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Predator314
03-01-2003, 05:12 PM
Here's a funny story. I was practicing today and this guy that shoots in the Saturday tournies came in. He wanted to play for some money. We played 4 sets and I won all four. After the 3rd, he took the rack and started hitting himself in the forehead. After the 4th set, he wanted to double the bet. I told him, I would give him a chance to get it back, but I wasn't doubling the bet. He would get it back the same way I got it. He got mad and quit. As I was putting my cue up, I heard "SNAP!". He took his Schon stick and stuck it in the side pocket and snapped the butt in two. Then he took the Predator shaft off what was left and did the same thing to it. I had to laugh at him. He made a complete fool out of himself and trashed $1500 worth of equipment over losing an amount not even close to that. I told him that if I knew he was going to do that, I woulda gave him his money back and took the stick. Oh well. I don't guess he will be around tonight.

Kato
03-01-2003, 05:42 PM
I once saw a guy who was playing $2.00 a game lose $12 in 3 hours, get infuriated over missing a shot and throwing a $400 Viking across the room, breaking it in 4 pieces. Amazing.

Kato~~~respectful of equipment.

Karatemom
03-01-2003, 05:42 PM
Sounds like this guy needs an anger management class. I have never personally seen anyone snap their stick, but have heard numerous stories. It amazes me the amount of money and time that is put into the game and equipment, means nothing to some people. I love what you said: "I told him that if I knew he was going to do that, I woulda gave him his money back and took the stick." You couldn't have said it any better.

Heide

Hopster
03-01-2003, 06:27 PM
My Pop beat another bookmaker out of $500 in nine ball at the golden cue in queens in the 70,s. The guy took the stick and broke it over his knee.
Nobody said anything though as this guy was a hot head to begin with. Funny thing is the guy would have a bad weekend in his business and it wouldnt bother him a bit and im talking big numbers.
Oh well, ya never know what will set a guy off.

nAz
03-01-2003, 06:48 PM
Oh man i thought this Post was about ME. You should have seen me last night and this afternoon, I made a complete fool of myslf over and over and over again, Had nothing to do with Pool either, too bad i may end up doing it again /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Fran Crimi
03-01-2003, 07:31 PM
This is JMO. I found the story rather sad. First, I don't think you helped the situation at all by telling the guy he can win the money back the same way you won it. When you're gambling and your opponent is losing and angry, why antoganize the situation more? It's like kicking a guy when he's down. If you really don't want to double the bet than just say no and leave it at that. As your opponent, I'd be pissed but at least you weren't rubbing my nose it it.

I understand that you worked hard to win the money and you don't owe it to him to let him double the bet. But believe it or not, when there's not a lot of money involved, money players generally do let the guy who's losing double the bet after 3 or 4 sets. If they lose, they'll usually just pay up and quit, but at least they felt they had a shot. Since doubling up is a common practice in money playing, I feel it's important to let the guy know up front that you have no intention of raising the bet. I've seen it done that way and it prevents all kinds of problems.

As for the guy breaking his cue, it's a lot better than throwing a punch at you.

Fran

Hopster
03-01-2003, 07:42 PM
Well Naz im not going to ask what the beef was or is that you have going but do yourself a big favor. Dont do no drinking till you get it settled. It will only make it 10 times worse.
Just my opinion based on past experience is all.

Gerry
03-02-2003, 07:08 AM
I dunno Fran,
That sounds kinda warm n fuzzy to me. When I come across a bad loser it's not up to me to be nice, and if I get under his skin after him being a jerk so be it. He's the whinner. given we should all win and lose with dignity, but this is the real world. BTW the room I where used to play had old junky house cues in a barrell you could buy for 5 bucks and guys would go out back and beat the crap out of a tree to relieve a little tension!...too funny, they'd come back in holding the end of the butt smiling and ready to play....Gerry

Predator314
03-02-2003, 07:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> This is JMO. I found the story rather sad. First, I don't think you helped the situation at all by telling the guy he can win the money back the same way you won it. When you're gambling and your opponent is losing and angry, why antoganize the situation more? It's like kicking a guy when he's down. If you really don't want to double the bet than just say no and leave it at that. As your opponent, I'd be pissed but at least you weren't rubbing my nose it it.

I understand that you worked hard to win the money and you don't owe it to him to let him double the bet. But believe it or not, when there's not a lot of money involved, money players generally do let the guy who's losing double the bet after 3 or 4 sets. If they lose, they'll usually just pay up and quit, but at least they felt they had a shot. Since doubling up is a common practice in money playing, I feel it's important to let the guy know up front that you have no intention of raising the bet. I've seen it done that way and it prevents all kinds of problems.

As for the guy breaking his cue, it's a lot better than throwing a punch at you.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

He's a pretty good player. I just brought my "A" game with me today. He got pretty pushy about wanting to up the bet. I've screwed myself many times before by upping the bet on people that have the ability to beat me. I wasn't mean to him. I know the guy well. I was just stating the facts.

Voodoo Daddy
03-02-2003, 07:32 AM
Sadly...&lt;HAHAHAHA&gt; I have destroyed perfectly good wood for nothing more than a lack of control. As recent as last year when I snapped both shafts on my playing cue and my jump pole. Knowing it wasnt anything more than my inability to control my anger after missing an electric chair shot {which is one that if I miss it EVER...I should be put in the electric chair}!! I have since controlled my horrible temper to the point that if I miss I laugh...strange how life takes U-turns, huh?

wolfsburg2
03-02-2003, 07:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
But believe it or not, when there's not a lot of money involved, money players generally do let the guy who's losing double the bet after 3 or 4 sets. If they lose, they'll usually just pay up and quit, but at least they felt they had a shot. Since doubling up is a common practice in money playing, I feel it's important to let the guy know up front that you have no intention of raising the bet. I've seen it done that way and it prevents all kinds of problems.


Fran <hr /></blockquote>

i disagree whole heartedly. why get bullied into betting more money cuz your up. i think the "house money" theory applies(people think if you are up it's house money, that's b.s. it's your money now), but a smart gambler would not double the bet. if it took me 2 hours to win $100 why risk losing it in 30 minutes because dyou get pushed into it? also i think you are going under the assumption that the loser was a normal person. what if he is that guy who deserves to lose cuz of his attitude? or bullies people on and off of the pool table, etc.

if i was playing with a friend, or even a "freindly" acquaintance i would double the bet, but mainly cuz i am not a big money player, so it would only be a couple of bucks anyway. just my .02

HalSmith
03-02-2003, 08:31 AM
I agree with you completly . If they lose it slow , let them try to win it back slow. Why should I lose it all back on a lucky shot or a bad roll.---Smitty

Fran Crimi
03-02-2003, 09:35 AM
Do you disagree wholeheartedly that he should have told the guy up front that he had no intention of raising the bet?

That's gambling etiquette.

I don't know how many years you've been playing pool, but if you were around the scene up to the early-mid 80's, when there were only one or two major tournaments a year, there was a gambling network around the country that was incredible. You could be in NYC, make a phone call to Detroit to find out about a guy in Florida. And if he didn't know, he'd call someone in S.F. and get the line on the guy.

Back then, if you didn't allow a guy on the ropes to raise the bet, and you didn't say anything to him up front, you would have gotten labeled as a nit. Sorry, but that's the way it is in the money-playing world.

Remember when Archer ran 13 racks on Bustamente for 5k and Bustamante asked to double the bet? Archer could have said no. He didn't. Yep. He lost, too. That's the chance you take.

You have to think ahead when you get into a money match and if you want to put limits on the match you have to state your intentions up front. Either say you don't want to raise the bet or that you only want to play a certain number of sets. The reason this is important is because of fairness. What if Predator314 was the one in the hole and he decided to raise the bet and his opponent agreed...look at the situation now...there's a double standard there. Predator gets to raise the bet but his opponenet has no shot if he's in the hole.

Fran

wolfsburg2
03-02-2003, 09:49 AM
fran,

my opinion is strong on this particular situation. after losing 3 in a row this guy starts banging his head with the rack and then asks to double the bet? no way. the guy is unstable, and it is a lose lose situation in my book. i hear what you are saying about etiquette. i have not been playing pool for long(about a year seriously). so if/when i do gamble with pool, it is with people i know. this type of guy(guy that gets down early, gets mad, and wants to win his life savings back in a hurry), is a bad gambler, and not someone that i would want to accomodate at all. i am sure that based on his antics he doesn't hold much clout as far as getting someone labeld as a "nit"(what's that mean anyway).

that is my view of the situation. i do agree with you in general, when playing a respectable player(no table antics, or horrid mood swings) that you generally should give the courtesy of letting them win their money back, unless a limit was put on sets in the beginning.

mike

Fran Crimi
03-02-2003, 09:58 AM
Being labeled as a nit means you're thought of as a guy who is liable to take the money and run, and that you're a scared player. No one wants to think they may not have a shot at getting their money back and they won't play those types of players.

Yep. That guy may very well have lost it all on his own without anyone's help, but if you as his opponent don't do the right thing from the beginning, you can't say that you didn't contribute.

Fran

wolfsburg2
03-02-2003, 10:12 AM
i think we agree on the main points. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

sliprock
03-02-2003, 10:22 AM
We had an "old timer" around here in the early 90's that had just been released from prison. He served 25 years for cutting a guy's throat over a $2 game of 9 ball..I thought that it was just poolroom folklore, but my mother knew the man and verified the story.

Sid_Vicious
03-02-2003, 10:39 AM
I'm with Fran on this one,,,doubling up after 3-4 sets up fits, and yet if I never have any ideas of doubling, I always state that repeatedly and stick to my guns about it. Players know that much about me by now, or they should...sid~~~thinks that stick snapper did make a fool outta himself though

HalSmith
03-02-2003, 11:29 AM
I didn't say I wouldn't play him and let him have a shot at getting his money back, he's just gonna get it like he lost it, and I was playing back in the early 60's where if you played and lost without paying you got your ass whipped for itor lost your stick,watch or car it was your choice.---Smitty

smfsrca
03-02-2003, 11:58 AM
Predator314
You were right in what you did and don't let Fran Crimi or anybody else tell you any different. The guy you were playing was running a head trip on you, thats the way he wins. He is a typical low class hustling SOB. Frans comments make excuses for the low life and turn you into a bad guy. It is this kind of thinking that made sponsors like Camel and Bud Lite get out of the pool business and why professional pool in the US is in such a sorry state.
Gambling etiquette is BS. Every gambler I have ever met in my life is out for himself, looking for an edge, and doesn't give a rats a** about etiquette.

Fran Crimi
03-02-2003, 12:16 PM
I hear ya, Smitty, but if you were around gambling back in the 60's then I'm sure you know that you've got to let the guy know up front that that's the way you want to play. Then at least the guy has enough information to make a decision as to whether he want's to play that way or not play at all---not that he finds out about it once he's in the hole.

Fran

wolfsburg2
03-02-2003, 12:30 PM
fran, i keep getting the vibe from your posts that you are assuming the his opponent is a legit straight up kind of guy. everything i ahve read about the match states otherwise. in this situation, why let a jerk win back money easier than he lost it. is etiquette slamming the rack against your head, or snappng a pool cue? my only advice to predator, would be to stay away from playing this loose cannon at all costs.

Fran Crimi
03-02-2003, 12:56 PM
Predator didn't say he told they guy no doubling up because he thought the guy was going nuts. He was willing to continue to play the guy as long as the bet stayed the same. What does that tell you?

He didn't seem too concerned about getting out of the match when the guy started hitting himself in the head with the rack. They continued to play another set, at the same bet, of course. Things changed when the guy wanted to double the bet.

That kind of thing is looked at as a move in gambling circles, intentional or not, and if you ask Buddy Hall how he'd feel if someone did that to him (I already did), believe me, you wouldn't want to know the answer.

Fran

SpiderMan
03-02-2003, 01:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Do you disagree wholeheartedly that he should have told the guy up front that he had no intention of raising the bet?

That's gambling etiquette.

<hr /></blockquote>

Then do you also feel it was the other guy's responsibility to warn up front that he planned to hike the bet if he got down a certain amount? Or is there a double standard that restricts only the conservative player's options?

Why should a conservative player have to announce his intentions while the one who likes to double up is free to decide on the fly, secure in the thought that his opponent "must" go along?

Is this just because the "herd" likes to see high-rolling drama? Or is it some notion that the winner's winnings are not really his own until he jumps through all the hoops the loser can specify? What if the loser wanted to quadruple the bet? What if he wanted to go double-or-nothing until he finally got a set? Is there an understood limit (for "gambling etiquette") at doubling the original bet?

SpiderMan

wolfsburg2
03-02-2003, 01:09 PM
i would have stopped playing the guy. just my thing. against someone i respected i would be fair and honorable.
but like i said, i wouldn't play this guy period. just based on what has been said. i do respect your insight, and agree with you, just slight differences. mike /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Fran Crimi
03-02-2003, 01:13 PM
Thanks, Mike. Same here. Sorry...I just edited that post a little but you got your answer in quick. Haha!

Fran

Fran Crimi
03-02-2003, 01:14 PM
Nope. It's the standard to raise the bet. If you go against the standard, you should state that up front.

Fran

wolfsburg2
03-02-2003, 01:19 PM
i try to let it be known for the gate that i will play for x-amount. and i always state that whatever that amount is, is about as much as i am cofortable flaying pool for. so if i am playing for five, i will say you know i don't really like gambling but i can handle 5 a game.....

if i happen to get a pretty good lead, i will then let someone know how much longer i want to play. lets say i am up 30-40 at 5 a game, i'll let the guy/girl know that i only want to play another 2 or three games, so then if they want to double the bet or what ever the case may be, i know i am not walking out losing money. you have the 3 or 4 games to get your money back. now it's time for the player to bring their game if they want their money back. basically that is my defense against getting hustled, or offending someone.

Fran Crimi
03-02-2003, 02:11 PM
There you go...that's fair gambling.

I'm not a big gambler myself and I might say something like, I'll play you 2 sets for $50 each set and the time, and if we split we'll play a rubber for 50 and all the time. This way it's clear that one of us will either win 100 or 50 and things don't get out of hand.

Fran

Popcorn
03-02-2003, 02:47 PM
There is a strategy to betting the money. I am sorry I have to talk about myself, but it makes it easier to make my point. I often play, or used to at least, top players, most of the time with weight. I bet it up pretty good. Many time I have gotten some world beater seriously stuck, to where they are talking themselves. Yelling about raising the bet to something outrages, well you know what I mean. At that point, I have the guys number and may in fact got on to finish him off. I would be crazy to be say, 15 games ahead, with a player going off the air, to raise the bet such, to put him only say 5 or 6 games down. Let me do this and watch this guy come back to life, I will be putting him right back in the game. I am standing on his neck, I am not letting him up. I may be winning in spite of not having the best of it. He took me lightly and now he's stuck and pissed. I want to keep him that way. I beat Mike Sigel bad on a trap bar table. He was screaming, he wanted to change tables, offered me the 6 if I went to a poolroom and played on a 9 footer, he did everything, but buckle down and try harder to beat me. All he did was complain. He thought he was sneaking in and going to steal, little did he know, nobody cared who he was, he couldn't win anyway, not in there on that equipment. Back to my point, you don't want to be a nit of course, but you also don't want to compromise your chances of winning. Are you going to raise the bet with a guy you feel you will ultimately beat. Of course, you hope he has unlimited resources and never quits. In a triple tough game though, you have to manage carefully what you do and when you do it. It could be the difference between winning and losing. It is not black and white. It is also different when playing someone you play with on a regular basis or are friends with. Each case is different.

Fran Crimi
03-02-2003, 03:21 PM
Changing tables? Nope. Don't blame you one bit. Yep. You broke the rules. Glad to hear you're still here to talk about it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I know that you know exactly what you did there. You stuck it to the guy because you felt he was a little too sure of himself going into the match-up with you.

Fran

Hopster
03-02-2003, 03:36 PM
What is it that was wrong with the table that you say he couldnt win ? Im very unfamiliar with bar tables, just never cared for pool in bars, too many idiots for my liking.
I did play on a table in pool sharks the other night that had a brutal swerve to it. I hit a cross table bank perfect but obviously too slow. The ball got to within 4 inches of the pocket and took a walk. My buddy looked at me and laughed and sadi the table beat you on that one. lol
Anyway, whats the deal with a table like youre talking about that a pro like sigel couldnt overcome ?
Just curious.

03-02-2003, 03:53 PM
"As for the guy breaking his cue, it's a lot better than throwing a punch at you."

It better be a hell of a punch. If not the guy will go home with a whole lot less than a light wallet and a broken cue!

Popcorn
03-02-2003, 04:51 PM
Back in the early 70s there were not as many bar tables as there are today. A lot of pool room players stayed away from them. As a result they were not that familiar playing on them. Bar tables were at that time not as nice as they are today. Most bars just stuck the table where they had room for it and it was just something for people to do. Rarely was it cleaned and sometimes there was not even a light over the table, just what ever light there was in the room. On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the worst, this place was a sure 9.
The table was a 7 footer in the corner of the room. There was a pole that came into play, also a jukebox that was on one side. When you were on that side you had to jack up your cue a little over the front of the juke box if you were close to the rail. The juke box by the way was blasting, you could feel the table vibrate. The balls were filthy and the cue ball was one of the giant ones you often found at that time. You could not draw it and if you tried the object ball may jump out of the pocket. You played all position with follow. A bank shot was a complete guess and it may not do the same thing twice. The place was just outside a seaport and even with the air condition on, I don't think the humidity ever got below 80% and it was salt air. You used powder by the can.
There would be a few thousand sailors in town at any one time and this was a place they often came. It was basically like going to a job everyday.
Northern players not used to bar tables and tournament players, could not play in places like that. Even road players would become victims. Don't get me wrong, a player like Sigel would eventually win given enough time, he is a great player, but not right out of the box. My experience has been, these guys are so used to winning and they get spoiled. When they are trapped they don't like it. They want it easy like they are used to, if you do that you are falling into their trap. Why should you? Nowadays, everybody plays good on bar tables and the tables are pretty much as good as pool room tables. They are also money makers for the bar owner and they take good care of them. Believe me, bar table specialists like Three finger Ronnie and Little Sid could beat world class professional players on the bar table back then. Ronnie by the way, robbed Billy Incardona on a bar table one night on Miami beach, I was there. Billy gave Ronnie the 7 ball the next night at the pool room on a nice 9 footer and it was no contest. Just shows you what a difference there is.

Hopster
03-02-2003, 06:40 PM
Thanks Popcorn, that was informative and funny. Now i understand a little better but it must have been funny as hell seeing siegel steaming about like that. lol

Popcorn
03-02-2003, 06:59 PM
I forgot one of the main things, the dirty balls with the big cueball would not cut right. I remember one shot that was really funny. I shot a nine ball down the rail, I was straight in and remember you could not stop the cueball. I shot it slow but it still followed the nine in. We were not playing ball in hand and Mike had a spot shot. The table was small and he is only a few feet from the ball on the spot shot. He shot it and the cueball seemed to cling to the nine ball. It hit the bottom rail a full diamond from the pocket. That was pretty much the end of it. That may have been one of the last games he played

Hopster
03-02-2003, 07:25 PM
One of these days i got to stop in the bar down the street from me and hit them around a little and see how noticeable the differences are from the big tables, just for a laugh.
Anyway, thanks again Popcorn, good story.

John G
03-02-2003, 09:14 PM
Yep, been there-done that. After an accident I was trying to learn to play from my wheelchair. My left side wasn't working like it should, I couldn't reach my shots and on top of that I had to play sidearm. I would get so frustated and angry the only thing that would calm me down was to shatter the shaft. In the first two years I'll bet I broke 30 shafts. Not very smart, but it felt right at the time.

Lucky for me I could just wheel out to my shop and make a new one. My biggest regret is all that terrific shaft wood I trashed. Wish I had it now, can't get wood like that anymore. I'm much better at controling myself now. LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif John G

snipershot
03-02-2003, 10:02 PM
At my young age I often become enraged playing pool, it really makes me feel like hitting something or breaking something. But I would never break or damage my own equipment, that's downright stupid. Oh well, I guess this guy will regret his actions for a long time to come.

SpiderMan
03-02-2003, 11:34 PM
Nope to which question? It just doesn't seem kosher that someone could say "double or nothing" when down, and do that until he can quit even. I don't think that would fly anywhere around here.

BTW, I was just reading the "Gambling Ethics" thread, which addresses a very similar topic, and it seems the majority feel that "quitting ahead" is no sin. I'm pretty much in agreement with them. If I were a gambler (I'm not, but I consort with plenty) and four sets up, I wouldn't agree to an adjustment in wager that would now have me only one or two sets up.

SpiderMan

Fred Agnir
03-03-2003, 08:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Predator314:</font><hr> As I was putting my cue up, I heard "SNAP!". He took his Schon stick and stuck it in the side pocket and snapped the butt in two<hr /></blockquote>I was playing in a college tournament that had no prize money back in the days. My first round opponent was on the hill, and missed the case 8. I ended up clawing back and beat him. He proceeded to snap his stick in half and didn't bother coming back to the B-side.

Another time, I was playing a guy socially. No betting. We played 8-ball, race to 8 for nothing but bragging rights. At 7-0, he quit, went outside, and proceeded to beat the living hell out of his Scruggs. Anger management would be helpful.

Fred

Popcorn
03-03-2003, 09:04 AM
It is physiological edge to have a player stuck. It often makes them very nervous. You are letting them off the hook if you reduce the amount of games they are stuck. It is not the money, just the amount of work and time they know they have to do now, to win. You want to keep them like that. This really only applies to a very tough game, If you feel you will win, you should be confident enough to raise it, but it is no obligation. You may also have reached your comfort zone as far as betting goes. Not everyone wants to be playing $100.00 a game, even if it is a lock. I used to like the way Winnie Beanie gambled. He could play $20.00 one pocket all day and even if he was losing, not try to high roll the other player if they were just a $20.00 player, he respected that. He also played with the same enthusiasm for $20.00 as for $500.00. I always liked that, it thought it showed a real love for the game. I never cared for the player that would knock someone because they don't bet much. I have a few guys I play $5.00 and $10.00 one pocket with. I know they don't bet much, we play fair games and both of us get a chance to play a little. I get some good practice, people get to sweat a game, we often critique the game after it has been played and it is another way to learn. I learn stuff all the time.

SpiderMan
03-03-2003, 09:41 AM
I don't normally gamble on pool because of the mind games I'd rather avoid, but I would possibly gamble with someone who had your attitude.

SpiderMan

Fran Crimi
03-03-2003, 09:49 AM
I didn't say you should double the bet with your opponent just because he wants to. What I said was that if you have no intention of allowing any raising of bets, you should state that up front, because raising bets is the norm in gambling. It's not fair to inform your opponent that late in the game when he's stuck 3 or 4 sets.

The logic behind that is obviously the double-standard tactic which is if you're behind you get to raise the bet if you want, but you'r opponent can't when he's behind. All that has to be straightened out up front if you want a fair gambling match.

Sure, it gives you a big edge if you don't say anything up front and you're opponent wants to double or raise. Now you get them angry and frustrated, because they didn't know that from the beginning. It's a very strong psychological tactic. I know some gamblers who are no longer around because of doing that to the wrong person.

If you screw with the wrong guy, they're going to get you back no matter what book knowledge or logic you try to explain to them. You screwed 'em and that's all they care about.

Good luck trying to explain your logic to a guy who's in a rage. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

Perk
03-03-2003, 10:38 AM
Well, I have read all the posts on this and wish C.C. was here for his opinion. One of his points he has stated previously is: Always Control the Bet.

That point can go both ways. First, if you are in Predator's shoes you play at the level/amount you want to play at. Since he got up on this person 4 sets, the other person wanted to double. Doubling the bet is very common, but Predator was in the right by not doubling. See, he can always control the bet. There are NO LAWS regarding gambling. It wouldnt be very smart to win 4 sets in 2 hours, to turn around and lose 2 in an hour and be back to even.

If your on the other end and agree to gamble, and you get stuck 4 sets. Sure, you can ask to double the bet, or up the bet. This shouldnt be expected though. If this person was tryin to hustle, he/she will have to just bear down and get it back the hard way. It is TOO COMMON to have someone lose or play badly at the beginning of a gambling game, with intentions to get someone into a "double" "raise" the stacks game that they are not used to.

Fran made a point that a person would be classified as a "Nit" if they didnt give them a chance to get their money back. There is no rule that states that that chance has to be at that moment. It would be different if your playin a guy for 20.00 a game 9ball and you lose 200.00 (10 games) to him, and the next time you play him he will only play for 5.00 a game, or worse, not play ya at all.

Just my thoughts. I use the rule of thumb: "Never let your opponent win the money back faster than it took you to get it"

03-03-2003, 10:46 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Kato:</font><hr> I once saw a guy who was playing $2.00 a game lose $12 in 3 hours, get infuriated over missing a shot and throwing a $400 Viking across the room, breaking it in 4 pieces. Amazing.

Kato~~~respectful of equipment. <hr /></blockquote>

been there. when i see the other guy getting there, i usually just pick a house cue off the wall and hand it to them. usually gets a laugh and lightens things-up.

almost had the t.d. call an unsportsmanlike on a guy in the league tourney yesterday who was going thru all kinds of hystrionics. i'm down on my shot and this idiot is putting on a nut-case performance. actually had one of my teammates do that. i'm on the next table and he's throwing his $500 pred against tables, walls etc.

we talked. ain't happened since. if it does, i'll break his damn cue for him.

dan

Fran Crimi
03-03-2003, 10:56 AM
Ok, take for example, a guy who goes around scamming senior citizens out of their life savings. Do you think his ethics would be the same as yours?

It's the same for gambling. You have an array of different types of people who are looking to earn money by shooting pool. Do you think their ethics would always be above board?

The kind of gambling I'm talking about is a fair match-up for money. No psychological garbage, no moves, no crap. The kind you see when guys like Archer, Bustamente and Reyes, play. It's all up front with these guys. No last minute maneuvering.

You'll find people who take pride in setting up traps. They'll tell you that it's ok to do some of the stuff you've read here. They'll tell you to do whatever you can get away with. These types of people are thieves first, then pool players. They live in every town and if you hang around with one long enough, they'll start to make sense to you, especially if you don't know the right way.

I'm telling you that there is an ethical way to play pool for money. Keep it fair and you won't have any trouble. That's the logic and that's why some people don't have to run from town to town, make their kill and then get out of town as fast as they can.

Fran

Popcorn
03-03-2003, 12:49 PM
I just want to expand on this gambling ethic issue a little. Between friends, maybe players that can't keep it objective should not be playing each other. When you are playing a stranger who comes around looking to play, the rules are a little different. He should not expect to get accurate information about how players play. He may be double steered, have players stall in front of him to get a spot. be asked for spots by players that play strong and so on. There is honor among thieves but don't expect total honesty. I have been double steered many times, in fact you may try to trick the steer artist because he may not know as much about how you play as he thinks. I got doubled steered once and it was pretty elaborate. I was in a place playing and afterward I was told about a guy that was about 20 miles away, that likes to play and will go off. Now a player that will go off, is much better then just a guy that will play. You are not afraid of a tough game, as much as you are of playing a guy capable of winning that won't lose anything himself. Anyway, I know something is not right because they are to eager to tell me about the guy. I go there and sure enough he is there, but it is not who they said it was. It is a guy named Steve Gumphries (sp?) who is a friend of mine. He was sent there to intercept me. We pretended not to know each other and made a game with me getting weight. Not a word had to be said, it was understood, because these busybodies were backing him he would not win. Am I ashamed of this, hard to say, they were trying to victimize me. They were also getting involved with stuff they knew nothing about, based on greed. Did they get what they had coming, I can't judge, I am just telling you the story? Would I do something like that today? No, as you get older your values change and you may even become a little different person in many ways. I refrain from telling stories most of the time, but I think this one may be of interest.

SPetty
03-03-2003, 01:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote snipershot:</font><hr> But I would never break or damage my own equipment, that's downright stupid. <hr /></blockquote>Hi snipershot,

I agree - downright stupid.

At league last week, one of the other team members lost his temper and slammed his cue into the upside-down bar stool where his teammates were keeping all their cues. My break cue happened to be there and sure enough, I've now got a nasty little nick in my cue.

It is stupid to lose your temper and damage yours or other people's equipment. If someone on my team behaved that way, I would no longer be on the same team. If my captain didn't fix it or kick him off, I'd quit.

I've put a band-aid over the gouge... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

AndyG
03-03-2003, 01:15 PM
Hi Fran, In my opinion, both sides of this discussion have raised interesting points. I agree that, all other things being equal, raising (not necessarily doubling) the bet in that situation would be the 'right' thing to do. By all other things being equal,I mean if the guy has been a good guy to gamble with, ie no shark moves or mind games of his own, I would have given the courtesy of raising the bet. However if he's been a real prick so far, he'd probably not get the time of day from me.

I also agree with Popcorn. If I've beat a guy 4 straight sets, I've got every reason to hope that he does want to raise it, and to hope that he just won the lottery.

BTW, gambling ehtics had nothing to do with Archer raising the bet at Bustamantes behest. Archer was down 1 set when he won the 2nd with the 13 rack run. They were even when they raised the bet, and if Archer hadn't thought he had the best of it, he'd never have raised it.

Good to see you posting again, Fran. You were missed.
AndyG

jbullerjr
03-03-2003, 02:44 PM
This is something I have never understoud about gambling amongest pool players.

If I am winning I am supposed to double, triple even quaddruple the bet so the other man can get even.

If I am winning I am expected to give up a bigger spot so the other man can get even.

It also seems to be generally excepted (at least around here) that you might not get paid for the last set.

I mean hell, if I am supposed to change the bet, the spot, the table etc...just so the other guy has a chance to get even, why even gamble in the first place?

Predator314
03-03-2003, 03:20 PM
In hindsight, I should have doubled the bet. But not because I owed it to him. Just because he got beat, there is no law saying I have to make it easier for him to get his money back. With Fran's theory, I could play Archer and keep losing, but doubling the bet. Eventually I would beat him and break even and quit. It might take me being 15 million in the hole, but all I have to do is win one set. That's nuts.

The only reason that I should have doubled that bet is because in his state of mind, he would have never been able to win a game. Then, we might have ended up fighting at the end of it all because he would have been broke, without his Schon Cue, and very pissed.

Hopster
03-03-2003, 05:46 PM
Theres maybe another side to not letting the guy double up. Maybe the guys not showing his true speed and dumps the first few just so he can get you to double the bet , then he starts winning and before you know it , youre in the hole fighting to get out. I know this wasnt the case in this situation but its always possible with guys you dont know.
Im sure this is no big revelation to anyone here either but just thought i would throw it in.
You got him stuck, leave him stuck, you dont know him and you dont owe him nothing. Up the bet when you got enough of his cash and not before.
Just my take.

03-03-2003, 06:00 PM
I'm just a know nothing newbie... but I though they called it gambling because there is a chance you will win or lose money.

I guess the fact that people get killed over this kind of thing... and some people even seem to consider that part of the deal and almost condone that sort of thing... is reason enough to not gamble at all.

snipershot
03-03-2003, 06:01 PM
I would've gave this guy a piece of my mind for damaging your break cue. I guess some people just can't handle themselves when they get angry.

One of the most common things I see players get angry over is when they shoot bad. This is probably the worst thing you can do to fix your game, It gives some players one hell of a break but doesn't fix their bad shot.

Did you talk to the idiot that damaged your break cue?

Fran Crimi
03-03-2003, 06:37 PM
Hi Andy, nice to see you again, too. I was there for the Archer-Bustamante match. The way I remember it was that Archer ran out the first set. Bustamante asked to double the bet when he was down one set. He won the 2nd which put him up 5k.

Of course...nobody should allow doubling bets if they think they can't hold up. That's what giving notice is all about. You tell your opponent how many more sets or games you're in for before you quit and you leave your opponent an option to either raise or get out. Usually you'll leave yourself a winner, but still giving your opponent an option to recover some of their losses. That's the fair way. Now, if you're looking to rob the guy because you think he's a jerk, then it's not gambling anymore. It's personal.

Fran

Predator314
03-03-2003, 09:43 PM
I didn't quit on the guy. He quit on me. I told him we could play as long as he wanted.

03-03-2003, 10:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I just want to expand on this gambling ethic issue a little. Between friends, maybe players that can't keep it objective should not be playing each other. When you are playing a stranger who comes around looking to play, the rules are a little different. He should not expect to get accurate information about how players play. He may be double steered, have players stall in front of him to get a spot. be asked for spots by players that play strong and so on. There is honor among thieves but don't expect total honesty. I have been double steered many times, in fact you may try to trick the steer artist because he may not know as much about how you play as he thinks. I got doubled steered once and it was pretty elaborate. I was in a place playing and afterward I was told about a guy that was about 20 miles away, that likes to play and will go off. Now a player that will go off, is much better then just a guy that will play. You are not afraid of a tough game, as much as you are of playing a guy capable of winning that won't lose anything himself. Anyway, I know something is not right because they are to eager to tell me about the guy. I go there and sure enough he is there, but it is not who they said it was. It is a guy named Steve Gumphries (sp?) who is a friend of mine. He was sent there to intercept me. We pretended not to know each other and made a game with me getting weight. Not a word had to be said, it was understood, because these busybodies were backing him he would not win. Am I ashamed of this, hard to say, they were trying to victimize me. They were also getting involved with stuff they knew nothing about, based on greed. Did they get what they had coming, I can't judge, I am just telling you the story? Would I do something like that today? No, as you get older your values change and you may even become a little different person in many ways. I refrain from telling stories most of the time, but I think this one may be of interest. <hr /></blockquote>

excellent story. really good and very on-point. if there is still a point. bring more.

one of the questions seemed to be "is it ok not to go along with doubling the bet?" another was on double or nothing which is, of course, different.

i sought the advice of several consultants on this subject. all very qualified and all qualified the answer. mostly based on who you're playing, how you're doing, phase of the moon and other stuff.

seems to be that, if you're shooting another regular at your room then you don't like to be known as someone who just pulls-up and runs with the cash anytime he gets up. by the same token, if you're not into lasting relationships, christmas cards and like that then; you are assumed to be able to quit anytime and accept or refuse any change in the terms. no b.s., it's purely up to you and nothing should be expected.

a lot of this stuff is intuitive; if you're beating someone like a drum and you want to keep up the beat then you better give some weight or he's gone. stuff like that.


bottom line? my consultants seem to advise: "it depends".

dan...or not.

Irish
03-03-2003, 10:25 PM
I gamble a fair bit and I think Fran is wrong. If I start a session with someone for $50 a set then that is what we are playing for. If the person I am playing wants some clause that says if he is down then he gets to double the bet then he bloody well better specify that before the sets start. It is not my porogative to tell him before hand that he is not guarenteed the ability to double the bet when I am up. I agree that you should not quit the guy when you are up, but there is no hidden rule that he has the right to start doubling the bet. Changes in the bet by either player in either situation are crap IMO. If a person is up he does NOT have the right to drop or raise the bet amount on his opponent unless both agree. Same goes for the person who is down, he does not have the right to raise or lower the bet amount unless both agree. If one person suddenly wants to change the bet amount and the other does not then the set is over or else they continue playing for the amount they started at.

Fran Crimi
03-03-2003, 11:01 PM
Who says you shouldn't quit winners? Of course you can. Depends on where you stand. If you're playing 50 a set and your up 600, should you feel obligated to play all night until the guy quits? Why not just be fair about it? It's clear your the winner, you've got his money, if he want's to double the bet at that time why not tell him you'll go another 3 sets at 100 a set and then you're done for the night? So you're either up 300 or 900. That's not unfair. It's not like you're going to hand the guy 300. You're playing to win.

This 'sorry I've got you stuck and too bad on you' mentality...that's just bad business.

And if you're playing a guy cheap, like for 10 a set and you've got him stuck 100 and you won't let him raise the bet...you're a nit. (not you personally. LOL!)

Fran

jbullerjr
03-04-2003, 04:51 AM
Ok, lets try this,

You go to work for a telemarketer, selling widgets, he agrees to pay you the whole $100 profit per sale.

Close to the end of the day, after working very hard and making $600, your boss comes up and says

"Since this is the generally accepted rule and you did not say that I can't do this, here is what we are going to do...I will now pay you $300 per sale and charge you $300 per unsuccessful phone call. If you refuse to do this you will be fired and not be able to work here anymore, as a matter of fact, we might just cut your throat. I mean after all, you have to give me a chance to get my money back."

WTH???

bluewolf
03-04-2003, 05:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Who says you shouldn't quit winners? Of course you can. Depends on where you stand. If you're playing 50 a set and your up 600, should you feel obligated to play all night until the guy quits? Why not just be fair about it? It's clear your the winner, you've got his money, if he want's to double the bet at that time why not tell him you'll go another 3 sets at 100 a set and then you're done for the night? So you're either up 300 or 900. That's not unfair. It's not like you're going to hand the guy 300. You're playing to win.

This 'sorry I've got you stuck and too bad on you' mentality...that's just bad business.

And if you're playing a guy cheap, like for 10 a set and you've got him stuck 100 and you won't let him raise the bet...you're a nit. (not you personally. LOL!)

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Not being a gambler, this thread has been interesting. These comments of Fran's ring true to me. It feels that when professionals are gambling that there is a definate etiquette in place. In 'barroom gambling' people may follow professional etiquette or not and this inconsistency in practice may add to the problem ie- misunderstandings and short tempers.

Laura

Fran Crimi
03-04-2003, 07:47 AM
Harold, I appreciate your analogy, but it's hard to compare another profession with pool gambling. It's got it's own culture and it's own set of rules.

Try this: Think back to when people first started gambling at pool--all the way back to the beginning. Don't you think they tried the same ways you all are describing here? What I've been explaining about gambling etiquette is the result of decades and decades of people making mistakes and learning from them. One person didn't sit down one day and say, OK, I'm going to make up some rules and everyone is supposed to follow them. That's not how this evolved.

I'm sure you heard all those stories about people getting their thumbs broken or beat up or even killed over the years. What do you think was causing all this? There were lots of things, and people learned from these things over the years.

Use your common sense. This is not casino gambling. You're dealing with another human being when you play them for money. Not only do you have to protect your money, but you have to protect yourself, and if that means giving your opponent a little leeway at the appropriate time, then do it.

If you get greedy, it will eventually catch up with you. I guarantee it.

Fran

Popcorn
03-04-2003, 12:25 PM
One of the differences with pool as compared to other forms of gambling is, with pool you have been beaten directly by your opponent. You can't rationalize it off to bad luck or as in golf or bowling just blame it on the course. It is head to head competition and in many cases can become personal. A gambling match very often ends when one player must admit they can't win, they in fact have been KOed. Big ego thing, It does not take much to elevate it to the next step of fighting, with the right people involved.

Kato
03-04-2003, 02:26 PM
See the playing tournaments on Xtacy thread.

Kato

Rod
03-04-2003, 04:16 PM
When two people start gambling there is no rule that states you have to change anything. Most games take place with each one thinking their going to win. The after thought of doubling the bet because he was so far stuck is his problem. He can whine and run to mommy and say this guy didn't give me a chance to get my money back. Instead he busted his cue. Well you did give him that chance but he declined. Some situations you have to go with your gut instinct. Your not under any obligation to possibly change it in his favor. It could be you in the same situation and the other guy refuses to double the bet or even quits. You never know what will happen in "recreational" gambling.

From someone who has gambled a lot it is customary to raise the bet but you don't have to double the bet. Say if you were playing for 30, raise it to 40. Hey, you don't owe him anything and the situation could be reversed. He was out to get your money and come up short. Doubling the bet is usually a scare tactic and it works sometimes when they get you out of your comfort zone, I know it's worked for me many times. If the guy doesn't go for it, it's my decision to keep playing or not. Did he owe me that opportunity, well it's hard to say but "you" don't know what the situation was. From your post the guy sounded like a nut case and it "could" have ended you having all of his money and he still breaks his cue! You have no idea what this guy might do, unless you knew him very well and even that is not a guarantee. Every situation is different and it's not your fault. Some players that lose just can't stand to not have things go there way. Then they will make you out to be the bad guy when they were probably trying to rob you. There is not all that many gentelmen when gambling on a game of pool. You did learn something though, set the guide lines before the game.

~~~~ as dan's advisors told him---- it depends

SpiderMan
03-04-2003, 04:45 PM
To everything the boss said.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> When two people start gambling there is no rule that states you have to change anything. Most games take place with each one thinking their going to win. The after thought of doubling the bet because he was so far stuck is his problem. He can whine and run to mommy and say this guy didn't give me a chance to get my money back. Instead he busted his cue. Well you did give him that chance but he declined. Some situations you have to go with your gut instinct. Your not under any obligation to possibly change it in his favor. It could be you in the same situation and the other guy refuses to double the bet or even quits. You never know what will happen in "recreational" gambling.

From someone who has gambled a lot it is customary to raise the bet but you don't have to double the bet. Say if you were playing for 30, raise it to 40. Hey, you don't owe him anything and the situation could be reversed. He was out to get your money and come up short. Doubling the bet is usually a scare tactic and it works sometimes when they get you out of your comfort zone, I know it's worked for me many times. If the guy doesn't go for it, it's my decision to keep playing or not. Did he owe me that opportunity, well it's hard to say but "you" don't know what the situation was. From your post the guy sounded like a nut case and it "could" have ended you having all of his money and he still breaks his cue! You have no idea what this guy might do, unless you knew him very well and even that is not a guarantee. Every situation is different and it's not your fault. Some players that lose just can't stand to not have things go there way. Then they will make you out to be the bad guy when they were probably trying to rob you. There is not all that many gentelmen when gambling on a game of pool. You did learn something though, set the guide lines before the game.

~~~~ as dan's advisors told him---- it depends <hr /></blockquote>

Fran Crimi
03-04-2003, 05:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote houstondan:</font><hr>
excellent story. really good and very on-point. if there is still a point. bring more.

one of the questions seemed to be "is it ok not to go along with doubling the bet?" another was on double or nothing which is, of course, different.

i sought the advice of several consultants on this subject. all very qualified and all qualified the answer. mostly based on who you're playing, how you're doing, phase of the moon and other stuff.

seems to be that, if you're shooting another regular at your room then you don't like to be known as someone who just pulls-up and runs with the cash anytime he gets up. by the same token, if you're not into lasting relationships, christmas cards and like that then; you are assumed to be able to quit anytime and accept or refuse any change in the terms. no b.s., it's purely up to you and nothing should be expected.

a lot of this stuff is intuitive; if you're beating someone like a drum and you want to keep up the beat then you better give some weight or he's gone. stuff like that.


bottom line? my consultants seem to advise: "it depends".

dan...or not. <hr /></blockquote>


I'm interested in the part where your consultants said (your interpretation, of course) that if you're not into any lasting relationships, Christmas cards, Valentine's or Mother's Day gifts, etc... then you are assumed (by the world?)to be able to quit anytime and accept or refuse any change in bet.

The "it depends" part is very interesting also.

So, what I'm getting from this is if you like the guy or you are concerned about your reputation, or if you feel you need to give a little to keep a fish on the line, it's ok to cut him some slack.

But if you don't like the guy, or if you could care less about your reputation, or if you can get away with keeping the fish hooked without risking anything of your own, then by all means, screw him.

Did I get that right? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

03-04-2003, 06:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>So, what I'm getting from this is if you like the guy or you are concerned about your reputation, or if you feel you need to give a little to keep a fish on the line, it's ok to cut him some slack.

But if you don't like the guy, or if you could care less about your reputation, or if you can get away with keeping the fish hooked without risking anything of your own, then by all means, screw him.

Did I get that right? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

it depends.

dan /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif ...i'm getting dizzy. what was choice 2 part 3 again???

03-04-2003, 06:35 PM
Your gettin dizzy, I am about to fall over. You guys have got this thing all wrong, if the chump wont take da bait &amp; allow himself to conned &amp; taken to da cleaners, he need a little attitude adjustment, I run up &amp; clamp my jaws on his cahoonies, den da mark begins to pay attention to ya, and now his heart &amp; mind follows along in total complicity to your previous thoughts &amp; suggestions. When in doubt, ask old Wonder Dog. What in the hell does that vini vidi crap mean, he wont tell me?
Wonder Dog, I take on all challengers at the Hopkins, the ATM machine is right out front boys....Bring some cash, cool green, lettace.

Fran Crimi
03-04-2003, 08:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote houstondan:</font><hr>

...i'm getting dizzy. what was choice 2 part 3 again??? <hr /></blockquote>


Choice 2 part 3?

Screw him.

Hope that helps.

Fran