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NBC-BOB
02-26-2003, 08:56 AM
At home I have a Brunswick heritage table,I guess it's about 40 yrs old 1" slate,center ball return and I think it's a great playing table.However over the years, I've played on an awful lot of tables.Of cause lots of gold crowns, but I've seen a lot of slate lines,in these tables
and have had problems with the balls getting stuck in the ball return.So I guess although the Brunswick gold crowns are very popular, I for one don't think there the best.
I think one of my favorite's was a table made by A.E. Schmidt.Although the table didn't have a ball return, I thought it was one of the best that I've played on.
So what's your favorite table?

cheesemouse
02-26-2003, 09:28 AM
Used to be Brunswick GC but now it is the Diamond Pro...

02-26-2003, 09:32 AM
Brunswick is my favorite, although that may be overriden soon as the Diamond Pro is growing on me.

Regarding the slate lines, that sounds like either an installer issue or a table wear issue, and not a Brunswick fault. I've never seen slate lines in the GC's I've played on. If the slate is properly floated and leveled, and the seams filled and finished properly, you should never see a line.

David

02-26-2003, 09:52 AM
I haven't played on a lot of different tables but so far I like Connelly the best. I'm going to play on a brunswick GC tonight for the first time so I'll see how it comparess.

Fred Agnir
02-26-2003, 02:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote NBC-BOB:</font><hr>
So what's your favorite table? <hr /></blockquote>

Gabriel. Then Diamond.

Fred

Paul_Mon
02-26-2003, 04:56 PM
I own a GCIII that plays great. It used to spit balls rolled slowly into the side pockets, easily fixed and no longer a problem. I bought this table 5 years ago and have no regrets. If possible I would replace it with a Brunswick Anniversary table. I love the flat rails and the look of the Anniversary. I have seen Anniversary's sell for less than what I paid for the GCIII.

If money wasn't an issue I would buy a Gabriels. But I doubt that you'd ever see one for less than $2000.

Paul Mon

snipershot
02-26-2003, 06:33 PM
I haven't played on a whole lot of tables but Brunswick GC is by far my favorite table manufacturer. I know their everywhere but I simply love their tables.

Vince S.
02-26-2003, 09:37 PM
My vote is for Gabriel, liked it enough to buy one!

Never played on a Diamond, so Gold Crown would be my runner up.

Vince S.

Gayle in MD
02-28-2003, 05:20 AM
By Far, the Diamond Pro. Used to like Brunswicks, until I played on a Diamond. The Gabriels is no better table than a Diamond Pro, if as good, and it is much more expensive to buy.

Even more important than that, if there ever was a time when we should all be doing our best to buy "American" this is the time.

Gayle in Md., not sending my money to Europe, but thinks the Diamond is the best anyway! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Joe Marra
02-28-2003, 02:23 PM
Gayle, you obviously don't know what you are talking about, so why don't you keep it to yourself. Gabriels have been making tables since 1932.

Gayle in MD
02-28-2003, 04:21 PM
Mr. Marra,
I'm quite sure YOU know exactly what I'm talking about, and I'm not talking about the tables they made in 1932. As for keeping the truth to myself, or anything else I choose to write about here, you can stuff it. I don't use this format as free advertising for myself, nor do I post untruths.

Gayle in Md.....BUY AMERICAN MADE PRODUCTS!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in Md.

02-28-2003, 05:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Mr. Marra,
I'm quite sure YOU know exactly what I'm talking about, and I'm not talking about the tables they made in 1932. As for keeping the truth to myself, or anything else I choose to write about here, you can stuff it. I don't use this format as free advertising for myself, nor do I post untruths.

Gayle in Md.....BUY AMERICAN MADE PRODUCTS!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

so, joe, you ever hear how, in the old, old days; after battle they'd kill the captives they liked. the ones they didn't like they'd take back to camp and give to the women.

dan...eyes down, backing out verrry slowwly.

Popcorn
02-28-2003, 06:27 PM
Why so angry? Plus you have no idea what you are talking about. As far as the rest of your comments, not even worth responding to. The first Diamond tables were not very good and they went back to the drawing boards trying to refine the mess with the ball returns as well as rail problems. The tables were built by trial and error and if you have one of the older ones, you have far from a great table. They only recently have gotten their act together. I doubt there was much Gabriels needed t learn from Diamond, maybe the other way around. Stop trying to sound important on a subject you know nothing about. Not one of my usual posts, but your comments got my attention.

Gayle in MD
02-28-2003, 06:48 PM
That's your opinion, and you have a right to write what you please. My information comes from a VERY good source, or I wouldn't have posted it. I don't do that here or anywhere.

My opinion is that the Diamond Pro is the best table, dollar for dollar, that you can buy. Also they are great people to deal with. I think the poster asked for opinions.

Sounding important? LOL, Nothing to do with it.

Gayle in Md. BUY AMERICAN MADE PRODUCTS ! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cueless Joey
02-28-2003, 07:35 PM
GC I or II. I have no idea why you think Schmidt's are better. I've played their expensive tables at Dave and Busters. They play crappy to me. The cushions do not play right.
Diamonds are great too but the rails are not as low profile as the GC's. With GC's, you almost never hit the rail with your grip hand. The angle of the end cushions' facing on Diamond are too flat imo. That's why they spit out too many balls.
I have not played on Gabriels. But, it probably costs a grand each to ship it from Europe.
A used GC for around 2k is hard to beat, dollar for dollar imo. Have you heard of an unhappy GC owner? GC III maybe. But never I or II or IV.

Popcorn
02-28-2003, 09:50 PM
So does my information, first hand experience with these early tables. Like I said, they got their act together and build a nice table today. I played on Gabriels tables in Belgium at a place called Mr. 100 owned by Culemens. That was years ago and they have been building great tables for many many years and there was nothing they needed to learn from a fledgeling company like Diamond. By the way, how much of the Diamond would you say comes from the US? From the Slate to the exotic woods to the balls cloth and rails, almost all is imported. I guess you have to quit playing pool.

Ken
03-01-2003, 07:14 AM
When it comes to tables with pockets, Gabriels has been making copies of Diamonds. It seems that now their frame is copied from K. Steel but the playing surface is still a copy of the Diamond. If they ever made another table with pockets before they started copying Diamond apparently they have abandoned that design (if it ever existed) in favor of copying the Diamond.

Of course, they are copying an early Diamond design so they do not have all the latest improvements. I have no idea what they are using for cushion rubber. I guess they don't think it's important to advertise that detail, so I don't supppose it is Artemis. But why would they use Artemis since it is made in America?
KenCT

Vagabond
03-01-2003, 07:38 AM
Howdy Mr.Marra Sir,
In the absence of hurling insults at some body,her comments of expressing her preferences is very appropriate and she has every right to do so.I know that u have buisiness interest in Gabriels.U could have disagreed with her with out going on offensive.Enough said.Cheers
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Fred Agnir
03-01-2003, 08:09 AM
[ QUOTE ]
When it comes to tables with pockets, Gabriels has been making copies of Diamonds. It seems that now their frame is copied from K. Steel but the playing surface is still a copy of the Diamond.<hr /></blockquote>I don't understand this. The rails are different. The pockets are different. The sound is different. What's the copy that people are talking about? The Kim Steele frame is also different.

Just one man's opinion, but I have played on, and crawled under Diamonds, Kim Steeles and Gabriels (three of my very favorite tables). All of them are distinctly different so much that, IMO, none resembles any of the other two.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ken:</font><hr> I guess they don't think it's important to advertise that detail, so I don't supppose it is Artemis.<hr /></blockquote>Artemis, last I knew. Joe?



Fred

Ken
03-01-2003, 08:50 AM
Fred, I don't doubt that they have made some changes from the original Diamond design. Anyone can take someone elses design, customize it some and then call it their own. A lot of this stuff is not protected by patent.

It seems that they are using Artemis since I went to a site that said "Artemis cushions with K-66 profile".

Gabriels has doweled slates which is a good feature. It is a great table and I would recommend that anyone from Belgium or nearby get a Gabriels if the price is competitive or if they can afford it. I have no idea what they cost. I talked to Joe and didn't get much about whether they are competitive with Diamond.

I went to the Diamond booth and they were handing out price lists. I wonder what it costs to ship 3/4 of a ton from Belgium. I know Diamond will work with a customer and if they have a truck going your way they'll just put it on and set it up for you for a fairly low cost.

If we are going to determine who makes the "best table" regardless of whether or not it has pockets we might have to start talking about tables whose price is an order of magnitude greater than what has been discussed so far.
KenCT

Popcorn
03-01-2003, 08:56 AM
She even changed the title of the thread. Her original remarks were not called for, it was not at all in the fun and spirit of the discussion. Besides she has no idea what she is talking about. It was not called for and it is a mystery why she originally wrote it. Pretty hateful for no reason, other then some diamond people seem to be friends of hers and she owns one.

Scott Lee
03-01-2003, 09:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ken:</font><hr>

I went to the Diamond booth and they were handing out price lists. I wonder what it costs to ship 3/4 of a ton from Belgium. I know Diamond will work with a customer and if they have a truck going your way they'll just put it on and set it up for you for a fairly low cost.

KenCT <hr /></blockquote>

Ken...Excel Billiards/Joe Marra has Gabriel tables ready for shipment to U.S. customers from Florida, not Belgium.
Gabriel tables can be purchased for very close to the same price as a Diamond Pro...I know, I bought one. Both are excellent tables, imo.

Scott Lee

Sid_Vicious
03-01-2003, 10:04 AM
Diamond tables have my vote. Nuff said...sid

Barbara
03-01-2003, 10:33 AM
If I didn't have my GC1, I'd go with a Diamond Pro. Absolutely a great table!

Barbara

Ken
03-01-2003, 11:18 AM
Scott, I've seen tables offered by Joe for a good price. I always thought those were tables used at tournaments and available at a special price. If he is selling the new tables at those prices that is pretty good.

It has been my understanding, perhaps from the same source as Gayle, that the Gabriels started out as a clone of Diamond and that both tables have evolved since then. Even now, the Gabriels has the same thickness slate, same cushion rubber and cloth and I thought the pockets looked identical to the Diamonds. Gabriels also still offers "Dynondwood" which I believe is very similar to "Dymondwood" or whatever Diamond calls it.

I agree that both are excellent tables and seem to be a great value for the money.
KenCT

Popcorn
03-01-2003, 12:17 PM
Dymondwood is a copyrighted name of a product made by a company that impregnates different woods with resin. It has nothing to do with the Diamond table company. It is used in everything from gun stocks to fountain pens. The similarity in names is purely coincidental. It has been around for a long time.

Chris in NC
03-01-2003, 12:51 PM
I have read this entire thread and must respond my feedback, based on years of experience of having played alot on ALL the top model commercial tables - GC, Diamond, Kim Steel, Gabriels and Collelly Ultimate.

Anyone who has been to our poolroom here in western NC (Family Billiards) knows that we spare no expense in providing the best playing environment and billiard tables and equipment available on the market. That is one big reason why for over 5 years Allison Fisher has chosen to travel over 2 hours to practice here before big tournaments. Even if the best playing commercial table cost 2X as much as the next best table, I would have it in our poolroom, and those that know me will verify that. However, the fact is that the Gabriel's Signature Pro can be purchased in the same price range as those other top commercial tables I mentioned above - and to me is a far superior table.

We replaced our Connelly Ultimate tables here last year with Gabriel Signature tables, and I could not be happier with our decision. More importantly our customers could not be happier. Our pool table revenue is way up - bottom line is that players are now playing longer. Also, I always make a point to ask the better and more experienced road players who come in here what they think of the new tables, and I have yet to receive one single negative comment regarding these Gabriel tables and the way they play.

I would suggest that anyone offering their opinion on this thread, to be taken seriously should be an experienced and advanced skilled player AND has played considerable on ALL the table models in question, as I have. Moreover, not only have I played on all the various models, but I have taken part in seeing all of them assembled from scratch and/or disassembled. What is under the slate of the Gabriel table (a solid steel I-beam frame by itself weighing the same if not more than all 3 pieces of the 30mm - 1.17" thick slate put together! Comparing this massive underframing to what little there is under the Diamond or the Gold Crown tables is staggering by comparison! Add to that the steel backed rails, the Artemis cushions, the state of the art pocket design and materials, and there is absolutely no question in my mind that this table plays the best!

Anyone who wants to truly experience what I'm talking about is welcome to come to our room or call me directly at our room - 828-963-6260 anytime if you have further questions.

Hope to see some of you in Valley Forge! - Chris in NC

Troy
03-01-2003, 04:37 PM
Welcome back to the CCB Chris... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif You've been gone quite a while.....too long... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Troy

Gayle in MD
03-01-2003, 04:57 PM
Hi Scott,
As you know, my husband, Jim, has been building quality custom furniture for fifty years. As you know also, he's a perfectionist, and knows his stuff. Together, we researched all the tables before we made our decision.

He is able to judge very easily the construction of pool tables, having had years and years of experience, working with many different componets. He also is well aware of quality, what is good sound design fundamentals, and what is overkill.

I stand by my original post. Dollar for dollar, the Diamond Pro is the best table on the market, hands down. I would take Jim's opinion more seriously than any Pool players opinion.

See you soon Scott, take care.

Gayle in Md.

03-01-2003, 07:58 PM
The best table made was the Gold Crown II it was way head of it time, the way the slate was put together the tight pocket too love playing on a Gold Crown II double shimed ? /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

#### leonard
03-01-2003, 08:38 PM
I second that Troy, Chris is Too Long out of the Loop. It is nice also to see Stretch posting once in a while. ####

Fred Agnir
03-02-2003, 06:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ken:</font><hr>

Even now, the Gabriels has the same thickness slate, same cushion rubber and cloth and I thought the pockets looked identical to the Diamonds<hr /></blockquote>
Same thickness slate? Slate is a purchased item.

Artemis cushions? The first Gabriels I saw had Artemis cushions whereas the move to Artemis was a relatively recent one for Diamond as an add-on option.

And which pockets are you talking about that look like each other? They look nothing like one another in any respect.

The cloth? Give me something better than that, please.

Fred

Fred Agnir
03-02-2003, 06:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris in NC:</font><hr> What is under the slate of the Gabriel table (a solid steel I-beam frame by itself weighing the same if not more than all 3 pieces of the 30mm - 1.17" thick slate put together! Comparing this massive underframing to what little there is under the Diamond or the Gold Crown tables is staggering by comparison!<hr /></blockquote>I'm so glad you piped in, Chris. I think you'd be the most experienced at this one. Anyway, I'm wondering the first Gabriels I saw had U-channel (deeper than C-channel) beams, not I-beams. Did they change?

[ QUOTE ]
Add to that the steel backed rails, the Artemis cushions, the state of the art pocket design and materials, and there is absolutely no question in my mind that this table plays the best!<hr /></blockquote>Ditto

Voodoo Daddy
03-02-2003, 07:47 AM
{Toss's his hat in the ring of opinions} Not that I know anything but I have played on many tables in my life, from furniture to commercial tables. I have played on a Gabriel 3C table in Miami...pretty solid table. I have also played on many Diamonds, GC's, A.E.Schmidts, Murrys, Robertsons, Gandys and so on. My favorite table is a Brunswick Anniversary...classic styling and I have never played on one that wasnt close to perfect. The next table is the Kim Steel, I played on them at a One Pocket event in Roanoke, Va.. For my dough, Kim Steel is the choice. But we all have a opinon...right Joe? Right Gayle? Right Popcorn?...just checkin'.

Ken
03-02-2003, 07:58 AM
Like I said earlier they started out making a clone of Diamond and evolved from there. There are many remnants of the original design still present. They are buying American Dymondwood and American cushions. Why would a Belgian company get their supplies from the USA except that they started as a copy of an American product and wish to retain many of those features? Unless I have been misinformed this is just history and not sxomething that can be determined by a simple inspection or comparison of the tables in their present embodiment.

I don't dispute that there are differences now but the pockets are identical in appearance. They have made no attempt to disguise that. They have gone to a metal frame and it seems they have had to add a bunch of gadgets to allow adjustment for the bending that they now get.

I don't dispute that they are great tables and I, for one, like the features that permit regularly adjusting the flatness of the slate. Others might prefer that the slate stay where they put it. Any material that bends is going to flex as additional weight is put on it.

I wonder what the effect is when someone puts their weight on the table to take a shot. It would be interesting if some engineer were to take a few measurements. I suppose it's nice to have a heavy table but if that weight is required to compensate for flexing of the frame I question the whole design which would have to be a compromise between weight and functionality.

The slate is not quite the same since I believe that Gabriels is using doweled slates. That's a feature that I wish never had been discontinued.
KenCT

Chris in NC
03-02-2003, 01:44 PM
Fred, you are correct. The standard Gabriel's Signature Pro comes with a U-beam steel frame for the 30mm 1.17" thick slate. Our tables were actually custom ordered beefed up models that contain 40mm 1.56" thick slate. For that added weight, I requested for them to use the thicker and heavier I-beam frames for our tables, which they use for their 50mm thick billiard tables. Personally, I don't think either the thicker slate or the thicker I-beam frames are at all necessary, but I wanted something a little special. - Chris in NC

Brady_Behrman
03-02-2003, 05:52 PM
Gayle, Gabriels are a Great Table...

They can not be knocked!

Gayle in MD
03-02-2003, 08:41 PM
Hi Brady,
That's your opinion, you're welcome to it. Personally, my opinion is that a man who has designed and built houses, and high end custom furniture and antique reproductions for fifty years, is the best one to judge the quality of design and construction.

Without going through a blow by blow description of why he decided that the Diamond has the best design by far, suffice it to say, IMO, he was right.

Anyone who wants to send their money to Belgium, of all places, can have at it, lol. As for me, I LOVE my Diamond Pro, and highly recommend it to anyone who would like to own a quality table, and deal with quality people who stand by their product.

All the best to you and your family Brady, and nice hearing from you.

Gayle In Md.

Rip
03-02-2003, 09:24 PM
Gayle, if YOUR husband says YOUR table is the best in the world, then dammit--it must be true! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I was wondering if you actually played on a Gabriels and also played on a Diamond Pro before making your choice? I've played on both, crawled underneath both and agree they are both very nice.

You will obviously continue to enjoy your table and I'll bet others will probably continue to enjoy their tables even though they're not exactly like yours. After all, Baskin Robbins has how many flavors? Which one is the 'BEST'?
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif Rip~~hopes everyone loves their table no matter what brand it is!

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Hi Brady,
That's your opinion, you're welcome to it. Personally, my opinion is that a man who has designed and built houses, and high end custom furniture and antique reproductions for fifty years, is the best one to judge the quality of design and construction.

Without going through a blow by blow description of why he decided that the Diamond has the best design by far, suffice it to say, IMO, he was right.

Anyone who wants to send their money to Belgium, of all places, can have at it, lol. As for me, I LOVE my Diamond Pro, and highly recommend it to anyone who would like to own a quality table, and deal with quality people who stand by their product.

All the best to you and your family Brady, and nice hearing from you.

Gayle In Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Troy
03-02-2003, 09:43 PM
Actually Rip, I think Gayle is referring to her Dad when she said "fifty years" experience. Not that the bias would be any more or less..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rip:</font><hr> Gayle, if YOUR husband says YOUR table is the best in the world, then dammit--it must be true! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I was wondering if you actually played on a Gabriels and also played on a Diamond Pro before making your choice? I've played on both, crawled underneath both and agree they are both very nice.

You will obviously continue to enjoy your table and I'll bet others will probably continue to enjoy their tables even though they're not exactly like yours. After all, Baskin Robbins has how many flavors? Which one is the 'BEST'?
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif Rip~~hopes everyone loves their table no matter what brand it is!

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Hi Brady,
That's your opinion, you're welcome to it. Personally, my opinion is that a man who has designed and built houses, and high end custom furniture and antique reproductions for fifty years, is the best one to judge the quality of design and construction.

Without going through a blow by blow description of why he decided that the Diamond has the best design by far, suffice it to say, IMO, he was right.

Anyone who wants to send their money to Belgium, of all places, can have at it, lol. As for me, I LOVE my Diamond Pro, and highly recommend it to anyone who would like to own a quality table, and deal with quality people who stand by their product.

All the best to you and your family Brady, and nice hearing from you.

Gayle In Md. <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Rip
03-02-2003, 11:09 PM
Thank you Troy as I stand corrected. Let the record show the word "husband" will be replaced with the word "dad" in my previous post. My apologies to all husbands and dads in the world of pooldom. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Rip~~likes Belgium tables, Belgium pool balls and absolutely loves Belgium waffles!

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Troy:</font><hr> Actually Rip, I think Gayle is referring to her Dad when she said "fifty years" experience. Not that the bias would be any more or less..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Popcorn
03-02-2003, 11:20 PM
How about those Belgium fries with mayonnaise?

Gayle in MD
03-03-2003, 08:10 AM
Hi Rip,
Actually, My husband came from a family of Architects, builders, and furniture manufacturers. He started building furniture when he was ten years old, and he's sixty now.

And yes, he checked out quite a few, Connally, Brunswick, Diamond, Gabriels, Olhausen.

Gayle in Md...Buy American Made Products!

Rip
03-03-2003, 08:36 AM
Gayle, Coincidentally, so did my uncle. Although he was an excellent craftsman, my uncle didn't have a clue when it came to comparing how two pool tables played differently.

The fact that your table, like most, has very few parts made in the USA probably doesn't reduce your patriotic quotient.
Regards, Rip

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Hi Rip,
Actually, My husband came from a family of Architects, builders, and furniture manufacturers. He started building furniture when he was ten years old, and he's sixty now.

And yes, he checked out quite a few, Connally, Brunswick, Diamond, Gabriels, Olhausen.

Gayle in Md...Buy American Made Products!

<hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD
03-03-2003, 11:32 AM
LOL Rip, guess some guys have it, and some guys don't /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif. And, actually, the Dimond tables are manufactured here in the good ol' USA. They use all native woods from several different parts of America.

I thought the Artimis was also from here.

At any rate, the company is owned by Americans, and the product is produced by Americans, and that's good enough for me.

Regards,

Gayle in Md. Buy American MADE Products! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

NBC-BOB
03-03-2003, 01:57 PM
Well Joe the schmidt tables that I played on were pretty old and I thought at the time they were pretty good.I don't know how there newer tables play now.I don't get out and play much anymore and have never played on some of the newer tables like gabriel,diamond, etc.Perhaps I'm a little out of touch these days. bob

03-04-2003, 12:08 AM
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