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heater451
02-21-2003, 01:33 PM
This deserves its own post (IMO):

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
I'll risk it, so here it goes:

1.) higher speed isn't the cause for a ball to bank shorter

Fred &lt;~~~ isn't waiting to get his ass kissed. <hr /></blockquote>

Fred...That's a great topic for discussion! I have always been under the impression that the ball banks shorter with more speed, because the OB skids into the rail, rather than rolling. What is your take on why it banks shorter (this is assuming all factors, such as no sidespin, or backspin are having an effect on the shot)?

Scott <hr /></blockquote>
That's exactly right, as far as the theory and tests go. So, yes, higher speed certainly makes the bank shorter because the ball is still skidding and not rolling. The importance of this is evident when the object ball is near (nearly on) the cushion. Without any distance for the object ball to pick up natural roll, no amount of speed will make the ball bank shorter.

Here's the standard proof setup:


http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

START(
%AS2Z4%BQ6X3%ER4Y4%HP9W2%PM1R2%Ue6E1%VT3[0%W`8D6%XS9[1%[O7U7
%\M7S0%]R6Z9%^C0D6
)END

Using a cuestick, line up four ball frozen, having the lead ball (the one-ball) very near the cushion. Shoot the shot with any speed, and it will hit the same spot as long as there's no table roll. The shot will bank shorter than the theoretical angle in/angle out idea.

All cushions should bank shorter than the theoretical mirror system if there's no spin on the object ball. It's the spring return idea, where some of the spring return force is directed perpendicular to the contact point on the cushion, which makes the overal return angle shorter.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote socrates:</font><hr> Probabally be many points of view here - looking forward to Fred's explanation as to why the ball banks shorter.

One theory, that conceptually makes sense to me, is that the speed causes the ball to go deeper into the cushion thus compressing the cushion more, which shortens the bank. In this scenario I am assuming that english was not used on the shot and the only variable is speed.

Looking forward to other possible explanations. <hr /></blockquote>

I was under the impression that the cushion "give" was a factor, but I knew it wasn't the only one. . . .



=============

Fred Agnir
02-21-2003, 01:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> This deserves its own post (IMO):

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote socrates:</font><hr> Probabally be many points of view here - looking forward to Fred's explanation as to why the ball banks shorter

One theory, that conceptually makes sense to me, is that the speed causes the ball to go deeper into the cushion thus compressing the cushion more, which shortens the bank. In this scenario I am assuming that english was not used on the shot and the only variable is speed..<hr /></blockquote>

The only reason that a ball will bank short due to speed is exactly what Scott Lee said. The ball isn't rolling. If you try the standard proof setup that I've diagrammed, you will clearly see that speed, cushion compression, what have you don't contribute much if anything at all.



[ QUOTE ]
I was under the impression that the cushion "give" was a factor, but I knew it wasn't the only one. . . .<hr /></blockquote>
This is what I thought as well, but I was proven wrong. Cushion compression doesn't do diddly, unless the cushion is so thin that you end up hitting the actual rail. Then the system becomes something else other than ball/cushion contact. Try the proof setup.

Fred

socrates
02-21-2003, 02:32 PM
Thanks.

In my opinion, this is an example of what makes this board so interesting and valuable.

Instinctively many of us are aware of the effect of certain aspects of the game. However, sometimes having something explained a different way opens up a whole new avenue of understanding.

In this case a new awareness of sliding ball vs. rolling ball along with speed going into a cushion be it a kick or a bank has put another element of understanding, at least for myself, into the instinctive computer.

Ken
02-21-2003, 04:09 PM
At the risk of being called a blasphemer I must report that I have tried it and I get a clear effect of speed. I set up the shot so an easy hit would miss the side pocket just beyond the projection. At a higher speed the bank went in every time. About one ball width difference.

I used an elephant ball so I could see roll. Of course into the close rail I was unable to see roll because there was not enough room. But coming off the rail the ball was always rolling when it got to the second rail. Clearly no skidding involved but the angles shortened considerably more as speed increased.

The effect of speed was so great that at an angle that always hit below the side pocket a slow shot would continue up the table past the side pocket. On fast shots the ball would stay below the side pocket and bounce back and forth.

I would assume that speed might effect the spin the ball has off the rail but that should be a clue that angle also is affected.

I suppose I could have been too far off the rail. I used a chalk width since that was a convenient measuring device that I had close. I used four balls as shown in the diagram. The balls were against a piece of quarter round wood so I suppose I could have gotten a bit of spin from being next to the wood. I will try to refine my setup the next time by using hole reinforcements to position the balls or put the quarter round on the other side.
KenCT

Ken
02-21-2003, 07:09 PM
Further experimentation reveals that the effect of rolling the ball into the rail is far greater than the small difference caused by speed.

The slow speed shot done from about a foot off the rail sends the ball about one diamond further down the table. The fast shot done from a foot off the rail ends up at about the same point as when it was a half inch off the rail.

The experient needs to be done a foot or more away from the rail in order to establish how far a ball will bank when it rolls into the rail. Once that is established the experiment as described shows that any effect of speed on a skidding ball is much smaller.

It appears that Fred is correct but it is hard to see without first determining where the rolling ball will bank. The effect is very pronounced once that is established.
KenCT

Alfie
02-21-2003, 09:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred:</font><hr> Here's the standard proof setup:
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

START(%AS2Z4%BQ6X3%ER4Y4%HP9W2%PM1R2%Ue6E1%VT3[0%W`8D6%XS9[1%[O7U7%\M7S0%]R6Z9%^C0D6)END

Using a cuestick, line up four ball frozen, having the lead ball (the one-ball) very near the cushion. Shoot the shot with any speed, and it will hit the same spot as long as there's no table roll. The shot will bank shorter than the theoretical angle in/angle out idea. <hr /></blockquote>In case anyone is bedridden and can't get to a pool table, send someone out to get Byrne's Vol. 5 - Power Pool Workout. He demonstrates this very well on it.

tateuts
02-22-2003, 06:02 PM
My opinion is that on a straight in bank, where there is no angle between the cue ball and the object ball, the speed makes little difference. When there is any degree of angle between the object ball and cue ball, the speed makes a lot of difference, because there will be sidespin imparted on the object ball through contact with the cue ball at an angle. My belief is that the object ball sidespin (english) can get more traction against the rail at slower speeds, so the english "takes" and sends the object ball off at more of an angle. When you fire a bank shot, the english can't take as much.

Anyway, that's what I've always thought.

Chris

Fred Agnir
02-23-2003, 06:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ken:</font><hr>

I would assume that speed might effect the spin the ball has off the rail but that should be a clue that angle also is affected.

I suppose I could have been too far off the rail. I used a chalk width since that was a convenient measuring device that I had close. I used four balls as shown in the diagram. The balls were against a piece of quarter round wood so I suppose I could have gotten a bit of spin from being next to the wood. I will try to refine my setup the next time by using hole reinforcements to position the balls or put the quarter round on the other side.
KenCT <hr /></blockquote>
Three things: switch sides to make sure it's not a table roll, use a straight edge and two reference points to line up the balls (hole reinforcements will not do) and get the first ball closer to the cushion so that there's no chance for the ball to get natural roll. We're talking a quarter inch or less. A chalk cube is way too much distance. The whole idea of these other constraints is to get them out of the picture and only test speed.

When setup to eliminate natural forward roll, and with no table roll, I guarantee that you won't find a discernable difference in travel angle by changing speeds. A ball width is entirely out of the question, barring wind gusts, I suppose.

Fred

Predator314
02-24-2003, 07:23 AM
I was always under the impression that the harder you hit it, the more the ball shortens up. And this still seems to be true in most cases.

However, this Saturday, my buddies and I were fooling around and my friend wanted me to make a shot. He put the cue ball on the spot where the balls are racked and put the object ball even with the first diamond before the side pocket (exactly one ball width off the rail). He wanted me to bank it in the side (without cross banking it).

It looked like an easy shot. I tried shooting harder with inside english. It always went long by about an inch. He said that I couldn't hit it that hard. I then tried the inside english with a medium speed hit. The ball went right in. The inside english shorted the bank up more than hitting it hard. I guess when I'm hitting the bank harder, the rail shortens the bank, but the object ball is moving too fast for the english to "catch".

I don't know if that makes sense. If it does, give it a try.

Ross
02-24-2003, 10:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Predator314:</font><hr> ...He put the cue ball on the spot where the balls are racked and put the object ball even with the first diamond before the side pocket (exactly one ball width off the rail). He wanted me to bank it in the side (without cross banking it).
... <hr /></blockquote>

Can your post a Wei diagram for this? I'm not clear what the setup is.

Fred Agnir
02-24-2003, 10:16 AM
Maybe like this?

START(
%AU2Y5%PN9O5%W[5E0%XV2Z5%eA9a4

)END

Fred

Scott Lee
02-24-2003, 12:20 PM
Fred...Yes, that is it. That is a very old proposition shot, that has been around for decades. The easiest way to make the shot, is to shoot a medium speed draw stroke, with inside english. The draws cause the CB to get out of the way of the OB banking cross-side. Many people have been hustled out of tons of dough with this shot, but it not a particularly difficult one.

Scott Lee

Tom_In_Cincy
02-24-2003, 02:55 PM
Medium Speed STUN shot, with low inside.. aim directly at the OB

This shot is one that is a basis for good banking skills. It can make the tightest pockets bigger.

Once you learn this shot.. try a longer one rail shot.. and use the same inside stun speed. See how the OB responds. Its interesting.

randyg
02-24-2003, 06:53 PM
Fred knows how to bank...randyg

02-24-2003, 10:58 PM
I have been out of town &amp; just got in, may I say this is an excellent topic, and every person who posted gave a very intelligent position, very good data here for a lot of people. For me to become the lst person in history to hit a 10 rail bank when everyone before me tried for 159 years &amp; failed, then first to hit 11 &amp; then 12, you must ask yourself, did he do this by accident or fraud, was he lucky, or did he study &amp; really learn things others before him did not understand, is this guy really King Kong which Bob Byrne wrote about him in Billiards Digest. If it was not raw power, then what &amp; who gave him the knowledge to break this record that was considered by Hoppe &amp; Mosconi as impossible. It was pool's 3 minute mile, the impossible barrier. This was the longest held record to be broken in any sport in history. It would be a book to go into all of that, to be brief, let me first say go out &amp; bank on some cheap $1000 piece of junk the rec warehouses sell, then bank on a new top of the line gold crown, then find a table that uses the German Artemis, find 20 banks that cover the test, then shoot them on these 3 tables. Now repeat this same experiment on these 3 same tables using a cheap roc solid white cue ball, out of a box that sells for $15, then use a red circle, a blue circle, a super pro aramith &amp; then a Rashig cue ball, sorry about that, you can always borrow mine, use a Ivory ball also like I did, If you really want to have fun. Also use a oversized bar box ball, one that is the same size as a billiard ball, 65mm &amp; another one with a weight inside. Now do every one of these test using 4 different speeds, from very soft to very hard. Chart where every ball goes &amp; what it's angle is. What do think your test will reveal? The variables are endless. You will be stunned. Now what if we do it again on house cloth, 860, 760, this can go on &amp; on, low humidity, very high humidity, do you understand? What if the balls are dirty or clean, same on the cloth? I can drive you fargin nuts with what I can come up here.
So I won't. In the era of 14.l, it was a soft game, shots were hit soft, so were banks. The old l4.l Brunswick rail heights I always thought were too high, &amp; yes you bet I did considerabe experiments on rail heights &amp; what they produced. A lower rail height gives a truer bank than a higher one, an example of this is a Olhausen table, sorry I sell a model that competes with this nor did I ever set any record on one, they are mostly home tables, you don't see them in pool halls much. Yes I play on a Gold crown in my personal studio, I use 3 of them to teach on. That does not mean I am saying it is the best table, I use them because they were given to me period. I am tired of them and am in the process of selling all 3 of them, I have always felt Brunswick tables made the pockets too tough for the average player, the points are too sharp, they don't forgive a shot you burn down the rail hard. OK, if you want to have a world chamnpionship of 9 ball, that's a good table, but for Mom &amp; pop in the basement, no, they need easy 5" pockets so they can make balls, not miss balls. It saves table mfgrs money to just make one sized pocket like Diamond does, 4 3/4", you cant have 5". So they only make pockets for pro's. I just have problems with this, I am sorry. When the rail heigth gets a tad too high, it only works &amp; repeats properly when you bank softly to medium hard. If you bank hard, the cue ball forces its self under the rubber lip, then it is spit out with back spin, sort of like you would jump a wet watermellon seed from under your finger tip. Knowing this, the way I set the 10-11-12 rail banks was not being drawn into this trap, if you watch closely on my tapes, I jump the cue ball so it hits high up on the lip, which avoids the cb being forced down inside it, I retain proper running forward english on the cue ball, actually getting almost 20' free of no reisistance, all the others had to contend with. When the first 10 rail bank was filmed &amp; released on a 10', Byrne was the technical consultant on the film produced by Pat Fleming Accustats, Who sold 2 tapes, pool's greatest shots, and the greatest shots of the decade. Guess who had more shots featured than any other player, Scott Lee, Fred, sorry Virginia they did not make the tape, it was me. The world champion Billy Incardona was the MC, he described the first 10 rail shot he had ever seen, that I shot in Atlanta Billiards in Duluth, Ga, and It so impressed, Billy took the bait, hook &amp; bobber &amp; went right to the bottom of the lake with it, Billy spilled the beans on what my secret was &amp; exactally how I had done it. I love Billy, he is so cool. Yes that was the first 10 rail shot &amp; that is how I did do it. What Billy did not know, is that soon after that, I realized there was no way to hit 11 doing that, so I changed the technique totally &amp; soon learned a better way, the exact way I later hit 11 &amp; 12 with. The problem with pool, is do a neat trick, show everyone how it is done, &amp; tomorrow most every one who competes with you will try &amp; steal it from you &amp; is now claiming they have been doing this since they were a baby &amp; I can't break an egg. They do the same thing every time I reveal a new teaching theory that works, or publish a story. It's a long line of thieves. I cant prevent that, but I can delay that. Gerni was pushing me real hard at the time to prove to him why I could do this &amp; he could not, he was convinced I was cheating &amp; told me that. He said I had to be using a hot gimmick ball. I solved that, I waltzed into his home room on the back table in the private room, and got on his teaching table, a beautiful old table, but slow as a turtle, &amp; banged off a 10 rail shot on it using their house dog cue ball, then told the people who saw it to tell him about it when he came back in. He got the message. I wanted everyone thinking that was the method, &amp; wasting their time following the wrong path. It worked, and when I released 11, they were all caught with their pants down, and then 12 hit them &amp; they all left me alone &amp; just gave up &amp; said uncle,until now. You see I was not all that much more powerful than those before me, just smarter. The problem here is I said I have seen the top 6 bankers of all time &amp; when they banked they liked to smoke them in with firm hard speed, I never like to soft bank, unless I must for position. This becomes a real problem if you get on a table with high rails. It becomes impossible when you get on these 10 year old tables in pool halls that have never changed the rubber, and the rubber is deader than my brain tissue, and just as unbending. Oh freddie, cut &amp; paste that puppy fast, you can use it out of context &amp; have a ball. Yo Adrian, Fast just admitted he is brain dead, we got him now... On crapoo tables, You cant make a damn bank, nothing repeats, every speed, produces something different. Don't even get me started on bar boxes, trust me, you don't want to know, if I tell you I will then have a bounty on each ear. Then it even get's more weird, people dont realize not to sit on rails, but you see kids doing it all the time, they can weaken or even break the rail rubber loose from the wood &amp; it will bank screwy. How often does a pool hall tighten the rail bolts, most never, not until a new cloth goes on or somebody like me begins to bitch. Let a couple of rail bolts get loose &amp; all banks are now a mystery. I am constantly checking my rail bolts under my rails, the first time a bank goes weird, I am under there with my 9/l6th socket wrench. When you get a old table in a pool hall with a lot of play, in 10 years the places where the most balls are banked hard into, get dead, less lively, respond different on the places on the rail where people rarely bank. You can find some spots where the rubber is totally dead. Remember I said the first thing I do when I get on a new table is pull out my tape measure &amp; find out how wide the pockets are, If I plan on serious play, the 2nd thing I do is pull out my aluminum rail height guage, &amp; run down every inch of the rail, Sit on a rail with your butt, you can lower it in that place. If I find some low spots, then I know to avoid them. Come on, you know the the thing I am taling about, it looks like a L, surely all you guys carry one, don't you. It tell's you what Brunswick thinks the correct height should be for pool &amp; for Billiards. Finally some one woke up &amp; realized this did not produce the best bank, and sold the fact that their table banked better &amp; faster and that was true. K66, what in the hell does that mean, oh, my rails are K66, whip tee dippty de doo, what good is that, if the rubber compound is cheap, full of fillers &amp; your entire concept of rubber rails, or for Freedie, bumpers, is how cheap can you make them, then K66 means nothing, and the average player does not realize this. A standardized profile is nice, but it's the quality of the rubber you want to seek out, &amp; the Krauts make the best. Look, dont even go there, I am a Kraut, so I can call them Kraut's, OK&gt; Once you consider all of this, it is a damn wonder any of us ever makes a fargin bank. I love to bank, it is my 2nd best shot, but I go into some rooms with tables from hell, I don't fight bad tables. I just don't bank. I did a show not too long ago they had all brunswick sport kings that were 27 years old &amp; the rubber on them had never been changed. These were the original tables when the joint opened up. I found one table in play with every rail bolt laying on the floor, when they changed the cloth, they forgot to put them back in &amp; people had been banking on that table for a year &amp; never knew why they could not make a fargin bank. This is a true story, ask Rick Wright about it, he writes a little column in the NBN. At the first BCA worlds trick shot championship at the Riveria in Vegas, we had brand new Brunswick Gold Crowns, the same tables the 9 ball pro's were using up in the penthouse. You have the best table, the best mechanics, right, it's a world championship, so you expect everything to be perfect, right. I said to Mike Massey, this table banks funny, somethings not right, I would guess the mechanic never did properly tighten down the rail bolts. Mike tested it &amp; said Larry, you are right, so Mike tells Tom to call them back. Tom calls &amp; tells the guy this. 6 hrs later the guy shows up, I tell him what the problem is, he goes under there where I said the problem was, came out &amp; said it was tight, there is no problem with this table. I said how do you know, you show up to answer a complaint on a table, being played on by 10 world class billiard experts who know what they are doing, &amp; you come in here with no tools, You test it with your fingers &amp; you are telling me it's ok, why don't you come back with a socket wrench &amp; do the job right. I said you need to check all of the bolts. He looks at me with these little beady snake eyes &amp; says everything is fine, turns his back &amp; walks off. He comes back a hour later with a socket wrench, goes under there, I guess tightens that one bolt, comes up &amp; he goes, like I said before, there is no problem &amp; trots off again. One hour later, a rail bolt fell out of the table &amp; hit the floor. I went under there &amp; another bolt was hanging half out exposed. Ask Mike, he saw this. Even in a world championship, you can get a table that does not bank, &amp; it may not be your fault, it could be the moron who set it up. God help you if you ever tell a table mechanic he made a mistake, Lord almighty, can I have a Amen on that one brother. When I run into a poor table, playing pool, I'll probably play safe rather than bank. If it's a fine table, I'll always take the bank, if for me it is a high percentage shot. On the 27 year old tables, I just dropped all bank shots in my show &amp; did other things, I carry 275 shots with me, so I can adapt to any conditions I am hit with, I can do a show on the rug and floor of the joint if I have to. The first table I showed on at the BCA show in Vegas had a plywood slate &amp; was 7' &amp; sold for $275. I did no bank shots on that puppy, Max the Wonder Dog did bank in a few. My advice is this, know your equipment, dont fight what you are given, just adapt to it. The table is the same for you as it is for your opponent. If he gets a negative opinion &amp; begins to complain about this &amp; that causing him to miss, just smile, he just gave you a hugh edge. Many times, this can be the difference between you winning or losing, your attitude at the table. The guy having a fit about the bad rails out loud is a guy just looking for a way to lose. Just put him away nicely fast &amp; loose with a smile. Always whistle while you work, remember the 7 dwarfs in Snow White, be happy, pool is more fun that way.

Best Wishes, Fast Larry Guninger

bluewolf
02-25-2003, 06:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Fred knows how to bank...randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Do you use the diamond system for this or just go by 'feel'?

Rather than speed, I have been using oe to widen the bank and ie to narrow the bank with varying the amt of eng by how far I want to change the bank. Is this a wrong way to do it. If it is a perfect bank, I just use centerball. Oh yeah,on lots of them I use low to avoid a kiss. I use follow if they are not going to smooch to help with position. I am just starting so would like to hear here or pvt if I am going about this the wrong way.

btw, I do not use this or other stuff in matches that I am just beginning on unless it is my only shot and I dont have a safe.

Laura

02-25-2003, 10:13 PM
Dear Blue, very nice questions, my compliments:
You must first under stand you are dealing with a dinosaur, I am older than dirt, I have a great grand child. When I was playing pool,I had polio as a kid, my right leg became half the size of my left leg, there was no vaccine then to prevent it as it is now. I remember riding the streetcar to the pool hall for a nickle, and making a phone call for a nickle, or going into a store where half of the things for sale, were a nickle. For a nickle I could mail a letter &amp; two postcards. You could buy a new car for $600, but that was now outlawed, nobody could buy a new car, nobody. Gas was 10 cents a gallon, but you could not go buy gas anywhere. If you pulled into a gas station &amp; said fill it up, they said no bub, hit the road. If you offered them $200 bucks for a tank full, they would call the police &amp; have you arrested. You had to go to the government, proved you worked, they gave you cupons for just enough gas to get you to &amp; from work. You only got gas for cupons, not for money. If you got caught out on a Sunday jolly ride, you were downtown talking to the man with a pig light shinning in your face. You could not buy tires for your car, and could only have a single spare. If they were bare down to the cords, you had to run on them for at least three more years. If you got a hole in the tire, you had to just keep patching it, or go on foot or ride the streetcar. If somebody reported you that you had a extra spare tire hidden in your garage, they would come in, arrest you &amp; take you to jail. If you were Japanese, you were sent to a US concentration camp. When I was born, my Mom had a difficult delivery, she almost bled to death. She remembers the nurse telling the Doctor, if we don't give her a transfusion now, she wont make it, and the Doctor saying, we are out of blood, and what little we have, we can't spare it. She understood, &amp; prepared to die in peace &amp; in dignity, all the blood was going to the brave young men in a life or death struggle that would determine if the world slipped into a new dark age &amp; the forces of the dark side won, or we entered a new age of freedom and peace for all. My Mom was in that hospital for over a month, and it took her a year to build back her blood &amp; her strength, but people from Osawatomie are tougher than squirrels, it takes a lot to kill one of them, they die real hard. They never give up, my mom taught me that, and that is where I got that saying from I sign off with, if my mom did not believe in that, I would not be here today. Back to the story,If you had a extra spare in your car or garage, you had to turn it over to the government. In my day grass was mowed and coke came in a brown bottle at the soda stand. Aids were the helpers in the school principles office. I speak five languages, and have no desire now to learn a new one. I am a sort of a treckie, yes I have gone to some conventions to meet Tiberius &amp; Scottie &amp; Spock, when they actually used to attend them. No I did not attend wearing a full dress Federation uniform, no I cant do that finger spread spock does, busted up my hand in Rapid City, it's a wonder my hand now still even works. Yes I tried to learn &amp; speak klingon, I have been in China several times, saying a month on each trip, going everywhere there. I have been doing that since the very early 80's. I tried hard to learn &amp; speak Chinese, trust me, Klingnon is easier. I don't see how any one can ever learn to speak either of those languages unless they were born there &amp; grew up there. I also have no desire to learn this new teckie text code thing you guys have going on. I think it is a very cool idea, now your parents dont have a clue what you are planning to do this Friday night. The
wonder dogs speak english, they understand &amp; comprehend about every 3rd word I say, plus they have full sentences totally memorized &amp; understand what they mean. It has gotten so bad, that If I say to my wife, honey, lets get in the car &amp; drive up to Vito's and get some nice clams, I am having a clam attack. All 4 dogs go totally fargin ape, they are all up &amp; standing at the front door barking their heads off. I tried to say it in German, but Max being a Deustchlander Hund still showed up at the door. Now I say it in Spanish and that works, they just look at me &amp; cock their heads, like, watta did he say dude? This isn't going to last long, some really lovely nice Mexican people just moved in next door, they put in a big pool, during the summer the back yard looks like a Cheech &amp; Chong movie set, the last time I saw that many Mexicians in one place, it was in a John Wayne movie &amp; they were running over the wall of the alamo. So old Wonder Dog goes out there all day long, puts his nose to the fence, &amp; just listens to all the rattle. It aint gonna be long before when he does his gig, I'll have to said Wonder, Made the una bolla aqui, the dose bolla here, da tres bolla here, hit da quarto ball there. When you guys write in these codes, with these little numbers, I2l &amp; stuff like that, I dont have a clue what that stuff means. So if you ever send me a private email &amp; you want me to respond, give me a break, write in plain English, no codes please. On the board, code all you want, I look at very little of this any way, I mostly respond only if some body asks me to. I'm a old guy, give me a break here. Back to blue, Some of your banking questions are a little confusing, but if position can be ignored, all I have to do is bank in the ball, I bank firm, I don't smoke the shot, but it is firm, not soft &amp; I always then use low english, you see hitting almost draw, produces follow. English reverses it self, it is like a clock, one gear moves left, moving another gear right. So to get a gear to move right, you have to move a gear left. English transfers. You want the object ball in a bank to have follow english on it, you want it to run, to produce that, you put draw on the cue ball. If you are banking a object ball 3 rails, you of course want running english on the OB, now pretend to stroke the OB, if you were just hitting the OB only, you determine that would be right english, great, now hit the CB with left english, and that transferes right running english to the OB. Look, this stuff can drive you bonkers, so here is how you do it, you are going to forget everything I just taught you by tomorrow &amp; you get to the table &amp; go what did Fast say to do. Was it left, was it right? Here is how you handle any situation involving english &amp; throw when you cant remember what to do. "The Fast Method, when in doubt, determine what makes sense, what is the logicaly thing to do, then do just the opposite of that, and you will be right 99% of the time. Blue, this single tip, was worth the price of admission, it will bail your tail out so many times, you will name your next firstborn after me.
You ask, do I use the Diamond system, do you want the friggin truth, or do you want me to impress Freddie. If you dont want the truth, for God's sake, fast forward immediately &amp; don't read any more of this blasphemy. Proceed directly to the Sid Vicious post, his teaching is more your speed &amp; on your wave length.
Do I use the Diamond system, yes &amp; no. Do I understand it, yes, do I teach it, yes. When you run into a teacher making a big deal out of the Diamond system, what you have is somebody trying to impress you on what a great guru they are, they can BS you into tomorrow on this subject. The Diamond system is extremely important in Billiards, so so in pool. Let us first examine the 2 greatest billiard players of all time, (l) Willie Hoppe, who I teach, who I have posted IMHO, OH NO, YOU HAVE ME NOW USING THIS TECHI CODE, was the greatest cueist of all time. If so, then Hoppe had to be an expert on the Diamond system, right, wrong. He never used it, he played by feel. When he wrote &amp; produced the greatest pool book of all time in l94l, Billiards as it should be played, he put in a large section going into great detail what the Diamond system was &amp; how it worked. It was great, &amp; most of that data was correct.
Hoppe never wrote a word of it. It all came from Byron Schoeman, the director of public relations of the Billiard Association of America. Look I know this is hard to believe, but if you ever run into Byrne or Shamos, ask them, they will confirm this is true. Who does 2/3rd's of the world think is the greatest cueist of all time, ask any one in Europe, there is no debate, Raymound Cuelemans, won over 100 major events, broke almost all of Hoppes records. Are you sitting down, when he won his first world title, he did not have a clue what the Diamond system was. Yes he uses it now. Go down under mate, and ask them who was the greatest cueist of all time, no worry, it was Walter Lindgrum, and he played English Billiards, &amp; he did not use the Diamond system either. If you tied me to a tree &amp; began to pull out teeth with a pair of pliars until I came clean &amp; really told you the truth who of the 3 was really the man, I would have to say, go down under mate, now untie me &amp; let's put a shrimp on the barbie, I am starved. I have stated already several times, my teaching method is to teach you how it is done mechnically, then take that away from you &amp; teach you how to do the same thing by feel. Pool is a feel game, not a mechnical game. Losers play by, systems, the great ones play by feel, one last example of this, to end this debate, Sang Lee, I rest my case.
I teach; you only use the Diamond system to line up the shot, to give you a zone to hit into, a narrow zone, then you turn the shot over to your cpu, it will take into account all the dozens of variables, cloth speed changing, humidity &amp; temperature changing, on &amp; on, &amp; your cpu will find &amp; hit the perfect spot to hit the shot. You have to learn to just see it, feel it, do it, I am telling you, that is all there is to it, it is nothing but a leap of faith. When a student comes to me, in lesson one I give him a diagram of a pool table that has marked on it every diamond &amp; it's number. He must memorize this, and every time I see him, I drill him by walking to different diamonds around the table &amp; asking him, what diamond # is this. I keep doing this, until he does it right. If he refuses to do this, I drop him as a student, he is not serious, or worthy, I don't need his money, or his badmouth later. We must establish a forum between us on how we communicate, and if I say hit diamond two with normal running english, I don't have time to explain to you every time what this means. I teach a very limited Diamond system to pool players, because if I taught it all to them, next week they will have forgot 90% of it, and they will never use 90% of it. You don't need all of it, unless you become a serious 3 cushion player. To do this, is nothing but a waste of the pool players time &amp; money, and a giant ego trip by the teacher. I teach them the 10% they will use &amp; need &amp; remember. If the player is very advanced or a pro, then I might go deeper into it if he pushes. Soon even apa 4's will be going 3 rails &amp; kicking in balls off of the rails just like they see Efren do on TV. I teach them tracks, how to transfer tracks, how to juice the ball to get back on a track that does not exist. Even with me teaching only 10% of what I know, it is still probably 50% more than what these other yo yo's know &amp; teach, if all that they do is play &amp; teach pool. If they actually play &amp; teach 3 cushion, then they will know, and they will agree with every word I have just written, Oh Fast, there you go dreaming again, you know if you get 10 pool players together, none of them can agree to use blue or green chalk, get 10 pool experts together, none of them can agree if black is white, or the sky is blue or gray. Just because you are a 3 cushion guy, looking down your nose at those poor lost souls who know only pool, SHAME ON YOU FAST. Sorry, I forgot my roots for a while, let me get down off of my perch. Old Fatty used to say, a billiard player is nuttin but a pool bum dressed up like a penguin. Puttin a pool player in a tux, is like puttin whipped cream on a hot dog, ah yes....WILLIE MOSS SCONE E, how can he ever win, Mosss scone E, don't get me started on Fatty please. There it is Blue, &amp; 5 gets you 8, 90% of you people either don't understand a word of this, or if you do, you now can't deal with it. It is easier on you to just say I don't no nuttin, den youse dont have to learn nuttin new, ask Sid, he will explain dis to you.
Learn to bank blue, Fast say's it's easy, and the more you bank, the better you get at it. Dont duck, every time a bank shot comes up. Shoot straight, innovate, and never give up, no matter how desperate the situation may be. Best Wishes, Fast Larry Guninger

bluewolf
02-26-2003, 07:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> Dear Blue, very nice questions, my compliments:

Back to blue, Some of your banking questions are a little confusing, but if position can be ignored, all I have to do is bank in the ball, I bank firm, I don't smoke the shot, but it is firm, not soft &amp; I always then use low english, you see hitting almost draw, produces follow. English reverses it self, it is like a clock, one gear moves left, moving another gear right. So to get a gear to move right, you have to move a gear left. English transfers. Method, when in doubt, determine what makes sense, what is the logicaly thing to do, then do just the opposite of that, and you will be right 99% of the time. Blue, this single tip, was worth the price of admission, it will bail your tail out so many times, you will name your next firstborn after me.
You ask, do I use the Diamond system, do you want the friggin truth, or do you want me to impress Freddie. If you dont want the truth, for God's sake, fast forward immediately &amp; don't read any more of this blasphemy. Proceed directly to the Sid Vicious post, his teaching is more your speed &amp; on your wave length.
Do I use the Diamond system, yes &amp; no. Do I understand it, yes, do I teach it, yes. When you run into a teacher making a big deal out of the Diamond system, what you have is somebody trying to impress you on what a great guru they are, they can BS you into tomorrow on this subject. The Diamond system is extremely important in Billiards, so so in pool. I have stated already several times, my teaching method is to teach you how it is done mechnically, then take that away from you &amp; teach you how to do the same thing by feel. Pool is a feel game, not a mechnical game. Losers play by, systems, the great ones play by feel,.I teach; you only use the Diamond system to line up the shot, to give you a zone to hit into, a narrow zone, then you turn the shot over to your cpu, it will take into account all the dozens of variables, cloth speed changing, humidity &amp; temperature changing, on &amp; on, &amp; your cpu will find &amp; hit the perfect spot to hit the shot. You have to learn to just see it, feel it, do it, I am telling you, that is all there is to it, it is nothing but a leap of faith. There it is Blue, &amp; 5 gets you 8, 90% of you people either don't understand a word of this, or if you do, you now can't deal with it. It is easier on you to just say I don't no nuttin, den youse dont have to learn nuttin new, ask Sid, he will explain dis to you.
Learn to bank blue, Fast say's it's easy, and the more you bank, the better you get at it. Dont duck, every time a bank shot comes up. Shoot straight, innovate, and never give up, no matter how desperate the situation may be. Best Wishes, Fast Larry Guninger <hr /></blockquote>

oe = outside english
ie = inside english
cb = cue ball
ob = object ball

Thanks Larry. What I understand about english is that it works like sailing a boat. If you push the tiller to the right, the boat goes left. If you strike the cb on the right, the cue spins away from the point it is struck, causing it to go left or vice versa. If you hit the cb on the bottom it sets up a gear effect when hitting the ob causing it to go in the opposit direction(top). When you hit the cb on the left, it goes right, then when it strikes the ob, they stick for an instant causing the ob to travel away from the side of the ball it is struck on momentarily. Now I hope I got that right.

I understand it when I look at the balls, just a matter of whether I got it right on paper or not. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

NOw, when I started pool, my apa7 hubbie wanted to teach me this diamond system, you know-divid this by one half and half again and I screamed 'get that stuff away from me!!'. Well now it does not confuse me and i do not scream, but i do not like it still.

I guess I would learn it if I had to but I would rather just use the diamonds for reference and aim points and learn the banks by trial and error. So for instance;;

I am banking from just in front of the side to the left corner bottom pocket. The ob is at the first diamond from the side pocket (about 4 in in front of rail) so I do not have a perfect angle in angle out situation. So I attempt to put a slight cut, say a 1/4 hit with oe to widen the angle. If the shot goes too wide (hits the end rail) then I applied too much oe and I try it again with a little less. If it goes too short,(falls to the right of the pocket on the long rail) then I did not put enough oe and I try a little more.

If I want to narrow the angle, then I would go through the same procedure with ie.

This is what I mean by trial and error, trying a shot and if it does not go in, try to figure out why and do the correction.

I work more on cuts, way more, than banks but i do work on these occasionally so that when i get to be an apa 4-5, i will be able to do them.

When doing kicks, I know even less but figure when I watch 'only kicks' again I might do better. for now, if I have a kick in a game, I just look at the angle and guess, which is crude so I do not get more than 50%, but they seem to have a wider margin of error than a bank I am thinking because I get more of them right.

Laura

but if my logic is flawed in some way then i would like to know about it.

Fred Agnir
02-26-2003, 07:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> I also have no desire to learn this new teckie text code thing you guys have going on. <hr /></blockquote>
That's unfortunate. It's the best tool on pool and billiards on the internet. I would think that you would want to add it to your library knowledge. You said we couldn't teach you anything. This is the one thing we can, and you'll be glad to learn it. Can we hear from some other old dogs out there that have been very happy to learn to use the Wei Table?


[ QUOTE ]
You ask, do I use the Diamond system, do you want the friggin truth, or do you want me to impress Freddie.<hr /></blockquote>
Keep me out of your deluded fantasies.


[ QUOTE ]
There it is Blue, &amp; 5 gets you 8, 90% of you people either don't understand a word of this, or if you do, you now can't deal <hr /></blockquote>
90% of us do understand, mostly agree with you, and have shared these same concepts since this board began (and long before, as well). Now what?

Fred

bluewolf
02-26-2003, 07:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> I also have no desire to learn this new teckie text code thing you guys have going on. <hr /></blockquote>
That's unfortunate. It's the best tool on pool and billiards on the internet. I would think that you would want to add it to your library knowledge. You said we couldn't teach you anything. This is the one thing we can, and you'll be glad to learn it. Can we hear from some other old dogs out there that have been very happy to learn to use the Wei Table?

<font color="blue"> </font color> I need to learn that too.
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
There it is Blue, &amp; 5 gets you 8, 90% of you people either don't understand a word of this, or if you do, you now can't deal <hr /></blockquote>

90% of us do understand, mostly agree with you, and have shared these same concepts since this board began (and long before, as well). Now what?
Fred <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> </font color> I generally skip those statements and go right for the pool 'meat',

Laura

cycopath
02-26-2003, 11:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> When you guys write in these codes, with these little numbers, I2l &amp; stuff like that, I dont have a clue what that stuff means.<hr /></blockquote>1 +H1Nk +hi$ 15 T3h C0DE l@rrY i$ +4LK1n9 4B0U+.

02-26-2003, 02:45 PM
Oh Freedie, some how I just knew you that you were going to jump in here, and your expert analysis of what I tried to teach here was so off base, I guess if you cant find it in your BCA teaching manual, then it has to be herasay? So you tell everyone I am operating in a delusion and what I write is a fantasy. I love it when you do this, this is so cool, keep cutting &amp; pasting stuff I say &amp; use them totally out of the context of the message. What I said is I speak 5 languages and have no desire to learn a 6th, but you chose to not cut &amp; paste that didn't you. I am sick of your low rent pot shots at trying to make me look like a bozo. Freedie, throw mud on me, I throw mud on you, mud slings in both directions. Fast Larry

Fred Agnir
02-26-2003, 03:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> Oh Freedie, some how I just knew you that you were going to jump in here, and your expert analysis of what I tried to teach here was so off base, I guess if you cant find it in your BCA teaching manual, then it has to be herasay? So you tell everyone I am operating in a delusion and what I write is a fantasy. I love it when you do this, this is so cool, keep cutting &amp; pasting stuff I say &amp; use them totally out of the context of the message. What I said is I speak 5 languages and have no desire to learn a 6th, but you chose to not cut &amp; paste that didn't you. I am sick of your low rent pot shots at trying to make me look like a bozo. Freedie, throw mud on me, I throw mud on you, mud slings in both directions. Fast Larry <hr /></blockquote>
Thanks for once again not bothering to read my post. You might have seen that I didn't say one thing about how you teach (which once again I will say I probably agree with 100%). I see you are having some kind of argument with me, but I still have no idea what you think I said.

And again, for the umpteenth time, I have no BCA teaching manual.

Fred &lt;~~~ wondering why I would have a BCA teaching manual

02-26-2003, 05:14 PM
Dear Fred, I am glad you agree with what I said on the banks, any one who can play a lick, or teach a lick, will. I am not saying I am breaking any new ground here, Maurice Daly taught this stuff to Willie Hoppe in l896. The problem we have as teachers, is we all know this stuff, it is so easy to understand for us. The trap we can get into is thinking because we give it to them correctly, so plainly they will grasp it &amp; immediately go away with this knowledge tatooed to the inside of their eyelids. It is so easy to talk over their head, teach too fast, everyone must be taught at a different speed, I teach Billy Joe Bob from hahira, Ga at slow speed, warp 1. Guido Gambuchii from NYC, I teach at warp 7. I was a sales &amp; marketing manager for very large companies, my job was to know how you think &amp; process new info. When you finish a lesson, the student will have forgotten 90% of what you taught him on the Diamond system before he even get's home. Within 48 hrs he now forgets 50% of the 10% he actually hung on to. Half of what you taught him, he really did not understand, he just acted like he did, if you don't test him as you go along, you begin to lose him. This is why I hate to do group lessons, you dont have time to do this. Fred, his brain is programed to ignore what you are teaching until he has heard it 7 times, or you made him read the text of the lesson 7 times. All of you are in this same trap, and every one of your students. If you are teaching with a cam corder like I do, then you are not. My student goes home with the tape, then revisits the lesson again &amp; again, &amp; soon that new data sticks &amp; becomes permanant. This why my student progress 4 times faster than your's do, and in reality you are now charging them double what I charge, it's talking them 4 times longer, so a student in reality pays 8 times more for you to teach him than I do, and he ends up with the same data on how to bank. Dont even begin to argue with me on this, because every other major sport on earth understands this, the only one that does not is pool. They think the right way to learn to play pool is to hang around Harry Da Horse, No Neck Nelson Jake da Snake &amp; watch them gamble at one pocket. These people I do not teach, nor are them welcome in my school. They are hopeless, because every one of them is a expert &amp; knows all of the answers in advance. I hope all of them joins your school. Group lessons, I hate them worse than choking a straight in 9 ball for da cheeze. I used to teach 8 at a table, and have two tables going on at the same time, 16 players in one hour. I soon learned, the demand for what I had, was far greater than the time I had to offer. There was only two solutions, jack my price up there where you guys are and run 75% of them off, or be very selective in who I let in. I went that direction, which from a financial view was really dumb. Read my posts, this is not my main activity in life, I do many other things I make a lot of money on, I only teach, because I love to. Do not view me as your competitor, I am not. I only came on this board, because several people reading you, asked me to. I said I don't want to, if I post my views, all hell is going to break loose. They pushed, I did, and the rest is history. Today my limit to teach in a group lesson is now 4, beyond 4, bring in 400, It is now a clinic, I preach to the crowd. What you got from me is the Fast Larry Method, when you forget what Fred taught you on how the bank works, determine what is logical, then do the exact opposite. Now the guy can never forget or not understand what you taught him, &amp; when he get's confused, he makes the right decision every single time. So you see, I will share data &amp; some of my teaching methods, and if you are smart, you will steal this one, and now call it the Freedie Method, and yeah, of course, dont even bother, I know, you have been using that method since you were a baby, sure you have. I teach slow, because no one graduates from the 3rd grade until they prove to me they understand what was taught there. Then &amp; only then, can they advance to the 4th grade, &amp; on &amp; on. Here was a hugh tip for free, I hope you guys are smart enough to grab it &amp; run. Fred, allow me to apologize for saying there is nothing you can ever teach me, that was very ignorant &amp; uncalled for. There was a simple case of mis taken identity here, and I was being slandered badly, I got pissed &amp; struck back. Let it ride, let's just start over, I can do that, if you can do that. I have read your posts, you are obviously a very smart &amp; intelligent person, but not smart enough to pull me out on my draw secrets so you could slice &amp; dice me. Life would be sweet if I can post my opinions, you post yours, and let the players decide which one to use. I am in no contest here, I dont seek your title as head board guru, I dont even seek your approval or your respect. I dont want a single one of your students, I already have more students than I can handle, send your overflow down to Sid in Dallas, not to me. If you want to extend your sincere friendship to me, this I will accept, just dont try &amp; teach that new techi net code crap to me, dont even go there. Now youse guys can post Fast Larry is a bum &amp; dis bum say's dee old barefoot Socrates dont no nuttin, do it in that damn code lingo, &amp; I wont have a clue youse guys are bashing me no mo. Yo BoZo, let me tell you where youse guys can put dis new code, da sun does not shine dare bubba. Best Wishes, Fast Larry Guninger

bluewolf
02-26-2003, 05:35 PM
A great instructor is a gift. There are few really great ones, imo and more good ones and even more bad ones. But when I receive instruction from a great one, I have indeed discovered a pot of gold /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura

Tom_In_Cincy
02-26-2003, 05:45 PM
Dear Fast Larry, sorry for the misconception that you were a teacher of groups. You always include a history lesson and refer to the old pool players of the 50s and 60s.. and some of the ones from the Johnson City Jasco era, these stories are fine, but I think you need to expand on them. They are too short. I know you said you went to them, did you ever see the Cincy native Joey Speath? he was a great banker and One pocket player.. I think he was close to winning the "all around" championship once. His son Gary Speath was a good player also.. but more of a Semi-Pro.. and mostly played tournaments close to Cincy. Both players have had a lot of stories related to their pool prowness. There is another well known player from Cincy called Donnie Anderson.. he won some serious BANK championships in the 60s and 70s.. he still hustles little boys and girls here. I like the idea of one on one instructions, that's the way I teach and coach those that ask or accept my offer. I don't charge, I don't have the extensive background that most instructors do. I have only been playing for 38 years and just know a little about the game. Just tournaments and leagues. I do run tournaments and leagues, and have found that it is very exciting. I like knowing the rules also, I think its an advantage. I also think I am capable of spotting someone's "FLAWS" just by watching them play. But, I don't claim to be a Doctor of Pool patients. I can help some of them.. and they are very appreciative. I took last year off from leagues to regain what I percieved as a drop in my skill level. I needed to practice more and play in more tournaments. My competition status was not there.. I needed to do something drastic. No leagues and just practice helped a lot. Do you compete at all? anymore? I started playing on a league a few weeks ago and I really enjoy it. There are 4 teams with 3 players on a team. We play each other 4 times over a 4 week period. Its 8 ball, not my favorite, on bar boxes.. not my favorite.. either. but the competition is great. All the players on this league are very experienced and anyone can win against anyone anytime.. You have to keep on your toes all the time.. I like that.. and its with players that I have been playing against for the last 10 years.. all very skilled. Enough for now.. I needed to vent a little, I always like Fred's replies. and was wondering if you ever read them? Fred is very knowledgable and a good person, Fred has been posting on this friendly site for about 4 years or so.. if you really want to stir up some emotions.. I suggest going to RSB or ASP newsgroups, if you can figure out how to do that.. or go to playpool.com and look at their forum.. the is a guy named 'd0wt0wn' there that can teach you things about pool that you may have fogoten.. Please don't take this wrong, but I think you ought to lighten up on Fred.. he's having a bad winter up north.. and is probably jealous of your Atlanta GA weather.

02-26-2003, 07:33 PM
Dear Tom In Cincy:
Thank you for the lovely note, any advice sent to me in friendship, will always be considered. Constructive criticism sent to me in private is always welcome, my email is fastlarry@earthlink.net. Post on the world wide web you think I stink and I am a bum, I get pissed. This entire thing was a giant case of mistaken identity, I changed my name, a lot of people did not know who I am or was. I dont ever pretend to be the main guru, read my posts, I have written that I know nothing. So much of what I have said has been screwed around. Should I lighten up on Fred, I just this minute read your comment on this, and if you check, you will see a hour earlier I apologized to him saying what I said was ignorant, and this has nothing to do with what you are telling me now.
I had so many people coming at me, and my problem is, I dont know who any of them are. I dont know if he is some bozo who cant run 3 balls, or if he is a world class instructor. Slowly I am begining to sort some of this out. You kick around many questions, I would rather give you a private response, so do email me &amp; I will respond back to you sir.
Your question, do I compete, I have been crippled for l l/2 hrs, the doctors gave me a total complete medicial disability. I could handly walk. During this time, I did not hit a ball, teach a lesson, or earn a dime. I am now in the process of trying to make a come back &amp; go back to work. I had a stroke, and a dozen other things piled up behind it. My A game is gone forever, I will never compete again, nor do feats of strength on a pool table. What I can &amp; will do well, is teach, and travel &amp; do pool shows &amp; exhibitions. Wonder Dog is in great health, he plays pool also. Thanks for the thought, Best Wishes, Fast Larry Guninger, check in on www.fastlarrypool.com (http://www.fastlarrypool.com)

02-26-2003, 09:15 PM
Dear Tom in Cincy, forgot to answer a question, you read about where I said I had the priviledge to see or play the top 6 bankers in history, you asked about your home town boy, he is one of the 6 I refered to, I did not name the 6, because this will only break out into a hugh argument, Old Fast said Fatty &amp; the Knoxville Bear were great bankers, he dont no S****. This just goes no where. What I am learning here, is the less you say, the better they like it. I hit one of the top 5 greatest shots of all time, on a 9' &amp; l0' table, it is on tape, I can send it to you, it is two 11 rail banks hit back to back one handed. That alone should have me on everyone's top 10 list of the greatest bankers of all time, but my name will never ever appear on any such list, and that does not bother me. No will I ever post what I think my list is, because if I do, I have to put me on there, and then holy S***, here they all come again. This is a great question and a great post, why dont you simply post the question, you tell me, who the 10 greatest bankers of all time were. I wont go near that puppy, but if they chime in, what you will learn will astound you. This can be a very good topic for everyone. You ask for another story, and this time you want it longer, you want the entire story. Man, do you realize the heat I am catching for doing what I am doing, people are calling me ugly names &amp; to shut up my mouth. the problem is today, we have no time, nobody does, too much is going on, too much to do. People insist I must teach them how to play like Mosconi in one hour or I am a bum. We are being squeezed into sound bites. Politicians realize to get on TV, they must now speak in short precise sound bites, that is why you dont learn a GD thing from them nor do they ever say a GD thing worth listening to. At one point I wrote for 6 different magazines, but none in the top 2. The editors said I cant print that instructional piece, it is too long, cut it down to one paragraph &amp; it can go. I said to them, I cant teach anything worthwhile in one paragraph. They said I dont care, this is all the space you get. So I tried to write an instructional article, &amp; it came off looking like something Ewa publishes, it said nothing, taught nothing. Ok, here it is, shoot straight, innovate, and never give up. Whooop dee doo da. So I figured if they did not give a damn about you, neither did I, so I refused to publish any more instruction &amp; just sent in trick shots only. There is so little going on in pool, BD, Billiards Digest from the beginning only published every other month, because they felt there was nothing to report on, so why waste the paper. They were pressured to go monthly, and I bet now they wished they stayed bi monthly. You see when you go monthly, you double your revenue, the revenue is in the ads the big mfgrs buy from them and not from the players who buy subscriptions. More on that later. You only need to subscribe to one magazine, Billiards Digest, everything you need to know about is in there, the other 2 just repeat &amp; say the same thing, cover the same thing. BD has the best writers, the best instruction. Ok, you're saying now, did they pay you to say that, hell no, they cut off my free subscription two years ago and I have not read a single issue since then. I dont have a clue what they are writing about now. All I know is it's the best magazine, period, IMHO. I went to the other rag, told them what was wrong with their instructional articles, tactfully &amp; sugar coating it as much as I could and suggested I could start a new concept, I would write a new how to, but actually teach it it in enough detail where it would work and have value. I said the problem with your magazine, is it has no content, it is a magazine of nothing but mfgrs ads, &amp; you sprinkle in here &amp; there these little brief pro parables that dont teach S*** &amp; are not worth a
s***. I said, I am going to need more than a page to do what I want to do. Their answer was, by the editor, we have too much content now, we dont want any more, we would like to have less. We have no plans to expand our instructional content. Honest to God, that is exactly quote what the man said. I dared suggest he could spend a little money to advance the game &amp; help the players learn more which would create more interest &amp; increase more table time in the rooms &amp; they would buy more cues, oh jees, I can go on &amp; on &amp; on. Go get his magazine, tear out every ad, now that the economy is in the toilet, and pool is also, the ads before 9ll were 8 times more than today, gone are l0 full page color ads, their revenue monthly must have dropped 20 grand, but toss every page that is an ad. If the page is a half story, half ad, cut it in half , toss the add part. Then see what is left, you're lucky to be holding 6 pages, then the light bulb hits you, this is nothing but a magazine of ads, it's mission is to sell ads, they dont give a S*** about the players or if we learn anything. Stop now, I am not talking about BD, the other rag. Want proof, go get this months copy of Golf Digest, take it to the same test, tear out &amp; toss all the ads, how much content do you have, you will be stunned, floored. Then you will realize how bad these people have been hoseing you. This is why this board exists and is so popular, you people are starved to death, for knowledge &amp; for the right way to play. You sure are not getting it in the magazine, because they would rather run a ad that makes money, than waste space teaching you. You will note, in Golf, in Golf Digest, you dont find any of these one paragraph teaching wastelands, you do find, at least 3 teachers, who actually teach something, and use 3 pages doing it &amp; going into great detail. You get pictures, diagrams, every thing you need. When I tried to explain this to the pool rag, he thought I was nuts. I said if you do this, this can put you on a new plateau, you can now be a level above the #l mag, and no longer be #2. Their concept was no you are wrong, we are no 1, we are already getting every ad from every mfgr out there who runs ads, spending money for 3 more pages, wont increase our revenue by one dime, or at least that is how they thought at the time. Read their corporate filings, it's public record, and if you look in the fine print, they usually publish this in the front of their own magazine. They sell about l2,000 copies a month, give away about 3,000 to insiders. They try &amp; tell you 45,000,000 people play pool, and they only have 12,000 people who subscribe? Hello MCFly, knock knock, something is big time wrong here, isn't it. Go into 50 pool halls anywhere, and then tell me how many has any pool magazine for sale on the counter where you check in. Somethings big time wrong here.....You guys are in the friggin dark, I am telling you. OK, you want a story from the past, and you want all of it, not a piece of it, how about something from over a half century ago, the name of the story &amp; the post will be "the fat man goes through the floor, by Fast Larry. Just for you my friend, you asked for it, you get it. It will be up tomorrow. Maybe, probably when BD reads what I just wrote, I wont be surprised they dont pull my friggin plug, so if you never hear from me ever again, there is the rest of the story. There is a big sign over my desk, it says, I must be a mushroom, because all they do is feed me Bull S*** and keep me in the dark. Best Wishes, Fast Larry Guninger

Scott Lee
02-26-2003, 09:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> Man, do you realize the heat I am catching for doing what I am doing, people are calling me ugly names &amp; to shut up my mouth. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> </font color> Who are these people, Larry? I don't know anybody here who has done that.


<hr /></blockquote> So I tried to write an instructional article, &amp; it came off looking like something Ewa publishes, it said nothing, taught nothing.

Best Wishes, Fast Larry Guninger

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> </font color> Nice...Larry! Anyone else you'd like to slander in public?

Scott Lee

02-26-2003, 11:38 PM
Dear Scott, every comment you have made on just about every thing I have said has been a slam and a cheap shot at me. Am I going to slander you back, no, I did a post that explained our situation &amp; said if anybody ever said anything bad about you, I would argue with them. I guess you missed it, or read &amp; ignored it &amp; just enjoy the witch hunt, what ever, good hunting. Life is too short to fight with you. Fast Larry

Scott Lee
02-27-2003, 04:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> Dear Scott, every comment you have made on just about every thing I have said has been a slam and a cheap shot at me.

Fast Larry <hr /></blockquote>

Please explain to me how everything I have said about you is a slam or a cheap shot! Back up what you say, Larry.
You denigrate Ewa's book and articles, and I pointed out that it wasn't very smart or nice to do so. How is that a slam or a cheap shot? Like I said in a previous post (which you apparently didn't read either), I have never taken exception with anything you've said, until you posted about using your legs on the break. You said it was ludicrous and stupid not to...and I said that there were certainly other ways to accomplish the task (which you agreed with in a later post on the same thread). A slam? Hardly. A cheap shot? Doubtful. A deserved response? Absolutely, imo.

Fred Agnir
02-27-2003, 07:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
. I dont know if (Fred) is some bozo who cant run 3 balls, or if he is a world class instructor<hr /></blockquote>
I'll set it straight. I realize you've mixed me up with someone else from the start, so here it goes:

I, Fred Agnir am a World Class Bozo who can run 4 balls occassionally, and am not an instructor.


Hope this helps,

Fred

Fred Agnir
02-27-2003, 08:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> All of you are in this same trap, and every one of your students. If you are teaching with a cam corder like I do, then you are not. <hr /></blockquote>
I would hope that all competent teachers use video cameras. So, we agree yet again.


[ QUOTE ]
I only came on this board, because several people reading you, asked me to. I said I don't want to, if I post my views, all hell is going to break loose.<hr /></blockquote>
Since most all of your views I agree with, what people are you talking about? I don't even know if there was one thing I actually disagree with, as far as your teaching methods go.
[ QUOTE ]
Fred, allow me to apologize for saying there is nothing you can ever teach me, that was very ignorant &amp; uncalled for.<hr /></blockquote>
Apology graciously accepted.
[ QUOTE ]
I have read your posts, you are obviously a very smart &amp; intelligent person, but not smart enough to pull me out on my draw secrets so you could slice &amp; dice me.<hr /></blockquote>
I'm not looking for secrets. Just discussions. If you don't want to share your secret, I don't blame you at all. Hopefully, you'll be at Valley Forge so I can learn from you.

[ QUOTE ]
I am in no contest here, I dont seek your title as head board guru...<hr /></blockquote>
I think someone's been lying to you about me.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont want a single one of your students, <hr /></blockquote>
And this proves it. I don't have students Larry. I am not a professional instructor.

Fred

bluewolf
02-27-2003, 09:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
. I dont know if (Fred) is some bozo who cant run 3 balls, or if he is a world class instructor<hr /></blockquote>
I'll set it straight. I realize you've mixed me up with someone else from the start, so here it goes:

I, Fred Agnir am a World Class Bozo who can run 4 balls occassionally, and am not an instructor.


Hope this helps,

Fred
<hr /></blockquote>

Fred is smart
Handsome
Nice
Apa 7

Laura

bluewolf
02-27-2003, 09:49 AM
The players here are three groups:

A players
APA 7s
APA 6 and below

We have a number of As and apa7 equivalents (some of which are also A), a few pros who post here, although some of them do not give their name, a few semi pro women as well.

Sure gives someone like me role models and lots of good stuff to learn /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura

landshark1002000
02-28-2003, 03:09 AM
Hi Scott:
As a writer, I can say from experience that most short instructional articles (500 words or less) can only teach one simple idea. Writers trying to express complex ideas either need a longer format or must instead use a series of articles in order to clearly develop their ideas.

The greatest challenge when writing in short format is to avoid over-simplifying. The page runs out so quickly that writers find themselves editting examples, cutting analogies and emphasizing "feel-good", "this-is-easy-for-beginners-too" comments.

In book-length format it's easy to tackle big, complex ideas because you have pages and pages of opportunities to describe, compare, contrast, etc. and still have space to digress into a story for emphasis.

For the reader of shorter instructional articles this means that shorter will often mean simpler treatment.

So whether the author is Ewa or someone else, every writer finds short pieces a real challenge.

--Ted from Phoenix