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L.S. Dennis
03-04-2003, 11:58 PM
I know that all instructors advise beginners (or anyone else for that matter) to stay away from the 'slip stroke'like the plague. Yet Jimmy Moore was supposed the most beautiful slip stroke of anyone who ever attemped it.

Jimmy Moore's success with this aside, is there any loigical reason why someone would try to develope one of these strokss?

03-05-2003, 12:36 AM
You cannot "learn" this.It would be to challenge Providence to say anyone could teach it.The slip stroke is one of the most beautiful to watch.Cowboy Jimmy Moore and Steve Mizerak have this talent.Watch the Miz very closely and you'll see it.Perhaps the Almighty has not deemed us worthy for such a gift.We should remain in the realm of mere mortals.
You will develop the sense of touch neccessary for your stroke,it will be as beautiful as any slipstroke.


c /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gifajunfats

#### leonard
03-05-2003, 07:17 AM
Mosconi had a 3 inch slip while Jimmy went to the back of his cue. The advantage to the slip stroke it delays the hit impulse to your brain. Most players never really improve because of that. What is the hit impulse just watch players at contact you see cues dipping,veering anything but a straight smooth follow thru, take that same person and have them slip and they have already hit the cueball before their brain says veer.####

Carlton31698
03-05-2003, 08:25 AM
Leonard.
That makes a lot of since, I have never thought of that.
There used to be a player named R. Simpson (sp) that shot with a 4 to 6 inch slip. He was a very strong short stop (he got the 7 from average pro players). His stroke was amazing to watch.

Yuppie
03-05-2003, 09:07 AM
New guy here...what exactly is a "slip stroke"?

03-05-2003, 09:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Yuppie:</font><hr> New guy here...what exactly is a "slip stroke"? <hr /></blockquote>It's when the grip hand slips to a different position on the butt during the final stroke before striking the cueball. The grip hand is relaxed, allowing the cue to slide forward or backward (depending on the direction of the stroke) in the hand before the grip is tightened to catch the cue again and deliver the stroke.

David

Yuppie
03-05-2003, 09:35 AM
without some serious practice, this sounds like it could be a most inconsitent way of stroking.

03-05-2003, 09:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Yuppie:</font><hr> without some serious practice, this sounds like it could be a most inconsitent way of stroking. <hr /></blockquote>Precisely. That's why it generally isn't taught, but rather learned by feel by the relatively few players who use it.

Rod
03-05-2003, 10:21 AM
Well put Leonard, I've always felt it gives me a better sense of inner rythm and timing. Impact happens well before it would in a normal stroke so it is all acceleration and no "moves" through the cue ball. To me it is a 1----2-----3 timing. The hit impulse is a 1--2-3 timing. That short space at the 3 is the maneuver you see at the c/b plus there is not the separation at 2 so it is on the quick side also. Having said that I think very few players would adapt well especially after playing for years with a typical stroke. It more of a case of it becomes natural when you first start playing. It also helps when the two best players in town use the stroke which became a part of me when I first started playing.

For those that have never had the pleasure of watching the late great Jimmy (Cowboy) Moore your truly missing what I call poetry in motion, it was and still is just beautiful to watch. Of course the shortened up version by Mosconi was pretty sweet too!

I'm not selling this, in fact quite the opposite but it is fun to watch.


Rod

Rod
03-05-2003, 10:53 AM
Let me explain this from one that has used it all my pool life. Before the stroke starts back there is a slight pause at the c/b which is normal for many players. On the backstroke there is a slight increase of pressure in the bridge hand around the cue. When the back hand starts back it slips on the cue, could be from 1 to 6 inches in general. There is a very slight increase of pressure in the back hand and at the same time the bridge hand relaxes to finish the backswing. The rest is all smooth acceleration through the c/b. Slip-strokers may have the cue slide forwards at the end but that is well after impact and due to a relaxed grip. A stroke that lets the cue slip forwards to the cue ball serves another purpose and may serve to deaden a shot.

It would serve the pool playing community well if they had such a relaxed grip and not use the backward slip or slip-stroke. That is unless one really adapted to the method. The biggest killer of what would be a good stroke is tension in the shooting hand/arm!

Rod

Irish
03-05-2003, 01:07 PM
My stroke was 100% self taught in the basement of my grandparents house on their ancient non-slate pool table. Somehow I developed a slip stroke right from the start. I love the stroke, the throwing effect of the stroke takes away any possible yips I see other players have. I do believe my learning curve is a little longer then players who use a standard stroke but the power in a slip stroke when used right and the playing I can do when the rythm is right and I am lose has a higher payoff then the standard stroke.

bluewolf
03-05-2003, 01:25 PM
This sounds like something a person like me would have to see to conceptualize. Anyone care to make a little video clip?

Laura

smfsrca
03-05-2003, 01:50 PM
Here is my take on the slip stroke.
Not much has been written about the slip stroke. I used to play with such a stroke but don't anymore. There is no particular advantage to using this stroke that can't be accomplished without it.
I'll describe exactly what a slip stroke is by first describing a normal or non-slip stroke. In a normal stroke we define the trigger as the point in the stroke at which the cue tip makes contact with the cue ball. The best trigger point is generally acknowledged as being near where the bottom of the arc is in a pendulum style swing. If the bottom of that swing is reached before the tip strikes the ball you are triggering to soon, if it occurs after you strike the ball you are triggering to late. Trigger timing is corrected by adjusted the grip forward or backward. The slip stroke is simply a player who initially grips the cue to far forward and must slip back to the correct position for an ideal trigger. It is more commonly seen amongst older straight pool players then modern players, perhaps because Mosconi is said to have had such a stroke.
Another effect of a slip stroke is to slightly relax the grip on the final backstroke allowing the cue to fall onto the fingers relaxing any pressure on the thumb for a smoother forward delivery.

Irish
03-05-2003, 01:56 PM
Easier just to tell you how to do it. Get a cue with Irish linen, as slick linen as you can find. Grip the cue at the front of the linen and get down on the cueball (you dont have to shoot at any object ball to try the stroke). You want to have the contact of the tip to the cueball in the 88-90 degree range for the stroke, same as non-slip strokes. The backstroke I use only my pointer finger and thumbon the grip, the rest of the fingers are lose. On the forward part of the stroke the pointer finger and thumb lossen and the middle, ring and pinky finger then are the major fingers that the cue then slips through. It has a transition like that for me from the thumb and pointer finger to the other three, I am not sure if other players with the slip stroke have it the same. On my stroke the cue slides about 2 inches and then my middle and ring finger catch the cue (the pinky stays lose along with the thumb and pointer finger.

OK, that came out alot more complex then I wanted it to be, but I tested out the stroke as I wrote that since I could not say exactly what happend without testing it. It is completely natural feeling to me but it is not a planned thing, the stroke just happens that way. I really doubt you could see all the slight things that are happening through video. Just relize the cue is slipping forward in the stroking hand at about the time the cue contacts the ball and then slips forward after the contact abit. The slip starts very close to when the contact happens for me.

Jay M
03-05-2003, 02:00 PM
You're a bit off in your description. A slip stroke starts with the shooting hand holding the cue where the "normal" stroke would have it. On the final backswing, the shooter lets the cue slide (slip) through his/her hand several inches before re-establishing a grip on the cue while continuing the backswing in a fluid motion. This results in a final hand position further back on the cue than normal. Pat Howey has a pretty drastic one, letting the cue slip all the way through his hand and grasping it just before it would fall out of his hand.

Jay M

bluewolf
03-05-2003, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Irish:</font><hr> Easier just to tell you how to do it. Get a cue with Irish linen, as slick linen as you can find. Grip the cue at the front of the linen and get down on the cueball (you dont have to shoot at any object ball to try the stroke). You want to have the contact of the tip to the cueball in the 88-90 degree range for the stroke, same as non-slip strokes. The backstroke I use only my pointer finger and thumbon the grip, the rest of the fingers are lose. On the forward part of the stroke the pointer finger and thumb lossen and the middle, ring and pinky finger then are the major fingers that the cue then slips through. It has a transition like that for me from the thumb and pointer finger to the other three, I am not sure if other players with the slip stroke have it the same. On my stroke the cue slides about 2 inches and then my middle and ring finger catch the cue (the pinky stays lose along with the thumb and pointer finger.

OK, that came out alot more complex then I wanted it to be, but I tested out the stroke as I wrote that since I could not say exactly what happend without testing it. It is completely natural feeling to me but it is not a planned thing, the stroke just happens that way. I really doubt you could see all the slight things that are happening through video. Just relize the cue is slipping forward in the stroking hand at about the time the cue contacts the ball and then slips forward after the contact abit. The slip starts very close to when the contact happens for me. <hr /></blockquote>

When the cue goes forward after contact, I thought that was called 'throwing the cue'. This is why this is hard for me to understand. I have such a light grip that I cannot use irish linen or the cue slips back and forward and drives me bonkers. By using wood, it doesnt slip much at all exept on the follow, the cue sometimes gets thrown a bit. It was my understanding that this was different than a slip stroke.

Maybe when scott comes he can show me the difference. SIGH /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod
03-05-2003, 04:11 PM
Buy a tape from accustats or whom ever sells them with Jimmy Moore playing. I'd suggest one with him and Mosconi but you may not get to see "both" of them play a lot. They did have a habit of running a ton of balls. By all means watch Moore though. The other stroke mentioned is a throwing motion, but your hand does remain on the cue.

Rod

Rod
03-05-2003, 04:34 PM
I've been trying to ween myself away from the stroke but it is still there to fair degree. My hand is generally forward at address to a degree but at impact it can be well before the bottom of the arc. It is somewhat individual.

Rod

#### leonard
03-06-2003, 07:13 AM
Jay are you sure Pat is slip stroking or is he doing an Irving Crane of throwing the cue at the cueball then catching it. Which is another interesting stroke.####

Paul_Mon
03-06-2003, 08:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jay M:</font><hr> Pat Howey has a pretty drastic one, letting the cue slip all the way through his hand and grasping it just before it would fall out of his hand.

Jay M <hr /></blockquote>

Jay,
Funny you should mention Pat. I've got to agree that he has the longest slip stroke of any that I've ever seen. It always amazed me to watch him play. I've witnessed Pat run 100 many times and on one occasion when the tables were freshly recovered watched him run over 200. He's retired and relocated to Florida, I certainly miss having him around here.

Paul Mon

bluewolf
03-06-2003, 11:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote #### leonard:</font><hr> Jay are you sure Pat is slip stroking or is he doing an Irving Crane of throwing the cue at the cueball then catching it. Which is another interesting stroke.#### <hr /></blockquote>

What is this irving crane thing? I thought 'throwing the cue' was what a person with a good stroke is supposed to do. Did I miss something? /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Laura

Bob_in_Cincy
03-06-2003, 11:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> ....... The biggest killer of what would be a good stroke is tension in the shooting hand/arm!

Rod <hr /></blockquote>

I hope that lots of folks read this thread, 'cause there's a little gem.

Regards,

Bob_in_Cincy

JohnnyP
03-06-2003, 12:37 PM
Here's a snip from a previous thread, where I was trying to figure out why I was stroking one day, and choking the next:

Rod: I'm rated a B-. Last week they matched me up with an A9 (they gave me ten on the wire), and I was playing well. I was not nervous, and I was stroking well. He even told me I have a nice, straight stroke.
Saturday, they matched me up with a lady B player. They gave me one on the wire. I feel that I should have beat her pretty easy, but I just squeaked by.

My wrist and forearm had a funny, queasy feeling, like it was almost trembling. When that happens, my stroke gets wobbly, and I don't hit the ball with authority.

Must be that tension in the shooting arm deal. How do you make it go away?

Rod
03-06-2003, 12:50 PM
Bob,
Sometimes you have to pry their hand off the cue! It is the single reason (stroke wise) that players advance slowly or never reach their full potential. It comes in several forms. One of the most noted ones is the hit impulse as Leonard mentioned. Another is the upper and lower arm move together. Yet another is the upper body and head movement. There all interrelated and I see it every time I watch almost anyone play. For the players that "think" they hold the cue light, they still are holding it to tight. Maybe not at address or the backswing but somewhere on the forward stroke it all goes to pot. Constant grip pressure (hopefully not to tight) is a key to improvement and consistancy. Thanks Bob, I'm glad you found that of interest.

Rod
03-06-2003, 01:19 PM
Johnny,
It's hard to say but it might be related to pressure or anxiety which causes tension. Few people are immune to such happening, it even happens at the pro level. I've had it happen and you just have to work through that uncomfortable feeling. I have found, for myself, taking deep breaths and walking around the table giving myself a chance to calm down works well. I just have to center my thoughts and make a commitment to my next shot. I like to start playing more agressive as I work through this, although I admit it can be difficult. We need to commit to a plan before we shoot, if there are any doubts or thoughts running wild then it is destine to fail.

Rod

SecaucusFats
03-06-2003, 07:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> This sounds like something a person like me would have to see to conceptualize. Anyone care to make a little video clip?

Laura <hr /></blockquote>

Don "Preacher" Feeney covers the slip stroke in detail in Volume 3 of his eight volume "Lessons With The Preacher" video set. FWIW, I highly recommend this video set. I learned a lot from it, and it was well worth the money I spent on it.

Secaucus Fats

03-06-2003, 07:50 PM
If you learn to hold the cue &amp; not grip the cue, with the lightest possible hold you can imagine, and now hold it in the correct place, and not way up front that causes you to jack up, there is no need to ever slip stroke, which basically prevents you from holding too tight &amp; moving the cue back to where it should have been in the first place.

Golf has a cardinal rule on this pool should pay attention to, you never regrip a club, never, you retain the same light hold pressure back &amp; through the shot. The slip stroke has mostly been a NE l4.l thing, you really dont see it much, and I would never teach it, because I feel it is totally un necessary.

They mention greats using that method, which means absolutely nothing. A lot of pool is taught, monkey see, monkey do, so when a great like the Miz, or The Cowboy, or Cisero begin to do this, a ton of people begin to copy this, but that does not make it right.

Hell it could be wrong. An example, back in the 70's Johnny Miller was tearing every one a new A** hole with his reverse C swing &amp; shooting the lowest scores of all time. For 4 years the guy could not be touched. Today nobody will go near that concept, because it has been proven to be wrong and that other methods are better. For somebody to teach the reverse C in Golf today just because Johnny Miller shoot all of those low scores with it, would become a hugh joke.

Tom Kennedy uses a punch jab type of stroke with a firm grip, the exact opposite of this method, &amp; he beats Johnny Archer a lot. This only means &amp; proves the great natural player, can run out using many different methods. It is up to you as the player, to pick the method that works best for you.

I have ran two racks using a $3.00 mop from Kmart with no tip, I bet you if you bet Mosconi to use the Kennedy punch &amp; my mop, the guy would run 50. Dont get hung up on this one, it really does not mean squat. www.fastlarrypool.com (http://www.fastlarrypool.com) Best Wishes,
Fast Larry Guninger.

SecaucusFats
03-06-2003, 11:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> If you learn to hold the cue &amp; not grip the cue, with the lightest possible hold you can imagine, and now hold it in the correct place, and not way up front that causes you to jack up, there is no need to ever slip stroke, which basically prevents you from holding too tight &amp; moving the cue back to where it should have been in the first place.

Golf has a cardinal rule on this pool should pay attention to, you never regrip a club, never, you retain the same light hold pressure back &amp; through the shot. The slip stroke has mostly been a NE l4.l thing, you really dont see it much, and I would never teach it, because I feel it is totally un necessary.

They mention greats using that method, which means absolutely nothing. A lot of pool is taught, monkey see, monkey do, so when a great like the Miz, or The Cowboy, or Cisero begin to do this, a ton of people begin to copy this, but that does not make it right.

Hell it could be wrong. An example, back in the 70's Johnny Miller was tearing every one a new A** hole with his reverse C swing &amp; shooting the lowest scores of all time. For 4 years the guy could not be touched. Today nobody will go near that concept, because it has been proven to be wrong and that other methods are better. For somebody to teach the reverse C in Golf today just because Johnny Miller shoot all of those low scores with it, would become a hugh joke.

Tom Kennedy uses a punch jab type of stroke with a firm grip, the exact opposite of this method, &amp; he beats Johnny Archer a lot. This only means &amp; proves the great natural player, can run out using many different methods. It is up to you as the player, to pick the method that works best for you.

I have ran two racks using a $3.00 mop from Kmart with no tip, I bet you if you bet Mosconi to use the Kennedy punch &amp; my mop, the guy would run 50. Dont get hung up on this one, it really does not mean squat. www.fastlarrypool.com (http://www.fastlarrypool.com) Best Wishes,
Fast Larry Guninger. <hr /></blockquote>

I was simply responding to Bluewolf's request for info on the slip stroke (specifically the request for video demonstration of the technique). Don Feeney explains and demonstrates the technique in the third volume of his video set although he does not actually advocate it per se.

As to the amount of grip pressure one should use I feel that it varies with the shot and what you want the cueball to do. In other words, IMO there is no one correct amount of grip pressure to be used all the time, every time. I have been playing the game of pool for almost three decades now, so I feel I have some knowledge and experience.

Secaucus Fats -- Living extra, extra, large /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

#### leonard
03-07-2003, 09:04 AM
Laura if you grip the cue with your wrist cocked give the cue a couple of strokes, then you throw the cue at the cueball, your thumb is between your first two fingers so when you flick your thumb they open and release the cue, you then catch the cue with you last two fingers. It is one of the straightest of strokes because you can't twist,veer or any crazy move. It takes a couple of weeks of practice to become proficient at providing you a natural. Once your accustomed to the grip you can change your thumb placement if you wish. When I was using it I kept the thumb placement.####

#### leonard
03-07-2003, 01:16 PM
Johnny here was my answer to a shakingArm/hand. I pitched hardball and fast pitch softball so I ended up with a shaking arm/hand. If I was a Brain Surgeon there would be nothing but Zombies around me. Yet with an arm so bad I managed to beat Most of the Worlds Best Players. This was how I did it. I did my practice stroking while walking around the table, when I got down on the shot I would just line up the shot and shoot. No practice strokes just one two three shoot.

My family DR/poolplaying friend solution to the arm problem was just switch to playing left-handed in 6 months time you will be just as good left handed. As a stubborn Irishman I kept saying I will beat this or die trying. In retrospect I was a dam fool for not switching. I have run over 100 balls playing left handed. My strong point was learning straight pool from the best position player[according to Jimmy Moore]so left or right I still had the same brain.
Most players think your dogging it but my arm did the same for fun as it did for money####

Bob_in_Cincy
03-07-2003, 04:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote #### leonard:</font><hr>....... I did my practice stroking while walking around the table, when I got down on the shot I would just line up the shot and shoot. No practice strokes just one two three shoot.

<hr /></blockquote>

This is very interesting. I've been experimenting with this some lately. It seems that the more warm up strokes I take, the more tension creeps into most of my arm. So lately I've been taking no more than 1 warm up and then shoot. I'm making more balls this way. I take my time assessing the shot, but then it's just drop, 1 warm up &amp; shoot. I know part of the tension comes from lack of faith in my stroke at times, so I'm hoping that this will help in that area as well.

Regards,

Bob_in_Cincy

#### leonard
03-07-2003, 06:29 PM
Bob my stroke would jump on the final delivery. One,two three okay but the final delivery it would jump so I just eliminated the strokes and I could controll it. On long shots it was difficult so I never shot them. ####