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9 Ball Girl
02-18-2003, 11:35 PM
I've been asked to run an 8 ball tourney any which way I want for the locals at a certain pool hall (Platinum Billiards to be exact). This has probably been asked before and I can't remember what the answers are so forgive me for any redundancy. I'm thinking about $15-$20 entry fee, double elimation, Races to 5 on the Winner's side and 4 on the Loser's. The Loser will pay for the table time. That bit the poolhall wants. This will not be Last Pocket 8 Ball. Instead, it'll be ball in pocket. In other words, the OB can go 100 rails but as long as it goes into the called pocket, it counts.

How would you handicap players that you've never even seen play before?

What should the handicap be? Balls or games on the wire?

Fouls ala 9 Ball (except for the 3 foul loss)?

If I don't do BIH, then they MUST hit their OB and a rail. If they don't then should it be BIH anywhere or BIH in the kitchen? (Some of these "players" probably have never heard of BIH and wouldn't even know when BIH comes into play).

Thanks for any feedback. Oh yeah, it'll probably start off based on a 16 player field. I've already gotten about 10 people that want to play. The room wants to start this in at least 2 weeks so again suggestions will be greatly appreciated!

Predator314
02-19-2003, 08:00 AM
We play our 8-ball tourney's by what the guys call "International Rules". This really means the rules that govern play in the international 8-ball tourney the Moose Lodge holds every year. These rules consist of using BIH on all cue ball fouls (behind the line if a foul on the break). Open table after the break. 8-ball is neutral when the table is open. We do a race to 3 for time. If there are some not so great players, a race to 3 or best 2 of 3 would probably be best. Races to 5 can take a while.

I'm against not playing ball in hand. There has to be some consequence for making a bad lick. I've been screwed in tournaments a few times playing the bar rules. Players will just knock the cue ball down the table leaving you no shot, but they do it without even hitting a ball.

Ralph S.
02-19-2003, 08:17 AM
9Ball Girl, I would suggest going with race to 3 in both brackets or race to 2 in losers. Race to 5 in 8 ball can be very long. Also, see if you can possibly get the room owner to go for a flat rate for table time. An example would be
$15 entry fee with $5 green fee totaling $20 for tourney entry. One thing I have also noticed with 8ball tourneys is it usually goes smooth if you use a standardized set of rules like Valley or BCA. Virtually all tourney players know these rules already and they usually leave little in the way of arguements. Hope this helps.
Ralph S.

Eric.
02-19-2003, 08:35 AM
As far as handicapping an unknown player, well I guess that will always be a work in progress. I think the only way to do it is to have someone watch every one of his/her games and reevaluate after each game until they are "known".


Handicapping is harder than doing the same in 9 ball. I think using the break(if 8 on the break is a win), games on the wire, and BIH vs in the kitchen for the stronger player might be a start. The breaks would be the weakest spot and the games on the wire the strongest.

Personally, I like having the BIH rule because it tends to keep people *honest* /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif


Eric

02-19-2003, 08:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph S.:</font><hr> 9Ball Girl, I would suggest going with race to 3 in both brackets or race to 2 in losers. Race to 5 in 8 ball can be very long. Also, see if you can possibly get the room owner to go for a flat rate for table time. An example would be
$15 entry fee with $5 green fee totaling $20 for tourney entry. One thing I have also noticed with 8ball tourneys is it usually goes smooth if you use a standardized set of rules like Valley or BCA. Virtually all tourney players know these rules already and they usually leave little in the way of arguements. Hope this helps.
Ralph S. <hr /></blockquote>

I will have to agree with you on this. I prefer double elimination, 2 out of 3 in the winners bracket, and single game on the losers side mostly for time constraints. I would also go with BCA rules to keep the disputes to a minimum. From what I have experienced, this seems to work quite well. As far as the entry fee, I would have to say it depends on the level of the players that will be participating. Good luck with it!

Ralph, you mentioned Valley or BCA, excuse my ignorance, but what is valley?

Karatemom
02-19-2003, 08:45 AM
I also agree with using BCA rules, and also with charging a flat rate with a green fee. That eliminates the hassle of pumping quarters and figuring out who owes what.

As for figuring handicaps on new players. What we do out here is start them off at a middle handicap, about a 6. Watch their progress, matches won and lost, and adjust from there. You can always move them up or down later on in the tourney if need be. They may not like it, but you have to be fair to all the players.

Heide

Ralph S.
02-19-2003, 08:45 AM
Valley is short for Valley National Eightball Association or VNEA is what most might know it by.
Ralph S.

9 Ball Girl
02-19-2003, 09:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Predator314:</font><hr> Players will just knock the cue ball down the table leaving you no shot, but they do it without even hitting a ball. <hr /></blockquote>

I've experienced the same thing and it drives me nuts. I'm sure that people who do this would think twice when BIH is concerned. I think I'm going to go with BIH and leaning towards BCA rules.

9 Ball Girl
02-19-2003, 09:49 AM
I do agree with the shorter races because 8 ball can be quite long depending on the players. Probably races to 4 in the Winners side and races to 2 or 3 in the Losers. I've got to ponder this with the person who I will be assisting running this thing, Naz. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

9 Ball Girl
02-19-2003, 10:05 AM
That sounds good. I'm thinking of BCA rules and the rules we went by at the Corner Billiards League.

1. Lag winner breaks (although I might just go with a coin toss to simplify things)

2. 8 Ball on the break is a win

3. Table is still open after the break regardless of how many balls drop.

4. The table is no longer open after the first called shot is pocketed. At this point, the handicapped player will remove their amount of balls that need to be removed (that is if I go by using balls instead of games on the wire)

5. The handicapped player MUST remove their balls immediately after the first called shot is pocketed. If they forget, then they must remain on the table. Courtesy to remind the handicapped player is optional.

6. BIH when you do not make contact with your OB, with a rail, and when you scratch (CB goes in a pocket or off the table).

7. BIH in the kitchen if the CB scratches after the break.

8. Loss of game when the 8 ball and CB drop in after the break? (Not sure if people would like that one though)

9. 8 Ball is neutral. You can sink your ball off the 8, combinate it i.e. 7 to the 8 to the 5.

10. The 8 ball doesn't have to go in clean to win the game. If you miss the pocket, it is not a loss of game, however, the 8 ball or another OB must hit a rail after making contact with the 8.

11. While your opponent is shooting, you MUST remain seated. Sharking methods will result in a loss of game. You must call either me or Naz over to settle any conflicts. I don't care how severe that is but some people have to learn the hard way. Sharking methods will have to be explained I guess?

9 Ball Girl
02-19-2003, 10:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Karatemom:</font><hr> I also agree with using BCA rules, and also with charging a flat rate with a green fee. That eliminates the hassle of pumping quarters and figuring out who owes what.

As for figuring handicaps on new players. What we do out here is start them off at a middle handicap, about a 6. Watch their progress, matches won and lost, and adjust from there. You can always move them up or down later on in the tourney if need be. They may not like it, but you have to be fair to all the players.

Heide <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Heide. Good idea at starting everyone at the 6. I don't think I'll play in the first couple maybe just so that I can go around to settle anything and watch the skill levels. As far as pumping quarters, the matches will all be played on 9 footers tournament regulated no ball return tables. Whew! That was a mouthful.

I'll have to talk to the house and ask about a flat green fee. That's actually a better idea I think.

WaltVA
02-19-2003, 10:12 AM
9BG - I would agree with Ralph S. that race to 5 is going to run too long. We started out with a 16-player DE tournament with APA handicap races. Since most were S/L 5's with a few 4's and 6's, most races were 4-4,sometimes 5-4 or 5-5; we were sometimes running 7 hrs. or more. We finally had to cut it to a flat race to 2; this gave us about a 5 hr. tournament with a full board.

Would second the recommendation for using standard rules (BCA, APA, NVEA, whatever is best known in your area.) A short player's meeting can cover the basics for bar players, and the rules book gives you something to back up decisions. BIH anywhere isn't that hard to get used to, IMO.

If you can get the ph to accept a flat greens fee, it will save a lot of headaches, too.

Good luck!

Walt in VA

nAz
02-19-2003, 10:20 AM
Hmm good points all thanks for the advice
thank you wendy for posting it.

I think i may just go with a 9 ball tourney instead, flat rate green fees is something ill have to wrok out with the House.
i want to pay out to 5-6 places since this is mostly for the local ball bangers. well i have 2-3 weeks to get it together wish me luck

9 Ball Girl
02-19-2003, 10:23 AM
A 9 Ball Tourney sounds good but if these are ball bangers, playing 9 ball might take too long. At least with 8 ball they don't have to sink 'em in any order and they already know the idea behind 8 ball, you know? I thought 8 ball would be nice because like you said, the locals can play it. We have 9 ball tourneys all over the place and I don't think 9 ball caters to your regular "ball bangers". JMO

Wally_in_Cincy
02-19-2003, 10:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr>

....5. The handicapped player MUST remove their balls immediately after the first called shot is pocketed....<hr /></blockquote>

Spotting balls in 8-ball? Sometimes this can actually be a disadvantage, if your players are 5 or 6 level or above.

If they are lesser skilled than that then it might work out OK.

Games on the wire would be better IMHO

nAz
02-19-2003, 10:48 AM
Yeah Wally, spotting ball is 8B can be tough i'd rather give games, but then i'd have to make the races longer and that can take a long time with some of these yahoos. and if loser has to pay time oh boy its gonna cost them @9 an hour.

Predator314
02-19-2003, 10:51 AM
I've never played in a handicapped tourney before, but it would seem to me that handicapping a player by removing their balls from the table is actually helping the opponent. Especially if you are playing on bar tables.

I used to do silly bets with people saying that hey. I'll play you a game of 8-ball and take 5 of your balls off the table. They think, "Wow, I just have to make one ball and the 8 to win" and jump all over it. What they don't realize is that the less balls they have on the table while I'm shooting, the better my opportunity for a run out or to keep them from making their ball(s). In regular matches, nothing pleases me more than to see my opponent run down to one or two balls and then let me shoot. I will win the game 99% of the time. I should win the game 100% of the time in that case. If I don't have a good opportunity for a run out, I will play for a good safe where I have a great opportunity to get ball in hand. Once I get ball in hand, I will not go for the run out until I have all my balls in the clear. If one of my balls is tied up, I will play a two way shot where I clear out a ball and then sew the opponent up. This strategy really comes from watching some good one-pocket players. I have a friend that is really really good and he adapted this style from playing one pocket. I just copied him. My winning percentage has gone way up since adapting this style of 8-ball play.

Anyway, the bottom line is that handicapping a player by removing his/her balls seems to me like it would be helping the better player. I would think giving them a game or two would be a better way to do it. Of course, this could get pretty difficult for the better player if it is just a race to 3 or best 2/3. Again, I've never played in a handicapped tourney (or watched one). All the tournies I play in are heads up. This is just food for thought.

9 Ball Girl
02-19-2003, 10:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr>

....5. The handicapped player MUST remove their balls immediately after the first called shot is pocketed....<hr /></blockquote>

Spotting balls in 8-ball? Sometimes this can actually be a disadvantage, if your players are 5 or 6 level or above.

If they are lesser skilled than that then it might work out OK.

Games on the wire would be better IMHO <hr /></blockquote>Actually, spotting balls worked really well when I played in a league at Corner Billiards in NY. I was an 8 so when I played a 5, they had to take 3 balls off. But they had to do it smartly. When I played a 9, I had to take 1 ball off which to me didn't matter anyways.

I do see your point though and am beginning to think that games on the wire would probably be the way to go. Less hassle.

Eric.
02-19-2003, 10:58 AM
Sounds pretty good, Wendy.

The only rules that, IMO, might be a disadvantage is the spotting/removal of balls. In 8 ball, removing balls can put you at a distinct DISadvantage. With less of your balls on the table, not only does it make the run out somewhat easier for your opponent, it gives him more opportunities to hook you. Especially with BIH, it lets the better player hokk you, then take BIH to "open" his balls up some(or run out)for a better run out, then hook you again-you get the picture... Also, the person getting the spot may not know which are the "better" balls to remove i.e. clusters are good if you're not shooting.

Just my two pennies.

Eric

nAz
02-19-2003, 11:02 AM
Ok if i go with 9B or 8B can someone translate the rules to Spanish and Chinees for me? multi racial tourney you know oh and i think ill need them in Hebrew too

Eric.
02-19-2003, 11:20 AM
What Naz, this is something new to you? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Stretch
02-19-2003, 11:21 AM
Hi 9bg. Looks like your off to the races. Everyone here had some great input. Smart to play 8 ball. That's what everyone knows so you'll get better participation. BCA rules of course. I'm affraid you'll just have to edgimicate the unannitiated. Those rules you posted sound good. You might like to run off a few copys and post them at the club for all to see. It never takes long to get with the program. When those bar players learn that it's "ok" to play safe and get a hand ball anywhere, they love it. So shop around if that's an option. It's always nice to be able to pay out 100% of the entry.

Deffinately bargain for green fees instead of table time, at the least! To me, i think an establishment would just settle for say 5 bucks of a 20 entry, or 2 of a 10 since they're doing buisnes on beverages, video lottery, food, etc.

I also think you'll get more players if the entry's only 10 bucks. Lot's of people just love to play for 10 bucks if they know they're guaranteed two matches so they can write it off as table time and leason learned. Any more than 10 bucks and you'll scare off quite a few. Or maybe we're a lot cheaper up here, i don't know. lol St

Alfie
02-19-2003, 11:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> it'll probably start off based on a 16 player field <hr /></blockquote>How many tables? How big are the tables?

nAz
02-19-2003, 01:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> it'll probably start off based on a 16 player field <hr /></blockquote>How many tables? How big are the tables? <hr /></blockquote>

Dude it will be played on 12 Bruns. Gold crown 4 simonis 860 cloth (no ball return) and another 8 french made Cosmos w/ball return.
enough tables to do a race to 5 winner 4 loser for 8ball. the place has a total of 38 tables including 4 snooker and one 3c table