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Vapros
03-07-2003, 02:26 AM
I'm hoping for some knowledgeable comment and input on the matter of squirt and deflection. Are they the same?

Fred Agnir, posting a few days ago, told us that it is not the stiffness of the shaft that reduces squirt, but rather the 'tip-end mass'. The less the better. So - how about using a stiff shaft, 13 mm or a little more, with a smaller ferrule, like maybe 12 mm. Would that be an effective combination? It would be a funny-looking thing, but is that the way to reduce squirt? Or deflection?

Alternatively, what about beveling the cue tip, so that less surface contacts the cueball? Anybody have data or test results to offer about this? Is there any downside to cutting back on squirt?

03-07-2003, 02:19 PM
The two terms get people mixed up, if you jack up some, and hit high right, 2:00, or low right, 4:30, the cue ball will squirt left out from your intended path, it deflects off of your target line, then the english takes & it curves back to that line, being able to guage this, and to control it almost becomes impossible. You miss a lot of shots because of this, where you aimed, the cb arrives at a different spot.

The preditor deflects less because of low front end mass, they hollow out the shaft, which makes it lighter, and use a soft very thin ferrule. The Meucci red dot deflects less because they use a soft ferrule, and a softer shaft than a stiff shaft. The softer shaft deflects less than a very stiff shaft, that is my opinion, and the opinion of Meucci, others will of course argue that point forever.

If you want maximum deflection, use a very stiff shaft, & put a very hard ferrule on it, like Ivory, now you have the worst of worst worlds.

I use very short ferrules like all the Billiard players use, they are stronger, pool players use long ferrules. I use a very stiff wood on my Schuler, that is not Maple, it is Bankok Birch, a discovery I made, now I have the best of all worlds, I have the advantage of stiff which draws best, and almost no deflection to deal with. The more your cue deflects, the more balls you are going to miss. The longer the shot using english, the harder they get for you.

OK, so you are stuck with a cue that deflects, what do you do. One sell it & buy a Schuler with the Bankok that does not, buy a Meucci that does little, or buy a preditor shaft for your cue & toss your old shaft in the corner.

I can teach a student, how to shoot table length, using maximum english, even 3 tips out, using a stiff cue that deflects a lot, and show him how to beat all squirt & deflection, eliminate it. I'll be at the Hopkins Expo for 3 days, and I plan to do a free instruction clinic each day. On the 2nd day I will offer a ask me any 20 questions, if somebody will ask me that question there, I will answer it & demo how to perform this technique.
www.fastlarrypool.com (http://www.fastlarrypool.com) Shoot straight, innovate, no fear, never give up, VINI, VIDI, VICI, Fast Larry Guninger

Vapros
03-07-2003, 08:38 PM
Thanks for your help in this matter. I have been using a Predator shaft on my Falcon cue for several years, but still feel that deflection is hurting my shot-making. I have been told by a couple of people lately that not all the Predator shafts are created equal, and that mine seems to be less stiff than some others.

I was about to have a local cuemaker make me a shaft of about 13.3 mm, hoping it would be the answer. Your response, and a post by Fred Agnir, have indicated that this is not the way to go.

Thanks again.

Ken
03-07-2003, 09:18 PM
Here are two sources for info about squirt:

http://www.cuemaster.com/RSB/squirt.htm

http://www.playpool.com/download.php?op=MostPopular

At the playpool site you will have to scroll down to find the article by Shepard. I first was told about the phenomenon about 1960 but I don't recall that it had a name. I just know that some very simple shots could be messed up by the cue ball going off the predicted line. My feeling back then was that it only affected shots hit very hard. I don't remember anyone trying to explain why it happened.
KenCT

Fred Agnir
03-10-2003, 08:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr> I'm hoping for some knowledgeable comment and input on the matter of squirt and deflection. Are they the same?<hr /></blockquote>The term "squirt" is the angle the cueball leaves the tip (relative to the aim line). Most people call this "cueball deflection." It should not be confused in any way shape or form to "shaft deflection."

[ QUOTE ]
Fred Agnir, posting a few days ago, told us that it is not the stiffness of the shaft that reduces squirt, but rather the 'tip-end mass'. The less the better. <hr /></blockquote>An important word in that description is "effective." It's the "effective tip-end mass." That is, effective end-mass is the amount of mass at the tip end that effects the tip/cueball collision.

For example, Meucci's ferrule design is such that the ferrule is not in contact with the tenon (or it decouples during collision), if I recall correctly. So, on impact, none of the tenon's mass is effecting the collision, (until the ferrule buckles enough to actually touch the ferrule). So, even though the tenon adds mass to the tip-end, there is less "effective tip-end mass" in the collision.

Although I do believe that the shaft stiffness can contribute to the effective tip-end mass, I don't think there's a study that indicates that the stiffness is significant.

[ QUOTE ]
So - how about using a stiff shaft, 13 mm or a little more, with a smaller ferrule, like maybe 12 mm. Would that be an effective combination? It would be a funny-looking thing, but is that the way to reduce squirt? Or deflection? <hr /></blockquote>
Having a smaller ferrule would be one way to reduce the effective tip-end mass. A billiard taper down to 12mm or less accomplishes the same thing.

[ QUOTE ]
Alternatively, what about beveling the cue tip, so that less surface contacts the cueball?<hr /></blockquote>I don't think that will significantly do anything. I'm assuming that with the compliancy of a tip, the contact patch area is the same for any tip shape, as long as it doesn't slip (miscue).

[ QUOTE ]
Is there any downside to cutting back on squirt? <hr /></blockquote>The biggest downside for me is that I've been shooting with squirt compensation for so long that anytime I try a shot with, say, a Predator cue, it's entirely too backwards for me. I'd have to start all over again in learning how to aim. I'm not willing to do that today.

Fred

03-10-2003, 11:03 AM
Fred said a very important thing I would like to elaborate on. He said if he put a preditor on his cue, it would take him a while to adjust to it. I was playing with a Rambo in the 80's, and then went to the top end Falcon that Nick &amp; Lee used to win Player of the year with. It was a $2500 cue. The best are winning with it, so it can be too bad you think.

The Falcon is maybe a med to light stiff hit. I had special shafts made for my Rambo, so I was hitting stiff at that time, &amp; moving to the Falcon was about the same hit.

When the Preditor shafts hit the market, I put one on &amp; began to use it. Immediately I could see a marked reduction in the deflection, and also Immediately I could not make a ball shooting far away with english, because the curve of the cb factor has changed. After much practice in a week, I was back in dead punch, I had learned the new curve &amp; my cpu has made the adjustment.

A few years later I began to play with the Schuler, and was up at the factory in Chicago having some shafts special made for me to my specs. Ray Schuler spotted my preditor shaft in my bag &amp; asked me, do you have a deflection problem, A, answer no. Have you every had a deflection problem, A, no. Do you have one now, A, no, then Ray said, then why are you using that shaft to make an adjustment to a problem a pro like you does not have, there was nothing to fix. Ray had a point, once a pro get's on a cue, he has made the adjustment to the deflection, he can shoot table length hitting low draw at 4:30, and draw back down table length, &amp; hit the spot he aims at. The pro is playing every day, all day long.

The club player has a job, &amp; plays now &amp; then. He can never adjust to deflection, he just cant put in enough time to learn &amp; control it.

Bob Meucci's concept is why even go through that in the first place, just play with the cue that offers the least deflection, then there is less to compensate &amp; adjust to.
If you are a pro, &amp; playing with a cue that deflects a lot, no matter how well you think you are compensating, the deflection is probably causing you to miss 2 shots during a long match, &amp; 2 misses is usually the difference between winning &amp; losing on the pro level. The misses this curving shafts does to the club player is much, much worse.

The point here is if you change cues, or shafts, be prepared to spend at least a week playing &amp; practicing to adjust to the new hit, feel &amp; curve of the cue ball. This same learning curve applies if you increase or decrease the deflection you are now playing with.

A word of warning, to all of you guys out there playing with the cues jacked up in the air on just about every shot you take, &amp; I see a ton of you playing that way. If you dont hit the cue ball dead in the center, you are doomed. Every time you are hitting a little left or right of center, you are hitting what I call a curve shot, which is technically a Masse. The chances you have of making the cue ball arrive at the exact spot you aimed at, are for you zero. For a pro, he can do this, the club player cannot. Learn to rub the rail with your shaft when you stroke, and play with a level cue, only jack up for a specific purpose, to produce some funky draw or jump. Your normal shots will curve less, the more level your cue gets to the bed of the table. I will be doing a demo on deflection, how to beat it, and how to produce a level cue stroke at the Hopkins Expo, the clinic is free to attend. Come see me there. Best Wishes, Fast Larry Guninger

Paul_Mon
03-10-2003, 12:19 PM
Larry,
First and foremost, thanks for taking the time to use the tab and enter key.

Can you please answer a question that I've asked of you in another thread? Can you perform jumps with a Predator shaft?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> A word of warning, to all of you guys out there playing with the cues jacked up in the air on just about every shot you take, &amp; I see a ton of you playing that way. If you dont hit the cue ball dead in the center, you are doomed. Every time you are hitting a little left or right of center, you are hitting what I call a curve shot, which is technically a Masse. The chances you have of making the cue ball arrive at the exact spot you aimed at, are for you zero. For a pro, he can do this, the club player cannot. Learn to rub the rail with your shaft when you stroke, and play with a level cue, only jack up for a specific purpose, to produce some funky draw or jump. Your normal shots will curve less, the more level your cue gets to the bed of the table. I will be doing a demo on deflection, how to beat it, and how to produce a level cue stroke at the Hopkins Expo, the clinic is free to attend. Come see me there. Best Wishes, Fast Larry Guninger <hr /></blockquote>


It is amazing how many decent players still do this. Whenever I see my opponent jacked up, even a little, I know that bad things may happen to them soon.

best regards

Paul Mon

SharpCat
03-10-2003, 05:12 PM
I've played people in league who jack up on nearly every shot. They just don't have a clue. They will never improve their game shooting like that.

03-10-2003, 10:40 PM
Dear Paul mon, I have not played with a Preditor shaft in a couple of years. I still use the shaft to make some Masses.
I have done nothing but praise this shaft &amp; company on a dozen former posts.

I can take just about any cue or shaft &amp; find something for you it does not do well, and several things it does great. All I was trying to say was when I played with the older preditors, they did not jump well, and neither do the Meucci red dots. Maybe they have a new product out that has solved that problem, if so please correct me at once.

If I was faced with a jump, I would not use my preditor, I would pull out my Schuler or Stealth Jump butt, put a shaft on, and then jump knowing I have a higher percentage of making the shot. Why fight something or force a cue to do something it just does not do well.

This is why I carry 2 cues, a jump &amp; a Masse butt, 4 cues. Now every possible type of shot that can come up, I have the right tool to perform it.

In Golf, Jack Nicklaus does not tee off with just one club, he has 14, to make the many different &amp; various shots he will encounter. One cue does limit your options in pool. I dont carry a break cue, I just put on a strong break shaft. I now have 2 regular cue butts, 6 shafts, and 2 short butts, jump &amp; Masse, it all fits in one 3x6 cue case. Regards, Fast Larry

Paul_Mon
03-11-2003, 06:18 AM
Thanks for the answer Larry. This question about 314's and how they jump poorly came about from the thread on jumping. My opinion on jumping is this: "Jump with what you shoot with" and that includes not using your break cue. It's ironic that I feel this way because I for one am severely limited using a 314 playing cue.

Even more ironic that you mentioned golf. In golf I spend money on the latest equipment in order to improve. But would never buy or use anything that wasn't approved by the USGA. In pool I won't spend $75 on a jump cue that would increase my jumping skills in minutes.

Paul Mon

bluewolf
03-11-2003, 06:27 AM
Sorry to be a bother but I am somewhat dyslexic and get lost in all of the words.

How about in two sentences-

squirt is--
deflection is---

then very simply
a stick which has x properties decreases squirt--
a stick which has x properties decreases deflection---

none of that 2 oclock 4 oclock stuff pleeze, it fries my brain...\

sorry.. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Laura

TomBrooklyn
03-11-2003, 06:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> Sorry to be a bother but I am somewhat dyslexic <hr /></blockquote>I knew this dyslexic guy who sold his soul to Santa. He became a pimp and bought a warehouse. He wound up getting arrested and hired a lawyer who had recently passed the bra exam. Later, he repented and went to a priest, at which time he realized there really was a Dog.

Fred Agnir
03-11-2003, 07:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> Sorry to be a bother but I am somewhat dyslexic and get lost in all of the words.

How about in two sentences-

squirt is--
deflection is---

then very simply
a stick which has x properties decreases squirt--
a stick which has x properties decreases deflection---

none of that 2 oclock 4 oclock stuff pleeze, it fries my brain...\

sorry.. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Laura <hr /></blockquote>
How about this, Laura. For everyone that isn't a scientist or in the sciences, for pool, when people are talking about "squirt", it's the same thing as when they're talking about "cueball deflection." If you need something further, please seek me out next week.

For the science and engineer-minded, I don't need to tell you why "deflection" is the incorrect terminology when describing "cueball deflection."

Fred

bluewolf
03-11-2003, 09:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> Sorry to be a bother but I am somewhat dyslexic <hr /></blockquote>I knew this dyslexic guy who sold his soul to Santa. He became a pimp and bought a warehouse. He wound up getting arrested and hired a lawyer who had recently passed the bra exam. Later, he repented and went to a priest, at which time he realized there really was a Dog. <hr /></blockquote>

This is cute. Thanks for the joke, Tom.

Laura

Popcorn
03-11-2003, 09:45 AM
I see that all the time on billiard cues. They may go down a millimeter over the length of the ferrule. Palmer used to make a ferrule that was bell shaped. It was bigger at the tip. It gave more tip surface yet let you play with a smaller shaft if you liked. I think tapering the ferrule bigger or smaller, is not that wacky if you think about it.

SPetty
03-11-2003, 10:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> I knew this dyslexic guy who sold his soul to Santa. He became a pimp and bought a warehouse. He wound up getting arrested and hired a lawyer who had recently passed the bra exam. Later, he repented and went to a priest, at which time he realized there really was a Dog. <hr /></blockquote>And he had a bumper sticker on his arc that said "Dyslexics Untie!"