange in banter. He has taken a lot under his belt, I am sure he is busy and he is not the only Pro, who lurks but doesn't post. I think it is hard for Pro's in these forums, their comments are over analysized and picked apart, I have seen some out right slamming so it makes sense that they would rather stay in the background.
I admire your willingness to express yourself; but have seen you also fall victim to that...it is a tough pool world!

#### leonard
02-10-2003, 08:27 AM
I have to agree with Fran. Some golf pros charge $2500 for a half day of their time. If people can afford that price maybe pool is starting to appeal to the Rich. Golf has lost its love affair with the Celebrity Pro/Am maybe pool can capture the Celebs.####

Popcorn
02-10-2003, 08:37 AM
Charlie is just trying to find the "what the market will bare" point. If they could get $2000. they would. I guess, more power to them. I personally don't think much of Charlie, and doubt any of his motives have any benevolence in them. On Charlie's list of priorities, first and foremost is Charlie. Nothing wrong with that I guess, it is not against the law. It is just not a very good personal attribute, for someone you are doing business with.

SPetty
02-10-2003, 08:49 AM
Tap Tap Tap. Well put, Fred.

silverbullet
02-10-2003, 09:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
The whole argument about cost is really a non-issue. If 18 people pay it, then the price was right for them.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Yep. A thing is worth what you can get for it. It can go either way, getting less than what a thing seems to be worth or getting more./ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bw

Fran Crimi
02-10-2003, 09:26 AM
Cuechick, I agree that Predator probably does get their share of the profits. They're probably laying out some costs to stage the event.

I don't believe anyone should take advantage of the forum by advertising unless they are contributing something back. If they don't think they can handle the hits they'd get if they contributed, then they shouldn't contribute. But they shouldn't advertise either. To me, that makes a statement of: you folks aren't good enough to converse with, but I'll take your money just the same. That's how it appears to me.

Advertising is something that you pay for. If there's no fee involved then the least that person can do is to be a little communicative.

Fran

eg8r
02-10-2003, 10:37 AM
I am currently on the mailing list from Predator. In the email it talks about the school (same thing as Charlies post word for word). This is fine because I requested this mailing. The post on the board would also be fine if Charlie would contribute to board in a manner different than spamming all the time.

I think it would be pretty cool learning from Nick, Johnny and Tony. I also think since the first tournament was such a success then why the price hike. Maybe it is to help pay higher salaries of Nick and Johnny. I am not sure, but I hope everyone has a great time.


eg8r (I like the email from Predator. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif)

eg8r
02-10-2003, 10:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cuechick:</font><hr> As far as hit and run Charlie, imo, whatever! This is a place to share information about pool, he is under no obligation to exchange in banter. <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BD CCB Board Rules:</font><hr> - Participants may not use the Forums to post or transmit advertisements or commercial solicitations of any kind. <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote> This is blatently disobeying rules he agreed to when he signed on and started posting.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cuechick:</font><hr> He has taken a lot under his belt, I am sure he is busy and he is not the only Pro, who lurks but doesn't post. <hr /></blockquote> The problem is not that he lurks, I highly doubt he does. The problem is advertising and running. He does not reply to any questions or offer any other substance to the board.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cuechick:</font><hr> . I think it is hard for Pro's in these forums, their comments are over analysized and picked apart, I have seen some out right slamming so it makes sense that they would rather stay in the background. <hr /></blockquote> You are absolutely correct. I sometimes wonder why the Pros do come on the board and take the abuse. I personally am not a big supporter of CW, but if there are legitimate questions asked about his advertisment, why can't he answer those. You are right that he is under no obligation to answer the questions, but he is under the obligation to follow board rules. I feel everyone on the board seems pretty lenient to other posters who advertise but that is only because we seem them even when they are not advertising.

eg8r

eg8r
02-10-2003, 10:50 AM
AMEN.

eg8r /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ross
02-10-2003, 10:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> Although he may be involved in some way, Charlie is not listed as one of the instrutors for this version of the Predator Pool School.
http://www.predatorcues.com/english/poolschool.htm <hr /></blockquote>
Rich, Charlie stated in his first post that he and Phil Mueller are owners of the Predator Pool School. I imagine they organize the school and take a cut even if Charlie isn't teaching. In any case Charlie as an owner/originator of the school is responsible for it's pricing policies.

Ross
02-10-2003, 11:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> First: I heard feedback from three people who attended the first one. All said it was very good, they had to work out some kinks but attributed it to being the first one. All said it was definitely worth the money.

Next: The PGA has a golf school. The cost is $750 per person for half the amount of hours as the pool workshop. You stand at a driving range with a lot more people than in the pool workshop, and you work with a few of the golf pros who aren't teachers, just golfers, and not even the top-ranked ones. There's a waiting list a mile long to get into this thing.
And finally, the only objection I have to this whole thing is Charlie's hit and run tactic in posting on the CCB. I think that's unfair.
But as far as the cost, do you all remember how many tournaments these guys played their hearts out in and took home peanuts? They're the best in the world at what they do and they are trying to make a legitimate living out of it. How can you fault them for that? A lot of people won't be able to afford it, but that's the way life is. Maybe if these guys can finally make some kind of living off of pool they can give back a little more, but right now I don't blame them one bit.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Fran, I agree completely that pool pros need and deserve to make more money. I guess the chief motivation of my post was really just disappointment. I see Charlie Williams with all of his talent, youth, and energy and I had hoped he would use these assets wisely to be a positive leader in pool. Jacking up the price of the school did not seem to be a step in that direction.

To succeed as a leader, it is my opinion that Charlie will need to learn to take the longer view of things and learn the value of building goodwill in an industry. Jacking up the price of his second school just because the market will bear it is, imho, taking the short term view.

Imagine the alternative. Charlie takes the time to respond to posts and questions about his school, etc. like you, RandyG, Scott Lee, and so many others do. He uses the board to elicit input on what players would like in a pool school, making the players feel like they are part of process. He keeps the price of the school more reasonable and affordable. And so on... How long do you think it would take him to build up a loyal following that would be singing his praises and making sure he can fill as many pool schools as he wants for as long as he wants? As the pool schools reputation grows so would the interest of corporate sponsors, which in turn could help keep the school affordable.

If he took the longer view, I believe he would be a greater asset to pool AND would end up the beneficiary himself, both financially and in terms of personal satisfaction.

Of course I have no right to tell him what he should or should not do. Those are his decisions. I had just had high hopes for what he could potentially bring to the sport, and in that context the dramatic increase in the price of the school just struck me the wrong way.

Ross
02-10-2003, 11:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
...
The whole argument about cost is really a non-issue. If 18 people pay it, then the price was right for them.
...
<hr /></blockquote>
True, Fred, if all you care about is getting the money from those 18 people. Cost is an issue though if you are interested in building a large following. Have you ever eaten at a good but overpriced restaurant? They get your money that time, but how likely are you to spread the good word and bring them in more customers?

Ross
02-10-2003, 12:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cuechick:</font><hr> I have to agree Fran, I think it is not outrageous. Doesn't the pool school in Vancover cost 2500.00+? Also, I would not assume that they are getting ALL that money. Predator may take a cut and their is the expense of travel to VF. ... <hr /></blockquote>
Well, to be fair, you have to consider that the $2500 includes four nights in a luxury hotel in a "paradise" setting, so part of what you are getting is a luxurious vacation. Also, Allison, Gerda, and Mike Massey are bigger stars than Charlie, Nick, and even Johnny because of their greater TV exposure. Paul Potier has been teaching pool for many years, and Allison takes her job seriously enough to attend RandyG's pool school to work on her teaching methods.

As far as travel expenses, I expect that the Predator Pool School instructors will already be in town for Hopkins SuperBilliardsExpo, which ends the day before the school starts. And if Predator is taking a cut, then why do they get name sponsorship? More likely they contribute the cue that is given as a prize in exchange for the advertising they get from the schools name.

Wally_in_Cincy
02-10-2003, 12:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>
......Imagine the alternative. Charlie takes the time to respond to posts and questions about his school, etc. like you, RandyG, Scott Lee, and so many others do. He uses the board to elicit input on what players would like in a pool school, making the players feel like they are part of process. He keeps the price of the school more reasonable and affordable. And so on... How long do you think it would take him to build up a loyal following that would be singing his praises and making sure he can fill as many pool schools as he wants for as long as he wants? As the pool schools reputation grows so would the interest of corporate sponsors, which in turn could help keep the school affordable.............<hr /></blockquote>

Great points Ross.

Here's a thought, maybe we could all "audit" the course like bluewolf did. "Free" is a pretty reasonable price /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif:D /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Jimmy Mendoza
02-10-2003, 12:43 PM
I don't think these guys are too out of line with cost, but I don't think that comparing the price of golf instruction is relevant. Golf is a &lt;insert some big number here&gt; dollar industry, and pool is not. Golf has some of the wealthiest people in the world behind it, while pool does not. It can also be argued that the golf schools MUST charge high rates if they want to maintain a decent student/teacher ratio. I don't think that pool schools have that problem yet. Again, I don't think they're out of line with their prices, but my opinion isn't at all based on what golf schools charge.

Fran Crimi
02-10-2003, 12:48 PM
Very true, Ross. It does take a good strategy to build goodwill. This may sound a little strange to you, but I'm not all that sure that goodwill of the masses should be the objective here. At least not at first. Think a minute about how the wealthy think. They won't attend something where the price is "too cheap" because they generally feel that you get what you pay for. Also, there's no denying that there is often an "elitist" attitude that goes along with wealth.

We need those types of people involved in the game right now. I see them as the influential ones who work for bigger companies and who can maybe even influence future corporate sponsorship.

Truth be told: they need to feel special, and that means if they're in the same group with the "lower level folks" (sorry, but that's how it is) then they aren't interested.

Arnold Palmer was famous for doing the same thing. He catered to the higher income bracket and changed the face of golf. As a result, everyone benefited.

But as for pool...well, we started at the bottom and are struggling to work our way up. Maybe we should be doing the opposite.

Just a thought,

Fran

Steve Lipsky
02-10-2003, 12:53 PM
Ross, I think you've brought up some great points.

Still, I do take issue with your contention that Gerda and Mike Massey are bigger stars than Charlie, Nick, and Johnny. I don't think a non-pool fan would be able to pick any of them out of a lineup. HOWEVER, a true pool fan will have a much greater respect for the playing skill of Williams, Varner, and Archer.

No disrespect to Ms. Hofstatter and Mr. Massey, but I cannot see any justification in calling them bigger stars than the other men.

I'll agree that Paradise Pool School can charge more because of the hotel and the setting, but if people are paying a premium because of the "celebrity status" (even counting Allison) of the instructors, I think this is fairly crazy.

Just my opinion,
Steve

Fred Agnir
02-10-2003, 12:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
...
The whole argument about cost is really a non-issue. If 18 people pay it, then the price was right for them.
...
<hr /></blockquote>
True, Fred, if all you care about is getting the money from those 18 people. Cost is an issue though if you are interested in building a large following. Have you ever eaten at a good but overpriced restaurant? They get your money that time, but how likely are you to spread the good word and bring them in more customers? <hr /></blockquote>

Well, let me answer you this way. Just how fair would it be for me to trash that restaurant for increasing the price if I never ate there once?

If the meal is worth it, then the business will stand on its own merits. It's not like I'll be eating there every night. Same with pool schools.

Fred

Rich R.
02-10-2003, 01:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>Rich, Charlie stated in his first post that he and Phil Mueller are owners of the Predator Pool School. I imagine they organize the school and take a cut even if Charlie isn't teaching. In any case Charlie as an owner/originator of the school is responsible for it's pricing policies. <hr /></blockquote>
I new there was a good reason for NOT defending CW.
Sorry Ross, I didn't remember that and you are probably correct about CW getting a cut and being, at least partially, responsible for the pricing.

sliprock
02-10-2003, 01:36 PM
If you have a good grasp of the fundamentals of this game and can run a few balls then I don't feel that $750 is out of line for 2 days with a handful of champions. I had the oppurtunity to work with Grady Mathews a couple of years ago for about 4 hours. We didn't work on any fudamentals, just strategy and I got to "pick" his brain and find out what he thinks in certain situations. It was probably the best money that I've ever spent on my game. Having said this, the $750 might be a little steep, if you're a beginner that needs help with the fundamentals. I think you could get more Bang for your buck by seeing a good instructor in your local area. But, if you can afford the $750, and want to hang out with some World Champions, then I would say, Go for it..

Steve Lipsky
02-10-2003, 02:00 PM
I agree. While the price might seem expensive at first, these guys are among the best in the world at what they do. They deserve to be compensated.

Compare this to attending a political fundraiser or something at $1,000 a plate. There, you just pay to hobnob. These guys at the Pool School are actually teaching you really valuable stuff. In other words, you're getting a service that may last you your whole life.

- Steve

Sid_Vicious
02-10-2003, 02:26 PM
I'm still in your court on this one. No matter how the number of hours gets crunched for a class of 18, you just ain't gettin' enough individual time for your buck. It does seem to me that these guys have done like the oil companies...seen that people will pay more so they're going after the chumps who actually WILL, and I mean line up to do it...sid

silverbullet
02-10-2003, 02:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>
......

Here's a thought, maybe we could all "audit" the course like bluewolf did. "Free" is a pretty reasonable price /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif:D /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Here was the deal. ww and I went to our hometown and he took the school. I came by at the end of each day to pick him up. So I got to observe the tail end of it, talk to a few of the students and I met mika and charlie. Tony was busy on the other side of the room so I did not get to meet him.

blu

Popcorn
02-10-2003, 02:56 PM
It depends on someone's goals. Pool is such a slowly acquired skill, I don't see a lot of value in a crash course. If someone can afford it, have fun, but I think it is more of a fantasy camp then a real learning experience. That is my opinion though, I don't see someone coming away, playing better to any extent if at all. I guess I am not much of a celebrity worshiper myself and don't really understand the fan mindset. All things being equal though, I guess they have the right to get what ever someone is willing to pay, but I think if learning pool is what someone are after, it is not the best use of their funds. It is hard for me to resign myself from my dislike for Charlie personally so I should probably not even comment, but that is my honest opinion, if someone asked my advice if they should attend.

arn3
02-10-2003, 08:33 PM
if there were enough lame players to shell out $400 for a couple of days in the first place,,,,why shouldn't lazy pro pool players' eyes light up at all the cash they can rake in with virtually no effort.
how does this not do anything but reaffirm one's faith in the ability of pool players to jump at the chance of something for nothing. i mean, CW didn't even give his "school" a chance to evolve and grow. HE'S GONNA MILK YOU RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!

arn3
02-10-2003, 08:43 PM
the speed at which CW has jumped on the idea of escalating his "school" rates without allowing his "school" to grow/evolve should give anyone reason to pause and question value of return on money spent. and the whole fund raiser parallel doesn't apply, because all any fundraiser is is a chance to hob-nob with celebs. if that is how pool students are treating this "seminar", then they can be as frivolous with their cash as they want. but then that devalues the point of this "school", doesn't it? they then may as well advertize "get together with some tops pros and chat about the game. have your picture taken with the best pro players in america". and they can gather a lot of info informally without the cash expenditure.

Scott Lee
02-10-2003, 09:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cuechick:</font><hr> I have to agree Fran, I think it is not outrageous. Doesn't the pool school in Vancover cost 2500.00+? Also, I would not assume that they are getting ALL that money. Predator may take a cut and their is the expense of travel to VF. ... <hr /></blockquote>
Well, to be fair, you have to consider that the $2500 includes four nights in a luxury hotel in a "paradise" setting, so part of what you are getting is a luxurious vacation. Also, Allison, Gerda, and Mike Massey are bigger stars than Charlie, Nick, and even Johnny because of their greater TV exposure. Paul Potier has been teaching pool for many years, and Allison takes her job seriously enough to attend RandyG's pool school to work on her teaching methods. <hr /></blockquote>

Ross...That is also $2500 Canadien, which is only about $1700 U.S. dollars...but then you have to get there! LOL
All in all, I agree with both you and Fran!

Scott

02-10-2003, 09:45 PM
If they can get a full class at $750 each, and guys like Robles, Varner, and Archer get paid halfway decent for contributing, I say GREAT! If I was anywhere within driving distance, I would attend, but that's just my opinion. I don't think a beginner would get anything out of this (except the obvious associating with top players), but I can see it being beneficial to advanced players. There's nothing wrong with charging the full price the market will bear, and they don't know what that price is yet since this is only their second attempt. Varner is in the Hall of Fame, Archer is a cinch for it, and I've never heard anything but good about Robles. These guys deserve to be paid well for their time. Any percentage Mr. Williams or Predator gets for this is between them and the instructors and shouldn't concern us. I think the price is reasonable for instruction from top professionals.

snipershot
02-10-2003, 11:23 PM
$750 is outrageous, it's a shame that 18 people will fork out that much money for this, sure you are getting world class instruction that only a handful have the skill and knowledge of Archer, Varner, and Robles, but is it really worth it? I question how much you can learn in only two days that would dramatically increase your skill. The instruction you will get is simply the best but at this price it is simply a case of greed.

arn3
02-11-2003, 02:33 AM
yes,,,it is simply a matter of economics. what the market can bear. i guess some who attended found it helpful. they'll see if their game is improved as a result, down the road. average "students" quickly forget. they continually need refreshers. in the end, they are average for many reasons that even good teaching can't resolve. good students? well, i happen to think that good players/students can simply WATCH and learn. they have better insight.

bluewolf
02-11-2003, 07:30 AM
For those of us who do not want to go or who do not have the money to go that is our concern. If someone else wants to go and is willing to spend the money, what business is that of mine?

One personal story. There was this lady who was spending big bucks for this buddist breathing method. I had heard from some people who took it and raved about it. At first I said no, she was materialistic and it was a ripoff. Then I thought again, listened to more people and forked out the money. It turned out to be one of the best experiences in my life.

So was the lady ripping us off? Probably. Does it matter? Not to me, it is what I received that matters. I think it is called supply and demand.

Perhaps this school will turn out to be someone's best expereince. Who am I to judge what is good for another or what price is too much for a mountain top experience?

blu

eg8r
02-11-2003, 08:03 AM
I really think your post and a few of the other posts are moving in the wrong direction. This thread was not started (I believe) to be negative towards the people that actually do attend. Everyone here agrees that your money is your money, do what you want with it.

I think the issue with this thread was to point out that Charlie's school has just upped the price of his school after 1 single class. I think the thread is more worried about how benevolent Charlie really is. If the first class was such a raving success, why the increase. I look at a success as everything went as planned, which includes expected profit. By almost doubling the cost on only the second class, it appears profit was not quite enough.

Imagine if the new Nissan 350Z is a raving success and they sell millions of the car. Maybe next year Nissan should double the price. I understand I am being sarcastic and the quantities of money are not even in the same ballpark, but the attitude is the same.

eg8r

#### leonard
02-11-2003, 09:22 AM
Fran I have told this story before when I was running the Albany Golden Cue we opened up with Joe Balsis playing Irving Crane a two day afternoon and evening and we drew maybe 200 people for the 4 games. Six months later I played Irving Crane at Wolferts Roost CC and drew over 250 people and another 100 were turned away it seems that women weren't allowed into the mens section under any circumstances. That is when I knew the important people would support pool in their environment. At one poolplayers meeting I tried to convince the players to give up poolrooms and devote the effort in having tourneys at golf clubs. They laughed. That was 30 + years ago and they still haven't caught on.####

Popcorn
02-11-2003, 09:26 AM
I would be curious if your husband will be attending the school again? If so why, if not why? Do you think they will be getting any return business? Would he whole heatedly recommend it to your friends? I am serious, it will tell us what he really thought of the experience. I would like to hear about his weekend, his impressions of the quality of the teaching, how was the time budgeted, does he feel he really learned anything that will stick? And most of all, would he go again. We are all just talking here, but he knows from first hand experience. I think everybody would like to hear about it in objective honest terms. Take your time and tell us about the whole weekend.

Fran Crimi
02-11-2003, 09:50 AM
I can't say what was on anyone's mind when they decided to raise the price, but I can tell you what it feels like to teach one of these things. It is utterly and totally exhausting. I don't think these guys realized how much work it was going to be until it was over. Plus, on top of all the teaching, how many days of preparation (without pay) do you think there may have been involved? Should that be factored in?

Right now I'm doing my little 1 1/2 hour workshops here on Sundays and when it's over I'm spent for the day. Can't do much of anything afterwards.

Here's another thing to factor-in. What if their students told them it was worth more than the price they paid, and that they were charging too little for the course? If you were the instructor, would you raise the price, especially after realizing how much work it was?

Not for anything, but if you're going to speculate, then you have to speculate both ways.

Fran

Wally_in_Cincy
02-11-2003, 10:22 AM
http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=56625&amp;Forum =All_Forums&amp;Words=whitewolf&amp;Match=Username&amp;Searchp age=0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Old=allposts&amp;Main=56610&amp;Search=true #Post56625

bluewolf
02-11-2003, 11:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I would be curious if your husband will be attending the school again? If so why, if not why? Do you think they will be getting any return business? Would he whole heatedly recommend it to your friends? I am serious, it will tell us what he really thought of the experience. I would like to hear about his weekend, his impressions of the quality of the teaching, how was the time budgeted, does he feel he really learned anything that will stick? And most of all, would he go again. We are all just talking here, but he knows from first hand experience. I think everybody would like to hear about it in objective honest terms. Take your time and tell us about the whole weekend. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks popcorn. Actually ww did write a post after the weekend to the original thread announcing the school. I would not want to put words in his mouth so I will tell him that people here want to hear about it and will show him your post.

Also ww said that they did ask them about how much the class cost, if it was about right or should be more, so will see if he can tell you the answer to that also.

I did speak to several of the students and they had good things to say.I only obseved for a short while and so do not have a complete picture. One thing I did observe is that the class is geared towards people who have a decent knowlege of english, banks, kicks and other things. Since I do not know banks and just use a little english etc, I would not have benefitted.

So to me, they do not cover the fundamentals but assume a fairly advanced student.

blu

Popcorn
02-11-2003, 11:33 AM
I am curious his opinion now, since some time has passed and the excitement of the moment is over. Did he really learn anything, how has his game improved since then and most of all, does he have plans to do it again?

bluewolf
02-11-2003, 11:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> I really think your post and a few of the other posts are moving in the wrong direction. This thread was not started (I believe) to be negative towards the people that actually do attend. Everyone here agrees that your money is your money, do what you want with it.

I think the issue with this thread was to point out that Charlie's school has just upped the price of his school after 1 single class. I think the thread is more worried about how benevolent Charlie really is. If the first class was such a raving success, why the increase. I look at a success as everything went as planned, which includes expected profit. By almost doubling the cost on only the second class, it appears profit was not quite enough.

eg8r
<hr /></blockquote>

Did it ever occur to you and others here that Archer and Varner want more money? That they would not do it for the original 400$ The first time was the first time. What about Tony and Mika? How do you know if they would do it again for the same money, especially when they have motel expenses in valley forge which are double what they are in roanoke va. And what about the pool room costs. Guys and dolls in roanoke charges about 3$ an hour. It is twice that in dc and probably is in vf. Who knows. Sounds like everyone is going on about the price when the school is being conducted in a city where the expenses including the pool hall are likely double the first one.

Seems like a lot of going on with opinions that have no foundation in the facts JMHO.

Also, the post did say that they thought it was a rip off. I was saying essentially in my post that I would not care. If it was something that I wanted and it was the only place I could get that thing, I would either save the money and pay the price or do without if I was real poor. Like I said, like it or not. It comes down to a simple economic principle. Supply vs demand.

But really , what I got from the original post was the increase was too much and they questioned Charlie's motives and and felt that it was a rip off. One thing of note. This seems very personal. I do not see anyone complaining about tony,mika, nick or johnny yet they have their price too and undoubtedly had something to do with the cost.

blu

Popcorn
02-11-2003, 11:56 AM
I think their market may actually be the better player looking to make that step up. A beginner or even slightly advanced player can't really benefit from what they have to share or at least could not be gotten from an average instructor. They probably have to dumb down the teaching a bit and that is, I would think, not much fun or rewarding for them. Beginners don't need a world champion to get started. If you figure the tens of thousands of pool players that may play far enough above the average player. There is a good market for what they are offering. Their price does not even matter if you get what you want. A thousand a day for one on one instruction to a player that can benefit would be fine, maybe even more. I have had the benefit of knowing and hanging with many top players, and to be honest, I don't know what price I could put on what I have learned over the years. Sitting and watching a one pocket match with Danny D. and having him critique the match for hours, (and he can do it too) I feel like I should be paying for this. This kind of experience is just not available to the average guy. Being around top players is definitely an advantage.

eg8r
02-11-2003, 12:28 PM
I agree with all that you said. The point I was trying to make is...Charlie came on here afterwards and boasted what a huge success the school was. I do not consider it a huge success if afterwards you do not feel you were paid properly. If exhaustion and preparation were figured into the asking price in the beginning, then fine, they screwed up and feel they worked for free. I do not think it should have been heralded as such a huge success when they feel they were not compensated properly. I am sure it was a success for patrons, but not for CW and company.

Maybe they have learned from their mistakes and that is the reason for the price increase, fine, but if you take it for face value then it does not look quite as good. To water it all down...Charlie came on and let everyone know about the school and price. Certain # of people paid, arrived, participated and went home. CW then comes on and says what a huge success the school was and everyone should look forward to the next one. The next school is scheduled and without any sort of reason, the cost is almost doubled. That is a very basic way of looking at it, but it is also the most straight forward way. If every thing was a huge success why the need to increase so much? Just a little explanation would help, it is not required and they are under no obligation to provide, but it would be nice.

eg8r

eg8r
02-11-2003, 12:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Did it ever occur to you and others here that Archer and Varner want more money? <hr /></blockquote> I ask you the same, did it ever occur to you that, yes I did take that into account? Yes I did take that into account and I thought about other reasons why. If CW had put forth enough thought in the beginning, then he would have set up a certain pay-for-show amount. That way everyone gets the same. If one person feels they are worth more, they should either decide to forgo that amount or just not participate. I know of quite a few pool halls that do not have J. Lee do exhibitions because of her extraordinary asking price.

[ QUOTE ]
How do you know if they would do it again for the same money, especially when they have motel expenses in valley forge which are double what they are in roanoke va. And what about the pool room costs. Guys and dolls in roanoke charges about 3$ an hour. It is twice that in dc and probably is in vf. Who knows. Sounds like everyone is going on about the price when the school is being conducted in a city where the expenses including the pool hall are likely double the first one. <hr /></blockquote> Once again, this should have been taken care of in the development stage. Have a certain price they are willing to pay the PH and then find PH's that are willing to do it for that.
[ QUOTE ]
what I got from the original post was the increase was too much and they questioned Charlie's motives and and felt that it was a rip off. <hr /></blockquote> Yes you are correct here as far as I am concerned...Maybe they felt the new price was rip off because they were comparing school 1 to school 2. Charlie boasted of a huge success at school 1 however he is not offering anything more for school 2. Why then the increase? CW has not posted the reasons for the increase, but when a consumer is purchasing something and they see the price has gone up by almost double, the consumer will generally want to know what extras have been added or the reason for the increase. It is never a problem to increase the price, just maybe a little explanation would help.

eg8r

Popcorn
02-11-2003, 12:55 PM
I would have not raised the price even if I wanted to. I may have after getting a little established, but not right away and not by that amount. As far as how much work it is, if you enjoy what you are doing that does not even enter into it. Complain when you have no work to do, or no job, not how hard you work. If you don't want to do it, don't. I always see that in business, they beg and do anything for work when they first start. Then once a little successful, complain about being over worked. Most never seem to appreciate what they have once they have it.

Tom_In_Cincy
02-11-2003, 01:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I would have not raised the price even if I wanted to. I may have after getting a little established, but not right away and not by that amount.

<font color="blue"> Raising prices is a very big part of any business in this country. Raise the price and see what the market will bear. 18 people will pay the price.
</font color>


As far as how much work it is, if you enjoy what you are doing that does not even enter into it. Complain when you have no work to do, or no job, not how hard you work. If you don't want to do it, don't.

<font color="blue"> Popcorn, your complaints about what other people's "complaints" is confusing. Its only ok to complain if you don't work?

I'm sure if you are still interested in expressing your feelings about CW and Preadator's Clinic you will continue to do so.

Archer and Varner are not just good pool players.. they are GREAT pool Players. And besides... it's not how much they are charging.. it's how much would you play to get that level of experience from two of the World's greatest Pool players? And, Tony Robles is ruputed to be a great instructor.

</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Fran Crimi
02-11-2003, 01:08 PM
It's obvious you're an intelligent person. Is it possible you may be overanalyzing the situation a bit? It was a success. The class was filled to capacity and the student feedback was positive. That makes it a success. If the feedback was overwhelmingly postitve, that makes it a huge success. If they didn't fill the class and the feedback was negative, it wasn't a success.

As for cost, I've done exactly what these guys did, plenty of times. I took a guess. There are always things that factor into the equation of something new that you can't possibly figure in until after it's over. I've been teaching for a lot of years and I still sell myself short once in awhile when I come across a new situation where I have to take a guess. It happens. The next time that situation comes up, I increase the price, and yes, I've doubled it, too. That's how off-the-mark I was. I just didn't know...and I'm no dummy.

If you're interested in the class, you can call and ask and I'm sure they'll tell you why the price increased. Nothing wrong with that. I don't think they owe anyone a public announcement as to the details of their decision.

I do wish, though that the CCB admin would take note of Charlie's hit and run tactics and stop the spamming. That part just isn't right.

Fran

02-11-2003, 01:25 PM
Fran, I'd like to comment on your comments. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'm not taking a really strong stand on this pool school topic either way -- I see points to both sides of the discussion, although I do think people are over-analyzing this thing. CW's attitude does come across as a bit arrogant, but so does Earl, and I think he's one of the greatest players ever. It's part of their image, their schtick (sp?), their trademark. Everybody's got a gimmick.

But with regards to what Fran says about how easy it is to sell yourself short, I must agree. I'm a software systems engineer with a full-time, comfortable job. Occasionally I will contract out on the side for custom development work. Even though I've been in this business for about 20 years now (with a 5 year break to play U.S. Army) I still under-sell myself when taking on contracts. I always enter into negotiations thinking "I'll start a bit high and expect to negotiate down to what I expect to get". Without fail, and I mean ALWAYS, the client jumps in and says "Really? That's all? When can you start?". LOL, I always leave feeling like I've left money on the table! So the next time I'll adjust upwards a bit -- if I'm providing a service that the market is more than willing to pay for, then why not? It isn't so much about greed, but about being paid what you're worth.

Just my $0.02...

David

Fran Crimi
02-11-2003, 01:32 PM
I get where you're coming from and I think in many instances that's really true. But consider one thing here. Let's say there's a major company getting ready to market a new product. They spend a whole lot of money on marketing research. They hire focus group firms to gather consumers and ask them about the product, including how much they would be willing to pay for it. By the time that product goes on the market, they have a clear picture of it's worth to the customer.

These guys don't have any of that. They're out there guessing every step of the way. I don't think this instance is about them being grateful for the work. I think it's more of an issue of them adjusting the fee to where they feel both the student and themselves are getting a fair shake. It may not look like it was done very professionally, but they don't have the resources to test the market like those big companies. They have to adjust as they go along.

Fran

bluewolf
02-11-2003, 01:37 PM
If a person were serious about taking the school, it would certainly be legitimate to ask what they are getting for that $750.

blu

Fran Crimi
02-11-2003, 01:52 PM
Hi ####,

I know Cisero Murphy would have supported your idea. He was trying to do the same thing but nobody would listen.

Fran

Fred Agnir
02-11-2003, 01:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> The class was filled to capacity <hr /></blockquote>

I'll say. At the low price it was offered, didn't it fill within a day or theres abouts? With that in mind, he would've been crazy to not raise the price. Or is nobody allowed to raise prices? Tell that to the gas station.

Fred

cuechick
02-11-2003, 02:00 PM
More good points Fran! I also want to point out that the facilities at VF are not cheap either, and it is possible they have to pay for the use of the tables and room, since this takes place after the event. And the cost of the hotel is a lot, regardless of their being there for the tournament, they have to stay additional days to do the workshop.
I am sure in the previous 'school' they were giving the use of tables in a poolroom for free...

Barbara
02-11-2003, 02:21 PM
I agree with you that $750 to spend two days with the likes of Varner, Archer, and Robles is not outrageous. More like a bargain. And, this is definitely not for beginners - you should not be looking for a lot of help with your mechanics.

These guys are TOP PROS with years of experience and knowledge willing to teach you some of this stuff that, for the most part, they mostly learned on their own.

Heck! Any other Pool School isn't that much cheaper, and "Pool School in Paradise" is $2500!

Barbara

Fred Agnir
02-11-2003, 02:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr>
Heck! Any other Pool School isn't that much cheaper, and "Pool School in Paradise" is $2500!

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

http://poolschoolinparadise.com/reservations.html

eg8r
02-11-2003, 02:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I do wish, though that the CCB admin would take note of Charlie's hit and run tactics and stop the spamming. That part just isn't right.
<hr /></blockquote> AMEN. LOL My main pet peeve.

eg8r

eg8r
02-11-2003, 02:59 PM
I agree with everything you say, as I too have a s/w company on the side. The only question I have is... [ QUOTE ]
It isn't so much about greed, but about being paid what you're worth. <hr /></blockquote> I believe your worth is based on how much you are willing to do the job for...this is not always directly correlated with how much the consumer is willing to pay. If you decide that you will do the job for 10,000 then that is what it is worth to you. If the customer was willing to pay more for it, then that is a bonus, but should not be considered your new level of worth.

Is the school worth $750.00???? Don't know, and I really think that is impossible to judge since different people will attend with different agendas.

eg8r

Popcorn
02-11-2003, 03:04 PM
Doubling the price after one successful class I think is very unprofessional. It just plain looks bad. That is what I meant by , they should wait. I never said don't raise it. I would have considered adding more classes at the same or a slightly higher price, before trying to see how much I could gouge out of a few willing customers. They could accually wreck this thing before they even get started. As far as work goes, I don't even understand your post. I made a valid point and we all know people who talk like that. They don't know when they have it good and complain, till they lose their job, now they do have something to complain about.

Popcorn
02-11-2003, 03:06 PM
I think this one is at a pool room in the area also.

Barbara
02-11-2003, 03:16 PM
Oh, I stand corrected - it's $2700.

Thanks Fred.

Barbara

Fred Agnir
02-11-2003, 03:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Oh, I stand corrected - it's $2700.

Thanks Fred.

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

Sorry B., I was just piggy-backing on your post. Someone else had mentioned that the Pool School in Paradise price was in Canadian dollars. It's not. It's in USD.

Fred

bluewolf
02-11-2003, 04:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cuechick:</font><hr> More good points Fran! I also want to point out that the facilities at VF are not cheap either, and it is possible they have to pay for the use of the tables and room, since this takes place after the event. And the cost of the hotel is a lot, regardless of their being there for the tournament, they have to stay additional days to do the workshop.
I am sure in the previous 'school' they were giving the use of tables in a poolroom for free... <hr /></blockquote>

Yup, but even if it werent 3$ per hr is very cheap. Roanoke's food is very cheap conpared to dc and so are the rooms, taxis, parking at the airport. everything really.

blu

02-11-2003, 10:24 PM
Hate to sound like I'm quoting the Gordon Gecko 'greed is good' speach from "Wall Street", but this is just business. CW and the instructors are PROFESSIONAL POOL PLAYERS. They have the right to earn every honest dime from their occupation as they can. If they raised the price simply because they think they can get away with it, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! If I thought I could negotiate double my salary, I'd take advantage of it. Supply and demand, free markets, capitalism...it's a wonderful thing.

snipershot
02-11-2003, 11:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> For those of us who do not want to go or who do not have the money to go that is our concern. If someone else wants to go and is willing to spend the money, what business is that of mine?

One personal story. There was this lady who was spending big bucks for this buddist breathing method. I had heard from some people who took it and raved about it. At first I said no, she was materialistic and it was a ripoff. Then I thought again, listened to more people and forked out the money. It turned out to be one of the best experiences in my life.

So was the lady ripping us off? Probably. Does it matter? Not to me, it is what I received that matters. I think it is called supply and demand.

Perhaps this school will turn out to be someone's best expereince. Who am I to judge what is good for another or what price is too much for a mountain top experience?

blu <hr /></blockquote>

I know that Charlie is going to charge as much as the people are willing to pay for his school, I was simply saying it is not worth $750 to me for two days worth of classes.