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Tom_In_Cincy
02-27-2003, 02:09 PM
Groups have been declared.

The player shooting, calls and pockets one of his opponents groups of balls. The non-shooting player does not realize the foul and says nothing. The shooting player, now continues to shoot the balls of the same group and is now shooting at the 8 ball and the none shooting player yells foul! and states that "you've been shooting the wrong group"

BCA rules in 8 ball don't cover this exact situation, but there is a notation about fouls that reads.

under 8 ball rules section 4.20 under 8 ball rules section 4.20
Note: All infractions must be called before another shot is taken, or else it will be deemed that no infraction occured.

Does this mean that the group that the shooter fouled on, became his group?

I use to think that if a player shot and made his opponents ball, and the opponent did not call a foul before the next shot, that if the shooter shot his original group, play continued, and if the shooter continued to shot the wrong group, it became his group.. but I have not seen this written anywhere.

02-27-2003, 02:23 PM
Tom,

According to those rules- I would think that if player A shoots at the wrong group and continues, player B can call a foul at any time, and player A's turn would end.

In this scenario, player B could probably let player A shoot in the 8-ball, and B would win the game, because player A pocketed the 8-ball while some of his balls (original balls) were still on the table.

Personally, I would notify the other player that he is sinking the wrong balls after his first shot- but that's just me.


Mike

02-27-2003, 02:24 PM
tom, you're right: the suit changes and yes, you could call a foul on him if he tries to go back. personally, i thought this was just plain silly when it came up here some time back but patti and some others finally walked us thru it. yes, it is the period of contestability rule and you do have to kinda stand on one foot and close one eye to see it but it is the official ruling.

i guess one could look at it is as a way to steal the other guys suit. wait till he looks away, quick make one of his then another and the deal is done. and you'll have the pleasure of knowing that, by the official bca rules, you were right, when you get out of the hospital.

dan

Wally_in_Cincy
02-27-2003, 02:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> Groups have been declared.

The player shooting, calls and pockets one of his opponents groups of balls.....

<hr /></blockquote>

If the wrong ball was pocketed because of the non-level table causing the CB to veer off course by more than 2" then it is not a foul since the naked eye cannot see whether or not the table is level.

However, if the errant roll of the cue ball was caused by a beer stain or a clump of dried chicken wing sauce, it is a foul because those are considered "special playing conditions" which should have been seen by the shooter.

Hope this helps,

Wally~~bar banger

Fred Agnir
02-27-2003, 03:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> &lt;snip player shoots at the wrong group of balls a couple of times before anyone realizes it&gt;

BCA rules in 8 ball don't cover this exact situation, but there is a notation about fouls that reads.

under 8 ball rules section 4.20

Note: All infractions must be called before another shot is taken, or else it will be deemed that no infraction occured.

Does this mean that the group that the shooter fouled on, became his group? <hr /></blockquote>
According to the BCA office, that's exactly correct. No foul called must by default mean that he shot the "correct balls" and continues to shoot that group. It seems hokey to me, but that's what they say the rule is. That's fine I guess, so they should just put it in the book explicitly. It seems to come up more often than a lot of the other rules that are explicit.

Fred

Rod
02-27-2003, 03:50 PM
After the first ball if the opponent doesn't say anything or call a foul then it's a done deal. Heck I've watched a game of one hole and both were shooting at the wrong pocket. It got turned around and neither player realized it until I mentioned it after the game! The game stood as played.

Rod

Barbara
02-27-2003, 04:21 PM
Tom,

That's known as "stealing a group" and yes, the player shooting at the 8-ball is legitimately shooting at the 8-ball.

The reasoning is this: If the sitting player did not call a foul on the shooting player after the shooting player pocketed the first ball of the sitting player's group, then the sitting player cannot wait until the shooting player is down to the 8-ball and then call a foul. The foul must be called when it occurred.

This is what they told me in Ref School.

Barbara

Wally_in_Cincy
02-28-2003, 01:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
According to the BCA office, that's exactly correct. No foul called must by default mean that he shot the "correct balls" and continues to shoot that group. It seems hokey to me, but that's what they say the rule is. That's fine I guess, so they should just put it in the book explicitly. <font color="red">It seems to come up more often than a lot of the other rules that are explicit. </font color>

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Considering the symbiotic relationship that exists between alchohol and pool I'm surprised it doesn't come up even more often. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

heater451
02-28-2003, 02:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tebjumpper:</font><hr> Tom,

According to those rules- I would think that if player A shoots at the wrong group and continues, player B can call a foul at any time, and player A's turn would end.

In this scenario, player B could probably let player A shoot in the 8-ball, and B would win the game, because player A pocketed the 8-ball while some of his balls (original balls) were still on the table.

Personally, I would notify the other player that he is sinking the wrong balls after his first shot- but that's just me.


Mike <hr /></blockquote>The twist is in the *noticing*, so player A could not allow the 8-ball to be shot in (aside: Player A would not have 'called the pocket' and would lose anyway. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

I am sorry to say, I had a brain fart during a game, with the "suit" change effect. I had BIH, took the hardest shot on the table, and then ran four balls down to the 8, before my opponent said anything.

He apologetically said that he hadn't noticed until then, so I gave him BIH on the 8. I now know better--although I actually still have to clear this as a TAP rule. I also somewhat suspect his character, but I won't really go into that.

I will say, however, that we were handicapped 5 to 3, and he only needed 2 games to win--and I gave him one. The next one, he was on the 8, and I shot down to something like this:

START(%Hk3Z0%KC7U7%Mr4O0%O_7Z2%PR3V7%QC9Y4)END

left him this:

START(%Hr9V4%KC7U7%Mr4O0%Oo5Z2%Pb3Z7%QC9Y4%Uh9Z6%V c7Z5%W`3Z4%XS2V7
%Yq1W1%Zj8Y8%[m7Z2%\j2Z5)END


Shotmaker, or sandbagger? YOU make the call. . . . /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


=================

PoolFan
02-28-2003, 02:55 PM
I've actually had this situation happen to me before. We weren't aware of the the suit change situation. We just started the game over with the original breaker breaking.

I understand how the rules allow for the suit change to happen, but IMO I think that the rules should be tightened up in this situation.