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cheesemouse
03-05-2003, 10:37 AM
THE SAFE BREAK IN 8-BALL
I just played in a State event where in the top division, a race to six, two divisions of 32 two players one in each division were using a saftey break on all breaks. Some of their matches were taking 3 to 4 hours and the result was the timing of the brackets got all messed up. The tournament directors were pulling their hair out as were most of the normal players. Luckily both these guys were beat out before the final eight players were determined and singles event did finish before the teams events started but what a mess....A No Saftey Break rule was invoked for the teams events and all was well but what general rule could be used to eliminate this plague???

SPetty
03-05-2003, 11:48 AM
Hi Cheese,

I'm just not quite sure, I guess, what you mean by an 8-ball "safety break". Using "normal" rules, it isn't a legal break unless four balls contact the rail or a ball is pocketed.

Here's excerpts from the BCA and APA rules regarding breaks:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BCA rules:</font><hr>LEGAL BREAK SHOT
(Defined) To execute a legal break, the breaker (with the cue ball behind the head string) must either (1) pocket a ball, or (2) drive at least four numbered balls to the rail. When the breaker fails to make a legal break, it is a foul, and the incoming player has the option of (1) accepting the table in position and shooting, or (2) having the balls re-racked and having the option of shooting the opening break or allowing the offending player to re-break.<hr /></blockquote><blockquote><font class="small">Quote APA rules:</font><hr>To be a legal break, the head ball or second ball must be struck first and at least four balls must be driven to the rails or a ball must be pocketed. The cue ball may not be shot into a rail before the rack.<hr /></blockquote>

03-05-2003, 12:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> THE SAFE BREAK IN 8-BALL
I just played in a State event where in the top division, a race to six, two divisions of 32 two players one in each division were using a saftey break on all breaks. Some of their matches were taking 3 to 4 hours and the result was the timing of the brackets got all messed up. The tournament directors were pulling their hair out as were most of the normal players. Luckily both these guys were beat out before the final eight players were determined and singles event did finish before the teams events started but what a mess....A No Saftey Break rule was invoked for the teams events and all was well but what general rule could be used to eliminate this plague??? <hr /></blockquote>

1. cb speed: nobody is going to invest in and use a radar on every break. forget that.

2. increase the # of balls to the rail: too hard to call. too much room for argument.

3. set a required # of balls north of the middle line. easy to inspect. seems you would want to piddle with it a bit to come up with the right # but that may be the way.

4. pornography test: just lets the refs take a "i know it when i see it" stance and declare racks illegal safety breaks based on their personal opinion. only if i get to be the one to decide.

fwiw

dan

cheesemouse
03-05-2003, 12:41 PM
I should explain that they were driving four balls to the rail but the stack still resembelded a 14/1 game. My point was if this break became popular running a tournament would become impossible....IMHO the legal saftey break should be done away with all together somehow and was wondering or asking for useful suggestions on how to write the new rule. The people who run the State tournament are looking for a new rule...

bluewolf
03-05-2003, 12:47 PM
Interesting that you brought this up. This is something I have done when playing higher sl players. That is, fulfilling requirements of 4 balls to rail and leaving a nasty cluster for them to have to break up.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-05-2003, 01:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> Interesting that you brought this up. This is something I have done when playing higher sl players. That is, <font color="red">fulfilling requirements of 4 balls to rail and leaving a nasty cluster for them to have to break up.</font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Grrrr... I used to like you /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

landshark1002000
03-06-2003, 02:23 AM
Hi Bluewolf:
/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gifSmart strategy. Limit the skilled players run out opportunity.

In chess (another strategy game) the Time it takes to play a game is limitted by the use of a clock.

The shot clock might be an alternative for tournament play.

--Ted from Phoenix

Vagabond
03-06-2003, 05:21 AM
Howdy,
I do not call it a safety break.I call it a break with strategy! Lol
The only solution to the problem is the number three of houston Dan`s sugestions.Unfortunately the framers of rules appear to have limitted skills in English language and this has caused some problems in the past.Is it the game of 8 ball or the people who play it that causes somany arguments? For that reason I stopped playing 8 ball in 1990
I consult some one ,who knows how to write, for my transactions of importance
Cheers
vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

snipershot
03-06-2003, 02:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> Interesting that you brought this up. This is something I have done when playing higher sl players. That is, fulfilling requirements of 4 balls to rail and leaving a nasty cluster for them to have to break up. <hr /></blockquote>

I don't consider myself a "high skill level player" but have had lower skill level players do this to me because they know they can't out-shoot me. Whenever this happens I just step up and smash the cluster, reguardless of what happens I know it's highly unlikely my opponent will run the table and I simply turn the game into a shoot-out anyways. It doesn't always work, but I hate large clusters /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

nAz
03-06-2003, 03:01 PM
lol Sniper i have done the same thing many times, its funny the look in their face after you do that. lol

Wally_in_Cincy
03-06-2003, 03:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote snipershot:</font><hr>
.....Whenever this happens I just step up and smash the cluster, ....<hr /></blockquote>

Another reason to learn straight pool. If you know straight pool you can break that cluster in a controlled fashion.

bluewolf
03-06-2003, 03:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote snipershot:</font><hr>
I don't consider myself a "high skill level player" but have had lower skill level players do this to me because they know they can't out-shoot me. Whenever this happens I just step up and smash the cluster, reguardless of what happens I know it's highly unlikely my opponent will run the table and I simply turn the game into a shoot-out anyways. It doesn't always work, but I hate large clusters /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I am WAAAY lower than you but even I have been faced with someone who left it that way not on purpose but because they could not break. I have busted them up too. If I left a cluster on a high sl, though and they did that, I would just have to laugh. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura

Jon from MN
03-06-2003, 04:11 PM
That break is perfectly legal and smart in some cases also. Its not dumb to take your opponent out of his or her game. As far as smashing into the cluster that is such a low rercentage shot it is rediculous, you wouldnt beat the c players around here doing that. Jon from mn

Cueless Joey
03-06-2003, 04:18 PM
Safety breaking on a game of 8-ball is stinky pool to me.
Of course, it's a perfectly legal move as long you send enough balls to the rail

cheesemouse
03-06-2003, 05:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jon from MN:</font><hr> That break is perfectly legal and smart in some cases also. Its not dumb to take your opponent out of his or her game. As far as smashing into the cluster that is such a low rercentage shot it is rediculous, you wouldnt beat the c players around here doing that. Jon from mn <hr /></blockquote>

Jon,

I agree it is a good move SOMETIMES but when the guy is using it on every break in a race to six the match can go into the three hour range easily and screw up the brackets for everybody. Example: A friend of mine started playing the guy at midnight(the match was sheduled to start at 9:00) at 2am I left to get some sleep; the score was 4/1 in the a$$holes favor. I had told my buddy at the beginning of the match to rack all the solids on one side and all the stripes on the other and then after the break one set of balls would diffinitely be the better set to establish with and perhaps that advantage could be carried to the end game...When I came in the next morning at 9am I noticed my buddy was playing a match. I went over and ask "how in the hell did you get out of that trap?" He told me the match didn't get over till 4:30am and that he felt he didn't have anything to loose at 4/1 so he rack'm the way I suggested and it worked......I guess the point is once a guy starts this you are sentenced to play the game out in this 'in the weeds fashion' for if you shuffle the stack it has to workout for you as the a$$hole is also a runout player and that is just what he wants you to do, get impatient and take the flier move and have it backfire leaving him an unobstruted table to runout with.
Jon,
Being a MN player imagine this: Rory Hendricks vs Rob Matson with Rory(who is already a slow player) is saftey breaking Rob. Who do think is going to win this match.........Popcorn is going to go off after acouple racks and Rory is just going to wait and sweep up the duck outs....My point is once it begins you have to play out the safety game all the way to the end or most likey you will lose the match...You can't have half the field using the safety break or the damn tournament would take two extra days to finish....The safety break is a good move under certain conditions but when over used it is a blight on the game...Maybe one safety break per match is the answer.

03-06-2003, 09:15 PM
Dear Cheesmouse, safety break destroyed the event, they cant play a lick, so they resort to this in a failed attempt to win. My answer, in the next event, make each one of the pansies play in a pink dress, that should put an end to that crap. Where is the TD, go throw a couple of these bums out of the front door, the rest of them will get the concept, play pool, like a man, or get tossed out of da joint. Why do you people put up with this BS? I am telling you, allow this to spread, it will kill the game. Fast Larry Guninger

dddd
03-06-2003, 09:33 PM
in higher level tournaments invoke the time limit rules which state the length of time a match can take, and still be considered "normal".

the last game must be started before this time limit arrives or that next game will be played for the win!
this will keep the worry in a persons mind not to play slow too much or face a one game playoff to win no matter who is ahead or behind!

but with a "safe break" one must still apply the offensive pressure and place your balls in better positions. this pressure can and does "pressure" the safe player into mistakes. remember a better shooter is can always shoot, but he can also position balls into better places for future shots.

Sid_Vicious
03-06-2003, 09:41 PM
I am with everyone protesting this break. First, if the soft break is used without any warning, you many times have an arguement as to whether 4 ball actually go to a rail. What are you going to do, call a ref on EVERY break? The best thing that could happen would be to make it's obviousness illegal. It's a pure nuisance to the sport of 8-ball...sid

Rod
03-06-2003, 10:08 PM
Thats what I was thinking also. When they call the match the time starts. Of course they will factor in time to get to the table etc. Its a workable option, the TD just has to stay on top of time on each match. I'd imagine he would rather do that than deal with lopsided brackets and listen to people complain.

Rod

dddd
03-06-2003, 11:48 PM
rather than going into great detail, i played in nationals in vegas in 93 i think where the last match was decided using this rule. there were two ladies playing the last, and one game one win done.... i ran into this in the singles regionals last week end in indy as well, it seems ok i dont meet too many extra careful players that it is a problem, i just try to play agressive enough to keep them jumping thru hoops and somewhere along the way there will be a mistake