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View Full Version : banking short--cut from Larry thread

heater451
02-21-2003, 01:33 PM
This deserves its own post (IMO):

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
I'll risk it, so here it goes:

1.) higher speed isn't the cause for a ball to bank shorter

Fred &lt;~~~ isn't waiting to get his ass kissed. <hr /></blockquote>

Fred...That's a great topic for discussion! I have always been under the impression that the ball banks shorter with more speed, because the OB skids into the rail, rather than rolling. What is your take on why it banks shorter (this is assuming all factors, such as no sidespin, or backspin are having an effect on the shot)?

Scott <hr /></blockquote>
That's exactly right, as far as the theory and tests go. So, yes, higher speed certainly makes the bank shorter because the ball is still skidding and not rolling. The importance of this is evident when the object ball is near (nearly on) the cushion. Without any distance for the object ball to pick up natural roll, no amount of speed will make the ball bank shorter.

Here's the standard proof setup:

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

START(
%AS2Z4%BQ6X3%ER4Y4%HP9W2%PM1R2%Ue6E1%VT3[0%W`8D6%XS9[1%[O7U7
%\M7S0%]R6Z9%^C0D6
)END

Using a cuestick, line up four ball frozen, having the lead ball (the one-ball) very near the cushion. Shoot the shot with any speed, and it will hit the same spot as long as there's no table roll. The shot will bank shorter than the theoretical angle in/angle out idea.

All cushions should bank shorter than the theoretical mirror system if there's no spin on the object ball. It's the spring return idea, where some of the spring return force is directed perpendicular to the contact point on the cushion, which makes the overal return angle shorter.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote socrates:</font><hr> Probabally be many points of view here - looking forward to Fred's explanation as to why the ball banks shorter.

One theory, that conceptually makes sense to me, is that the speed causes the ball to go deeper into the cushion thus compressing the cushion more, which shortens the bank. In this scenario I am assuming that english was not used on the shot and the only variable is speed.

Looking forward to other possible explanations. <hr /></blockquote>

I was under the impression that the cushion "give" was a factor, but I knew it wasn't the only one. . . .

=============

Fred Agnir
02-21-2003, 01:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> This deserves its own post (IMO):

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote socrates:</font><hr> Probabally be many points of view here - looking forward to Fred's explanation as to why the ball banks shorter

One theory, that conceptually makes sense to me, is that the speed causes the ball to go deeper into the cushion thus compressing the cushion more, which shortens the bank. In this scenario I am assuming that english was not used on the shot and the only variable is speed..<hr /></blockquote>

The only reason that a ball will bank short due to speed is exactly what Scott Lee said. The ball isn't rolling. If you try the standard proof setup that I've diagrammed, you will clearly see that speed, cushion compression, what have you don't contribute much if anything at all.

[ QUOTE ]
I was under the impression that the cushion "give" was a factor, but I knew it wasn't the only one. . . .<hr /></blockquote>
This is what I thought as well, but I was proven wrong. Cushion compression doesn't do diddly, unless the cushion is so thin that you end up hitting the actual rail. Then the system becomes something else other than ball/cushion contact. Try the proof setup.

Fred

socrates
02-21-2003, 02:32 PM
Thanks.

In my opinion, this is an example of what makes this board so interesting and valuable.

Instinctively many of us are aware of the effect of certain aspects of the game. However, sometimes having something explained a different way opens up a whole new avenue of understanding.

In this case a new awareness of sliding ball vs. rolling ball along with speed going into a cushion be it a kick or a bank has put another element of understanding, at least for myself, into the instinctive computer.

Ken
02-21-2003, 04:09 PM
At the risk of being called a blasphemer I must report that I have tried it and I get a clear effect of speed. I set up the shot so an easy hit would miss the side pocket just beyond the projection. At a higher speed the bank went in every time. About one ball width difference.

I used an elephant ball so I could see roll. Of course into the close rail I was unable to see roll because there was not enough room. But coming off the rail the ball was always rolling when it got to the second rail. Clearly no skidding involved but the angles shortened considerably more as speed increased.

The effect of speed was so great that at an angle that always hit below the side pocket a slow shot would continue up the table past the side pocket. On fast shots the ball would stay below the side pocket and bounce back and forth.

I would assume that speed might effect the spin the ball has off the rail but that should be a clue that angle also is affected.

I suppose I could have been too far off the rail. I used a chalk width since that was a convenient measuring device that I had close. I used four balls as shown in the diagram. The balls were against a piece of quarter round wood so I suppose I could have gotten a bit of spin from being next to the wood. I will try to refine my setup the next time by using hole reinforcements to position the balls or put the quarter round on the other side.
KenCT

Ken
02-21-2003, 07:09 PM
Further experimentation reveals that the effect of rolling the ball into the rail is far greater than the small difference caused by speed.

The slow speed shot done from about a foot off the rail sends the ball about one diamond further down the table. The fast shot done from a foot off the rail ends up at about the same point as when it was a half inch off the rail.

The experient needs to be done a foot or more away from the rail in order to establish how far a ball will bank when it rolls into the rail. Once that is established the experiment as described shows that any effect of speed on a skidding ball is much smaller.

It appears that Fred is correct but it is hard to see without first determining where the rolling ball will bank. The effect is very pronounced once that is established.
KenCT

Alfie
02-21-2003, 09:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred:</font><hr> Here's the standard proof setup:
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

START(%AS2Z4%BQ6X3%ER4Y4%HP9W2%PM1R2%Ue6E1%VT3[0%W`8D6%XS9[1%[O7U7%\M7S0%]R6Z9%^C0D6)END

Using a cuestick, line up four ball frozen, having the lead ball (the one-ball) very near the cushion. Shoot the shot with any speed, and it will hit the same spot as long as there's no table roll. The shot will bank shorter than the theoretical angle in/angle out idea. <hr /></blockquote>In case anyone is bedridden and can't get to a pool table, send someone out to get Byrne's Vol. 5 - Power Pool Workout. He demonstrates this very well on it.

tateuts
02-22-2003, 06:02 PM
My opinion is that on a straight in bank, where there is no angle between the cue ball and the object ball, the speed makes little difference. When there is any degree of angle between the object ball and cue ball, the speed makes a lot of difference, because there will be sidespin imparted on the object ball through contact with the cue ball at an angle. My belief is that the object ball sidespin (english) can get more traction against the rail at slower speeds, so the english "takes" and sends the object ball off at more of an angle. When you fire a bank shot, the english can't take as much.

Anyway, that's what I've always thought.

Chris

Fred Agnir
02-23-2003, 06:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ken:</font><hr>

I would assume that speed might effect the spin the ball has off the rail but that should be a clue that angle also is affected.

I suppose I could have been too far off the rail. I used a chalk width since that was a convenient measuring device that I had close. I used four balls as shown in the diagram. The balls were against a piece of quarter round wood so I suppose I could have gotten a bit of spin from being next to the wood. I will try to refine my setup the next time by using hole reinforcements to position the balls or put the quarter round on the other side.
KenCT <hr /></blockquote>
Three things: switch sides to make sure it's not a table roll, use a straight edge and two reference points to line up the balls (hole reinforcements will not do) and get the first ball closer to the cushion so that there's no chance for the ball to get natural roll. We're talking a quarter inch or less. A chalk cube is way too much distance. The whole idea of these other constraints is to get them out of the picture and only test speed.

When setup to eliminate natural forward roll, and with no table roll, I guarantee that you won't find a discernable difference in travel angle by changing speeds. A ball width is entirely out of the question, barring wind gusts, I suppose.

Fred

Predator314
02-24-2003, 07:23 AM
I was always under the impression that the harder you hit it, the more the ball shortens up. And this still seems to be true in most cases.

However, this Saturday, my buddies and I were fooling around and my friend wanted me to make a shot. He put the cue ball on the spot where the balls are racked and put the object ball even with the first diamond before the side pocket (exactly one ball width off the rail). He wanted me to bank it in the side (without cross banking it).

It looked like an easy shot. I tried shooting harder with inside english. It always went long by about an inch. He said that I couldn't hit it that hard. I then tried the inside english with a medium speed hit. The ball went right in. The inside english shorted the bank up more than hitting it hard. I guess when I'm hitting the bank harder, the rail shortens the bank, but the object ball is moving too fast for the english to "catch".

I don't know if that makes sense. If it does, give it a try.

Ross
02-24-2003, 10:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Predator314:</font><hr> ...He put the cue ball on the spot where the balls are racked and put the object ball even with the first diamond before the side pocket (exactly one ball width off the rail). He wanted me to bank it in the side (without cross banking it).
... <hr /></blockquote>

Can your post a Wei diagram for this? I'm not clear what the setup is.

Fred Agnir
02-24-2003, 10:16 AM
Maybe like this?

START(
%AU2Y5%PN9O5%W[5E0%XV2Z5%eA9a4

)END

Fred

Scott Lee
02-24-2003, 12:20 PM
Fred...Yes, that is it. That is a very old proposition shot, that has been around for decades. The easiest way to make the shot, is to shoot a medium speed draw stroke, with inside english. The draws cause the CB to get out of the way of the OB banking cross-side. Many people have been hustled out of tons of dough with this shot, but it not a particularly difficult one.

Scott Lee

Tom_In_Cincy
02-24-2003, 02:55 PM
Medium Speed STUN shot, with low inside.. aim directly at the OB

This shot is one that is a basis for good banking skills. It can make the tightest pockets bigger.

Once you learn this shot.. try a longer one rail shot.. and use the same inside stun speed. See how the OB responds. Its interesting.

randyg
02-24-2003, 06:53 PM
Fred knows how to bank...randyg

02-24-2003, 10:58 PM
I have been out of town &amp; just got in, may I say this is an excellent topic, and every person who posted gave a very intelligent position, very good data here for a lot of people. For me to become the lst person in history to hit a 10 rail bank when everyone before me tried for 159 years &amp; failed, then first to hit 11 &amp; then 12, you must ask yourself, did he do this by accident or fraud, was he lucky, or did he study &amp; really learn things others before him did not understand, is this guy really King Kong which Bob Byrne wrote about him in Billiards Digest. If it was not raw power, then what &amp; who gave him the knowledge to break this record that was considered by Hoppe &amp; Mosconi as impossible. It was pool's 3 minute mile, the impossible barrier. This was the longest held record to be broken in any sport in history. It would be a book to go into all of that, to be brief, let me first say go out &amp; bank on some cheap \$1000 piece of junk the rec warehouses sell, then bank on a new top of the line gold crown, then find a table that uses the German Artemis, find 20 banks that cover the test, then shoot them on these 3 tables. Now repeat this same experiment on these 3 same tables using a cheap roc solid white cue ball, out of a box that sells for \$15, then use a red circle, a blue circle, a super pro aramith &amp; then a Rashig cue ball, sorry about that, you can always borrow mine, use a Ivory ball also like I did, If you really want to have fun. Also use a oversized bar box ball, one that is the same size as a billiard ball, 65mm &amp; another one with a weight inside. Now do every one of these test using 4 different speeds, from very soft to very hard. Chart where every ball goes &amp; what it's angle is. What do think your test will reveal? The variables are endless. You will be stunned. Now what if we do it again on house cloth, 860, 760, this can go on &amp; on, low humidity, very high humidity, do you understand? What if the balls are dirty or clean, same on the cloth? I can drive you fargin nuts with what I can come up here.

Best Wishes, Fast Larry Guninger

bluewolf
02-25-2003, 06:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Fred knows how to bank...randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Do you use the diamond system for this or just go by 'feel'?

Rather than speed, I have been using oe to widen the bank and ie to narrow the bank with varying the amt of eng by how far I want to change the bank. Is this a wrong way to do it. If it is a perfect bank, I just use centerball. Oh yeah,on lots of them I use low to avoid a kiss. I use follow if they are not going to smooch to help with position. I am just starting so would like to hear here or pvt if I am going about this the wrong way.

btw, I do not use this or other stuff in matches that I am just beginning on unless it is my only shot and I dont have a safe.

Laura

02-25-2003, 10:13 PM
Dear Blue, very nice questions, my compliments:
You ask, do I use the Diamond system, do you want the friggin truth, or do you want me to impress Freddie. If you dont want the truth, for God's sake, fast forward immediately &amp; don't read any more of this blasphemy. Proceed directly to the Sid Vicious post, his teaching is more your speed &amp; on your wave length.
Do I use the Diamond system, yes &amp; no. Do I understand it, yes, do I teach it, yes. When you run into a teacher making a big deal out of the Diamond system, what you have is somebody trying to impress you on what a great guru they are, they can BS you into tomorrow on this subject. The Diamond system is extremely important in Billiards, so so in pool. Let us first examine the 2 greatest billiard players of all time, (l) Willie Hoppe, who I teach, who I have posted IMHO, OH NO, YOU HAVE ME NOW USING THIS TECHI CODE, was the greatest cueist of all time. If so, then Hoppe had to be an expert on the Diamond system, right, wrong. He never used it, he played by feel. When he wrote &amp; produced the greatest pool book of all time in l94l, Billiards as it should be played, he put in a large section going into great detail what the Diamond system was &amp; how it worked. It was great, &amp; most of that data was correct.
Hoppe never wrote a word of it. It all came from Byron Schoeman, the director of public relations of the Billiard Association of America. Look I know this is hard to believe, but if you ever run into Byrne or Shamos, ask them, they will confirm this is true. Who does 2/3rd's of the world think is the greatest cueist of all time, ask any one in Europe, there is no debate, Raymound Cuelemans, won over 100 major events, broke almost all of Hoppes records. Are you sitting down, when he won his first world title, he did not have a clue what the Diamond system was. Yes he uses it now. Go down under mate, and ask them who was the greatest cueist of all time, no worry, it was Walter Lindgrum, and he played English Billiards, &amp; he did not use the Diamond system either. If you tied me to a tree &amp; began to pull out teeth with a pair of pliars until I came clean &amp; really told you the truth who of the 3 was really the man, I would have to say, go down under mate, now untie me &amp; let's put a shrimp on the barbie, I am starved. I have stated already several times, my teaching method is to teach you how it is done mechnically, then take that away from you &amp; teach you how to do the same thing by feel. Pool is a feel game, not a mechnical game. Losers play by, systems, the great ones play by feel, one last example of this, to end this debate, Sang Lee, I rest my case.
I teach; you only use the Diamond system to line up the shot, to give you a zone to hit into, a narrow zone, then you turn the shot over to your cpu, it will take into account all the dozens of variables, cloth speed changing, humidity &amp; temperature changing, on &amp; on, &amp; your cpu will find &amp; hit the perfect spot to hit the shot. You have to learn to just see it, feel it, do it, I am telling you, that is all there is to it, it is nothing but a leap of faith. When a student comes to me, in lesson one I give him a diagram of a pool table that has marked on it every diamond &amp; it's number. He must memorize this, and every time I see him, I drill him by walking to different diamonds around the table &amp; asking him, what diamond # is this. I keep doing this, until he does it right. If he refuses to do this, I drop him as a student, he is not serious, or worthy, I don't need his money, or his badmouth later. We must establish a forum between us on how we communicate, and if I say hit diamond two with normal running english, I don't have time to explain to you every time what this means. I teach a very limited Diamond system to pool players, because if I taught it all to them, next week they will have forgot 90% of it, and they will never use 90% of it. You don't need all of it, unless you become a serious 3 cushion player. To do this, is nothing but a waste of the pool players time &amp; money, and a giant ego trip by the teacher. I teach them the 10% they will use &amp; need &amp; remember. If the player is very advanced or a pro, then I might go deeper into it if he pushes. Soon even apa 4's will be going 3 rails &amp; kicking in balls off of the rails just like they see Efren do on TV. I teach them tracks, how to transfer tracks, how to juice the ball to get back on a track that does not exist. Even with me teaching only 10% of what I know, it is still probably 50% more than what these other yo yo's know &amp; teach, if all that they do is play &amp; teach pool. If they actually play &amp; teach 3 cushion, then they will know, and they will agree with every word I have just written, Oh Fast, there you go dreaming again, you know if you get 10 pool players together, none of them can agree to use blue or green chalk, get 10 pool experts together, none of them can agree if black is white, or the sky is blue or gray. Just because you are a 3 cushion guy, looking down your nose at those poor lost souls who know only pool, SHAME ON YOU FAST. Sorry, I forgot my roots for a while, let me get down off of my perch. Old Fatty used to say, a billiard player is nuttin but a pool bum dressed up like a penguin. Puttin a pool player in a tux, is like puttin whipped cream on a hot dog, ah yes....WILLIE MOSS SCONE E, how can he ever win, Mosss scone E, don't get me started on Fatty please. There it is Blue, &amp; 5 gets you 8, 90% of you people either don't understand a word of this, or if you do, you now can't deal with it. It is easier on you to just say I don't no nuttin, den youse dont have to learn nuttin new, ask Sid, he will explain dis to you.
Learn to bank blue, Fast say's it's easy, and the more you bank, the better you get at it. Dont duck, every time a bank shot comes up. Shoot straight, innovate, and never give up, no matter how desperate the situation may be. Best Wishes, Fast Larry Guninger

bluewolf
02-26-2003, 07:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> Dear Blue, very nice questions, my compliments:

Back to blue, Some of your banking questions are a little confusing, but if position can be ignored, all I have to do is bank in the ball, I bank firm, I don't smoke the shot, but it is firm, not soft &amp; I always then use low english, you see hitting almost draw, produces follow. English reverses it self, it is like a clock, one gear moves left, moving another gear right. So to get a gear to move right, you have to move a gear left. English transfers. Method, when in doubt, determine what makes sense, what is the logicaly thing to do, then do just the opposite of that, and you will be right 99% of the time. Blue, this single tip, was worth the price of admission, it will bail your tail out so many times, you will name your next firstborn after me.
You ask, do I use the Diamond system, do you want the friggin truth, or do you want me to impress Freddie. If you dont want the truth, for God's sake, fast forward immediately &amp; don't read any more of this blasphemy. Proceed directly to the Sid Vicious post, his teaching is more your speed &amp; on your wave length.
Do I use the Diamond system, yes &amp; no. Do I understand it, yes, do I teach it, yes. When you run into a teacher making a big deal out of the Diamond system, what you have is somebody trying to impress you on what a great guru they are, they can BS you into tomorrow on this subject. The Diamond system is extremely important in Billiards, so so in pool. I have stated already several times, my teaching method is to teach you how it is done mechnically, then take that away from you &amp; teach you how to do the same thing by feel. Pool is a feel game, not a mechnical game. Losers play by, systems, the great ones play by feel,.I teach; you only use the Diamond system to line up the shot, to give you a zone to hit into, a narrow zone, then you turn the shot over to your cpu, it will take into account all the dozens of variables, cloth speed changing, humidity &amp; temperature changing, on &amp; on, &amp; your cpu will find &amp; hit the perfect spot to hit the shot. You have to learn to just see it, feel it, do it, I am telling you, that is all there is to it, it is nothing but a leap of faith. There it is Blue, &amp; 5 gets you 8, 90% of you people either don't understand a word of this, or if you do, you now can't deal with it. It is easier on you to just say I don't no nuttin, den youse dont have to learn nuttin new, ask Sid, he will explain dis to you.
Learn to bank blue, Fast say's it's easy, and the more you bank, the better you get at it. Dont duck, every time a bank shot comes up. Shoot straight, innovate, and never give up, no matter how desperate the situation may be. Best Wishes, Fast Larry Guninger <hr /></blockquote>

oe = outside english
ie = inside english
cb = cue ball
ob = object ball

Thanks Larry. What I understand about english is that it works like sailing a boat. If you push the tiller to the right, the boat goes left. If you strike the cb on the right, the cue spins away from the point it is struck, causing it to go left or vice versa. If you hit the cb on the bottom it sets up a gear effect when hitting the ob causing it to go in the opposit direction(top). When you hit the cb on the left, it goes right, then when it strikes the ob, they stick for an instant causing the ob to travel away from the side of the ball it is struck on momentarily. Now I hope I got that right.

I understand it when I look at the balls, just a matter of whether I got it right on paper or not. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

NOw, when I started pool, my apa7 hubbie wanted to teach me this diamond system, you know-divid this by one half and half again and I screamed 'get that stuff away from me!!'. Well now it does not confuse me and i do not scream, but i do not like it still.

I guess I would learn it if I had to but I would rather just use the diamonds for reference and aim points and learn the banks by trial and error. So for instance;;

I am banking from just in front of the side to the left corner bottom pocket. The ob is at the first diamond from the side pocket (about 4 in in front of rail) so I do not have a perfect angle in angle out situation. So I attempt to put a slight cut, say a 1/4 hit with oe to widen the angle. If the shot goes too wide (hits the end rail) then I applied too much oe and I try it again with a little less. If it goes too short,(falls to the right of the pocket on the long rail) then I did not put enough oe and I try a little more.

If I want to narrow the angle, then I would go through the same procedure with ie.

This is what I mean by trial and error, trying a shot and if it does not go in, try to figure out why and do the correction.

I work more on cuts, way more, than banks but i do work on these occasionally so that when i get to be an apa 4-5, i will be able to do them.

When doing kicks, I know even less but figure when I watch 'only kicks' again I might do better. for now, if I have a kick in a game, I just look at the angle and guess, which is crude so I do not get more than 50%, but they seem to have a wider margin of error than a bank I am thinking because I get more of them right.

Laura

but if my logic is flawed in some way then i would like to know about it.

Fred Agnir
02-26-2003, 07:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> I also have no desire to learn this new teckie text code thing you guys have going on. <hr /></blockquote>
That's unfortunate. It's the best tool on pool and billiards on the internet. I would think that you would want to add it to your library knowledge. You said we couldn't teach you anything. This is the one thing we can, and you'll be glad to learn it. Can we hear from some other old dogs out there that have been very happy to learn to use the Wei Table?

[ QUOTE ]
You ask, do I use the Diamond system, do you want the friggin truth, or do you want me to impress Freddie.<hr /></blockquote>
Keep me out of your deluded fantasies.

[ QUOTE ]
There it is Blue, &amp; 5 gets you 8, 90% of you people either don't understand a word of this, or if you do, you now can't deal <hr /></blockquote>
90% of us do understand, mostly agree with you, and have shared these same concepts since this board began (and long before, as well). Now what?

Fred

bluewolf
02-26-2003, 07:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> I also have no desire to learn this new teckie text code thing you guys have going on. <hr /></blockquote>
That's unfortunate. It's the best tool on pool and billiards on the internet. I would think that you would want to add it to your library knowledge. You said we couldn't teach you anything. This is the one thing we can, and you'll be glad to learn it. Can we hear from some other old dogs out there that have been very happy to learn to use the Wei Table?

<font color="blue"> </font color> I need to learn that too.
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
There it is Blue, &amp; 5 gets you 8, 90% of you people either don't understand a word of this, or if you do, you now can't deal <hr /></blockquote>

90% of us do understand, mostly agree with you, and have shared these same concepts since this board began (and long before, as well). Now what?
Fred <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> </font color> I generally skip those statements and go right for the pool 'meat',

Laura

cycopath
02-26-2003, 11:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> When you guys write in these codes, with these little numbers, I2l &amp; stuff like that, I dont have a clue what that stuff means.<hr /></blockquote>1 +H1Nk +hi\$ 15 T3h C0DE l@rrY i\$ +4LK1n9 4B0U+.

02-26-2003, 02:45 PM
Oh Freedie, some how I just knew you that you were going to jump in here, and your expert analysis of what I tried to teach here was so off base, I guess if you cant find it in your BCA teaching manual, then it has to be herasay? So you tell everyone I am operating in a delusion and what I write is a fantasy. I love it when you do this, this is so cool, keep cutting &amp; pasting stuff I say &amp; use them totally out of the context of the message. What I said is I speak 5 languages and have no desire to learn a 6th, but you chose to not cut &amp; paste that didn't you. I am sick of your low rent pot shots at trying to make me look like a bozo. Freedie, throw mud on me, I throw mud on you, mud slings in both directions. Fast Larry

Fred Agnir
02-26-2003, 03:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> Oh Freedie, some how I just knew you that you were going to jump in here, and your expert analysis of what I tried to teach here was so off base, I guess if you cant find it in your BCA teaching manual, then it has to be herasay? So you tell everyone I am operating in a delusion and what I write is a fantasy. I love it when you do this, this is so cool, keep cutting &amp; pasting stuff I say &amp; use them totally out of the context of the message. What I said is I speak 5 languages and have no desire to learn a 6th, but you chose to not cut &amp; paste that didn't you. I am sick of your low rent pot shots at trying to make me look like a bozo. Freedie, throw mud on me, I throw mud on you, mud slings in both directions. Fast Larry <hr /></blockquote>
Thanks for once again not bothering to read my post. You might have seen that I didn't say one thing about how you teach (which once again I will say I probably agree with 100%). I see you are having some kind of argument with me, but I still have no idea what you think I said.

And again, for the umpteenth time, I have no BCA teaching manual.

Fred &lt;~~~ wondering why I would have a BCA teaching manual

02-26-2003, 05:14 PM

bluewolf
02-26-2003, 05:35 PM
A great instructor is a gift. There are few really great ones, imo and more good ones and even more bad ones. But when I receive instruction from a great one, I have indeed discovered a pot of gold /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura

Tom_In_Cincy
02-26-2003, 05:45 PM

02-26-2003, 07:33 PM
Dear Tom In Cincy:
Thank you for the lovely note, any advice sent to me in friendship, will always be considered. Constructive criticism sent to me in private is always welcome, my email is fastlarry@earthlink.net. Post on the world wide web you think I stink and I am a bum, I get pissed. This entire thing was a giant case of mistaken identity, I changed my name, a lot of people did not know who I am or was. I dont ever pretend to be the main guru, read my posts, I have written that I know nothing. So much of what I have said has been screwed around. Should I lighten up on Fred, I just this minute read your comment on this, and if you check, you will see a hour earlier I apologized to him saying what I said was ignorant, and this has nothing to do with what you are telling me now.
I had so many people coming at me, and my problem is, I dont know who any of them are. I dont know if he is some bozo who cant run 3 balls, or if he is a world class instructor. Slowly I am begining to sort some of this out. You kick around many questions, I would rather give you a private response, so do email me &amp; I will respond back to you sir.
Your question, do I compete, I have been crippled for l l/2 hrs, the doctors gave me a total complete medicial disability. I could handly walk. During this time, I did not hit a ball, teach a lesson, or earn a dime. I am now in the process of trying to make a come back &amp; go back to work. I had a stroke, and a dozen other things piled up behind it. My A game is gone forever, I will never compete again, nor do feats of strength on a pool table. What I can &amp; will do well, is teach, and travel &amp; do pool shows &amp; exhibitions. Wonder Dog is in great health, he plays pool also. Thanks for the thought, Best Wishes, Fast Larry Guninger, check in on www.fastlarrypool.com (http://www.fastlarrypool.com)

02-26-2003, 09:15 PM

Scott Lee
02-26-2003, 09:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> Man, do you realize the heat I am catching for doing what I am doing, people are calling me ugly names &amp; to shut up my mouth. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> </font color> Who are these people, Larry? I don't know anybody here who has done that.

<hr /></blockquote> So I tried to write an instructional article, &amp; it came off looking like something Ewa publishes, it said nothing, taught nothing.

Best Wishes, Fast Larry Guninger

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> </font color> Nice...Larry! Anyone else you'd like to slander in public?

Scott Lee

02-26-2003, 11:38 PM
Dear Scott, every comment you have made on just about every thing I have said has been a slam and a cheap shot at me. Am I going to slander you back, no, I did a post that explained our situation &amp; said if anybody ever said anything bad about you, I would argue with them. I guess you missed it, or read &amp; ignored it &amp; just enjoy the witch hunt, what ever, good hunting. Life is too short to fight with you. Fast Larry

Scott Lee
02-27-2003, 04:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> Dear Scott, every comment you have made on just about every thing I have said has been a slam and a cheap shot at me.

Fast Larry <hr /></blockquote>

Please explain to me how everything I have said about you is a slam or a cheap shot! Back up what you say, Larry.
You denigrate Ewa's book and articles, and I pointed out that it wasn't very smart or nice to do so. How is that a slam or a cheap shot? Like I said in a previous post (which you apparently didn't read either), I have never taken exception with anything you've said, until you posted about using your legs on the break. You said it was ludicrous and stupid not to...and I said that there were certainly other ways to accomplish the task (which you agreed with in a later post on the same thread). A slam? Hardly. A cheap shot? Doubtful. A deserved response? Absolutely, imo.

Fred Agnir
02-27-2003, 07:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
. I dont know if (Fred) is some bozo who cant run 3 balls, or if he is a world class instructor<hr /></blockquote>
I'll set it straight. I realize you've mixed me up with someone else from the start, so here it goes:

I, Fred Agnir am a World Class Bozo who can run 4 balls occassionally, and am not an instructor.

Hope this helps,

Fred

Fred Agnir
02-27-2003, 08:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> All of you are in this same trap, and every one of your students. If you are teaching with a cam corder like I do, then you are not. <hr /></blockquote>
I would hope that all competent teachers use video cameras. So, we agree yet again.

[ QUOTE ]
I only came on this board, because several people reading you, asked me to. I said I don't want to, if I post my views, all hell is going to break loose.<hr /></blockquote>
Since most all of your views I agree with, what people are you talking about? I don't even know if there was one thing I actually disagree with, as far as your teaching methods go.
[ QUOTE ]
Fred, allow me to apologize for saying there is nothing you can ever teach me, that was very ignorant &amp; uncalled for.<hr /></blockquote>
Apology graciously accepted.
[ QUOTE ]
I have read your posts, you are obviously a very smart &amp; intelligent person, but not smart enough to pull me out on my draw secrets so you could slice &amp; dice me.<hr /></blockquote>
I'm not looking for secrets. Just discussions. If you don't want to share your secret, I don't blame you at all. Hopefully, you'll be at Valley Forge so I can learn from you.

[ QUOTE ]
I am in no contest here, I dont seek your title as head board guru...<hr /></blockquote>
I think someone's been lying to you about me.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont want a single one of your students, <hr /></blockquote>
And this proves it. I don't have students Larry. I am not a professional instructor.

Fred

bluewolf
02-27-2003, 09:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
. I dont know if (Fred) is some bozo who cant run 3 balls, or if he is a world class instructor<hr /></blockquote>
I'll set it straight. I realize you've mixed me up with someone else from the start, so here it goes:

I, Fred Agnir am a World Class Bozo who can run 4 balls occassionally, and am not an instructor.

Hope this helps,

Fred
<hr /></blockquote>

Fred is smart
Handsome
Nice
Apa 7

Laura

bluewolf
02-27-2003, 09:49 AM
The players here are three groups:

A players
APA 7s
APA 6 and below

We have a number of As and apa7 equivalents (some of which are also A), a few pros who post here, although some of them do not give their name, a few semi pro women as well.

Sure gives someone like me role models and lots of good stuff to learn /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura

landshark1002000
02-28-2003, 03:09 AM
Hi Scott:
As a writer, I can say from experience that most short instructional articles (500 words or less) can only teach one simple idea. Writers trying to express complex ideas either need a longer format or must instead use a series of articles in order to clearly develop their ideas.

The greatest challenge when writing in short format is to avoid over-simplifying. The page runs out so quickly that writers find themselves editting examples, cutting analogies and emphasizing "feel-good", "this-is-easy-for-beginners-too" comments.

In book-length format it's easy to tackle big, complex ideas because you have pages and pages of opportunities to describe, compare, contrast, etc. and still have space to digress into a story for emphasis.

For the reader of shorter instructional articles this means that shorter will often mean simpler treatment.

So whether the author is Ewa or someone else, every writer finds short pieces a real challenge.

--Ted from Phoenix