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03-10-2003, 01:11 PM
i've never seen this mentioned here so i'll just throw it in as a tip, fwiw.

you can aim the heck out of a carom, making it go up or down, that is farther or closer or a wider or narrower angle by working with the high or low spin on the c.b.

i don't know what the math is but if you put a whole pile of high on the c.b. then some of that, maybe 20-30% will transfer to the moving ball in the carom causing it have a little bit of low as it comes off the carom ball.

of course there are variables like how clean or sticky the balls are and how long the shot is but it works and, done right, it works a lot.

dan

Wally_in_Cincy
03-10-2003, 01:42 PM
you talkin' bout all caroms or just the carom where the two balls are frozen?

03-10-2003, 02:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> you talkin' bout all caroms or just the carom where the two balls are frozen? <hr /></blockquote>

thought about mentioning frozen since that's when most people think they are stuck with what the balls give them and if they're not frozen you probably have room to aim where the first ball will hit the second. it works regardless.

dan

Wally_in_Cincy
03-10-2003, 02:45 PM
The direction of a frozen combo can definitely be changed with high or low. I need to practice that again. Thanks for the reminder.

Non-frozen, I don't think I've ever tried. Have to do that soon.

Averroes
03-10-2003, 03:36 PM
There is a pretty (and useful) way to see the effect of transferred high or low on a carom... Useful in one-pocket, and pretty common on the trick-shot circuit.

Place an object ball near the first diamond on the short rail, freeze another one to it at about a 45-degree angle (viz. 1/2-ball farther from the rail, 1/2-ball farther from the pocket). Hit the first ball towards the near corner pocket with as much draw as you can muster, and try to get the second ball to force-follow into the corner while knocking the first out of the way.

Fun for hours trying to groove that one. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Nik

phil in sofla
03-10-2003, 11:21 PM
I 'knew' I could get the object ball to take draw from top on the cue ball before I believe it.

That didn't really seem possible, until I gave it a try. Sure enough, the ball backed up short of that tangent line.

Playing Irish billiards, caroming object balls in off the cue ball, has this come up a lot.

Alfie
03-11-2003, 12:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Averroes:</font><hr> There is a pretty (and useful) way to see the effect of transferred high or low on a carom... Useful in one-pocket, and pretty common on the trick-shot circuit.

Place an object ball near the first diamond on the short rail, freeze another one to it at about a 45-degree angle (viz. 1/2-ball farther from the rail, 1/2-ball farther from the pocket). Hit the first ball towards the near corner pocket with as much draw as you can muster, and try to get the second ball to force-follow into the corner while knocking the first out of the way. <hr /></blockquote>That's a frozen ball effect, not a spin transfer effect, IMO.

Alfie
03-11-2003, 01:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote phil in sofla:</font><hr> I 'knew' I could get the object ball to take draw from top on the cue ball before I believe it.

That didn't really seem possible, until I gave it a try. Sure enough, the ball backed up short of that tangent line.
<hr /></blockquote>Doesn't the mass frozen to the first ball have to be greater than that of one ball? (like the first ball must be frozen to a cluster)

bluewolf
03-11-2003, 06:01 AM
You guys are way over my head!!! I thought a carom was when you glance you ob against another ball to make it go in.HD post made sense but And now you guys are talking about frozen balls????

Fred Agnir
03-11-2003, 08:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr>
Doesn't the mass frozen to the first ball have to be greater than that of one ball? (like the first ball must be frozen to a cluster) <hr /></blockquote>I'd say, "yes."

Fred

03-11-2003, 09:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr>
Doesn't the mass frozen to the first ball have to be greater than that of one ball? (like the first ball must be frozen to a cluster) <hr /></blockquote>I'd say, "yes."

.................................................. .........

this is getting spread over several postings so let's see if i understand what i'm about to disagree with.

can you pull the carom ball inside the tangent line with high english when the ball is caroming off a single ball and not a cluster? absolutely. do you need the mass of a cluster? no way.

the key is fairly low velocity on the c.b. with very high top(or bottom) spin on the cb. enough spin will transfer to the o.b. to adjust the angle a quite a bit.

now, fred, am i disagreeing with you?

dan

Fred Agnir
03-11-2003, 09:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote houstondan:</font><hr> can you pull the carom ball inside the tangent line with high english when the ball is caroming off a single ball and not a cluster? absolutely. do you need the mass of a cluster? no way.

the key is fairly low velocity on the c.b. with very high top(or bottom) spin on the cb. enough spin will transfer to the o.b. to adjust the angle a quite a bit.

now, fred, am i disagreeing with you? <hr /></blockquote>Sounds like we disagree. Here's the shot:

START(
%AY0O8%EW7O7%Pb8P0%QZ1U3%RU7U3%S`5H8%T`5T3%YY3Z4%Z Y1P7%[X4Z6
%\X3P5%eB4`2
)END

It's been several years since I even tried this to see what the possibilities are. The lines depicting the tangent and the 1-ball's tangent line are shown.

I think that making the frozen one-ball go towards the B side is no problem for several reasons, the main one being the slightly elastic collision.

However, I don't believe that you can get the one-ball to pull towards the A-side without adding another ball behind the 5-ball. Table time would easily prove or disprove this, so I'll try today.

Fred

Paul_Mon
03-11-2003, 09:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Here's the shot:

START(
%AY0O8%EW7O7%Pb8P0%QZ1U3%RU7U3%S`5H8%T`5T3%YY3Z4%Z Y1P7%[X4Z6
%\X3P5%eB4`2
)END

It's been several years since I even tried this to see what the possibilities are. The lines depicting the tangent and the 1-ball's tangent line are shown.

I think that making the frozen one-ball go towards the B side is no problem for several reasons, the main one being the slightly elastic collision.

However, I don't believe that you can get the one-ball to pull towards the A-side without adding another ball behind the 5-ball. Table time would easily prove or disprove this, so I'll try today.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred,

Unless your balls are defective (see a doctor) you'll definitely be able to pull the object ball towards "A". I never even considered this shot until I saw it in "99 Critical Shots" by Ray Martin. Overall I was disappointed with this book but learning this one shot was worth it.

Paul Mon

03-11-2003, 10:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Paul_Mon:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Here's the shot:

START(
%AY0O8%EW7O7%Pb8P0%QZ1U3%RU7U3%S`5H8%T`5T3%YY3Z4%Z Y1P7%[X4Z6
%\X3P5%eB4`2
)END

It's been several years since I even tried this to see what the possibilities are. The lines depicting the tangent and the 1-ball's tangent line are shown.

I think that making the frozen one-ball go towards the B side is no problem for several reasons, the main one being the slightly elastic collision.

However, I don't believe that you can get the one-ball to pull towards the A-side without adding another ball behind the 5-ball. Table time would easily prove or disprove this, so I'll try today.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred,

Unless your balls are defective (see a doctor) you'll definitely be able to pull the object ball towards "A". I never even considered this shot until I saw it in "99 Critical Shots" by Ray Martin. Overall I was disappointed with this book but learning this one shot was worth it.

Paul Mon <hr /></blockquote>

i'm glad i brought this one up. i think a lot of people would be suprised by setting up a couple of frozen balls, eyeballing the tangent-line then playing with the high and low. have the pair a ways from the pocket, maybe a foot to let the effect take hold.

i learned this from my grandfather when i was a kid. he would show me straight pool clusters and ask me to find the break-out shot. not there, sez i. watch sez he. again, for max effect, keep the forward velocity of the cb low. on an 18" shot, carom to hole, i'll bet you can adjust that thing 4" or more.

dan

Fran Crimi
03-11-2003, 10:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote houstondan:</font><hr> can you pull the carom ball inside the tangent line with high english when the ball is caroming off a single ball and not a cluster? absolutely. do you need the mass of a cluster? no way.

the key is fairly low velocity on the c.b. with very high top(or bottom) spin on the cb. enough spin will transfer to the o.b. to adjust the angle a quite a bit.

now, fred, am i disagreeing with you? <hr /></blockquote>Sounds like we disagree. Here's the shot:

START(
%AY0O8%EW7O7%Pb8P0%QZ1U3%RU7U3%S`5H8%T`5T3%YY3Z4%Z Y1P7%[X4Z6
%\X3P5%eB4`2
)END

It's been several years since I even tried this to see what the possibilities are. The lines depicting the tangent and the 1-ball's tangent line are shown.

I think that making the frozen one-ball go towards the B side is no problem for several reasons, the main one being the slightly elastic collision.

However, I don't believe that you can get the one-ball to pull towards the A-side without adding another ball behind the 5-ball. Table time would easily prove or disprove this, so I'll try today.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Somewhere along the line you guys started talking about kiss shots where Dan's comment is about caroms (non-frozen balls). With a kiss shot, you can manipulate the tangent line with force. (I'm not sure draw or follow is as much a factor (if any) as force and resistance in that shot. People tend to hit the ball harder with draw, thinking that draw is what's making the shot change when it could just be the force of the strike.)

This seems to be completely different than the topic Dan brought up, which is when the balls are not frozen. Is there a transfer of spin from the cb to the ob? I think we've all beat that topic to death and the consensus is yes there is. Can that top or back spin that was transferred to the ob be used to draw or follow it off of another ob? Yes, probably that too. I think it's risky business, but it seems possible. If you can draw or follow a cb off of another ball, then it's clear that if there's spin on a ball it will react off of another ball with that spin.

The question I have is why use draw or follow in a carom? Why not just adjust your aiming point since the balls aren't frozen?

Fran

Paul_Mon
03-11-2003, 10:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote houstondan:</font><hr> [
i learned this from my grandfather when i was a kid. he would show me straight pool clusters and ask me to find the break-out shot. not there, sez i. watch sez he. again, for max effect, keep the forward velocity of the cb low. on an 18" shot, carom to hole, i'll bet you can adjust that thing 4" or more.

dan <hr /></blockquote>

Dan,
It's been my experience that you can influence the carom more with draw than follow. You're right about the 4" from 18" away. BTW, my grandfather showed me too. He owned a saloon in the 30's that had 2 pool tables and 6 bowling alley's. Grampa taught me lots.

Paul Mon

Fred Agnir
03-11-2003, 10:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Paul_Mon:</font><hr>
Unless your balls are defective (see a doctor) you'll definitely be able to pull the object ball towards "A". I never even considered this shot until I saw it in "99 Critical Shots" by Ray Martin. Overall I was disappointed with this book but learning this one shot was worth it.

Paul Mon <hr /></blockquote>Set it up tonight Paul. Report your results tomorrow. Use a straight edge as the tangent line. Remember, we're not talking about clusters.

Fred

03-11-2003, 11:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote houstondan:</font><hr> can you pull the carom ball inside the tangent line with high english when the ball is caroming off a single ball and not a cluster? absolutely. do you need the mass of a cluster? no way.

the key is fairly low velocity on the c.b. with very high top(or bottom) spin on the cb. enough spin will transfer to the o.b. to adjust the angle a quite a bit.

now, fred, am i disagreeing with you? <hr /></blockquote>Sounds like we disagree. Here's the shot:

START(
%AY0O8%EW7O7%Pb8P0%QZ1U3%RU7U3%S`5H8%T`5T3%YY3Z4%Z Y1P7%[X4Z6
%\X3P5%eB4`2
)END

It's been several years since I even tried this to see what the possibilities are. The lines depicting the tangent and the 1-ball's tangent line are shown.

I think that making the frozen one-ball go towards the B side is no problem for several reasons, the main one being the slightly elastic collision.

However, I don't believe that you can get the one-ball to pull towards the A-side without adding another ball behind the 5-ball. Table time would easily prove or disprove this, so I'll try today.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Somewhere along the line you guys started talking about kiss shots where Dan's comment is about caroms (non-frozen balls). With a kiss shot, you can manipulate the tangent line with force. (I'm not sure draw or follow is as much a factor (if any) as force and resistance in that shot. People tend to hit the ball harder with draw, thinking that draw is what's making the shot change when it could just be the force of the strike.)

This seems to be completely different than the topic Dan brought up, which is when the balls are not frozen. Is there a transfer of spin from the cb to the ob? I think we've all beat that topic to death and the consensus is yes there is. Can that top or back spin that was transferred to the ob be used to draw or follow it off of another ob? Yes, probably that too. I think it's risky business, but it seems possible. If you can draw or follow a cb off of another ball, then it's clear that if there's spin on a ball it will react off of another ball with that spin.

The question I have is why use draw or follow in a carom? Why not just adjust your aiming point since the balls aren't frozen?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

fran, mostly, i'm talking about changing the effective tangent line where the balls are frozen. all i'm suggesting is that people try some very high or very low at moderate speed and see what the ball does.

as to the terminology, boy is that confusing. unfortunately, i have a copy of shamos' "complete" where he defines lotsa terms. he says that, in pocket billiards, "carom" is "a shot in which the object ball strikes another before entering the pocket or in which the cue ball hits one object ball before pocketing another. 1948-mosconi, 1977 fels 59, 1980 balukas 194." he does say this is also called a billiard shot. given the principle that a ball cannot strike a cushion to which it is already frozen i think your correction to disallow the term "carom" to frozen balls is correct. but, he says a "kiss shot", in pocket billiards, is "a shot in which an object ball is made to CAROM off another ball on it's way to a pocket."

holdit...if it's froze then it can't be a...

i will now sit quietly in the corner and mumble to myself while drooling.

dan

Fran Crimi
03-11-2003, 12:20 PM
The BCA rule book is just as confusing and misleading. It's always been my understanding that there must be a strike in order for there to be a carom (definition of the verb 'carom'.) I guess the question is whether there is a strike or not when two balls are frozen. If you were shooting at frozen balls with the intention of pocketing the 2nd ball, they would act as one ball, which means that one is not striking the other.

I think that both Mike Shamus and the BCA should reconsider their definitions.

Regarding your comment of hitting the ball with a medium stroke both with high and low, I'll be certain to give it a try. I'll set up a control by marking the table, and hit the shot with center, high and low with medium strokes and see what happens.

Fran

Fred Agnir
03-11-2003, 12:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Set it up tonight Paul. Report your results tomorrow. Use a straight edge as the tangent line. Remember, we're not talking about clusters. <hr /></blockquote>I just got back from the pool hall. Conditions: Olhausen tables, Simonis cloth, Belgian Premiere balls.

Frozen combination per the previous Wei diagram.

Results: after shooting well over 50 shots at various angles, speeds (including slow to moderate), and various tip positions from a little high to edge-of-miscue high, there was no evidence that the first object ball moved towards the A-side.

START(
%AY0O8%BZ4[0%EW7O7%Pb8P0%QZ1U3%RU7U3%S`5H8%T`5T3%YY3Z4%ZY1P7
%[X4Z6%\X3P5%eB4`2
)END

It's important to note that each setup was measured such that I knew the balls were frozen, and where the tangent line was pointing. I placed an object ball &lt;5mm towards the A-side. Surely, if any significant pull was happening, 5mm would be travelled. Not once during a measured setup did the frozen carom hit that object ball. That's well over 50 shots.

It's also important to note that I did hit that target ball three times when I didn't measure the setup. Three out of more than 20 non-measured setups.

Finally, on angles nearly straight in, the first ball follows to the B-side. This is consistent with the idea that the inelastic collision would push the first ball forward in this particular case. Also, the cueball can't get out of the way if the object ball did decide to miraculously draw back.

I'd love to hear anyone else's findings on a table.

Fred

Paul_Mon
03-11-2003, 12:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Paul_Mon:</font><hr>
Unless your balls are defective (see a doctor) you'll definitely be able to pull the object ball towards "A". I never even considered this shot until I saw it in "99 Critical Shots" by Ray Martin. Overall I was disappointed with this book but learning this one shot was worth it.

Paul Mon <hr /></blockquote>Set it up tonight Paul. Report your results tomorrow. Use a straight edge as the tangent line. Remember, we're not talking about clusters.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Will do Fred. One thing I noticed in the past with these frozen ball shots is that the cue ball used will have an effect. I've got polished Centenials and will use a new polished blue circle and a used polished red circle to see if there is any significant difference.

Paul

Wally_in_Cincy
03-11-2003, 12:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>

....I'll be certain to give it a try. I'll set up a control by marking the table, and hit the shot with center, high and low with medium strokes and see what happens.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

I believe you will find that draw and follow will change the path of the OB. I read about this a couple years ago. I think it was Buddy Hall in P &amp; B. I tried it and it does work....I think... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fred Agnir
03-11-2003, 12:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
I believe you will find that draw and follow will change the path of the OB. I read about this a couple years ago. I think it was Buddy Hall in P &amp; B. I tried it and it does work....I think... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>Reading is one thing. Doing is another.

Making the object ball go forward isn't in question. That's a standard shot. But, I think there are people that have made the conclusion that if you can bend the object ball forward, then it means you can bend the object ball backwards from a carom. I don't think so.

Fred

Paul_Mon
03-11-2003, 12:49 PM
Fred,

I've got so much trust and respect for you that I now believe that what I saw in the past was an illusion, NOT. I'll set it up when I get home using hole reinforcements to position the balls.

Paul

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> I just got back from the pool hall. Conditions: Olhausen tables, Simonis cloth, Belgian Premiere balls.

Frozen combination per the previous Wei diagram.

Results: after shooting well over 50 shots at various angles, speeds (including slow to moderate), and various tip positions from a little high to edge-of-miscue high, there was no evidence that the first object ball moved towards the A-side.

START(
%AY0O8%BZ4[0%EW7O7%Pb8P0%QZ1U3%RU7U3%S`5H8%T`5T3%YY3Z4%ZY1P7
%[X4Z6%\X3P5%eB4`2
)END

It's important to note that each setup was measured such that I knew the balls were frozen, and where the tangent line was pointing. I placed an object ball &lt;5mm towards the A-side. Surely, if any significant pull was happening, 5mm would be travelled. Not once during a measured setup did the frozen carom hit that object ball. That's well over 50 shots.

It's also important to note that I did hit that target ball three times when I didn't measure the setup. Three out of more than 20 non-measured setups.

Finally, on angles nearly straight in, the first ball follows to the B-side. This is consistent with the idea that the inelastic collision would push the first ball forward in this particular case. Also, the cueball can't get out of the way if the object ball did decide to miraculously draw back.

I'd love to hear anyone else's findings on a table.

Fred

<hr /></blockquote>

Rod
03-11-2003, 01:05 PM
Making the object ball go forward isn't in question. That's a standard shot. But, I think there are people that have made the conclusion that if you can bend the object ball forward, then it means you can bend the object ball backwards from a carom. I don't think so.

Fred

I don't think so either at least to any significant or noticable degree. Center ball is likely to have the most effect if any or a stun type of stroke. It would have to be one of those shots where a few thousand's of an inch might come into play.

Rod

Wally_in_Cincy
03-11-2003, 01:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Reading is one thing. Doing is another.

Making the object ball go forward isn't in question. That's a standard shot. But, I think there are people that have made the conclusion that if you can bend the object ball forward, then it means you can bend the object ball backwards from a carom. I don't think so.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Well, I did practice this shot but it's been over a year. Perhaps my memory is not clear.

Wally~~will attempt to do tommorow.

Fran Crimi
03-11-2003, 04:49 PM
It's no means scientific because I can't guarantee that I struck the cue ball with the exact same speed or made contact with the ob in the exact same place every time, but here's what I found:

First I set up this shot and I lined it up so the tangent line was towards the left inside corner of the pocket. That would mean the shot should hit the left point of the pocket:

START(
%A[5L7%BZ1L8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O 4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PO7U2%UZ9C6%VZ7L3%W Z2D2%XZ0L0
)END

I shot the shot with soft, medium and hard strokes, each with stun, draw and follow. Here's what I found:

1) Stun and follow gave the same reaction on both soft and medium strokes, which was the ob hitting the left point.

2.) With a soft stroke and draw, I was able to push both balls forward to where the new line between the balls was significantly higher, and I could actually make the shot miss substantially to the right of the pocket.

3.) With a medium stroke and draw, I could make the shot hit the right point of the pocket but could not get it to go farther to the right than that.

4.) With a hard stroke with draw, the ball went into the center of the pocket, but I could not get it to go farther right than that.

5.)With a hard stroke, I got the exact same reaction for all three: the ball went into the center of the pocket.

My conclusions with a 2-ball kiss shot: When hard force is applied, the balls will push a certain amount forward changing the tangent line, slightly, regardless of what type of spin, or no spin is applied to the cb. When a soft or medium force is applied, which doesn't literally 'push' the balls forward, there is no change in tangent line other than when draw is applied. Two frozen balls will react as one, so when the spin of draw (rather than force) is applied, both balls will roll forward.

I then placed a third ball frozen to the two and found the following.

1) The tangent line for stun and follow and draw with all stroke speeds did move slightly back. The reactions were all relatively the same as with two balls, except that everything was approx. 1/2 inch to the left of the reactions previously with two balls.

My overall conclusion is that draw and the physics of force and resistance are the only two factors that change the tangent line of a kiss shot. I could be wrong but it doesn't appear to me that follow has any affect on the shot.

Fran

Wally_in_Cincy
03-11-2003, 05:00 PM
Well looks like you and Fred are on the same page. Great minds think alike? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Thanks. You just saved me about 20 minutes of practice time. LOL

Fred Agnir
03-12-2003, 08:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I shot the shot with soft, medium and hard strokes, each with stun, draw and follow. Here's what I found:

1) Stun and follow ... both soft and medium strokes,

2.) With a soft stroke and draw,

3.) With a medium stroke and draw,

4.) With a hard stroke with draw,

5.)With a hard stroke,

My conclusions with a 2-ball kiss shot: <hr /></blockquote>While we're at it, here's another comon two-ball frozen shot that might be interesting to try out with all the different strokes shown above. I'd like to see where the first ball goes for everyone.

The shot is the standard double spot-shot (like one-pocket), and the aim point would be as if you were driving the head ball (1-ball) to a point on the cushion (A) 1/10th the distance towards the pocket (as shown).

START(
%AN7O5%OM4O5%Pg9K1%QA3Q1%UD1Q4%Vg2K1%WN8Z4%XN7P4%[D0O7%\L6O5

)END

When I shoot this shot, with the fuller hit, every type of shot and spin makes the head ball (1-ball) go forward of the tangent line. Draw will shoot the 1-ball towards the pocket at most speeds. Center and follow, when hit hard enough, will come closer than most people would ever imagine.

Try it.

Fred