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Yuppie
03-09-2003, 11:08 PM
If a player misses a ball completely when trying to commit a safety and scratches, is that a 1 point or two point penalty? Then is that player on one or two fouls?

L.S. Dennis
03-09-2003, 11:22 PM
This is a one point penalty if I'm not mistaken. I don't recall a situation like that occurring when I've played straight pool but I beleive that to be the case.

Rod
03-09-2003, 11:23 PM
Costs one point and is on one foul if he wasn't on a foul before the shot. You can't commit two fouls one one stroke, well you could I guess but it's still only one foul.

Rod

Paul_Mon
03-10-2003, 05:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Yuppie:</font><hr> If a player misses a ball completely when trying to commit a safety and scratches, is that a 1 point or two point penalty? Then is that player on one or two fouls? <hr /></blockquote>

It is considered one foul. You are always charged with one foul and penalized one ball on a foul. There are two exceptions to this. On the opening break you are charged with a 2 ball penalty for not making the safety as required. On a third consecutive foul you are penalized an additional 15 balls.

Paul Mon

Jay M
03-10-2003, 12:58 PM
One more possible case. I saw Efren get called on a deliberate foul. Not an intentional foul, a deliberate foul... 15 points and rebreak for tapping the cue ball with the ferrule of his cue when playing an intentional.

Jay M

Paul_Mon
03-10-2003, 01:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jay M:</font><hr> One more possible case. I saw Efren get called on a deliberate foul. Not an intentional foul, a deliberate foul... 15 points and rebreak for tapping the cue ball with the ferrule of his cue when playing an intentional.

Jay M <hr /></blockquote>

That's a new one for me. I remember talking about the Efern Reyes foul. At the time he did not know it was deliberate. He was trying to play an intentional. Are you saying that deliberate fouls are always 15 balls plus reracking?

smfsrca
03-10-2003, 01:14 PM
The 2 point penalty assessed for a "breaking violation" is not a foul and does not count toward the three foul rule.

Jay M
03-10-2003, 01:16 PM
Honestly, I don't know. That was the only time I've seen a deliberate foul called. I'd guess that it is an actual rule, as that was during the US Open (I think), but I wouldn't know when to call it and when not to.

Jay M

Paul_Mon
03-10-2003, 01:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote smfsrca:</font><hr> The 2 point penalty assessed for a "breaking violation" is not a foul and does not count toward the three foul rule.
<hr /></blockquote>

Your right. Thanks for the clarification.

Fred Agnir
03-10-2003, 01:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Paul_Mon:</font><hr>
That's a new one for me. I remember talking about the Efern Reyes foul. At the time he did not know it was deliberate. He was trying to play an intentional. Are you saying that deliberate fouls are always 15 balls plus reracking? <hr /></blockquote>The deliberate fouls like catching the cueball going into a pocket or moving an object ball deliberately get you a 15 pt penalty. Just to be clear, deliberate fouls are different than "intentional fouls." When I first learned to play straight pool, all legal methods of failing to comply with a good shot was called a "scratch." Therefore, we would say "intentional scratch", even if the cueball didn't go into a hole. That way, it's clear that what we were doing was still within the legal rules. A deliberate foul is not within the legal limits of the rules.

That being said, I was there when Efren was called on the deliberate, and in my opinion to this day, even after getting it wrong on the BCA referees test, I think the BCA rulebook is clear that touching the cueball with the ferrule for an intentional foul is *not* a "deliberate." And furthermore, I think the BCA front office is incorrect as the rule is explicitly (or not explicitly) written. It is explicitly written in my 1977 rulebook, but for some reason is no longer explicitly there in the current rulebook. My only conclusion therefore is that it explicitly is not a rule anymore.

It isn't listed in the deliberate section (section 6.7.5 below), and it's clealy a "warning" in the intentional foul general rules section (3.29):

Rule 6.7

5. A player may not catch, touch or in any way interfere with a ball as it travels toward a pocket or the rack area on a shot (to include catching a ball as it enters a pocket by having a hand in the ball as it enters a pocket by having a hand in the pocket). Doing so is a special “deliberate foul” and is penalized one point for the foul and an additional 15 point penalty, for a total of 16 points. ..

and

3.29 SPECIAL INTENTIONAL FOUL PENALTY
The cue ball in play shall not be intentionally struck with anything other than a cue’s attached tip (such as the ferrule, shaft, etc.). While such contact is automatically a foul under the provisions of Rule 3.19, if the referee deems the contact to be intentional, he shall warn the player once during a match that a second violation during that match will result in the loss of the match by forfeiture. If a second violation does occur, the match must be forfeited.
--------------------

Compare that to the 1975 rules:

"If a player touches the cue ball or an object ball with any part of the cue other than the tip, it shall be declared a deliberate foul. The offender shall be penalized 15 pts...'

There is no mention of the "ferrule foul" in my 1985 BCA rulebook either.

So, why was it explicit before, and no longer is explicit?Someone care to quote to me the explicit rule that touching the cueball intentionally with the ferrule is an automatic deliberate foul and therefore a 15 pt. major penalty in 14.1 in today's rules?

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks he got that one right.