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Fran Crimi
02-18-2003, 12:15 AM
Now that I know who Fast Larry is, I'd like to share what I know about him.


I have to say that I honestly don't know anyone who loves the game more than Larry does. He can give me the 6 and the breaks when it comes to enthusiasm for the game.

Yep. He's the real deal. I only wish I could do half the things on a pool table that he can and he's forever inventing new shots. How many of us actually "invent" shots?

The thing that always struck me about Larry every time I ran into him was his enthusiasm. I never viewed that as ego, but rather a person set on pushing himself to the limits to see what he can achieve, and when he achieves it, being proud of his accomplishment.

Yes, that little book he mentioned is real. He showed it to me once and I mentioned that I really wanted one. He was kind enough to let me have an extra copy. I'm not going to talk about it. That's for Larry to do if he wants to. I will say one thing. It's really good.

I don't know about his World Records but if he says it's so, I would believe him because I have no reason not to.

I'm sure those of you who visit with him in Valley Forge will really enjoy his show.

I think Larry's a really nice guy but I'm pissed as all hell that he never introduced me to Wonder Dog. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Fran

02-18-2003, 01:48 AM
Dear Fran, that was very sweet. Max just goes nuts over the ladies, he just loves women. Tell you what Imma gonna do, so you don't miss him this time. You tell me when you are done playing and have some free time, even if it's after the show closes, Max will give you private show, or I'll try to get him to. He is really weird, he will only do 3 shows a day, don't ask me why. If I make him do a 4th, he just stands there, looks at me, then lays down & goes to sleep. He is really lazy. I designed him, his momma was a small German Shepherd, 3rd smartest dogs are shepherds and she was a 35 time in a row champion frisbee chatcher at contests. An amazing dog. I then put together the Daddie, by producing a half bloodhound & half great dane, am I nuts or what? Nothing is sweater or more gentle than these two dogs, I cant take the chance of having the dog getting aggressive. Mess with me, I'll bite you, Max will never bite no matter what you do to him. I also wanted a dog to sleep a lot, so he would go under the table & leave me alone for 2 hrs, he could not be hyper. It all worked perfectly, I got what I designed, the only thing I did not plan on was he's l35 lbs, he's a little bigger than I wanted, especially when Jake Wonder Dog I was only 70 lbs. Wonder Dog III is 45, Bubba Wonder Dog four is l7 lbs, so I am going down in size, sorry about the Bull S*** dog, I know that was a bad joke, but it gets a laugh in bars, what can I tell you. If you want Max to do a private show, you are going to have to bring a couple of hot dogs to bribe him & wake him up. He will stand on his head for a hot dog, which is what I pay him, don't tell him he is getting the shaft out of this deal, then he will demand a T Bone, now I am getting him to work cheap. I'll also give you a couple of my tapes that will show a lot of the things & shots I claim, the tapes were put together for the sole reason to prove what I said I did, I never intended to sell them, I don't want to, I don't even advertise them, and I've sold 5000 of them. My plans are to some day soon, clean it all up & produce some really nice tapes & CD's, something I will then be proud to put my name on. Now I have great shots, and a less than professional tape put together. What will you see MAX do, is run a rack of 8 ball with his nose & paws in l2 seconds flat & I call every pocket for him in advance. He will perform actual trick shots, he can do about a third of the Paul Gerni show, but there he will do the Chatanooga choo choo railroad shot making the l-2-3-4 balls in the side pocket in rotation. He does the world class bottle shot with his nose. He answers a telephone when it rings & talks to his girlfriend.
He does 35 tricks, but I try to keep his show short, about l5-20 minutes. His best trick is he sings, reads, writes & talks, something half of the pool players in America cant do in a bar after midnight. Is this a little hard to believe, of course, but if it is not true, then how did he get into the Ripleys column, & on the premier of the show, or invited to star on the premier of the new show Pet star on animal planet, he actually went out to hollywood & played pool for 25 grand, I know a lot of pro's who have never played for that kind of loot. Is he for real, is the pope Catholic? Come see him, I am not writing a check with my mouth that big boy can't cash. A lot of the old grizzly gambler pool hall types dont like the dog act. We need to do a lot of things to bring some life & some fun back into this game. In pool, I have a audience of maybe 2 to 3 million people, in trick shots, maybe 50,000. Dog owners, 56 million, you figger it out, you do the math. The pool hall gamblers are not my market. What the Dog does, is brings families into the game & to my show, and that does nothing but help every single one of you.
Your Friend & admirer, Fast Larry Guninger & Wonder Dog, do I have to keep writing aka Grindinger or what. Can you believe that deal, it was like a lynching was going to take place, ah yes indeed, reminds me of the time I was going through Mississippi with Harry Da Horse & Jake the Snake, we were on a road trip you see.......Ah yes.....

9 Ball Girl
02-18-2003, 01:53 AM
Ok, now you guys are getting just a tad bit mushy on me! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Wendy<---a sucker for mushiness... /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

bigbro6060
02-18-2003, 02:14 AM
Fast Larry sure has made a quick impact on this forum!

the problem with the internet is that things can come accross incorrectly because there is no tone of voice, body language or anything else, so it's just the words

Larry mate, be assured that we are gonna not only make you welcome but squeeze every drop of knowledge dry from you /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

02-18-2003, 02:51 AM
Yo big bro, what you said is so true, Fran Crimi said it best, if Minnesota Fats came on the board today & said what he said in pool halls, every one would go nuts, but you listen to him in a pool hall, it was no problem. You see a person, you can read them. When you read email, you dont have a clue, how do you know I even wrote any of these, maybe it was Wonder Dog, I mean how are you going to know, if he can play pool, maybe he can type too. Gee I wish they would make these keyboards bigger for my paw.....

SPetty
02-18-2003, 03:13 PM
Hi Fran,

I'm glad you like this guy. You're obviously a better person than I am. I normally don't enter these frays, but I thought you might care what I think... (hahaha, silly me...)

It's very difficult for me to "listen" to someone's writing if I have to know them personally in order to understand them. People who actually write stuff for other people to read should really take just a tiny bit of care to try to ensure they don't come across like a jackass, don't you think?

I'm sorry I won't be able to join this lovefest immediately - it will probably take me a little more time to get over a few things this man has posted:

For me, of course, it started here when he responded to a post about my warped Predator shaft...<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Larry the Arrogant:</font><hr>02/15/03 02:41 AM
99% of warped shafts are caused by customer neglect, you leaned the cue up against the wall while playing for 2 years &amp; now wonder why it goes blop blop when you roll it over. Now you want the mfgr to replace something you ruined. Toss it in the trash, go buy a new one, this time, take proper care of it, and dont ever lean it against the wall again. <hr /></blockquote>And then there's this:<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Larry the Know-It-All:</font><hr>02/16/03 09:00 PM
Focus on this, you guys cant teach me nothing, but I can teach you guys a ton of stuff, I can show you some new neat shots, we can have some fun together, but you have to let all that other stuff ride, just let it ride, it is not worth fighting over, because very soon, I will be gone &amp; then soon forgotten.<hr /></blockquote>So this man has nothing to learn! My personal credo finds that a bit arrogant and obnoxious. Isn't there something good in learning all your life? And, although his words say he can teach us stuff, he doesnít seem to be very willing to share what he knows. Witness:<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Larry the Tease:</font><hr>02/16/03 05:25 PM
There was a little book out several years ago, I bought for $6.00, it had about 30 pages, everyone overlooked it, or never read it, and it is the most valuable piece of information I have ever had, it is now the center of my cue ball position teaching, and I tightly guard the secret.<hr /></blockquote>

Even you, Fran, are jumping on this book bandwagon with "Yes, that little book he mentioned is real. He showed it to me once and I mentioned that I really wanted one. He was kind enough to let me have an extra copy. I'm not going to talk about it. That's for Larry to do if he wants to. I will say one thing. It's really good."

From what Iíve seen on this board, we normally share information about good books and videos. A few years ago, Larry bought a book that he likes very much. You, too, like this book very much. Larry also professes to being able to teach us guys a ton of stuff. Now, instead of helping the original author of the book make a buck or two from this well-read pool playing community of ours, he (and now admittedly you) hoards this information like it's the ultimate secret to making gasoline out of water, thereby denying the original author his properly deserved recognition and reward! Just kind of rubs me the wrong way...

Anyway, I've already welcomed Larry to the board. Oh, and Larry, if you're reading this, if nothing else, please learn to use the "enter" key on your computer. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif It looks something like this:

http://www.monkeybin.com/world/photos/enter_key.jpg

Press it twice in a row every now and then. It adds white space to your writing, making it a bit easier to read. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

TomBrooklyn
02-18-2003, 03:30 PM
I think many people at the very top of any field or sport tend to be what might be construed as a little excentric or aloof as a result of being so focused on what they do to reach that level of skill that they may have underdeveloped skills in any number of other areas not directly related to their main occupation, including interpersonal relations.

Often top players may be extreemly egotistical, self-centered, or very introverted as a result of, or perhaps it is almost as a neccessity to maintain the high level of focus that makes them one of the best at what they do. Perhaps there is just a fine line between genius and insanity.

=Tom

L.S. Dennis
02-18-2003, 03:30 PM
Regarding the mystery book, rumor had it that it was 'Position Play For Hi-Runs by Johnny Holiday (an excellect book by the way) but after taking another look at it I see that it has 114 pages and not 30 as was mentioned.

So the mystery continues, I hope this gets resolved I'm beginning to curious myself now!!

Fred Agnir
02-18-2003, 03:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>And then there's this:<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Larry the Know-It-All:</font><hr>02/16/03 09:00 PM
Focus on this, you guys cant teach me nothing, but I can teach you guys a ton of stuff, I can show you some new neat shots, we can have some fun together, but you have to let all that other stuff ride, just let it ride, it is not worth fighting over, because very soon, I will be gone &amp; then soon forgotten.<hr /></blockquote><hr /></blockquote>

Well, most people here know where I stand on this issue. Anyone coming on the board with the purpose to teach the group has the wrong attitude and deserves every bad reaction. In the same vein, anyone who walks into a new pool room and starts shouting out "you can't teach me, but I can teach you" isn't going to win any respect, but sure as hell will lose some. Not because it is or isn't true, but because it shows no class and shows a bit of ass.

IMO, everyone should come to this board to participate, share, and LEARN. If you think you're done learning, then you are truly all done.

Fred &lt;~~~ guarantees he can teach Larry something new, and guarantees he can learn something new from Larry

Fred Agnir
02-18-2003, 03:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr>

Will FastLarry be the next to feel the insensitive, uncaring, heartless, unsympathetic, wrath of the CCB social grace police? Hmmmm. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

=Tom <hr /></blockquote>
You're going to pin this one on the group?

Fred

TomBrooklyn
02-18-2003, 03:36 PM
Fred, I have to blame somebody. Let me think about it more, and I'll try to pin in down further. -Tom

Fred Agnir
02-18-2003, 03:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> Fred, I have to blame somebody. Let me think about it more, and I'll try to pin in down further. -Tom <hr /></blockquote>
Put it on me, Tom. Since I wasn't in the room.

Fred &lt;~~~ likes to blame the guy who wasn't at the meeting

TomBrooklyn
02-18-2003, 03:47 PM
Fine Fred, thats settled, it's Fred's fault. Thank you.

And if anyone doesn't understand this complex psycological stuff with the top pros, I'll try to get Dr Francher here to explain it to you.

=Tom

Eric.
02-18-2003, 03:51 PM
Hows that go?

"It's like wrestling with a pig in the mud; even if you win, you still come out dirty and the pig enjoyed it."


Eric &gt;or something like that

02-18-2003, 04:08 PM
I come to these boards to learn, I don't really have a whole lot to contribute. I read a lot of posts, take what works for me and throw the rest out. If Larry leaves, I for one will continue to stay in contact with him via email. The people who don't like Larry here aren't required to read or reply to his posts... if he continues to post here.

If anybody has any questions for Larry I'm sure he would be glad to respond via email. He has been generous with me in answering my questions... and he has never been rude, condescending, or abrasive in the process. Nor has he ever tried to sell me anything, in fact quite the opposite. Some people just don't "click..." and everybody isn't going to love Larry or his "style", and I certainly won't hold that against anyone. I for one enjoy Larry and his stories, and appreciate his attempts to help people play better pool. The guy knows his stuff.

02-18-2003, 04:31 PM
To Mr. Dennis, I am sorry I brought up that book, I have already apologized once, this is now twice. That was a stupid thing to do, If I am not going to share it, and I am not, then I should have kept my mouth shut about it. I also apologize for saying there is nothing you guys can teach me, that was stupid &amp; insensitive of me, even though it is true, I should not have rubbed your nose in it. People were slandering me &amp; calling me a liar, you drug me down to your level. I reacted in anger. Two wrongs, never make a right. The latest charge is I am a jackass, finally you guys begin to stay nice things about me, yes, I pleed guilty to that one, I have been a jackass, I will try &amp; clean up my act a little, but A** kissing is just not my style. I give it to you straight, raw &amp; honest, to the point, I dont have time to sugar coat it, &amp; I dont care if it comes into conflict with your competitive &amp; business agenda. That's your problem, not my problem. I have all of the Johnny Holiday books, I like a lot of what he teaches. Byrne does not, different strokes for different folks. Every time Byrne &amp; I would get into a argument over a teaching method, he would say, oh there you go again with that Johnny Holiday crap, and I would say, I cant help it, the man is right. He knows. Our main argument was on how to draw the ball, my method is 100% opposite of what BOB Teaches, and how can I win any argument with any one against a famous hall of famer &amp; the greatest writer of our time, I am nuts to even take him on, but I do. If Jesus Christ showed up on the board &amp; said the best way to draw was to hit real low &amp; level with a long follow through, with a stiff wrist, I would argue with him. Sorry it is not any of the Holiday books, but I recommend all of them, especially if you still play l4.l..You accuse me of pushing the book now, the guy is dead, the book is out of print, I dont sell it, I give a copy of the book to every student on their 7th lesson, &amp; we work the book together &amp; it's positional playing secrets. The lesson takes ll/2 hrs and it is not the the beginner, but any average player can learn it. Give it up, you will never get it, &amp; if you do, I'll tell you. Fast Larry

Barbara
02-18-2003, 04:35 PM
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

Loved that little bit about the "Enter" key. Larry's posts are almost impossible to read. He needs to use paragraphs.

Barbara~~~hoping she never gets on SPetty's nerves... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif!

bluewolf
02-18-2003, 04:44 PM
Well Larry, I do not agree with what you say about people here not being able to teach you anything. Perhaps you do not mean it the way I am interpreting it. I believe that I can learn something from anyone, even a child.

Sometimes it is a technique, sometimes a different way of looking at things, sometimes it is with the freshness and enthusiasm of a beginning student, an enthusiasm and excitement that might have grown dim in my mind.

But perhaps this is not what you meant. And even if it was, then that is okay too, because you do not have to justify yourself to me. You are what you are. and I yam what I yam. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

blu

02-18-2003, 04:45 PM
Dear Eric, thank you sir for calling me a pig, finally you guys are getting nice to me, this is great. You are a very smart &amp; perceptive person, every thing you see, is not always what it appears to be. To the dude with the warped preditor shaft, you dont go to the board to ask what is wrong, you go direct to the mfgr, send it to them to see it, then they determine if they replace it. It appeared to me you were just looking for a way to get a free shaft &amp; how to do it. Most of my comments were directed to the general players &amp; not against you personally. it appears I was dead wrong about you, and if I was, then I am truely sorry sir. The problem with the players is they buy stuff, cues, gloves &amp; expect them to last a lifetime, they abuse them, show them no care or respect, they wear out, &amp; instead of trashing them &amp; buying a new one, they go to the mfgr with the cock &amp; bull story of how they did nothing wrong &amp; want a new toy. This does not exist in Golf, only in pool. I dont sell preditor shafts, I only use them a little, &amp; I respect the company &amp; their product, how about letting me off the hook on this one, looks like I blew it OK. Fast Larry

bluewolf
02-18-2003, 04:50 PM
Did I miss something? It was S Petty with the warped preditor shaft. But going over all of that is redundant. I do not see the point of rehashing every 'faux paus'. Words were spoken, feelings hurt, apologies said. IMO enuff said.

blu

Eric.
02-18-2003, 05:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> Dear Eric, thank you sir for calling me a pig, finally you guys are getting nice to me, this is great. You are a very smart &amp; perceptive person, every thing you see, is not always what it appears to be. <hr /></blockquote>


Larry, Larry, Larry.

Why must you take words/phrases out of context?

First of all, let me clarify what I was referring to. The cliche refers to not getting into a worthless battle meaning why do something that is lose/lose? My opinion is that some of these arguments fall into that catagory. I'm sorry if you took it personally.

Food for thought. You come across as a very brash, outspoken person that isn't too worried if people can't handle your opinions(whether right or wrong), why so thin skinned when others give the same at you? With all due respect, it's like the schoolyard bully beating up people, then crying to the teacher about the new kid that just kicked his @ss. C'mon Larry.



Eric

02-18-2003, 05:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> One must remember SPetty, that the people at the top of any field tend to be a little excentric. They are so focused on what it is they do that sometimes they suffer lapses in interpersonal relations. There is a fine line between genius and insanity. This is what you can expect from the top people in billiards.

It is rare to find a top player in billiards or any sport who isn't an egotistical maniac or a mega-introverted workaholic with poor social graces. This is also why the CCB has run virtually every top player who has ever visited here off the board.

Will FastLarry be the next to feel the insensitive, uncaring, heartless, unsympathetic, wrath of the CCB social grace police? Will no one continue to understand these people except me? Hmmmm. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

=Tom <hr /></blockquote>

no, tom...you will. in the last couple of days, you have written some of the most arrogant, condescending stuff i've ever seen. "hark! be i the only one can seeth??" gimmie a break pal. you've even taken to using some kind of archaic high-falootin syntax that's just weird. school-marm preachy.

"one must remember..." whasup wit dat?

i'm sorry but at least larry, as much of him as i can read, is funny. and he has a neat dog.

dan...please don't p.m. me asking my help on attacks against other posters any more. didn't like it then, sure wouldn't now.

02-18-2003, 05:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> Yo big bro, what you said is so true, Fran Crimi said it best, if Minnesota Fats came on the board today &amp; said what he said in pool halls, every one would go nuts, but you listen to him in a pool hall, it was no problem. You see a person, you can read them. When you read email, you dont have a clue, how do you know I even wrote any of these, maybe it was Wonder Dog, I mean how are you going to know, if he can play pool, maybe he can type too. Gee I wish they would make these keyboards bigger for my paw..... <hr /></blockquote>

i knew it. i just knew it. wonder is doin it all and larry is just a big blow-up doll.

now, it's all beginning to make sense.

dan...huge wonder dog fan.

02-18-2003, 06:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> You accuse me of pushing the book now, the guy is dead, the book is out of print, I dont sell it, I give a copy of the book to every student on their 7th lesson, &amp; we work the book together &amp; it's positional playing secrets. The lesson takes ll/2 hrs and it is not the the beginner, but any average player can learn it. Give it up, you will never get it, &amp; if you do, I'll tell you. Fast Larry <hr /></blockquote>

Well, if those 7 lessons are not free of charge, then you ARE pushing the book here for your own gain. You see Larry, a good portion of the people who frequent the CCB have been around long enough to see this sort of thing before. Someone comes along touting their mastery of the game only to proclaim that there's some magical secret that the person is willing to share....for a price. Most of the people here know that the Holy Grail of pool does not exist. There are only basic fundamentals and refinement of the basics.
You were probably right when you said "you guys can't teach me nothing" if you were refering to cue sports. After all, it all boils down to being able to accurately hit a ball with a stick.
Stick around though, we may be able to teach you a thing or two about hawking your wares to the enlightened pool players of the 21st century.

I'll give you one thing though, you can sure tell a story. Keep 'em coming!

L.S. Dennis
02-18-2003, 07:00 PM
Hey Larry,
First of all I want to thank you for all the info on the pink cue papers. I did contact 3M and they were most cooperative in helping me locate some.

Rgarding the book, if you don't want to share it with this forum that's fine it's up to you. Probably it would have been better had Fran not stirred up the tease in her comments on it but that's fine too.

I would like to ask you one thing though, and that is not to lump me in with everyone else who's comments were derogatory toward you. If you'll note I was never involved in any of those posts! That being said I enjoy a little color in this forum and you certainly provide that as well a wealth of information (book or no book!)

Take Care Dennis

02-18-2003, 07:19 PM
Dear Dragon, Your doctor, your lawyer, your hooker, all are pro's, you tell a pro from an amateur, the pro get's paid in advance for their advice &amp; experience. They provide no services free. None of the above gives it free. I teach, I charge a very fair fee, I do not apologize for that, and you somehow find something wrong with that. None of the other teachers on this board teach free, they all charge, have a family to support, bills to pay. I do not apologize for that. Look, if you want free lessons, go into any pool hall in America, ask who the top stick is, buy him a beer, he will impart free advice to you all night long, as long as the beers keep rolling, but you are still paying, and what he will give you, you are paying a fair price for. I never offered lessons, I never listed a price. 5 will get you 8 you teach &amp; you are scared I may snake a customer away from you, is that it, if not, then accept this, any true pro teacher in any sport, charges for his lessons. I am not charging for my advice on this form, I am giving it to the players for free, but I am not giving it all out, why should I give valuable inside things I have to a competitor who does not know about them. Let him find them the same way I did, none of these guys ever gave me anything. I am like all the other BCA teachers, no, I teach different. They teach you to be a ball skidder, I teach you to be a ball roller, there are differences, &amp; I refuse to be drawn into them. A lot of people are asking for my answers, a lot of people are telling me they like them, sorry you dont, in life, there is no way to make every one happy, no matter how hard you try. If you are now a student of a instructor on the board, &amp; he is doing a good job &amp; helping you, there is no way I can steal you from him. If you are not happy, you will seek &amp; find other help. Try &amp; ask me something intelligent &amp; constructive of me the next time around &amp; see what happens. Fast Larry

bluewolf
02-18-2003, 07:24 PM
What is a ball skidder?
What is a ball roller?

blu

02-18-2003, 08:18 PM
If I was close to Atlanta, I'd pay for lessons from Larry just to hear the whole "ball skidder" vs. "ball roller" thing. I think Kinister refers to the power of a rolling cue ball in one or more of his tapes, but doesn't delve into it (though he sure delves into alot of other stuff). Larry, I'd like to hear more about this, but I understand if you don't want to broadcast all your teaching secrets.

Scott Lee
02-19-2003, 12:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr>None of the other teachers on this board teach free, they all charge, have a family to support, bills to pay.

Fast Larry <hr /></blockquote>

Once again, Larry, you seem to want to put words in other people's mouth! You may speak for yourself, but you DON'T speak for me, Fran, or many other highly qualified instructors. I know that I have, on many occasions, taught people for FREE...that's right, FREE...not because I didn't want their money, but because they showed a DESIRE TO LEARN. That's what's more important to a REAL teacher...not
the $$$! There are several people right here on this board who have gotten either free lessons, or free advice. I offer my instruction techniques to all who come here, free of any charge. Those that choose to seek me out for more personal one-on-one instruction are free to do that, whether they choose to pay me or not! Yes, I do make my living playing and teaching pool (like yourself), but I choose not to try and get people to believe it is some kind of secret, that they have to buy from me to find out!

In several of your recent posts, you keep alluding to "competitors", which of course must be referring to me, as I'm the only poster here who has essentially the same job as you. I just choose to go about it in a different way. For the past several years I have shown you the utmost respect EVERY time we have crossed paths, yet you continue to harbor some resentment. I carry no grudge, nor do I feel threatened, or even competitive with you. There is room for many, many people like us...and plenty of work for all! You freely acknowledge that you are a "know-it-all"...and make no apologies about it! That's fine...but don't put someone else down, because they don't think that is particularly intelligent behaviour. The only thing I called you on, in any post here, was the bit about using your legs to break with. If you had said what you came back later with (either way works okay), I would never had said a word about it. But you came on and DEFIANTLY stated that not using your legs was not only wrong, but stupid! That is absolutely incorrect, let alone the wrong approach, especially here. That's the only reason I even said anything. You are admittedly a braggart, and proud of it...so be it. I choose to be humble, and know that I will be a student of this magnificent game as long as I live. The main difference between us, Larry, as I see it, is that you feel a very strong need to "be the BEST"...or at least to be perceived as the best, to be able to feel good about yourself! I, on the other hand, care very little about "being better than you (read: anybody)", but care more about sharing all that I DO know about pool, with as many people around the world as I am able to, in my lifetime.

I have never seen you teach, but I respect you enough to say that you may be a fine teacher. I KNOW you know a lot about pool...that is never in question. It's how you come off to others. If you come across to your students like you come across here on the CCB...well, all I can say is... Good Luck to you Sir!

See you in Valley Forge!

Scott Lee

Fred Agnir
02-19-2003, 07:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> What is a ball skidder?
What is a ball roller?

blu <hr /></blockquote>
Generally, if you hit the ball with natural follow, the ball rolls immediately (no sliding). The physics boys will put the contact point on the cueball at about 70% of its height as the natural roll contact point. Hit the cueball there, and it will roll immediately.

Anything struck below that will cause the cueball to skid (slide) before it goes into natural roll.

I'm a big fan of rolling the cueball for natural shots.

Fred

Fred Agnir
02-19-2003, 07:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> I also apologize for saying there is nothing you guys can teach me, that was stupid &amp; insensitive of me, even though it is true, I should not have rubbed your nose in it. <hr /></blockquote>
That's an apology?

Larry, if you expect everyone on this board to respect you, why on earth would you disrespect all of us by such a false statement? That is, you're dead wrong Larry. Wrong wrong wrong. I guarantee that someone (or a lot of someones) on this board has something to teach you about pool that you never new before, never thought about before, never understood, or are simply wrong about. Why you wouldn't be open to that given your passion for the game is really ironic.

It ain't true Larry. You've got a lot to learn.

Fred &lt;~~~ willing to teach Larry

bluewolf
02-19-2003, 08:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> What is a ball skidder?
What is a ball roller?

blu <hr /></blockquote>
Generally, if you hit the ball with natural follow, the ball rolls immediately (no sliding). The physics boys will put the contact point on the cueball at about 70% of its height as the natural roll contact point. Hit the cueball there, and it will roll immediately.

Anything struck below that will cause the cueball to skid (slide) before it goes into natural roll.

I'm a big fan of rolling the cueball for natural shots.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Sorry if I am a little slow here. I want to make sure I have this. Top = ball rolling ? centerball and bottom = ball skidding? Then how does that fit in with what Larry was saying (sorry Larry if I mess this up) that hitting the cue straight through or a little up on the follow is ball rolling and having the cue point at the cloth after follow is ball skidding?

blu

eg8r
02-19-2003, 08:08 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I also apologize for saying there is nothing you guys can teach me, that was stupid &amp; insensitive of me, even though it is true, I should not have rubbed your nose in it. <hr /></blockquote> /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif This is great stuff. I sure hope it is searchable in the future. I am positive someone will have a need to find it again.

I have just one question about this...Do you think Einstein would have quit learning had his time here on earth been lengthened? Surely all the arrogance in the world would not blind you with the idea that you KNOW EVERYTHING.

[ QUOTE ]
People were slandering me &amp; calling me a liar, you drug me down to your level. I reacted in anger. Two wrongs, never make a right. <hr /></blockquote> You are right, they never make a right. I believe people were also referring to your inability to write a sentence that fully explained the truth. I honestly do not believe an educated human with a college degree will write as poorly as you do (this is minus all the athletes that were awarded their degrees for playing sports). I am not slandering you or calling you a liar about graduating from college, instead I am offering a praise of sorts...I am positive that you know how your words are being read and the presumptions being made by the masses after reading your words. In doing this, you are able to cry foul and treat yourself as the victim. This seems similar to what happened on ebay a while ago...A guy was selling a very expensive cue stick. In the writing, he choose to manipulate the bidders into thinking they were buying the expensive cue stick and instead he was just selling them a picture. His defense was that he said the word picture, so it was their fault for thinking they would get a cue stick...Much the same happened here with your writing, for example...In the same sentence seperated only with a comma you tell us you graduated from a BCA course then immeadiately following the comma you state you are now a master instructor. Sure you never said you were a "BCA master instructor", but the idea was implied. Now some are saying they know you, and you run your ideas together like this all the time...well shame on us, but we don't know you. What we do know now is that you have poor writing skills. This wonderful information makes reading your posts easier now.

Just a note for Larry, you will notice that I have started a new paragraph. I would offer you to go to the store and buy a very special book on MLA or some other writing convention. This makes the text easier to read and affords you a simple way to transition into your next statement.

After all is said an done, I am a fanatic for great stories. I do enjoy reading about your stories and some of the characters of this industry, both present and past. Do you have any great stories about Ronnie Allen, he seems to have a colorful past.

Thanks,

eg8r

Fred Agnir
02-19-2003, 08:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> Sorry if I am a little slow here. I want to make sure I have this. Top = ball rolling ? centerball and bottom = ball skidding? Then how does that fit in with what Larry was saying (sorry Larry if I mess this up) that hitting the cue straight through or a little up on the follow is ball rolling and having the cue point at the cloth after follow is ball skidding?

blu <hr /></blockquote>
Means to an end. Larry's means is to stroke the tip upward or level at the least. The physics says that you don't need to stroke the tip upward or level to get immediate natural follow.

His description of "tip down skids" might be okay for the non-micro crowd, but I assure you that you can naturally roll the cueball with a stroke that ends up tip down if you hit roughly 70% follow.

The "BCA method" of SET PAUSE FINISH has you hitting the cueball at perpendicular. The follow through has the tip going down to the cloth. But the contact is done well before the tip ever starts to move downwards.

Don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with Larry's viewpoint on why following through "tip down" can be a negative. His means of getting natural follow and focusing/observing the tip follow-through is perfectly legitimate. I am saying, however, that if you subscribe and follow the SET PAUSE FINISH technique, then 'tip down' won't be detrimental compared to others who don't subscribe and follow the SET PAUSE FINISH technique. Problem of course is that for the vast majority, the SET PAUSE FINISH technique needs a committment to ingrain it into the muscle memory.


Fred

bluewolf
02-19-2003, 08:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> One must remember SPetty, that the people at the top of any field tend to be a little excentric. They are so focused on what it is they do that sometimes they suffer lapses in interpersonal relations. There is a fine line between genius and insanity. This is what you can expect from the top people in billiards.

It is rare to find a top player in billiards or any sport who isn't an egotistical maniac or a mega-introverted workaholic with poor social graces. This is also why the CCB has run virtually every top player who has ever visited here off the board.

Will FastLarry be the next to feel the insensitive, uncaring, heartless, unsympathetic, wrath of the CCB social grace police? Will no one continue to understand these people except me? Hmmmm. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

=Tom <hr /></blockquote>

There is one thing about all of that.Each person deserves respect as a living being period. Again....

If someone does not treat me (or anybody) with respect, excuses like they are eccentric,old,from a foreign country, were abused as a child, are famous (and therefore is ok to be rude) etc, imo do not hold water. Nor do I think that a person should get respect just on their accomplishments...I just do not believe that any one person is more important than anyone else.

If a respected pool player acts abusive it is inexcusable...
If a person who has picked up their first pool stick acts abusive, it is still inexcusable. Being famous or not famous in my mind has nothing to do with being a human being.

blu

02-19-2003, 09:26 AM
boys, boys, you really need to accept everyone as they are and drink from the cup of human kindness. when the fellow says you are all stupid, he may not mean that in a bad way. probably just being constructive. when he says he went to harvard and graduated perhaps he means he went to harvard illinois and graduated from day care. that's perfectly fair, isn't it? in a clintonesque kinda way? "i did not have sex with that woman, the cigar did it!"

you simply must learn to be more forgiving...like me.


dan...the hole has to be really, really deep and then there's 2 different kinds of quicklimes and....

cheesemouse
02-19-2003, 09:40 AM
HAAAAAAAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAAAAAAAAA!!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
You got me Dan......

02-19-2003, 10:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> HAAAAAAAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAAAAAAAAA!!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
You got me Dan...... <hr /></blockquote>

thank you cheezer. i have a very small but discriminating audience and it's amazing how well you type with your sleeves tied together behind your back like that.

dan

02-19-2003, 11:57 AM
I think you missed my point. I don't think there's anything wrong with getting paid for a service. I do think there's something wrong with conning people into paying you for a service by enticing them with a book they can't get their hands on until 7 lessons later.

You don't have to resort to seedy tactics in order to get people here to take lessons from you. All you have to do is share a little knowledge and if people like what they see, you'll have people inquiring about lessons in no time.

For the record, I'm not an instructor. The most I've ever done was share my knowledge when people asked questions. I've never taken lessons from an instructor either. When/if I do take lessons it will be from someone I respect, not for their ability to play or their showmanship, but for their willingness and ability to communicate the information that I need.

dave
02-19-2003, 12:27 PM
A "ball roller" is a person who relies on natural roll and variations of stroke speed to achieve position. A "ball skidder" is a person that uses a consistent stroke speed in combination with tip placement to "stun" the cueball into position. It's related to the old argument of whether it is better to use english/sidespin or stay on the vertical axis. I have my own preference, but whatever works.

02-19-2003, 06:42 PM
To: Mr Griffith, yes I have a great love of dark woods, and coco bolla, nice ebony are my favorites. The Schuler cue company made me a lovely sign, Fast Larry &amp; Wonder Dog, it was a gift to say thanks, I about flipped out, I was stunned, is was out of Coco bolla with deep white letters reset. I am so proud of it, I display it at ever show I do.
To: Barbara who cant read my posts. I type nice letters on word, I use spell check to clean them up, and I use paragraphs. I can't figure out this system, every time I try to use spell check, it only shows me half of the letter, then I lose it all &amp; have to start over. I cant figure out how to put in paragraphs, or display the entire letter so I can clean it up/ I want to, and one day will learn how to, why not just fast forward any post I make so it does not aggravate you &amp; go on to the next guy. I really did not flunk out of the 3rd grade, I actually got to the 4th, no kidding.
To: Scott Lee...I have already stated that a player can do a thing well using two entirely different methods. Give me that, then that also means you can teach him one way, I can teach my guy a totally different way, &amp; both will produce the same thing. I refuse to get into any arguments on the form over this. You state your way, let me state mine, let the player choose which one he wants or likes. The truth is, we are both right sir. Players dont want to see us fight or argue, all they want is a productive form, where they can come in to learn. You have my word of honor, that is the way it is going to be from me from this point on. It was my mistake to argue with you on your post, that was my mistake, I was wrong, please accept my humble apology, and I am sincere on this, or God strike me dead at this keyboard now. I highly respect you as a teacher, because a lot of people respect you, and say that, which means you have been doing a lot of good things for a very long time &amp; have helped a lot of players. God bless you, and all that are like you in this game. The BCA has never had more than 100 certified teachers, well that was true when I dropped out just a few years ago. No I did not get fired, I fired them. If they have more, post the number, but what ever it is, the number is a discrace. Why is it a discrace, because the number is too low, it is embarrasing. I am now teaching a teaching golf pro how to play pool better, and when he heard that, he frankly could not believe it. If you add up the independent teachers like me, not some hack in a bar who thinks he can teach, the real teachers, add them to the BCA number, you want to cry. Why are we so rare, why are there so few of us? I try to keep my rates low, I feel some of these bigger names charge double or triple what I do because of their egos. I can get what the get, but the guy takes one lesson. You cant teach any sport in one lesson. With my rates, he books 3 lessons, and I work 3 times harder &amp; longer. I am probably stupid, doing what I am doing. What the problem is too many people want to go into this, but cant figure out how to make a decent living at just this, so they give it up. The young kids only want to take lessons from the new hot sticks they see on TV. I go to pool rooms &amp; they want to charge me for using their room to give lessons, they want me to kick back to them 25% of the lesson fee. No problem, I tack that on to my regular rate, and now I teach 50% less students there than I would have, soon the program fails, nobody's making any money &amp; I go away. The room owner should be paying me to teach there, not me paying him. That is the main problem. The more lessons a person gives, the more drills he gets the students working on, the more table time the house gets. Most just wont see the big picture. No teachers in Tennis or Golf put up with this. Every tennis center &amp; every golf course has it's own teaching pro in residence. The establishment understands it is a part of the overhead. They pay these people a nice salary so they wont go away. Add up the lessons &amp; what they get selling their stuff in the pro shop, most make 6 figures a year. Great teachers like you &amp; Fran should be making over 6 figures teaching, before you write me back &amp; tell me you are both doing that, let me tell you I am not, and I dont know any body who is. I am sure you are Scott are, but few are, OK&gt; Let me bottom line this one for you, pool has done nothing but screw the pro players &amp; teachers for as long as I can remember. Things dont get better, they just get worse. A couple of years ago I was teaching a lot at a big time pool hall, this Mexican PBT tourning pro who plays as good as God, uses a open hand bridge, comes in to the owner &amp; says fire that bum teaching, he is a nobody, no one's ever heard of him before, I have a name, he doesn't. Just give me a one bedroom place to stay at &amp; feed me, all I want is all the teaching fees I earn. Can you believe this, the guy was starving &amp; living in his car. No he did not get the job. That guy was not a teacher, he is a pool bum who only teaches when he busted in a gambling game. Pool is full of guys like this. The main reason I never entered a pro tourney or tried to be a 9 ball pro, is for the last l5 years, the llth place player made ll grand a year &amp; paid all of his expenses, that's chump change, I leave over ll grand a year at bars for tips. I am making over 6 figures selling &amp; I am going to quit &amp; now make ll grand if I am lucky....I dont teach full time, I make more money doing shows. I get $500 to $l000 for l hrs work. For every shot I make, I get paid $33, that shot takes 2 minutes, I have to teach for a hour to make $33. To make a grand teaching at what I charge, I would have to put in 35 hours of teaching, to make the same I make for l hr of doing a exhibition. You do the Arithmetic. I only teach because I love doing it. I dont advertise for new students any where, my card isn't in any pool hall anywhere, not even in the joint a mile away from where I live. I run no ads. I dont want any of your students, or any ones. I seek no business off of this form &amp; board. I have more students right now than I want or can handle, I take on a few now &amp; then, they find me, ask me. When I get a student, he becomes a long term student. What pool hall is going to turn the pro shop over to me. If I sell a cue there, they want a piece of the action. The BCA should have done a education campaign years ago to change this mentality. allow me to give you an example, Tennis, which is a real &amp; true sport recognized by the media, &amp; pool is no longer a sport, dont come after me on this, this was printed in this magazine or P&amp;B I cant remember which one, the sports writers were surveyed &amp; that was their opinion, not mine, OK, Tennis woke up &amp; realized their numbers were falling, people were dropping out of Tennis. They lost about 25% of their players. Pool has lost numbers far greater than Tennis. So what did tennis do about it, They funded a program, where they got together &amp; trained &amp; placed l0,000 new Tennis teachers, can you believe this. And we have less than 200 I would call real teachers. Why, because any good teacher working any place, keeps players in the game, keeps them interested, and keeps them coming back. They grow the sport &amp; that game. I teach because I love it, I like helping the players. I stated I charge a fair price for my services, but you do to, so does Fran. I just stated I am going to be real fair &amp; give these players a ton of free information, but dump out for free all of my inside secrets for nothing, I am not that stupid. I will soon give it all up on CD's, Vhs tapes, and a book. They will just have to wait, or come see me &amp; enroll in my school, or go see you &amp; have you teach them my secrets, you will guess what they are, &amp; they will never know. Then you guys come back on me &amp; tell me I am greedy &amp; you guys teach free &amp; look at this bad boy who does not. I can give you the name of a cripple, got ran over by a car, I am now teaching free, never charged him a dime. You can call the guy up if you want to. Ask Steve Ducoff, he knows about me teaching for free &amp; doing free shows to send the troops off to Kuwait. I sent the kids to war with a smile on their face, and now they are in harms way, pray for every one of these brave patriots. He knows I have recently done free shows &amp; lessons at several inner city YMCA'S &amp; BOY'S &amp; GIRLS CLUBS, all free, all just for the kids, who cant afford what I sell, I give it free, the people on the board can, some of what I have, they have to pay for. Now that is driving some nuts, oh well. You and I had bad blood &amp; about you not playing in the first BCA NorthAmerican at the Hopkins in 97, lets just let that one ride, Ok. I was badly out of line on that one, right in principle, wrong in application. I had just been betrayed by two major stars &amp; was very upset at that time. You &amp; I had bad blood over the BCA teaching program, &amp; I dropped out over that. My position was the BCA never sent me a dime, never one referral, all I did was buy a worthless piece of paper for $l000, which got me nothing. I had all those students before I bought the paper. Then you start telling me I am going to start doing this &amp; that, start giving up free time here doing this &amp; that, I went excuse me, Until the BCA puts money in my pocket, they have no right to order me around to do nothing. They are making money off of me, I have not made a dime off of them. Only a couple of insiders are making money running the qualifying schools &amp; keeping all of the leads, the rest of us are getting nothing but the shaft. Once more, the mentality here, is upside down. That is why I left the program, there were other reasons, but that was the main one. Any one can go in there &amp; buy their diploma, it's now the same in most of these phony baloney Korean karate schools, black belts dont mean anything anymore. When I came up, it took you over 5 years to earn one, you had to prove you were worthy of one. Not any more, any rum dum who cant punch through a wet bag can hang out, go though some motions, &amp; buy the belt. Do you realize nobody flunks the BCA teachers school, all graduate, all that pay the money graduate. The only way not to walk out of there with your diploma would be to get struck dead by a bolt of lightning through the window. If none flunk, what does that tell you? I said all of this before when I dropped out &amp; the BCA went ape S***, I was degrading &amp; demeaning all of these wonderful teachers, stepped in what. I told it like it is &amp; they wanted to shut my mouth up fast. I tell people, if you want to know the difference between a real &amp; true pool teaching pro &amp; one who just thinks he is, A piece of worthless paper is not the test. The real first class pro, teaches with a cam corder, the amateur teacher, does not. I offer a lesson in VHS, or DV, digital, or both, 2 camera angles. During the lesson he can see how he looks &amp; stands by seeing tape play back on a screen. I have a software system from the golf world where I can let him also view his basics through a lap top &amp; draw lines to check his eyes &amp; aim &amp; how his cue follows through. I am sure you do the same, dont you?
I dont know of a single Tennis or Golf teaching pro on the planet that does not do the same exact thing I do. Now how many pool teaching pros do we now have actually have doing that, my best guess is under 25, hell it could be under l0, under 5, who knows. Nobody should graduate from that school unless he walks in with a camera &amp; proves he uses it on every lesson after that. They all say they do, they borrow a camera from Uncle Gomer, then never use it again. I walked in my BCA school with my camera. I was the only one who did. Too many people buy a bar with 2 crapo bar boxes, the guy plays to an apa 3 or 4 level, He cant run 3 friggin balls, knows nothing, goes to a school, buys his diploma by standing in one place &amp; not dropping dead of a heart attack for 8 hrs, and now begins to teach &amp; he is now a expert because he has a piece of paper that says he is. You want to know why nobody flunks, because it is not in the financial interest of the qualifying school to do so. They keep coming back to buy higher levels. So when people start tossing that certificate in my face and acting like I am dog do do because I dont have it, I say I did, &amp; it never brought me one new student, never made me a dime. Who needs it, before you say I am really talking like Fatty now, you bet your A** I am, when it came to money, Fatty never booked a loser. This was a loser so I got rid of it. When I sent the certificate back saying I dont want it any more, not one student left me. I know dozens of bar box room owners who cant run 3 balls who have done exactly this, Went in &amp; bought the paper because they were too cheap to share the lesson fees with a guy like you or me, they wanted it all. it's the player who get's screwed in this deal. My point is this is not working, it is broke badly, and what needs to be done, is to sit back like Tennis did, &amp; formulate a entirely new approach, where we can find a way to have hundreds of Scott Lee's &amp; Fast Larry's running around, maybe thousands, that is my only point, so dont bring down on my head the wrath of the BCA on me again, been there, done that. I dont want them beating on me again because I have the balls to say out loud this is wrong &amp; this is how you fix it. Let anyone speak out the truth, that they don't want revealed, they turn loose a hord of stooges who do their bidding for added favors to run down &amp; destroy the creditability of that person, they have destroyed many people I know of with this ploy. The purpose of it is to scare the S*** of everyone else so they too will keep their mouths shut &amp; their opinions to them selves. You can go out &amp; begin to beat a dog in a village, soon a dozen people will begin to beat the dog also, they never ask why, or what the dog did, the dog never got a trial, it's called herd mentality, or monkey see, monkey do. I was working &amp; doing shows at the Hopkins in Philly a couple of years ago, You kept walking by watching me work. Finally it was slow, I asked you into the booth &amp; tried to give you some stuff, tried to be friendly, you got your back up &amp; was insulted, do you remember, I put my arm around you, &amp; said, chill, you are too defensive, all I want to do here is be your friend, maybe that worked &amp; I did not know it. I was playing 3 cushion a month later on the Verhoven at Chris's in Chicago, you stopped by my table &amp; we had a nice pleasant chat, that was good. Perhaps it is all my fault for stirring you up on the board, sorry, my apologies, I repeat, I only want to be your friend, I want to have good relations with every good teaching pro. I dont feel I compete with any of you guys, none of us have even touched the real market, and again, dont fear any new guy coming into your turf, there is room for hundreds more of them, just like you. If you want to be friends, then we are now, all of that old crap, is just that, crap, it's ancient history. I want you to know one thing, every time your name has came up, &amp; to your credit it comes up a lot, I have said nothing but good things about you, you cant find anyone who can say I have not. If you dont want to be my friend &amp; want to stay open in order to run me down, all I can say is that's OK, I under stand, and surely it is my fault, not your fault, you act &amp; say what you do. No matter what you say or do to me, I will not reverse my position, Scott Lee is a good guy &amp; a fine teacher. You earned that one sir &amp; I will fight any man who say's that is not true. Scott this letter would have never been written if you had not come after me again for the 4th time. In Politics, there is a saying they ignore half way through every election, Dont throw mud on the other guy, if you do, you get mud thrown back on you. You quit thorwing mud on me, I'll quit throwing mud on you, it's a very simple deal. Regards, Fast Larry Guninger...

snipershot
02-20-2003, 04:48 PM
SPetty, I think Larry has crossed the line between confident and arrogant, especially when he said:

"Focus on this, you guys can't teach me nothing, but I can teach you a ton of stuff," this to me is arrogance at it's highest level.

I know he only posts here to promote his pro school but I think Charlie Williams could teach him a thing or two on the pool table, specifically, how to get his a$$ kicked.

snipershot
02-20-2003, 04:52 PM
Please, could use the F****** Enter key, I saw someone else earlier tell you to use it, but that didn't seem to work. When you make long responses it makes it alot easier to read, if you need help locating the enter key on the keyboard ask for directions.

02-20-2003, 05:36 PM
Fast Larry must have got that nickname from someone who tried to get a word in. Can this guy talk or what?!?!

P.S.--Next time don't drop out of High School--Three words: RUN-ON SENTENCES

02-20-2003, 06:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote A.L.F:</font><hr>Next time don't drop out of High School--Three words: RUN-ON SENTENCES <hr /></blockquote>

um......psssst, 2 words. (1 hyphenated)

dan...(well, i found someone i haddn't yet pissed-off so...)

02-20-2003, 09:15 PM
To: Fred... No one in golf, putts, or teaches to hit down &amp; skid the ball. No one in billiards teaches this. Only the BCA pool teachers do in pool. You are told to teach this, so you go out like the little stooge &amp; repeat this baloney. Fred, did it ever occur to you this is wrong, do you ever question any thing, or do you just take orders &amp; follow directions. Those in Billiards &amp; golf are ball rollers, not ball skidders, go play those two games &amp; find out. Fred you want me to apologize, sure, when you actually teach me something I dont know I will, how's that. I'll even kiss your ass in public.
Dear addict, Did you read my post yesterday that said I live my life by the Aristole method, and I explained how I know nothing. You read what you want, bend things out of text. I no longer will respond to you again, you are a waste of my time.
Dragon: No student goes to the 4th grade until they learn &amp; pass the 3rd grade. The student gets the book free &amp; how to use it, when they are ready for it, not until. If a person with a good game comes in &amp; wants it now, he can have it. You dont study for a black belt in a dojo, until you first master your yellow purple &amp; brown belts. Very advanced cue ball position techniques are not for the beginner, he must first learn to control his cue, and develop some stroke &amp; power. He must first learn &amp; earn a fine draw &amp; follow, stop &amp; stun, and dozens of other things. My best shot, what I do best is hit Le Masse. I dont teach it to beginners, and only on my table &amp; on my cloth, never on a rooms equipment. I have a method of teaching it that is a hugh break through, Hoppe would have killed to have this. Now tell everyone I am ripping people off because I wont teach the Masse until the student puts in ll lessons, hell it could be 2, 20, or with some, never. Back to Fred,you keep teaching Jerry &amp; I will keep teaching Mosconi &amp; Hoppe. I teach what these guys actually did, not what Jerry thinks. Fred, allow me to quote Hoppe from l94l, this is from the greatest cueist of all time, The masse is the most difficult of all shots. It never should be attempted until you have become proficient at all other styles of play with a sound understanding and performance of fundementals. Especially the stroke. Beginners &amp; and Masse shots do not mix, in short, the Masse is the last phase of billiards to learn. End of quote from Hoppe. Hoppe understood, you have to teach in stages, just like they do in public school, you dont walk in and want to be taugth calcalus when you are in the 3rd grade, unless I guess you are Shamos, you have to learn simple add &amp; subtract first. We know too much, it is so easy to get ahead or begin teaching something the student does not really understand &amp; is too shy to tell you so. You act like I am ripping them off &amp; draging things out. Fred, let me bottom line this one for you also, I have had enough of your crap, I don't have time to be dragged through your Spanish Inquisition, because no matter how well I answer, and If I answer every question perfectly, you will still sentence me to be burned at the stake, why, because I am a heritic &amp; I have blasphemed your holy scripture. Take your worthless piece of paper you call a teaching certificate &amp; quit throwing it in my face, all it is good for is to wipe your A** with. No more games with you, no more traps, I dont have time to play Fred, this does not help anyone, and I have better things to do.
sniper, your reaction when you hear something you dont like is lets kick his ass? Now that is what I call an intelligent response, did you just get out on parole &amp; learn to type in prison. what have you learned from all of this, nothing. There is a message there. If we can just put a friggin end to all of the friggin calling each other names &amp; just let all that crap ride, maybe somebody can learn something here, maybe. You throw mud on me, I throw mud back on you, this is not very smart...

Here's to those throwing mud on me who have never held a trophy above their heads in victory, never felt a gold medal slide around their neck, never invented a shot, never set a world record, never have played pool on prime time national TV, never ever dared to dream the impossible, then live to see it happen. I have someone who wants to speak to you, hear his quote:
It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, who's face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end of the trimph of high achievement and who at the worst if he fails, at least fails while doing greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither defeat or victory. Teddy Roosevelt end of quote
Fast Larry

bluewolf
02-21-2003, 01:21 AM
Larry,

When you refer to someone named 'addict' who is that?

As far as what you are saying here, I do not agree with all of it but I will listen. You and others here know a lot more about pool than I do so I do try to listen to everyone. That does not mean I will take everything you or anybody else says 'hook, line and sinker'. I will listen.

BTW, Preacher man sent me this email and says that Larry lives close to him and that they have talked on a number of ocassions.

Laura

Fred Agnir
02-21-2003, 07:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> To: Fred... No one in golf, putts, or teaches to hit down &amp; skid the ball. No one in billiards teaches this. Only the BCA pool teachers do in pool. You are told to teach this, so you go out like the little stooge &amp; repeat this baloney. Fred, did it ever occur to you this is wrong, do you ever question any thing, or do you just take orders &amp; follow directions. <hr /></blockquote>


At what point do you see me saying that teaching to skid the ball is correct?


[ QUOTE ]
Those in Billiards &amp; golf are ball rollers, not ball skidders, go play those two games &amp; find out. <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe you need reading lessons since you've got no problem hitting the keys. If you go back you arrrogant pompous ass you'll clearly see that I am in favor of rolling.

[ QUOTE ]
Fred you want me to apologize, sure, when you actually teach me something I dont know I will, how's that. <hr /></blockquote>That's bull, Larry. You can't read, so why should I believe that you would apologize when I teach you something?

And furthermore (like you'll ever get this point), so far, you haven't said one freakin' thing that's new on this board. When are you going to teach us something we haven't heard before?

I'll risk it, so here it goes:

1.) higher speed isn't the cause for a ball to bank shorter
2.) the true playing area of a pool table is never twice as long as its width.

Fred &lt;~~~ isn't waiting to get his ass kissed.

Fred Agnir
02-21-2003, 07:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> I don't have time to be dragged through your Spanish Inquisition, because no matter how well I answer, and If I answer every question perfectly, you will still sentence me to be burned at the stake, why, because I am a heritic &amp; I have blasphemed your holy scripture.<hr /></blockquote>
Learn to read. I actually might be one of a few people in the universe that believes in most everything you teach. But, instead, your arrogance doesn't allow you to see that I might have been on your side.

[ QUOTE ]
Take your worthless piece of paper you call a teaching certificate &amp; quit throwing it in my face, all it is good for is to wipe your A** with. No more games with you, no more traps, I dont have time to play Fred, this does not help anyone, and I have better things to do. <hr /></blockquote>
What are you talking about? Did you confuse me with someone else? What piece of paper are you talking about?

Fred

Scott Lee
02-21-2003, 01:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
I'll risk it, so here it goes:

1.) higher speed isn't the cause for a ball to bank shorter

Fred &lt;~~~ isn't waiting to get his ass kissed. <hr /></blockquote>

Fred...That's a great topic for discussion! I have always been under the impression that the ball banks shorter with more speed, because the OB skids into the rail, rather than rolling. What is your take on why it banks shorter (this is assuming all factors, such as no sidespin, or backspin are having an effect on the shot)?

Scott

Kato
02-21-2003, 01:14 PM
I too was always under the impression that the hard hit shortened the bank up.

Kato~~~does not know the physics of why things happen he just hopes that they do.

socrates
02-21-2003, 01:20 PM
Probabally be many points of view here - looking forward to Fred's explanation as to why the ball banks shorter.

One theory, that conceptually makes sense to me, is that the speed causes the ball to go deeper into the cushion thus compressing the cushion more, which shortens the bank. In this scenario I am assuming that english was not used on the shot and the only variable is speed.

Looking forward to other possible explanations.

Fred Agnir
02-21-2003, 01:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
I'll risk it, so here it goes:

1.) higher speed isn't the cause for a ball to bank shorter

Fred &lt;~~~ isn't waiting to get his ass kissed. <hr /></blockquote>

Fred...That's a great topic for discussion! I have always been under the impression that the ball banks shorter with more speed, because the OB skids into the rail, rather than rolling. What is your take on why it banks shorter (this is assuming all factors, such as no sidespin, or backspin are having an effect on the shot)?

Scott <hr /></blockquote>
That's exactly right, as far as the theory and tests go. So, yes, higher speed certainly makes the bank shorter because the ball is still skidding and not rolling. The importance of this is evident when the object ball is near (nearly on) the cushion. Without any distance for the object ball to pick up natural roll, no amount of speed will make the ball bank shorter.

Here's the standard proof setup:


http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

START(
%AS2Z4%BQ6X3%ER4Y4%HP9W2%PM1R2%Ue6E1%VT3[0%W`8D6%XS9[1%[O7U7
%\M7S0%]R6Z9%^C0D6
)END

Using a cuestick, line up four ball frozen, having the lead ball (the one-ball) very near the cushion. Shoot the shot with any speed, and it will hit the same spot as long as there's no table roll. The shot will bank shorter than the theoretical angle in/angle out idea.

All cushions should bank shorter than the theoretical mirror system if there's no spin on the object ball. It's the spring return idea, where some of the spring return force is directed perpendicular to the contact point on the cushion, which makes the overal return angle shorter.

Fred

Kato
02-21-2003, 01:40 PM
Thanks Steve, that's what I wanted to say but if I did I thought it would sound stupid, coming from you it sounds much better.

Kato

teen1216
02-21-2003, 08:08 PM
Fast Larry, if I recall correctly, I saw in another thread that you lived in Duluth. Well, I live in Duluth as well, and I was wondering if you give lessons out of your house or at Barney's or another pool hall? In the past month I've become very interested in the game and I would be interested in finding a good teacher.

bluewolf
02-21-2003, 09:54 PM
Is that near Atlanta?

Laura

teen1216
02-21-2003, 10:15 PM
Duluth? Yes, it is about 40 minutes from Atlanta, maybe a tad less. It's a suburb.

bluewolf
02-22-2003, 06:49 AM
If you want to contact him about instruction, I would send to his email because he is offline for a couple of days.

Laura

bigbro6060
02-22-2003, 08:17 AM
Scott Lee, you rock too mate

i love the fact that we have so much expertise on this board. I think it's cool that there are different opinions, even amongst the experts. Shows there's more than one way to skin a cat

Scott, Fran, Fast Larry and everyone else, your contributions are so valued and appreciated

bluewolf
02-22-2003, 08:35 AM
YUP. CCB is a great place to find a great instructor too. There are a number of them regarding individual instructors and at least two who have their own pool schools. It is kool to have that kind of selection and opportunity to improve one's game. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura

Gayle in MD
02-22-2003, 05:59 PM
Hey Dan, I'm not in this debate, but that is one helluva funny post.
Gayle in Md, LMAO /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

02-22-2003, 07:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Hey Dan, I'm not in this debate, but that is one helluva funny post.
Gayle in Md, LMAO /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

thanks a lot, gayle. i appreciate it.

dan