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03-18-2002, 10:34 AM
Valley Forge was F-ing awesome!
This was the best year yet. Unfortunately, I didn't meet up with Grem or Sweetpea(I tried!) but I did catch up with Carol NYC. Carol NYC is alright in my book! If you love pool,(if you don't, skip this post,website,etc) there was enough action to hold any junkie over for a while. I won't talk about the Pro matches, I'm sure everyone heard those stories 10x over. How about the action on the Green room front table?! F-ing awesome! How about more action than just about anyone can handle? Sat night had Jose Paprika(Parica), stopping in to watch, then jumping in to play, which brought in Frankie Hernandez, who was playing Keith Mc Cready, who was playing Santos Sambajon! Sometimes, it would cost you $100 just to rack!(money racks) If you got a shot at all, if you didn't run out, you better put your name on the list and wait your next turn. These guys were hitting them good, and I'm talking about everyone, not just the Pro's. There was a guy named Francisco, short,20 something, a little pudgy, brown slicked back hair who was stong as hell! I hope someone can tell me who he is. Nobody knew him. I asked Frankie and he had no clue. Holy [censored]! This guy held the table for 9 games once! He was breakin n running,and getting out from everywhere! Frankie racked for him, then handed him $100! He didn't get a chance to get his stick out of the case! He sent Kevin Freeman packing, drilled J Parica twice and when he did miss, he left pretty good-great 2 way shots. You have to remember, the life expectancy at the table was about 1-2 games! It's a race to 1 and you have to hope that the breaker would miss and give you a shot. By midnight, the side bets were out of control! I heard 2 people bet that the breaker would make 2 balls on the break, Paul Raval bet some black guy $100 on a coin toss! You gotta love it! How stong was the field? Guys I know that are A- open players all dropped out, eventually. At the end, it was just Keith,Frankie, Jose,Santos, Nick Schulman, and 1-2 other guys going round and round. At that point if you weren't breakin n runnin, your just a donation! Next year can't come too soon.

03-18-2002, 11:30 AM
I borrowed this from someone. This was the action table on Sat night.(I'm the guy standing, in a blue shirt, with black hair, in case anyone gives a sh!t...)
http://www.homestead.com/patappool/files/action_table1.gif

03-18-2002, 11:39 AM
Hi Eric. The short, pudgy guy is Francisco Diaz. He came out of nowhere a few months ago and actually won a Joss Tournament. I'm sure Frankie knows him, even if he wasn't letting on. Always the professional, that Frankie :-))

- Steve Lipsky

03-18-2002, 11:47 AM
Thanks Steve! Were you at VF? Have a good time? FYI-I posted a pic of the action table from Sat nite.

03-18-2002, 12:04 PM
Hi Eric. No, this was the first year I didn't go to VF in quite awhile. But I lived the action vicariously through Nicky's stories afterward...

- Steve

03-18-2002, 12:16 PM
I'll tell you what, Steve; Nicky has alot of heart! He was hanging in there with the big hitters and I think he won 1 or 3 or so. BTW- I think I saw your wife floating around VF.

03-18-2002, 12:24 PM
Eric wrote:

BTW- I think I saw your wife floating around VF.

WHAT??!!! She told me she went to her parents' house for the weekend! I'll kill her!

- Steve (just kidding, of course)

Doctor_D
03-18-2002, 06:18 PM
Good evening:

Awesome, would definitely prove to be an understatement. Wow, what a great weekend.

Dr. D.

03-18-2002, 06:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Doctor_D:</font><hr> Good evening:

Awesome, would definitely prove to be an understatement. Wow, what a great weekend.

Dr. D.
<hr></blockquote>
You said it! I'll look forward to running into you again, Diana.

JimS
03-18-2002, 07:48 PM
Anyone know the dates for 2003?

03-18-2002, 07:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: JimS:</font><hr> Anyone know the dates for 2003? <hr></blockquote>

http://www.superbilliardsexpo.com/home.html

Barbara
03-18-2002, 08:17 PM
Steve,

You have to get your wife into control!! Every time she doesn't win an event, she goes crazy!! I know she has the killer instinct to win but maybe she could calm down a little, whaddya think??? Plus, she's scared of me. Only because her cell phone went off when I was shooting the 9 in the only match I won against her and then there's a ruling for cell phones now...? (and I didn't even get distracted by that but it was pointed out to me afterwards)

I'm there at Corner in two weeks to re-meet ya /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Barbara~~really tired, fading fast, and loggin off....

03-18-2002, 10:00 PM
Eric, your portrayal of the scene downstairs at Valley Forge was very accurate. Although it was obviously entertaining for many, personally myself (as well as others I talked to who witnessed it) have legitimate concerns as far as how this activity could potentially destroy the future of the Super Billiards Expo. One can go downstairs to the action room with their kids to witness this spectacle without even having to pay to get in to the expo.

I'm sure there are many here that don't like this being mentioned on this public forum, but for those of us that really love this sport and this event, this simply needs to be addressed. The open and blatant gambling of large $ sums not only by the players but even moreso by observers of the matches, the open card games going on at the dining tables with piles of money, etc. would certainly be subject for a potential bust and charges brought upon Allen, Dawn, the Convention Center and others.

Do they not remember what happened recently with Barry Behrman just a few months ago? Yes, this element in our sport is almost inevitable to a large degree when you assemble this many pool players at one location, but it is also precisely what will continue to hold us back. I'd hate to see this great event go down the tubes due to this activity. Allen and Dawn had better wake up, take notice and clean this up for future years!

One final note, the concession prices at the Expo were extremely high as usual with the exception of beer at $2 per can - $1 less than the $3 charged for tea and lemonade! Good news for the drinkers, but did anyone else pick up on that? I can only guess that is to encourage more drinking and more spending at the booths.

Ken
03-19-2002, 05:54 AM
I don't know how anyone could get in without paying but the open gambling could very easily get the event closed. There is too large a crowd not to have someone who would complain and with cell phones they could have a squad of police there in minutes. I wouldn't be surprised if there were observers there from the police next year.

They are taking a big chance by letting that go on and there's no way anyone could have missed it. I was in the pro venue and it was so loud I went out to watch. Many people were standing on chairs and one collapsed and the guy took a bad fall.
Ken in CT

Rich R.
03-19-2002, 06:38 AM
Jim, the dates for 2003 are March 21-23. Hope to see you there. Rich R.~~~can't wait twelve whole months.

Doctor_D
03-19-2002, 06:40 AM
Good morning:

What faster way could there be to distroy a sport, as well as to keep serious sponsors and/or investors away, then to allow this type of activity to not only continue but to thrive.

Our sport will NEVER gain a legitimate status if this continues.

Dr. D.

Rich R.
03-19-2002, 06:44 AM
Steve, I had the pleasure of watching you wife play a few racks on Sunday morning. Although Barbara pointed her out to me, I believe I have seen her play before, in some of the tournaments here in Maryland. She is very good. I assume she has taught you everything you know. LOL. Sorry you didn't make it. I would have liked to meet you. Rich R.

Rich R.
03-19-2002, 06:49 AM
Barbara, this is probably a stupid question because of the numbers involved, but are the results of the VF amateur events posted on-line anywhere? If they are on the Super Billiard Expo site, I have missed them. Rich R.

03-19-2002, 08:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Doctor_D:</font><hr> Good morning:

What faster way could there be to distroy a sport, as well as to keep serious sponsors and/or investors away, then to allow this type of activity to not only continue but to thrive.

Our sport will NEVER gain a legitimate status if this continues.
You've never heard of "Skins" in Golf? Get off your high horse- it's a lame head trip.

Dr. D.
<hr></blockquote>

03-19-2002, 09:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Doctor_D:</font><hr> Good morning:

What faster way could there be to distroy a sport, as well as to keep serious sponsors and/or investors away, then to allow this type of activity to not only continue but to thrive.

Our sport will NEVER gain a legitimate status if this continues.

Dr. D.
<hr></blockquote>
You've never heard of "Skins" in Golf? Get off your high horse-it's a lame head trip!

TomBrooklyn
03-19-2002, 10:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Doctor_D:</font><hr>What faster way could there be to distroy a sport, as well as to keep serious sponsors and/or investors away, then to allow this type of activity to not only continue but to thrive. Our sport will NEVER gain a legitimate status if this continues.<hr></blockquote>I don't agree. Quite to the contrary, there is no legitimate sport in the United States, and probably the world, that does not attract a huge and well established betting industry. A simple internet search under "sports betting" can confirm this.

Mikey
03-19-2002, 11:08 AM
And you don't think allen , dawn and the convention center don't know about the game room, HAH! I know for a fact they know, and do they care? I don't think so.People come from all over to gamble and people come from all over just to watch the gamblers. I spent many hours Fri. and Sat. night watching and enjoyed it very much esecially Sat. night when the pros were playing. It's not for everyone, so if it's not your cup of tea, stay upstairs.---Mikey

03-19-2002, 11:47 AM
The concession prices were high, yes, but I don't think Alan and Dawn set them. You could get soft drinks (including iced tea) from the vending machines for $1.75, so I didn't buy any from the concession stands.

I personally loved the action, but I think it would be smarter if they went back to an action room rather than had the action on tables in the "public" part of the Expo.

Regards,

Gideon

TomBrooklyn
03-19-2002, 12:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> Eric, your portrayal of the scene downstairs at Valley Forge was very accurate. Although it was obviously entertaining for many, (I and others) have legitimate concerns that this activity could [be detrimental] to the future of the Super Billiards Expo. One can go downstairs to the action room with their kids to witness this spectacle without even having to pay to get in to the expo. I'm sure there are many here that don't like this being mentioned on this public forum <hr></blockquote>Anonymous, you are correct that many on this forum would have prefered that both you and Eric would have excercised more common sense and restraint in your public comments. While your concerns vis-a-vis the public are overblown and the good citizens of Valley Forge welcome the expo and it's participants; I suspect they, also, would have prefered that you did not post all the details of the expo activities on this forum.

As far the minors in attendence, although it is a well established trend in this country for persons to abdicate personal responsibility in favor of corporate and government liability; I would suggest to all parents that they take responsibility for their own children and control their whereabouts and activities according to their own good judgement.

03-19-2002, 12:37 PM
If anyone out there has any more pictures of the table action later then night with Frankie Hernandez and Jose Parica, please share with us.

Many Thanks.
David

BTW, most of the amature players who were gambling Sat night were damed good players! Especially that short spanish gentlemen with mooroon shirt and slicked back shiny black hair. I think he was one of the best amature players Sat night.

JimS
03-19-2002, 01:08 PM
If you check on playpool.com you'll see that a guy named Sam has posted that he has pictures on line somewhere.

TomBrooklyn
03-19-2002, 01:40 PM
<font color=red>Sam's pictures can be seen at www.poolpa.com (http://www.poolpa.com) or more directly: http://www.homestead.com/patappool/Home1.html </font color=red>

03-19-2002, 02:33 PM
Let me try this one:

What's the diff between paying money in the form of an "Entry Fee" to play in a tournament, and take the risk of maybe winning the pot OR paying an "Entry Fee" to play someone 1 game/match and maybe winning the pot?

Dev L. Sadvocate

Ken
03-19-2002, 04:53 PM
There is no difference. What is the "WOW" for? All gambling is legal unless the state passes a law against it and the law will specify what forms of gambling are illegal. In most states it is legal to put up your own money and play a game of skill. It can become illegal if someone not competing takes a cut or if there are side bets. Florida makes an exception for playing pool but I know of no other state where it is illegal. You can't make the assumption that if gambling is illegal then what about this or that which is accepted but you assume is illegal. It isn't all illegal.

03-19-2002, 05:29 PM
Actually Ken, I think you misunderstood my sarcasm. I was just trying to draw similarities between 2 individuals betting vs. the tournament format, which is basically the same thing. I believe(I'm not a lawyer or an Indian Chief for that matter...) that most states do not consider gambling an offense until someone promotes it for profit. If promoting, you need a permit/license(state getting their cheese) and without that, you face the wrath of the moral majority. If it is between 2 willing individuals, I think it is difficult to prosecute(?). From what I'm told, the key is if it is run publicly,fro profit or privately between individuals.
Regarding WOW?!; how does a light topic about a fun weekend turn into Roe vs. Wade? Some people need to relax a tiny bit. Man!

Ken
03-19-2002, 06:06 PM
I see what you were getting at. The laws vary quite a bit and there is also the discretion of the prosecutor to consider. Even betting that would be illegal such as on the outcome of a football game would probably be ignored by a prosecutor if it was just between individuals. I read the laws in Arizona and practically any gambling is legal if nobody makes a profit and only the players are betting.

My only concern is that the more visible the side action is the more likely that the promotors might get busted. If you put on an event that will attract locals there is a good chance that a few cops and prosecutors will walk through the door. If there is a deafening roar from downstairs they might go take a look. I know I did.
Ken in CT

Barbara
03-19-2002, 06:41 PM
Rich,

I know that Norman Wines won the Men's Open, Rachael Abbink won the Women's, and Josh Brothers took the 18-and Under Jrs. I don't know who took the Juniors 14-and Under since I got reassigned to the Men's Pro Arena Sunday afternoon.

I guess you'll have to wait for the results in one of the mags.

Barbara~~~was planning on writing this info down but got busy looking for a lost bracelet....

Ken
03-19-2002, 06:49 PM
Mike Dechaine won the 14 under. (Mike from ME aka Mike D on the old board. I took some pics of him playing including his last shot. Maybe he'll post some on his website: http://www.md.com2.info/

Barbara
03-19-2002, 07:36 PM
Ken,

That's right, now I remember!! I think Nathan Kerr came in second.

Boy! What a bunch of nice kids, too!! And man do they shoot fast! It's lock and load, lock and load for them. None of the matches went to more than 1 1/2 hours. This one 14 and under, I forget his name, too, was dressed really nice in a dress shirt and a vest on Sat and just could barely reach the TD desk to give his score sheet. Anyway, I kinda remember him jumping up a little, slapping down his score sheet and saying "Read it and weep!". Nadine and I just about fell over the place over his little "addytood". But they were all perfect gentlemen and ladies and I'll run those brackets again in a heartbeat.

For the record, the "slow pokes" of the tourny were the women and especially the senior men! Jerry mentioned something about shortening the seniors to a race to 4, 2 out of 3 races.

Barbara~~~still chuckling over the "Addytood Kid"....

03-19-2002, 11:24 PM
Hate to call you on this one Buddy, but gambling is NOT going to dEstroy our sport, ignorance is. I'll bet you already knew that though, didn't you? LOL By the way all, gambling openly is ONLY illegal if Allen and Dawn are getting a cut of the action. If you really wanted to try, you could argue that the fee for the table is just that, but you probably couldn't get a judge to hear it.

Ken
03-20-2002, 09:15 AM
Lorri, I certainly agree with you that gambling is not going to destroy pool. Your statement that gambling is illegal if the promotor is getting a cut is also quite correct in most jurisdictions. However, that is not the only way that a person might be found quilty of a crime under the Pennsylvania law:

5513. Gambling devices, gambling, etc.
(a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree if he:
2. allows persons to collect and assemble for the purpose of unlawful gambling at any place under his control;
4. being the owner, tenant, lessee or occupant of any premises, knowingly permits or suffers the same, or any part thereof, to be used for the purpose of unlawful gambling.
(b) Confiscation of gambling devices.--Any gambling device possessed or used in violation of the provisions of subsection (a) of this section shall be seized and forfeited to the Commonwealth

Besides the loss of a few pool tables and closing down of the premises there might be a 5 year sentence imposed. You could argue that gambling openly is lawful but I can assure you that the Pennsylvania statutes do not make it lawful.

Its not going to hurt pool in its present state to have promotors arrested but the problem is that it will cause potential sponsors to avoid putting money into pool events and therefore hurt its potential in the future. Think about how all the exhibitors would have felt if the place had been closed on Friday by a bust. The financial loss to the promotors would have been devastating.
Ken in CT

cheesemouse
03-20-2002, 12:27 PM
Ken,
You wrote <blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>it will cause potential sponsors to avoid putting money into pool events and therefore hurt its potential in the future.<hr></blockquote>
Potential sponsors have a history of using sex, violence, race, rock&amp;roll, humor, tragity and/or any trend of the moment to peddle their wares I don't think some legal wagering is going to scare the boys in the Corporate Ivory Towers away from putting their advertising dollars into the game of pool. All they want is room on the bandwagon for their bundles of cash. Pool needs a bandwagon and maybe starting to portray pool as it lives and breathes here on earth would be a good honest start to building that wagon. Just dealing with reality can get you a long ways down the road in most situations. Have you ever heard the expression "if you always tell the truth you never have to remember what you said" Just a thought.

Ken
03-20-2002, 12:55 PM
Cheesemouse,
I didn't address "legal wagering" and I agree that it is unlikely to turn off potential sponsors. However, I'm sure they don't want to put there money on a bandwagon that is likely to get confiscated by the State. It's not good publicity either.

There's nothing secret about the image of pool and it's been that way for years. People also have been lamenting that pool has not made it to the bigtime for years. Is there a connection? I don't know. Someone should ask the potential large corporate sponsors or perhaps someone already has.
Ken

cheesemouse
03-20-2002, 02:24 PM
Ken,
Ken,
I'm not looking for an aurgument over what is legal/illegal, I leave that up to the state/local goverments which have enough laws on the books to pick and choice which they will enforce and which they choice to overlook. I'm sure Allen&amp;crews actions spring from an intimate relationship with the local sheriff. Us pool enthusiast all wish the best for our sport but the white knight theory may not be the answer. I like wagons painted with pretty colors and driven by people dressed in flashy clothes.

TomBrooklyn
03-20-2002, 02:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: cheesemouse:</font><hr> I like wagons painted with pretty colors and driven by people dressed in flashy clothes.<hr></blockquote><font color=blue>Everybody</font color=blue><font color=red> loves</font color=red><font color=yellow> a</font color=yellow><font color=orange> parade!</font color=orange>

Mike D2
03-20-2002, 06:30 PM
Once i get the pics i will post them on my website. The website is pretty lame right now but will get better. Ken i had now clue that that was you.