View Full Version : Students & Instructors
02-26-2003, 09:38 AM
THis post is mainly in response to recent thread regarding "The Monk" Tim Miller. In that post, the originator of the thread had paid an amount of money to attend one of Tim's sessions and came away less than satisfied. May I say, as an instructor, that not every teacher is for every student. I do not know Tim Miller personally, but I am familiar with his methods and his material, and may I say that it works for most. IN all honesty, it's not my cup of tea, but I appreciate what Tim does for this game, and the players that seek his assistance. If I have one criticism, it is that many of his sessions contain too many students, limiting one on one contact. I have encountered that problem myself with my seminars. Sometimes that cannot be avoided as some students demand to attend once they send their money. My instruction style is not for everybody either. I do my best and try to improve as an instructor as the years go by, and for me, that means that I must continue to learn as well. I can only realte to my students what has worked in the past. As a student, you must realize that you will not receive the bulk of my total instruction in one session. That is impossible. We improve in stages. Some of us need to hit rock bottom with our deficincies before we are willing to change. Change is dependent on the willingness of the student to adopt new ideas and to respond to the instruction. It is the responsibility of the instructor to provide quality instruction that answers the individual needs of each student. Myself, I do not train platoons of robots with a "one size fits all" instruction method. In my seminars, I give copies of my books away for free, I do not sell them. I feel you have been charged enough for the seminar. In all fairness to The Monk, the production cost of his material is far greater than mine, therefore I can afford to do this as my material is 100% self-produced. Another thing to look at, and I cover this during my seminar immediately, is that the student must voice his expectations. If this is a mystery to both the student and the instructor, neither will get anywhere during the process. This one of the major problems, and it can be avoided if the instructor and the student have a firm understanding of where they are at now, where they want to go, and how they are going to get there. Without this, both are just taking stabs in the dark at trying to accomplish the impossible. Students need to understand that Rome was not built in a day. I cannot work miracles, especially if you have a bad attitude towards training, or unrealistic expectations of your instructor. Also, a word of advice, which is very important. Find yourself a local instructor. The BCA can find you a well trained instructor in your area. If you attend my seminars, I will also recommend local instructors for you, or I have not done my job correctly.
Blackjack David Sapolis
El Paso, Texas
02-26-2003, 10:18 AM
David...Great post! I too, as an instructor (one who travels the country full time), believe it is a congruous relationship between student and teacher that produces the best results. For my part, I believe that understanding the components of the perfect stroke override strategy and other elements. Until you can stroke the CB smoothly, and hit EXACTLY where you think you are aiming...all the knowledge in the world is of limited use. Consequently, I make it clear to my students, that if they want to learn from me, they must first demonstrate that they have the equivilant of a "deliberate and timed" stroke. This is what I concentrate on with almost every student in the first lesson. Some students, who can demonstrate the stroke effectively right away, have the opportunity to move on to more advanced training immediately. But I find it is much more likely that they neither HAVE a stroke, nor do they understand how to go about getting one (it is almost always true that the student "believes" that they know what the stroke is, and that they already possess one! LOL).
So, where I agree with you fundamentally, about gearing the lesson to the student's expectations...I also think it is paramount to make certain they have sound fundamentals first.
02-26-2003, 10:25 AM
When you get here, Scott, I hope you like my stroke okay /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
02-26-2003, 10:36 AM
Laura...Of course I will! LOL But the truth is, it will be much better after our time together! I plan to run your A** until you are "dog-tired"! LOL...afterall, I want you to get your $$$ worth! ROFL Good thing we have the camera, so that you don't have to try and remember EVERYTHING! LOL See you in a month.
02-26-2003, 11:58 AM
Do you have a schedule where you will be?
02-26-2003, 12:38 PM
Email me for specific dates (firstname.lastname@example.org)...but I should be through your area (on !-10) around the end of April.
02-26-2003, 04:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Laura...Of course I will! LOL But the truth is, it will be much better after our time together! I plan to run your A** until you are "dog-tired"! LOL...afterall, I want you to get your $$$ worth! ROFL Good thing we have the camera, so that you don't have to try and remember EVERYTHING! LOL See you in a month.
Scott <hr /></blockquote>
Looking forward to it!!!
Jon from MN
02-26-2003, 05:32 PM
There is a certain percentage of students who will abandon the lessons all together if they dont feel they are getting anything out of it. I try to get keep them interested by doing different drills, then going back to work on the stroke. Jon from mn.
02-26-2003, 05:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jon from MN:</font><hr> There is a certain percentage of students who will abandon the lessons all together if they dont feel they are getting anything out of it. I try to get keep them interested by doing different drills, then going back to work on the stroke. Jon from mn. <hr /></blockquote>
Well everyone who takes a lesson from scott knows they have to pass the 'stroke test' before they can play with the other toys. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
02-27-2003, 12:04 AM
I believe you're talking about my post. I did not express disatisfaction with the Monk. I said that other people in the class were dissatisfied. I felt I got my money's worth; even one bit of learning is worth $35. For that bit of learning, I am grateful to Miller. And I came to the conclusion that the problem was the students, not the teacher.
I do however believe that the message Miller spreads is less about preaching enlightenment and more about marketing his wares, which in itself is not a problem. There is no capitalism without salesmen. But the sham is that he touts his instruction as part of the path to "mastering self."
My point was just as you say, that we students should have reasonable expectations of instruction's effect on our progress in pool. But in the same vein, we should not be lulled into believing everything an instructor says. We would be failing in our duty as students to accept instruction at face value. We should be respectful of more knowledgeable men, but we should not follow them blindly. I've had a few instructors over the past year, some accredited, others not. Every time someone teaches me something about pool, I wrestle with the information they are conveying. An answer is of little significance if we have not tested it ourselves and compared it to other possible answers. Especially at this early stage in my pool development, I must determine who is giving me the biggest slice of truth for my money. I feel confident in Phil Capelle's books and Scott Lee's instruction, because I have tested them against what I know from empirical evidence. With Miller, it's hit and miss. The biggest difference between Play Your Best Pool and Point the Way is that whereas Capelle provides clear evidence for his assertions, Miller is content to argue from generalizations or in a few cases popularly-accepted half-truths.
Dear Ludba, what a wonderful response, excellent sir. I read his book when it first came out, I was very surprised and glad somebody in pool finally recognized `the need to train the mind along with the body. There were many fine things in that book. You are correct, in some places he would say this & then say that & the 2 did not flow together. you cannot take a mans work & pick it to pieces, when I looked at the over all work, I agreed with over 90% of it, therefore in my opinion it was a hugh success. He wrote about nothing new that had not been banging around tennis or golf for 50 years. I have not read any of his other works, nor have I seen the man teach, so I offer no opinions, nor would I if I had seen him work. I am not sure if it is that ethical for one instructor to degrade another. As for enlightnment, that sir is the secret to life, get on that path & learn to obtain it, and nothing in pool now really matters any more. Best Wishes, Fast Larry Guninger
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