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View Full Version : Jump Shots in 9-ball



Irish
03-06-2003, 04:11 PM
Would like to get peoples opinion on this. What do you think the professional rules should be reguarding jump shots in 9-ball. Heard alot of opinions going both ways for this, wont post my opinion till later.

1)Jump shots legal. All jump cues legal including bungee.

2)Jump shots legal as long as they are done with playing cue at normal length

3)Jump shots illegal

4)Other option, please specify in a post

Would have been a poll buy I could not get the preview to show the poll, it just showed the UBB code /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

eg8r
03-06-2003, 05:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
1)Jump shots legal. All jump cues legal including bungee. <hr /></blockquote> Why do you single out Bunjee? Is there something about the Bunjee that you think is different than other jump cues?

To answer your post, I choose number 1. I think they should be legal. Whether you use a Bunjee, Stealth or any other jumper out there. You can also just your playing cue if you so choose.

[ QUOTE ]
Would have been a poll buy I could not get the preview to show the poll, it just showed the UBB code <hr /></blockquote> In the webmasters infinite wisdom, they have disable the use of the poll. No one is sure why, and they have not stated a reason.

eg8r

Brent
03-06-2003, 05:38 PM
No offence but its a stupid question..@ least for me. Jumping is part of the game and so it should stay.

Sid_Vicious
03-06-2003, 06:24 PM
Legal, and especially in 1-pocket, all cues including Bungee, etc...sid

eg8r
03-06-2003, 08:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
No offence but its a stupid question <hr /></blockquote> No offense, but I don't believe in stupid questions. Only stupid people that ask questions. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Just to be safe, I did not call anyone stupid. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif These days I find I need to be clear, and this was meant to be a joke.

I think his question is valid if his goal is measuring the current of the board. Many people have their own theories. I think Jay M will be back me on this...If you feel the question is stupid, I would like you to have a debate with Earl Strickland. Earl is adamant that the jump cue is one of the tools that is hurting pool. He hates them. I believe his answer to this valid question would be 2 and possibly a chance for 3.

Hey what do I know. I use the jumper and still gain zero advantage over my opponent. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

03-06-2003, 08:17 PM
The reason 860 was developed was so you could jump on it. Earl pulled off some neat jumps on TV, using his regular cue, and the jump craze was on. We should be playing on the faster speed 760, and if we could move the jump down a notch, we could do this. Pool is playing on too slow off a surface, like Golf did in the 50's, when all the greens were slow Bermuda, even the Masters had bermuda greens. When they went to greens with speeds twice as fast, the cream came to the top, which is what you want.

In pool, we are doing the opposite, Playing on too slow a cloth, becuase the the want to jump, and they think they can make better cb position on the slower cloth, yes they can, &amp; yes that is the problem, you don't seperate the ham &amp; eggers from the cream when you do that. The problem is, this shot does not come up that much, and when it does, the damage it does to the cloth is equal to the Masse, which no room will allow you to shoot, but they allow the jump.

Stay with me here, the Masse is a legal shot in the rule book, but every joint in America has out lawed it. I think the answer is to go back to the way it was &amp; remove the big emphasis from the jump. I liked the old PBT rule was if you use a jump cue, you have to finish the match with it. If you want to jump, use your playing cue. The facts are, Earl &amp; I are very good jumping with our regular cues, we cant make a lot of the funky things you can make with a short light cue I grant you that, but we spent a lot of time learning the shot.

The problem I have with pool is people are now selling you a shot which I feel it outrageous. The cardinal rule in golf, is if a new club gives you the shot, meaning you go out &amp; buy the shot, that club get's outlawed.


The solution is simple, just out law all jump cues, but who has the balls or the authority to do that, pool is broken up into a dozen split factions, pool cant even agree to or write a simple rule book for the pro's &amp; amateurs and get everyone to agree on it. Until they can figure out how to do that, there is no solution to the jump cue thing. I would like to see the Masse shot be allowed, and then the player can have both options, allow me to do that, since I own both shots at a high level, and I will Masse on 50% of the shots that come up I am jumping on now.

The Masse is my best shot. How can you guys practice a shot or ever learn to shoot it if it is banned from all of the pool halls. The powers to be, should re educate everyone on this shot &amp; solve the problems with it, or just ban &amp; make the damn thing illegal &amp; be done with it./I feel they allow Masses everywhere &amp; ban the jump cues. If they do this, a lot of people making jump cues are not going to be very happy, which is why you will se no change in this, because they buy ads &amp; influence &amp; will kill off any move to kill off their product. You can have two rule books, one for the pro's, one for the amateurs, every one &amp; every league agrees on, do you realize Golf has only one rule book, one ruling authority, and that, you see, is the problem in pool. you have 6 people running in 6 different directions, all wanting to be king frog on their own little lilly pad, and not caring about where the future or direction of the game is going.
www.fastlarrypool.com (http://www.fastlarrypool.com) Best Wishes,
Fast Larry Guninger

Sid_Vicious
03-06-2003, 08:32 PM
"Hey what do I know. I use the jumper and still gain zero advantage over my opponent."

Ed...I have an advantage over the hardest opponent of all, me. You will notice quickly, as players locally have that I kick like sh!t, but leave me space and a view of the OB and I won't cough the BIH foul up near as often, almost never. This is the primary reason I love the jump ability I have developed. Beyond that, it's just plain fun to show off!!!sid

Sid_Vicious
03-06-2003, 08:37 PM
"the Masse is a legal shot in the rule book, but every joint in America has out lawed it."

Larry...I play in any one of 6 different PHs in the Dallas area, the places with billiards posted on the front of the buildings and none dissallow masse shots, none. Come on down to Texas and masse all you want...sid

eg8r
03-06-2003, 08:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Beyond that, it's just plain fun to show off <hr /></blockquote> I like it when people stop to watch and you can hear them talking about you. I have had people laugh when I jack up, only to quiet up when I execute the jump and hit the ball. This is probably the most gratifying.

eg8r

Sid_Vicious
03-06-2003, 09:26 PM
START(
%Af6V5%HQ4K6%Kb8M9%MS0W8%NK9U2%PI3U1

)END

Ed...I had this safe played on me, my ball the one, in a game of 8-ball. I called the right corner, grabbed the JC and mentally saw the shot unfold before I hit it.

START(
%At0[9%HQ4K6%Kb8M9%MS0W8%NK9U2%PJ0P2%Ur6[1%Vg3V7%Wr3O4%Xe9V0
%Yf4D6%Zs2N8%[J6P2%\e1C3
)END

The guy(a grudge match of mine) grumbled, "Dam jump, outta be outlawed, I'm gonna talk to'em at the Nationals about making it illegal." I proceeded by saying, "Heck it(jc) made that one" and I used the jumper to pop the 8 in the side. Some events are priceless! ;-) sid

Rod
03-06-2003, 09:55 PM
First of all the game has changed since the 80's when push out was still played. I don't know when that happened exactly because I took a few years off from the game. Since the game changed and you could no longer push out except for the break, hooking your opponent become an easier way to win the game or win on a 3 foul. Up jumps hoppie and started a new trend. It's not likely the jump cue is going away anytime soon so it is part of the present game.

Having said that I think jumping should be allowed in the pro arena but only with there playing cue. Maybe that would send a message to the viewers to either jump with their own cue or learn their way around the table. It's not like no one ever jumped a ball before the jump cue, it dates well before then.

Rod

eg8r
03-06-2003, 09:58 PM
LOL. I would probably have kicked at that shot. I do not bring my jumper out very often.

Great shot though.

eg8r

L.S. Dennis
03-06-2003, 10:17 PM
I think generally what is becoming accepted is a compromise of a 40 inch length for all jump cues in most tournaments.

I remember almost 10 years ago I bought a Joss jump cue which came in at 38 inches. Then the 40 inch rule came into effect and I had to alter it on my lathe. Yes I think they should remain legal with the 40 inch rule in effet. In golf you use different type of clubs for different shots so why not in pool?

bigbro6060
03-06-2003, 10:31 PM
i'd go with you have to jump with your playing cue

Steve Lipsky
03-06-2003, 10:42 PM
I don't buy the golf analogy, and I'm sure I never will. The aspect of being safe in pool is unique; the jump cue has let players who didn't take the time to learn to jump with a full cue gain an instant equalizer. Instant gratification, billiards-style.

When the interfering ball is too close to jump with a normal cue, IMO you should be forced to kick. Your opponent played a great safe, or you dogged the position, and this is where you are. Take your lumps and kick, and learn to do that well too. And for the occasions when your opponent misses and leaves you locked up by accident, well, this is part of 9-ball. You can't legislate luck out of the game.

I'm sorry, I get pretty crazy about this topic. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

- Steve

Paul_Mon
03-07-2003, 04:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> The facts are, Earl &amp; I are very good jumping with our regular cues, we cant make a lot of the funky things you can make with a short light cue I grant you that, but we spent a lot of time learning the shot.

<hr /></blockquote>

Larry,
Can you jump using your Predator shaft? It's been my experience that the 314 is extremely difficult to jump with. Any secrets?

Paul Mon~~~~~~thinks that jumping should be allowed only with the stick you play with.

Sid_Vicious
03-07-2003, 08:41 AM
"I do not bring my jumper out very often."

I probably look like one of those nits we discussed in earlier threads, but my JC gets assembled first thing, just like the breaker and the play cue. My ex-father-in-law observed something about me and said, "When you buy something, you really use it, don't you?"0

Naw Ed, as bad as I kick, I'm gonna have the hopster warmed up and ready to go...sid~~~only notices one other player who assembles the JC at pre match

Predator314
03-07-2003, 08:57 AM
With my normal Helmstetter shaft, I can jump the ball (normal size cue). I can't get the ball to even think about jumping with my Predator shaft. I don't have a jump cue. I'm thinking about getting one since I won't be carring around the Helmstetter anymore after next week.

I've seen some people break down their cue and jump with just their shaft. I saw a guy jump a ball one time with just his shaft when the balls weren't an inch apart. It defied the laws of physics. In the games where if you change cues, you must finish with that cue, if you break down your cue and just use the shaft, are you allowed to put your cue back together, or do you have to shoot with just the shaft?

Pizza Bob
03-07-2003, 09:06 AM
I gotta go with #2 here. It seems that in any sport technology somehow manages to subvert the intent of the original rules and it has to be dealt with. I was surprised to see that noone brought up the old "jump-rod" cues (and I use that term very loosely) of the early 90's. Anybody, and I do mean anybody, could jump with one of these "knife-sharpeners run amok" to the point that it changed the entire game. These were outlawed (BCA) and we got the current rule in its place. Now technology is marching forward again and we're getting phenolic tips, one-piece ferrules and tips and specially configured cues, that while meeting the letter of the rule, seek to circumvent the intent. I'm with Steve (Lipsky) on this one.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

Ralph S.
03-07-2003, 09:14 AM
I am all in favor of jump rods. I like mine and use it whenever I can just for the practice factor. As far as professional tournaments go, I think they make it a rule in all tourneys that jumps have to be done with full length cues. Keep in mind, these are pros. They are supposed to be the best. A guy from New Orleans named Jamie Farrell, I think thats his name, made a terric jump shot with a full length cue at the Derby City Classic in Jnuary. This shot was no gimme, it was tight.

Sid_Vicious
03-07-2003, 09:59 AM
New poll, so to speak. Without my entering all the names here this thread, about 9-ball and using the jump cues, who owns one and still votes to limit the action to long sticks or not at all???sid

Eric.
03-07-2003, 10:01 AM
To answer the question:

I think jump shots should be legal with your normal playing cue only.

Now, I have to admit, I'm a hypocrite. I use a Bungee Jump Stump. I finally decided that instead of fighting the tide, I'll just go with it. Why let someone else have an unfair advantage?

My biggest peeve against the Jumper is that it takes away some of the kicking game. In a game like 9-ball, all things equal between 2 players, the better kicker can be the difference between a win or loss. I feel the jump stump gives the player that can't kick well a way to even the odds.

Eric &gt;work is slow today

Predator314
03-07-2003, 10:13 AM
I play against quite a few opponents that have jump cues. Sure it saves them from having to kick as often. I still don't think they have an advantage because unless the ball is sitting in the pocket, I have yet to come across an opponent that can jump with great accuracy. I don't think they should be banned in any game.

Predator314
03-07-2003, 10:13 AM
I play against quite a few opponents that have jump cues. Sure it saves them from having to kick as often. I still don't think they have an advantage because unless the ball is sitting in the pocket, I have yet to come across an opponent that can jump with great accuracy. I don't think they should be banned in any game.

Sid_Vicious
03-07-2003, 10:45 AM
BUT, it also makes the lock-up talents of the master kicker that much better. I've been told many times after hitting my jumps, "Well I'm going to have to lock you up better than that from now on." and in time I start getting pinned against the obstructing ball instead of having room to jump.

Play your safeties a little better against the jumping artists, that'll even out the playing field and you will gain in your lock up skills at the same time...sid~~~could jump with the play cue it that was the policy

Eric.
03-07-2003, 10:45 AM
Hey Pred,

I hear what you're saying. I was thinking that if, for example, you have a layout like this:

START(
%Ci9L5%Dr0Q0%EX9O6%Fh8R1%Gh5E8%HP9W8%IK7S4%Pf1X0

)END


and the opponent doesn't kick well, a jump cue can make the difference between a win or loss. My personal experience, I find these situations coming up every now and then in a set. If you give up BIH on a layout like this, the other guy/gal is out.


Eric &gt;everyone is out except me

Eric.
03-07-2003, 10:52 AM
Sid,

you give a good argument for the jumper. I grudgingly agree with ya /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I guess what I used to consider a "fairly tight" safe, is no longer safe. Seems like nowadays, you have to get whitey to within an inch of another ball or put both the QB and OB behind balls!


Eric

Predator314
03-07-2003, 11:01 AM
Eric, I agree... With that layout and the jump cue in the hands of someone that can use it can make a difference in winning and losing. But look at it this way:

If your opponent left him/herself this shot after making the previous shot, then they jumped and got out, I say great for them... way to get out of a jam. If I played safe or miss the shot and leave that layout, I deserved to lose the game anyway.

Steve Lipsky
03-07-2003, 11:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Predator314:</font><hr> If your opponent left him/herself this shot after making the previous shot, then they jumped and got out, I say great for them... way to get out of a jam. If I played safe or miss the shot and leave that layout, I deserved to lose the game anyway. <hr /></blockquote>

Predator, I'm curious as to why you feel that if you played safe to this position, you deserve to lose the game anyway? Is it because you didn't completely lock him up? There are a zillion times in 9-ball that an Alcatraz opportunity just does not exist. Are you saying that when these situations arise, you should be forced to go for some wildly low-percentage shot, rather than play the safe in this diagram?

Eric, I see your point, but I'm not sure this diagram is a perfect example. Jumping to make the 3 will not yield anything close to position on the 4, and there's a good chance that you'll scratch in the side. I agree it's a tough kick, but even if my opponent used his jumpstick here, I don't think he's a favorite to win from this position.

- Steve

Eric.
03-07-2003, 11:19 AM
It's probably not the best diagram, Steve. If I were jumping, I would play the return safe. I would (try to) jump to thin cut the 3 ball and hope the CB goes up table/3 behind the 7 to something like this:

START(
%Ci9L5%Dr0Q0%EX9O6%Fh8R1%Gh5E8%HP9W8%IK7S4%PF1U8%W h3N6%Xf8W3
%_G1Q9%`_8D3%ah1L3%bm7D5%cr4H6%dk2L1
)END

Eric &gt;looks good on paper

Popcorn
03-07-2003, 11:56 AM
As an older player I remember when one foul came in, everyone hated it. It made for cheap wins, how can you give world class players ball in hand and feel you are playing championship pool, play a cheap safe and you win. Even a good kick in most cases will result in a sellout. The jump cue may have eliminated a lot of those cheap wins. It may also make someone think twice before just hooking you behind a ball that can be easily jumped. It encourages better safety play as well as aggressive runouts. I am telling you it became a joke after a while, nobody was even attempting to run out, they just wanted ball in hand, and I am talking world class players. They didn't call Sigel "Captain hook" for nothing. It was meant as an insult. He was sickening to watch play, at one point, he never shot at anything, he built his game around getting ball in hand. Many players even resisted playing cheap hooks to get ball in hand, and choose to play a more aggressive game. That probably was foolish, but what self-respecting player wanted to be winning that way. Players did become better at kicking, but the lack of control in most cases, still sells out. Players soon accepted the changes that ball in hand created and adjusted their play accordingly. It was still years before you played much ball in hand in gambling games. As it became the norm in tournament play and younger players grew up playing ball in hand, few now, even know there is another way to play. I don't see the game ever going back to two foul, and as long as we play one foul the threat of the jump shot is an asset to the game. It makes for a better game especially among top players. Just my opinion, but it based on seeing the evolution of the game over quite a few years.

Steve Lipsky
03-07-2003, 12:12 PM
Popcorn, you make some good points. My issue is, some people seem to think that 9-ball is supposed to be a completely offensive game, and I wonder why.

In my opinion, in order of most defensive to most offensive, the general order of the games would be:

1-pocket
8-ball / 9-ball
Straight pool

Sure, different guys will play with varying degrees of lunacy, but I think that's an accurate order. If people want to see just offense, let 'em watch a game of 14.1. That game is entirely about ball pocketing.

I feel that it is the concept of 9-ball (where only one ball means anything) that lends itself naturally to a little defense. "Do whatever you can to make sure you are the one pocketing that last ball." That statement is much different than the goal of straight pool: "Don't miss, because you need to score 150 balls before your opponent."

- Steve

03-07-2003, 12:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph S.:</font><hr> As far as professional tournaments go, I think they make it a rule in all tourneys that jumps have to be done with full length cues. Keep in mind, these are pros. They are supposed to be the best. <hr /></blockquote>
I see pros use jump cues on TV matches all the time. Karen Corr, Johnny Archer, Jeremy Jones, and Earl Strickland all use jump cues as I recall. Probably Allison and others as well, but I record every televised match and can't keep them all straight. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

David

Rod
03-07-2003, 12:20 PM
Sid,
I own one and will use it on occasion. Something funny, playing in a tournament my opponent hooked me. There was an iffy chance to hit the ball three rails with reverse english. I decided not to shoot the rail shot and go for the jump, only to try and play leave. I had to clear two balls about 4 feet and the o/b was 7" or so on the other side of the last ball. I figured I could hit the ball but at that range and on a bar table whitey would be bouncing.

I opened up my case to take the JC out and the butt was stuck in the bottom with the screw side down. Here I am beating the case on the floor to get it unstuck. Meanwhile I'd left the top pouch open and three or four items went flying out to. It seems my routine did not go unnoticed, I found out later a few people got quite a laugh out of my stuck butt! lol I did jump and hit the ball where I wanted and kept whitey on the table. I almost got a sweet leave but not quite which put the guy on the hill in front of me. I lost that match, he run the last rack. Now my butt is fairly easy to take out just in case I want to use hoppie.
I jump fairly well and fairly accutate but hoppie doesn't get used all that often. Many times a kick is a much better shot or jump with my playing cue which is accurate. Sometimes just grabbing a 16 OZ house cue works well for those a little to tight for the play cue.

Rod

Sid_Vicious
03-07-2003, 12:36 PM
I'd most likely do one of two things after this jump. 1. I'd make the ball and play the easy kick safety on the 4, I could hold the CB at that angle of an open lane to the short ral behind the 4 ball. 2. I'd miss making the 3, hit the OB a little thinner and leave the CB on the opposite end short rail, with the 3 drifting onto or near the opposite short rail. All in all, a very good option for a piss-poor kicker like myself. Short of hanging the 3 in the pocket, it sure makes much more sense than giving BIH with a missed kick, plus I see the offense, forget about the defense...sid

Eric.
03-07-2003, 01:11 PM
Pop,

I appreciate hearin' from you older guys that have been around. I agree that todays 9 ball is very different from rollout 9 ball. Given todays rules for 9 ball, I have to admit that like it or not, safeties are a big part of the game. My peeve on jumpers is that it makes it harder to 'lock' someone up (maybe I need to improve my safties) and minimizes the importance of kicking. For example; the Filipinos are known to kick very well. They seem to be able to kick safe well enough to the point that they can get certain results out of the kick. IMO, if you can return kick safe well, it gives you a better chance of keeping control of the table vs. hopping the CB.

This is only one man's opinion, maybe there are other ways that work. Maybe the 'no miss rollout', similar to Derby City and Atl City, will be the next new, new standard?


Eric &gt;along for the ride

eg8r
03-07-2003, 01:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Predator314:</font><hr> In the games where if you change cues, you must finish with that cue, if you break down your cue and just use the shaft... <hr /></blockquote> I believe this is illegal in a tournament situation. If you are going to use a cue to jump other than the normal size cue, then it needed to meet a certain length requirement. I think this is like 40 inches or something.

In the tournaments I have been in, if the player breaks down his cue, then that is considered a forfeit.

eg8r

Popcorn
03-07-2003, 02:31 PM
In all reality, the jump shot is rarely the best choice and I think a lot of players may jump more then they should. There are so many ways to kick a ball safe in a lot of situations that may get over looked for the jump. Just like with many kick shots, selling out is always there when you jump. For the most part you can achieve better results with a good kick. You can catch the correct edge of a ball and have the cueball travel up table for a safe, or kick a ball safe sticking the cue ball and so on. There is a zillion skills to pool.

Popcorn
03-07-2003, 02:49 PM
It is just that, the penalty of ball in hand is so dramatic, and some of the quality of the safeties required to get it not very high. There does not seem to be the same equity sometimes. He rolls up behind a ball, I kick and sell out, I lose. I guess even after all these years, I can't help but feel it cheapens the game. Could you imagine in golf a rule that said. If I miss my putt, My opponent can move his ball say, half distance he is from the hole closer? It would seem ridicules, that is how I feel about ball in hand. It still creeps me out to see someone take ball in hand on a 9-ball and shoot it in. I can't help it, I want to see them shoot from behind the line. Maybe if ball in hand was always behind the line, I don't know. Just kind of the way I feel.

eg8r
03-07-2003, 02:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> I see pros use jump cues on TV matches all the time. Karen Corr, Johnny Archer, Jeremy Jones, and Earl Strickland all use jump cues as I recall. <hr /></blockquote> Would you please go back and find the match that shows Earl Strickland using a jump cue. I am not saying you are wrong, it is just hard to believe since he is so adamantly against using them.

eg8r

Rod
03-07-2003, 04:06 PM
I feel very much the same way Popcorn. In golf years ago around Walter Hagen's era they played Stime. Which was your opponent could block your putt if he putted his ball in your way. He did not have to mark the ball and it played as they lay. This was the jump shot in golf on the green. In order to make your putt, you had to jump his ball with a lofted iron. You can imagine it was a little testy when their ball was a foot from the hole and the opponents ball was in the way!

rackmup
03-07-2003, 06:33 PM
Don't try to take my jump cue pal! What's next? No reading a book from back-to-front?

The commies that propose to take my JC from me will have to pry it from my cold, dead, Keith McCready-like bridge hand.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Regards,

Ken (moves his Meucci JC daily through a secret underground network of protective JC users and their families in order to avoid having it taken by force during a midnight JC Gestapo Police raid.)

03-07-2003, 07:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> I see pros use jump cues on TV matches all the time. Karen Corr, Johnny Archer, Jeremy Jones, and Earl Strickland all use jump cues as I recall. <hr /></blockquote> Would you please go back and find the match that shows Earl Strickland using a jump cue. I am not saying you are wrong, it is just hard to believe since he is so adamantly against using them.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>I'll go back and check, but now that you mention it, I think you're right -- I've also heard that he hates 'em, so I'm probably confusing him with someone else. I've got every televised match aired in the last 3 months recorded, and I'm probably not keeping them straight in my aged noggin'. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

David

Irish
03-07-2003, 09:07 PM
OK, lots of disscussion and both sides of the coin (as well as the grey area) are well stated.

My opinion is that Jump Cue's should be outlawed and that the cue a player uses to jump with must be their shooting cue. Choice #2 on my quasi-poll. I do believe the jump shot has a place in pool and should remain a viable shot, it should just be made more inline with other areas of the game according to skill.

Jump cues IMO are becomming a crutch of the open level players and are dumbing down the game by offering a far too easy escape from bad shape play and decent safeties by the opponent. The way jump cues are built today it takes far too little skill for a player to jump over a ball and get out of a safety or bad positional play. The players I see gaining the biggest advantage with jump cues are not the top players who rarely hook themselves and know how to play the rails when they are hooked, the worst players are also not the players gaining the advantage since they can rarely run out even after the successful jumpshot. It is the middle of the road players who gain the most from the jump cue. These players can run racks, but they tend to get themselves in trouble alot and hook themselves a fair bit. The jumpcue has become a godsend for these people and a huge crutch for their lack of cueball control.

The jump-cue has all but removed kicking from many peoples game. I see tons of players now that will pull out their jump cue at the instant they see themselves hooked without a seconds thought. These players will play a kick only as a last resort on the maybe 10% of hooks when the jump shot is impossible. Of course their kicking game is usually horrendous since they rarely if ever play a kick.

The problem is in the simple fact that modern jump cues are just too easy to jump with. Very weak players who can rarely run a table out can learn to jump well with a modern jump cue after very little practice, the better players who practice with a jump cue can become so proficient that they can pot a jump shot with almost 50% of the success rate of them shooting the same shot just with the blocking ball removed. Simply aim the shot as normal, jack up on the cue, jab the cueball down into the cloth, and presto, they pot the ball and make it look easy.... because it is!

A jumpshot with a full length cue on the other hand takes a tremendous amount of skill. If you are just partially blocked and can jump the edge the shot is fairly easy but the more of the ball you have to jump the shot becomes far more difficult. Jumping a full ball with a full length cue takes a tremendous amount of skill, and so it should to escape from a poor area of the table after a bad shape play or a good safety by your opponent. The skill it takes to jump a full ball with a full length cue is similar to the skill it takes to masse, the average kick shot, and other special shots in the game. This balance should exist. Once one part of the game becomes so easy that is removes the other areas of the game strickly because of special cues that do much of the work for you something is wrong. With jump cues aloud in the game it removes most of the kicking game from pool and nearly all of the masse shots. Jumping is king with those nifty ball hoppers since it is so much easier then the alternatives. There is a reason that the shaft jump was made illegal and 40 inches was made the minimum length for a cue, shaft jumps took little skill, they made many other shots obsolete, and they made it far too easy to escape from serious well deserved trouble. I think the jump cues are starting to bring this problem out again, the jump cue is far too powerful and effective a tool and removes alot of the "skill" required to play this game.

eg8r
03-08-2003, 11:34 AM
Ha, I knew Ken would have something to say about this. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Ken is the single individual that steered me back to using my jump cue. Do I fault him...NOPE. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I find it more enjoyable when playing certain people and using the jump cue. Ken is one of the few that appreciates a good jump, so I am with him. Heck because of Ken, my little Bro has a jump also. LOL

eg8r &lt;~~~Doesn't need an underground network, I disguise my Bunjee in the form of a break cue. ;|

cycopath
03-08-2003, 02:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dmorris68:</font><hr> I see pros use jump cues on TV matches all the time. Karen Corr, Johnny Archer, Jeremy Jones, and Earl Strickland all use jump cues as I recall. <hr /></blockquote> Would you please go back and find the match that shows Earl Strickland using a jump cue. I am not saying you are wrong, it is just hard to believe since he is so adamantly against using them.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>I'll go back and check, but now that you mention it, I think you're right -- I've also heard that he hates 'em, so I'm probably confusing him with someone else. I've got every televised match aired in the last 3 months recorded, and I'm probably not keeping them straight in my aged noggin'. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

David <hr /></blockquote>When I saw Strickland at the BCA Show in New Orleans last year my friend with me asked him to show him his jump shot, as my friend had seen him in Vegas years ago pocketing balls off the jump shot consistently as some kind of exhibition. Earl just set the balls up and did it with his regular cue. It took a couple of tries but he did it. Earl said he was rusty on the jump shot. I was impressed, though.

03-08-2003, 03:25 PM
Yeah, it wasn't Earl I was thinking about after all. I failed to mention, though, Mika Immonen and Jeanette Lee as two other pros who favor jump cues. My point was just to rebut the observation someone else had about the pros not using jump sticks, or them not being allowed in pro matches.

Back when I was at the top of my game (about 15 years ago) I used to jump with my regular cue pretty well. Since taking up playing again last year after a 10 year hiatus, I find that I can't jump worth a flip anymore. Maybe I should look into one of these lil' jumpers myself. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

David

cheesemouse
03-08-2003, 04:38 PM
I use to jump with my regular playing cue but when I switched to the 314 shafts I found it difficult to jump with them. A month ago I bought a bungee and it jumps balls like they are ping pong balls. I just played in a four day event and only hit one full jump shot but I had about ten of them shot against me one of which really hurt...LOL

snipershot
03-08-2003, 08:38 PM
I for one love jump shots, it makes you think twice when playing a safety, the positives of jump shots outweigh the negatives, with this in mind I would have to pick option number one.

bluewolf
03-09-2003, 07:53 PM
I have enjoyed this thread. Not having a history of the game, I just assumed that jump shots were something a person would learn after getting good at kicks and masses.It never occurred to me that there might be players who jumped okay that were not good at kicks or masse.

Kind of opened my eyes to some things.

Laura