View Full Version : Ten Ball Challenge- the players

02-18-2003, 11:47 AM
All the big hitters are here. Looks like you have the Fillipino mafia (Efren, Busta, L Andam, W Kiamco, R Gallego,Jose P, Ronnie A, etc), you have your Young Guns- Ginky, C Deuel, E Stalev, A Pagulayan, Big Guns-Earl, Ralf, Varner, Jim Rempe...as well as a ton of other Champions- Larry Nevel, Jarrod Clowery, Teddy Garrahan, Pete Fusco, Dee Adkins, Danny Hewitt, so on, so forth. This is shaping up to be a serious field. I havn't seen the full list of players but my guess, it's gonna look like a list of "Champions R Us".

Eric >will be at The Marina

Steve Lipsky
02-18-2003, 12:50 PM
I'm so jealous I'm not there, Eric. Is it a nice setup?

Is there a lot of in-casino promotion? Posters and such? Seating for how many?

I must admit I'm not crazy about these rules. The push is OK, but to have to make a shot after one is a little bit bizarre. Does anyone know whose idea this was?


02-18-2003, 01:04 PM
What's going on Steve?

I'm getting my info second hand, my buddy is there, now.
I'll have to give you the updates tonight when I go.

As far as the weird push rule-I spoke to Gerry Butler and he said that he wants more offense. He came up with the rule as a hybrid old rollout 9 ball-new 7 ball push rule to cut down on the amount of the safeties. I'm curious what will be said about it at the players meeting today.

Eric >hope to run into ya

Steve Lipsky
02-18-2003, 01:27 PM
Hi Eric. I'm praying this rule change doesn't get adopted at more tournaments. Here's a layout where I see it as a real problem:



Let's say you leave your opponent this, and he pushes to A. Think about the psychological aspects involved here. You can't go for this bank shot, because you are in a position of "control". To lose it by going for this low-percentage shot would weigh heavily on your mind as you take your practice strokes. (The same applies if he pushes to B and tempts you with the thin cut.)

But if you give the push back, your opponent has a free shot at winning a game he had no chance in before the push. Psychologically, there is no pressure on him. And great players, when there is no pressure, make shots they would never dream of taking in other situations.

I see a ton of games being won in previously-unwinnable situations, and I don't look at that as a good thing.


- Steve

02-18-2003, 01:47 PM
Actually Steve, if I'm reading your post right, you missed part of the rule(sorry if I'm wrong /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ) With the No miss Pushout, you can only rollout if you have no fouls. Also, the person rolling out, if given the shot back, HAS to make a ball(other than the Qball /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif ) or give BIH to the opponent. In your example, I'm giving the shot back to you. If you make the bank/cut, you run out. If you miss the bank, I get BIH -even I can get out from there!


Steve Lipsky
02-18-2003, 01:51 PM
Hey Eric, I understand the no-miss rule. I was saying that, yes, I'd give the shot back too - but the player now shooting (my opponent) has a free chance to make a great shot. If he misses, so what? He was going to lose from that position anyway. Your opponent has gone from having about a 5% chance to win the game, to about a 40-50% chance - and there's not a thing you can do about it.

Eric, I also just PM'd you.

- Steve

L.S. Dennis
02-18-2003, 01:53 PM
This is the first I've heard of this format. Probably a better solution would be just to use Grady's rules which seem to make a lot more sense!

02-18-2003, 02:54 PM
I've never heard of 10 ball. Is it 9 ball with 10 balls or what?

L.S. Dennis
02-18-2003, 03:09 PM
Yes, the balls still pocketed in rotation with one extra ball the ten! That one extra balll however adds a new dynamic to the game though.

02-18-2003, 03:15 PM
Is it racked like a small triangle?

02-18-2003, 03:18 PM
I see you're point, Steve. It does seem to take the opponent from a low run out % to a potential 50%er which on that note definately makes for some interesting decisions!

Just to beat your example to death /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif , unless the rollout resulted in a shot that lies on a perfect banking line/point, I'm giving it back. If it's a near dead bank, I'll take the shot. But nothing less than a near dead shot.

I hope the rule doesn't become a sore spot, we'll see...

Eric >looks good on paper

Steve Lipsky
02-18-2003, 03:19 PM
Yep, small triangle. 10 ball in the middle, 1 in front. Everything else is exactly the same (except for this tournament, as you've read in this thread).

Some people like 10 ball better because it's got a smaller emphasis on the break. It's much more difficult to make balls on a 10 ball break. And with the extra ball out there, it's more difficult to run-out, leaving many games to be decided by outmoving your opponent.

- Steve

02-18-2003, 03:24 PM
Hafta agree with ya L.S. Especially since in 10 ball, you can't depend on breaking a wing ball into the corner, or pocketing the 10 on the break, gap or no gap.


02-18-2003, 07:21 PM
The short answer is that the rule is designed to prevent you from leaving your opponent that position. You have identified the reason: he still has a good chance to win the game.

The rule is supposed to discourage saftey play and promote more offense, including the attempt to make the tough shots that you describe. No longer can you push just to get an easier hit. You must push to a shot. The push becomes a liability because you pass a makeable shot over to your opponent giving him control.

Your example has you being penalized even though you made a safety that would normally be a very good shot. They don't want players making safety shots. They want offense. That's why you don't get rewarded for that shot and that's why you don't do it in the first place.

You don't see a "ton of games" using this strategy because it is flawed in the first place. That's the whole point of the rule and you're just not going to play safe.

Now, if the rule discourages safety play, how do you get to that position? You botch the previous shot by missing the nine. No reason you should win the game after that monkey shot.

02-19-2003, 12:17 AM
I confess, I'm guilty. I'll take the heat. All I ask of you and any pool player to keep an open mind and play and understand the rules fully before making your final decision. These rules have been tested in local mini tournaments in the Louisville area and have been played the last couple years at the Derby City Classic in mini 9-ball $1000 added events so they are not completely new. I don't want to go into discussions about these rules at this time. I'm very proud of Ed Hagan (who works with Diamond as our tournament coordinator) for believing in these rules and using his influence to use these rules at the Atlantic City 10 ball event. I'm anxiously awaiting the opinions of the pros. I know I won't please everyone, but I also know we need an offensive game that adds excitement. I love safe play and there's plenty of it in bank pool and my favorite one pocket. The rules we have now reward a great safe more that a great shot. These new rules may not be perfect, we'll see. I plan on seeking the advice of the CCBers and hope something positive will come. Greg/Diamond

Steve Lipsky
02-19-2003, 12:43 AM
Ken and Greg,

You both bring up great points. I'm still not sure how I feel about such a lack of emphasis on safety play, but I am definitely willing to give it a shot - so to speak.

When some of the NY pros get back, I will ask them how they felt about it.

But I will definitely keep an open mind. Thanks guys!

- Steve

02-19-2003, 06:24 AM

Well lets see first of all pool is not a spectator sport? I have been all over the world watching pool and there has never been more than 350 spectators at one time except in Asia. I consider myself a spectator and there is nothing more boring than watching pro players who are supposed to be able to make the shots playing safety shots because they can’t bank or kick. Safety play is nothing but a subterfuge for pro players who can’t make the shot.

I think shot making is the essence of the game of pool and safety play is for incompetent players who can’t kick, bank or cut. I am watching this 10-Ball and the rules are fantastic.
My favorite game is one pocket and the safety game makes it great for the player but terrible for the spectators.

Ed Hagan, Jerry Butler, and Gene Hooker are doing a great job with everything buried under two feet of snow. The rules are just great! Great pro players should be making great shots not great safeties. I will never cheer for safeties


02-23-2003, 09:52 AM
Good action at The Marina.

I figured I'd update the info for those that might be interested...

Saturday had the field of 90 down to about 20. The names were the usual list of suspects: Earl, Efren, Busta, Rempe, Archer, as well as some others that have been making waves like Ronnie Alcano, Pat McNally, and Max Eberle. Seems like due to the 20+ inches of snow, it made travel a little rough. Of the 200 some odd that signed up for the tourney, only 90 actually got in. Either way, even with the smaller field, It was far from watered down. Hell, just looking at the chart, it seemed like most of the big guns still made it. Did the $20000 First Prize have something to do with it? Anyway, the matches:

Efren vs. Ronnie Alcano

What a match! Nothing like watching a Fillipino master at work (Efren was impressive too /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif) Seriously,
Ronnie is for real. He had Efren down from the get-go and never let up. The match started out 4-0 Ronnie. then 4-1. Then 5-1. It went like that until Efren makes a charge and gets it to something like 7-5. Then Ronnie powers back to 9-5. In the next rack, on a poorly broken rack with 5 balls clustered around the foot spot, they go back and forth. Eventually, Efren outmoves Ronnie to get him on 3 fouls! 9-6. Next rack, Efren wins. 9-8. On the following rack, Efren makes several great shots including a difficult cut of the 5 into the side pocket, stunning the CB into the head rail, missing the 8, into the side rail to a perfect 2 ft shot on the 7, with the 7,8,10 remaining-an easy run out from here. He MISSES the 7 ball. Missed the easy cut after all those beautiful shots to get in line! Curtains for Efren, Ronnie runs 3 for the W. Rack after rack, Ronnie would get out consistantly, with no mistakes. Add to that the uncharactoristic misses and missed position shots by Reyes, was all she wrote. This guy has a stroke, grip and break like Busta's and he can crush the rack!

Pat McNally vs. Josh Brothers

Pat Mac-wow! This might have been Pat's best match of the week. He drills Josh 10-0. Josh never had a chance. Pat was getting out from everywhere and barely missed a shot or a kick. I think Josh may have only had5-6 offensive shots the whole match.

Earl vs. Busta

By far, the most dominating exhibition of 10 ball on Saturday was by Busta. Holy cow. Holy @#$*! Earl didn't shoot bad, he just didn't have a chance to get going. Busta was playing F-ing awesome. His break was working unbelievably well, he wasn't missing anything, and played text book position throughout the match. It was something like 4-0 Busta, before Earl had a chance to win one. From there, it was all Busta. He runs off a 3 pack in text book fashion. Busta was making a least a ball or 2 almost every break where most players were probably averaging 1 ball every other break, or so. Like Earl was saying, "Nobody is driving the 1 ball into the TOP corner pocket like he is." By now, it's 8-1 befroe Busta misses an easy shot into the side pocket. Earl runs out. From here on, they trade racks until 10-3 Busta. A little later, while I was looking at the tourney chart, Earl comes over. We happen to talk and even he said "The way he's(Francisco) playing, nobodys gonna beat him. He was making everything- even the long shots." [Earl would make a decent pushout to a long cut and Busta nailed it everytime] Earl did play well, as usual, it's just that Bustamante was having a great day.

As a side note:

I can't remember seeing so many players sporting some fresh "high and tight" haircuts. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif It seemed like a bunch of the players were forming a Bible study group. Jose Parica, Ginky, and a bunch of others were all cleaned up.


Voodoo Daddy
02-23-2003, 10:10 AM
I didnt wanna post what ERIC just did...cause he was there and his memory is much better than mine...thanks for the report bro...

02-23-2003, 10:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Voodoo Daddy:</font><hr> I didnt wanna post what ERIC just did...cause he was there and his memory is much better than mine...thanks for the report bro... <hr /></blockquote>

My memory good?! I gotta tie a second string on my finger to remind me what the first one was for! /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Eric &gt;Mr. Al Symer