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griffith_d
02-20-2003, 11:53 AM
Someone at my tournament the other night, said that Moori went out of business. I told him he was wrong,....any truth?

Griff

Rich R.
02-20-2003, 12:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote griffith_d:</font><hr> Someone at my tournament the other night, said that Moori went out of business. I told him he was wrong,....any truth?

Griff <hr /></blockquote>
How do you go out of business, when you are selling tips for pool cues at $15 to $20 each, and people are buying them like crazy?
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gifI can't wait to read the details on this story, if it is true. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

L.S. Dennis
02-20-2003, 12:43 PM
I don't know about out of business, but with the number of layered tips on the market these day they certainly have some competition these days. Come to think about it I haven't seen one around for sale in a while!

02-20-2003, 12:51 PM
Don't know about his story being true or not, but I agree that there is certainly a lot of quality competition in the layered tip market. I personally think Moori's are overpriced and really no better than a Talisman, Hercules, or Instroke layered tip. Moori's go for $25 while Talisman and Hercules go for less than $10 -- I don't know how they can stay in business at all.

David

Cueless Joey
02-20-2003, 01:00 PM
Mooris go for around $18 now.
Moori is still the Cadillac imo. They are consistent.
The other multi-layered tips are crapshoot imo.
You find very good ones and bad ones.

Predator
02-20-2003, 01:50 PM
Moori

Popcorn
02-20-2003, 03:16 PM
I believe bought direct, they are about $3.00 a tip. They are offered on ebay for around $12.50 and you can from what it seem, get all you want. There is not doubt Moori has been prostituted for a long time, with people gouging the prices here in the US. They themselves probably make the least on the tips. That is usually the case with all manufacturing though.

SpiderMan
02-20-2003, 04:37 PM
If you ever get a chance to examine these tips side-by-side under a microscope, you will see big differences in quality, both raw materials and construction. Moori beats the snot out of Talisman/Hercules in quality and consistency of materials and workmanship.

BTW, of all the layered tips on the market, the "Instroke" is the most perfect copy of the Moori I have seen. It is an amazing likeness, even under 50X magnification. The only visible difference is the ink marking, and once installed no one could look at it and tell they had a substitute. I wonder how many installers increase profits by charging for a Moori and using an Instroke? If you don't trust your tip guy, be sure to look at the tip before he puts it on.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> Don't know about his story being true or not, but I agree that there is certainly a lot of quality competition in the layered tip market. I personally think Moori's are overpriced and really no better than a Talisman, Hercules, or Instroke layered tip. Moori's go for $25 while Talisman and Hercules go for less than $10 -- I don't know how they can stay in business at all.

David <hr /></blockquote>

Tom_In_Cincy
02-20-2003, 04:46 PM
Spiderman
How did you measure quality and construction?

We are talking about Pig skin, aren't we?
Are there better grades of pigs? and how are they measured?

Construction process.. layers. glue.. thickness consistancy.. are these what you viewed under the microscope?

Is the construction process or the quality of the pig skin more important.. or are they equal?

Just curious..

Never played with a Moori very long.. it was like playing with a very hard plastic tip. Too much tink and not enough thud.. the feedback of the hit was, IMO, terrible. Way too much of a distraction.

02-20-2003, 05:52 PM
Tom in Cincy, some think the best is from the neck of a vietnam water buffalo. There are all kinds of pigs, take me as a example, no lets dont go there no more. Wonder Dog played a pig in Hollywood last month for 25 grand, He saw the pig in the parking lot, he is a true hunting dog, went yo baby, breakfast is served, prey, went after him, what a rumble, wish I had filmed it. The pig lady about had a stroke. The pig was one hell of a bowler, could not play pool. Some of these tip people are not as big as you think, I had a world champion billiard player tell me he dropped in on Chandeviert in Paris to buy some stuff &amp; it was 2 guys working in a little shop, they had been doing it that way for decades. Nice data guys, nice job on this.
Regards, Fast Larry Guninger

SpiderMan
02-20-2003, 08:52 PM
Tom,

Consistency: I judge the Talisman to have hard and soft areas, as evidenced by the varying layer thicknesses viewed at the edge. I believe that when the layers are compressed in manufacture, the softer areas squash more and the harder areas less. If not this, then the leather is not skived to a uniform thickness to begin with. This is why, when you look at the shaped crown of a Talisman, you see odd star- or amoeba-shaped layers rather than concentric circles.

Quality: Viewing the Talisman from a side (profile), you can actually find what appear to be inclusions of foreign material. These appear as "knotty spots" in the leather, and are probably that rather than actual FM.

When speaking of these comparisons, I refer to the Talisman Pro series.

I don't have a Moori close at hand, but I do have one Instroke tip that Rip sent me last week. I also have a pretty large collection of Talismans. I'll see what I can do about taking a side-by-side photo with my macro lens. It won't be as revealing as the microscope, but you will easily see the varying layer thickness and perhaps some of the inclusions/knots.

No, I can't quantify the importance of all this - it's just something I have observed. However, I don't think consistency of materials and care in assembly can hurt.

I won't get the pictures done tonight, I'm cooking a big pot of Texas chili .....

SpiderMan

griffith_d
02-20-2003, 10:08 PM
In the past you have seen my posts for Talisman and just raved about them, and they are still a good tip, but one delaminated during competition and ruined what could have been money in bank (I had no spare shaft), as I was kicking a**, so I switched to Moori.

I can see what spiderman is saying, the Talisman's layers are wavy where the Moori's are not. That right there will indicate quality leather and workmanship.

Not all leather is created equal, it is equalized in picking the best and layering in the finest with glue to make a good tip.

How many leather jackets have you seen,...and of course they were all equal in cost and quality, right?

Griff

SpiderMan
02-21-2003, 03:10 PM
Hey Griff,

If you numbered the layers 1, 2, 3...., with layer 1 being nearest (glued) to your ferrule, in which layer of that Talisman did you notice your separation? So far, ALL of the Talisman separations I have evaluated have been in layers 2, 3, or 4 (within about 0.100" of the glue joint).

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote griffith_d:</font><hr> In the past you have seen my posts for Talisman and just raved about them, and they are still a good tip, but one delaminated during competition and ruined what could have been money in bank (I had no spare shaft), as I was kicking a**, so I switched to Moori.

I can see what spiderman is saying, the Talisman's layers are wavy where the Moori's are not. That right there will indicate quality leather and workmanship.

Not all leather is created equal, it is equalized in picking the best and layering in the finest with glue to make a good tip.

How many leather jackets have you seen,...and of course they were all equal in cost and quality, right?

Griff <hr /></blockquote>

Popcorn
02-21-2003, 03:25 PM
I am told that Moori tips are glued up one layer at a time and that is why they are so perfect. One layer is glued and pressed till dry then the next and so on till the wanted number of layers have been added. This lets them apply a perfect layer of glue to each layer. This is done in small sheets of course, not each tip. I don't think other makers use this time consuming process. I can picture them gluing up the whole mess and pressing it. This would have to result in glue voids as well as uneven pressing throughout the stack of layers. If your tip comes from the small area where one of these glue voids are, and I am just speculating, it will separate. If he is not giving away any trade secreats I would be curious what Tony from Talisman has to say.

WaltVA
02-21-2003, 03:36 PM
SpiderMan - Have the Talisman delaminations you've seen been in the Pro or WB tips, or both?

I've installed about a dozen of the domed WB's with no complaints, but had no experience with the Pro line; was thinking of trying a few. TIA,

Walt in VA

SpiderMan
02-21-2003, 04:21 PM
Walt,

Your users might have problems and not know it, hence no complaints yet.

The tips I referenced were all Pro series. Sometimes they lasted six months, other times only six weeks. About 5 of the ones I've done eventually went south. I've also looked at about 5 done by other installers that did the same thing.

The first thing you notice is one layer looking a lot different in color and texture, because as it breaks down it becomes spongy and porous, and collects chalk dust. At this point it might sound a little different, but many players might not notice. In the more advanced stages, this breakdown will be severe enough that you can push on the side of the tip with your fingernail and see the gap move.

I don't have any long-term experience with the WB series - I had one on my play cue for a while but cut it off after a week. Sid has one on a break cue, but it doesn't see enough use to go bad in our lifetime (his practice partner always makes him rack).

SpiderMan

WaltVA
02-21-2003, 05:32 PM
SpiderMan - Thanks for the input. I have Hard WB's on two of my shafts and have seen no problems in almost a year of steady play.

I'm not familiar with the Pro line; there'a another guy who does some tip work locally who installs a lot of Pro's and I'm going to check with him to see if he's had any complaints or problems.

Thanks again -

Walt in VA

griffith_d
02-21-2003, 05:36 PM
spiderman

My separation occurred on the end of the tip. The dime dome just came right off and was flat on the end, as if only the ferrule was there. It was useless to repair, it would have taken a lathe.

I bought the 314 shaft from Seybert's, who took off the LePro that came on it and put on a Talisman Pro M, which I paid extra for. It only last two weeks before lamination.

I wrote and called Seybert's and they made good even for shipping both ways. All I paid for was the difference in the Moori.

That was 4 months ago and the Moori is going strong. I am not going to cut down Talisman, as I still think they are a good tip for the money, but Moori has got my attention.

I think Tiger products are a good tip, as I have one on my Pred Bk,...it is finally starting to mushroom and am looking for my next tip to put on it.

Tony gave me some special Talisman break tips to test in the past,...I put one on a POS cue and tried it awhile. I might try that otherwise; I will get a Moori Fast or similar hard tip, or maybe a Sniper.

Griff

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> Hey Griff,

If you numbered the layers 1, 2, 3...., with layer 1 being nearest (glued) to your ferrule, in which layer of that Talisman did you notice your separation? So far, ALL of the Talisman separations I have evaluated have been in layers 2, 3, or 4 (within about 0.100" of the glue joint).

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote griffith_d:</font><hr> In the past you have seen my posts for Talisman and just raved about them, and they are still a good tip, but one delaminated during competition and ruined what could have been money in bank (I had no spare shaft), as I was kicking a**, so I switched to Moori.

I can see what spiderman is saying, the Talisman's layers are wavy where the Moori's are not. That right there will indicate quality leather and workmanship.

Not all leather is created equal, it is equalized in picking the best and layering in the finest with glue to make a good tip.

How many leather jackets have you seen,...and of course they were all equal in cost and quality, right?

Griff <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Troy
02-21-2003, 06:27 PM
It is unfortunate that you had one Talisman tip delaminate. When I first started installing Talisman Pro domed tips I too had a few delaminate until I figured out how to treat layered tips in general.

I do not trim the tip to the ferrule with a razor blade by running the razor blade from the ferrule toward the end of the tip. This can cause a problem since the action tends to pull the layers apart.

I also believe that the heat created from burnishing causes the adhesive in the layers to soften. Allowing that adhesive to "re-set" (ie, cool) after burnishing and prior to shaping makes a huge difference. I allow about 30 minutes and it certainly seems to be successful.

I have since installed approximately 100 Talisman Pro domed Tips (plus numerous other layered tips) and have had zero delaminations. I have had nothing but positive feedback from my customers.
I have been using the same Pro Soft every day for about 15 months with no problems.

Troy

L.S. Dennis
02-21-2003, 07:01 PM
Hey Troy,
Speaking of layered tips, lots of guys up in Daly City are useing the Sniper layered tip and crazy about it. In your opinion on a scale of let's say 1 to 10 how do they compare with yours and with the Moori?

Troy
02-21-2003, 07:15 PM
Sorry, but I have no personal experience with Sniper tips. I have heard nothing negative. However, looking at the website for Tiger Products, at $17.75 per tip (buying 1-2) or $15.00 per tip (buying a box of 12), they are priced on par with Moori.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote L.S. Dennis:</font><hr> Hey Troy,
Speaking of layered tips, lots of guys up in Daly City are useing the Sniper layered tip and crazy about it. In your opinion on a scale of let's say 1 to 10 how do they compare with yours and with the Moori? <hr /></blockquote>

griffith_d
02-21-2003, 08:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> It is unfortunate that you had one Talisman tip delaminate. When I first started installing Talisman Pro domed tips I too had a few delaminate until I figured out how to treat layered tips in general.

I do not trim the tip to the ferrule with a razor blade by running the razor blade from the ferrule toward the end of the tip. This can cause a problem since the action tends to pull the layers apart.

I also believe that the heat created from burnishing causes the adhesive in the layers to soften. Allowing that adhesive to "re-set" (ie, cool) after burnishing and prior to shaping makes a huge difference. I allow about 30 minutes and it certainly seems to be successful.

I have since installed approximately 100 Talisman Pro domed Tips (plus numerous other layered tips) and have had zero delaminations. I have had nothing but positive feedback from my customers.
I have been using the same Pro Soft every day for about 15 months with no problems.

Troy

<hr /></blockquote>

As I said earlier, Seybert's installed the Talisman Pro M, and true, maybe it was flawed or the process started the decline, but it is only one, as you said and I still have one on my Red Dot shaft, but I do not use it,..the 314 is the shaft of choice.

I have never altered any layered tip, as I know that might mess them up. It might have been a fluke.

Again, Talisman is a good tip for the money and I will not cut them down, I am mearly stating the fact of what happened and that Seyberts made good on the service.

Griff

TalismanTony
02-21-2003, 09:31 PM
Hi Popcorn,

We do not just apply glue to each layer as this could cause glue voids, instead we roll the strips around in a glue drum for around one hour. This way the layers become impregnated with glue before the laminatng process. We apply one layer at a time and roll out any pockets of air before applying the next layer. When all the layers are assembeled we press them in a hydraulic press.

Regarding the appearance of the wavy lines around the PRO tips, this is because we use thinner layers than some other brands, this makes it easier to make sure no air pockets occur between layers.

Regarding Moori tips. I heard that Mr. Moori has died and that a company has purchased the rights to the name and is now mass producing the tips. I cannot confirm this of course but I have heard the same thing from 3 sources in Japan. I have also received reports that the new moori tips are not as good quality and consistent as the originals.

Kind regards,
Tony.

Popcorn
02-21-2003, 11:35 PM
Sounds like the way to do it. There is certainly a glut of Moori tips around now, so maybe there is something to what you are saying. To date, I have not heard anything negative about the Moori tips now being produced, but time will tell.

TalismanTony
02-22-2003, 07:58 AM
Hi Popcorn.

Moori was allways the class act that cue tip manufacturers had to follow. I am an Engineer so I always strive to make the best product I can, from a technical stand point. Our layers are all very uniform, they are skived to the same thickness using a digital machine and I only use 2 inches either side of the spine of a hide. As this is the most consistent from hide to hide. Please remember that leather is a natural material, its the skin of an animal, so inconsistency is the norm.

I then test each individual layer with a durometer, if its not within a very tight hardness band then it is disgarded. We also reject any piece with any "visible" defects. Playability is the first criteria I am looking at, followed closely by consistency.

To be honest making a tip that looks (under a microscope) like a moori is not that hard, making a great playing cue tip is much harder. There are many factories in China making Moori "fakes", these are cheap tips made with sub standard quality materials but they do look like Mooris. They do not however, play like an original moori.

Traditionally Moori tips were very expensive, this was a clear example of supply and demand. Mr. Moori made a certain number of tips per month and demand for the tips in the US decided the price. The fact that there were so many middle men between Mr. Moori and the player led to the outrages prices that moori tips went for in the past.

Now that a company is "MASS" producing the tips means that prices will go down (supply is much more than demand) but these cannot and will not be the same tips as originally gained the excelent reputation as in the past. Even the tin that new Moori tips come in now is cheaper than before.

To finsh off, I would just like to say that I am the only cue tip manufacturer that offers an "Iron Clad" 100% satisfaction gaurantee. If for any reason you do not like the Talisman tip you have purchased from me then I will give you your money back + $10 cash.

Who else offers this or anything close?

kind regards,

Popcorn
02-22-2003, 09:29 AM
Quote.
"There are many factories in China making Moori "fakes", these are cheap tips made with sub standard quality materials but they do look like Mooris. They do not however, play like an original moori."

Do you mean they are making copies in concept, or actually making copies. In other words fake tips they mark moori? That has been rumored but do you know if there is any truth to it? I would think it would be almost impossible to tell. If that was in fact the case, you would have to be afraid to buy any tip marked Moori. It is not like your life depends on it, but you hate getting ripped off. Can "you" tell, if you have one of the tips in your hands if it is real or not?

Troy
02-22-2003, 10:13 AM
I stopped trying to buy Moori tips. I certainly won't buy any of the "Moori" tips that I now see advertised in the $10-$12 each range on E-Bay.

TalismanTony
02-22-2003, 08:30 PM
Hi Popcorn,

Around one year ago, we were sent a couple of tips that were marked as Moori and I was told they had come from a factory in China. I tried one out and it wasn't a real Moori, it didn't shape very well, didn't hold the chalk well and kept on mushrooming during play. I don't know how many tips like this found their way on to the market but they certanly were made to fool people who wanted a genuine moori. The prices that real moori tips were being sold for makes for a pretty strong incentive to factories to copy them. At the time I tried to find out what factory was producing them and I was told there was more than one involved but that some of the copies didn't even look that close to the original.

I also got hold of a box of Hercules tips that weren't genuine and they came in a vinyl box instead of the leather box and looked quite different from original Hercules tips, I was told they originated from China. Again I have no idea how many of these found their way on to the market, I did though get about 5 email messages from customers asking about this as they had been offered tips that looked different from regular Hercules.

Whatever tip you prefer, I would recommend buying from a reputable source.

Kind regards,

02-22-2003, 08:46 PM
I'll take a Triangle tip over any of the new products.

SpiderMan
02-22-2003, 08:58 PM
I have found that I cannot tell an Instroke from a (real) Moori after installation. Before installation, of course you can tell by looking at the flat ends because the Instrokes are not marked as Mooris.

Recently I found that I could not tell new Hercules tips from Talismans. I bought Hercules from Atlas Billiard Supply and received tips that were identical to non-domed Talisman Pros. I mean IDENTICAL twins, down to the Font, Size, and Color of the stamped markings.

I felt strongly that Atlas had an inventory mixup, and had several phone and email conversations with them, but I was assured that this is how Hercules tips currently appear.

Tony, you once posted that Hercules and Talisman had in prior years been manufactured in the same plant. Has this relationship been re-established, and Hercules will be identical to Talisman?

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
02-22-2003, 09:15 PM
Tony,

Since you've been playing with just one tip for 15 months, sounds like you got a good one. I've also had some reflect that experience.

However, I've also seen the problems Grif describes. Not to the point of "coming apart", but definitely a spongy layer. Sid V, who posts here, has personally had a couple, not occuring until after months of play. I doubt it was installation damage when it took that long to manifest, particularly since he has other tips (including Talisman WB) that worked fine.

I carry a jeweler's loupe in my case wherever I go, and I've made a habit of examining tips of players in my four weekly leagues. Talisman Pros DO appear to have a higher failure rate than the average layered tip.

I agree on your points of potential damage to layered tips during installation, both mechanical (trimming) and heat (burnishing). Perhaps you are also correct that Talismans are more fragile than other layered tips during installation. Perhaps this fragility continues beyond installation.

As an engineer you probably recognize that the "weak sisters" in a statistical population usually manifest as infant mortality. That's why burn-in is used in high-reliability systems.

Beyond the infant-mortality stage, most failures are associated with wearout and are characteristic of the part rather than it's assembly or installation. This is the classic "bathtub curve" of MTTF. I suspect that these failures which are seen months down the road are the result of the repetitive stress of pounding the cue ball.

I wonder, if you could recall them for examination under a microscope, how many of the Talisman Pros you've installed would reveal the beginnings of layer problems near the bottom of the stack? That's where I've consistently seen trouble.

I've seen spongy-layer issues where the player had not noticed that the sound had dulled slightly over time, thinking it was normal. He too would be a "satisfied customer", for all his tip man knew.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> It is unfortunate that you had one Talisman tip delaminate. When I first started installing Talisman Pro domed tips I too had a few delaminate until I figured out how to treat layered tips in general.

I do not trim the tip to the ferrule with a razor blade by running the razor blade from the ferrule toward the end of the tip. This can cause a problem since the action tends to pull the layers apart.

I also believe that the heat created from burnishing causes the adhesive in the layers to soften. Allowing that adhesive to "re-set" (ie, cool) after burnishing and prior to shaping makes a huge difference. I allow about 30 minutes and it certainly seems to be successful.

I have since installed approximately 100 Talisman Pro domed Tips (plus numerous other layered tips) and have had zero delaminations. I have had nothing but positive feedback from my customers.
I have been using the same Pro Soft every day for about 15 months with no problems.

Troy

<hr /></blockquote>

SpiderMan
02-22-2003, 09:48 PM
Grif,

Sid's evaluating one of the Talisman break tips now. It seems like a pretty good matchup for the application.

Here's another possibility - consider also the single-layer "WB" in "natural" color. Despite the assertions of many that there is no difference but color, I bought a box of these to compare with the black WB I currently offer.

The tan-colored WB tips were too dense and hard for most players, so I tried them on a break cue, cut down to about half height and with a very flat dome (about "quarter" radius). I'm extremely satisfied with the results. If you want to give it a try, PM me your mailing adress and I'll send you one.

PS - another way I know that the Black and Natural WB tips are not the same .... they are not the same diameter. Both are marked as 14 mm but the natural are measureably smaller. Identical? No way. They are not even punched out of the same die.

SpiderMan