PDA

View Full Version : Unsportsmanlike conduct?



03-11-2003, 11:34 AM
After a league playoff game last night I had an opportunity to chat with a player who participated in the recent state 8-ball tourney & asked my opinion on this subject. During a game in the state tourney he played a safety by shooting one of his opponents balls into a cluster therefore tying it up & taking a foul. His opponent whined to the officials & they declared "loss of game for unsportsmanlike conduct". Nothing in the rules directly addresses this action & he stated this loss cost them the match. He discussed & then argued with the officials but, they wouldnt budge. This shot is legal in league play & I have used it myself on occasion.
I guess the question is: I know it's almost impossible to get an official to reverse but how can we get around these situations? Thanks, Dewey

03-11-2003, 11:39 AM
That situation truly is deplorable, and the only advice that I gan give on it is ask in advance what is considered unsportsmanlike conduct, so that you don't run "afoul" with the officials. Specifically bring up strategic fouls too, as that is what the basis of this thread is about. There isn't too much you can do, even pulling the rule book out of your (back pocket) that will change the officials minds, so the most you can do is know in advance how they view actual smart pool.

Rod
03-11-2003, 11:55 AM
Dewey,
Are you talking about using the c\b to shoot his opponents ball? If so it is an intentional foul nothing more or less.

If he shot the opponents ball direct with his cue, then hang the bas%%**. LOL

Rod

Wally_in_Cincy
03-11-2003, 12:22 PM
Like Rod said: "Are you talking about using the c\b to shoot his opponents ball?"

If so, that is a strategy I have used many times. No way is that loss of game.

Who sanctions this tournament and where did they find this supposed "ref"?

dg-in-centralpa
03-11-2003, 02:24 PM
I shoot in 2 different leagues for over 20 years and I shoot this shot alot. As long as you hit the cb first. Was bih being played or was it bar room rules? I know of a tournament recently where it was bar room rules which meant no safes or bih. What a bummer!

03-11-2003, 04:03 PM
This was a legitimate strategic safety with the cue ball shot into the opponents ball invoking an intentional foul.
I have never considered asking an official what actions would be considered "unsportsmanlike". Is intent the determining factor? This is from the rules sheet:
Tournament officials can at any time call a foul on a player for unsportsmanlike conduct or unnecessary delay of game. Abuse of equipment, poor sportsmanship or unethical conduct, as judged by the referee or tournament official may constitute a foul & may be grounds for forfeiture of game, forfeiture of match, expulsion from tournament, expulsion from tournament site, expulsion from future tournaments, forfeiture of funds & future prosecution .
Quite a price to pay for inept officiating. What recourse have we when we get caught up in a rules debate with an official? Even if you are proven in the right after the tourney what good does it do ya?
I cant think of a non-violent shot using the cue ball that would constitute "unsportsmanlike conduct", can you?
Thanks, Dewey

03-11-2003, 10:21 PM
Traffic cops & pool refs both have a lot of lattitude to read a thing as good or bad. If it's in the rule book, then do it, and what you did, I think is very smart advanced pool.

Unfortunately it drives red necks wild & they want to do harm to your body, so you never do this in a bar. In a tourney, the rule book is king. If you get what you think is a bad ruling, and it caused you to lose the match, you have 3 options,(1) be a nice guy & shut up & sit down. (2) Put a voodoo curse on the ref, (3) protest the game, and or the match, and get on the phone with the league operator.

If they don't get back to you on site, then appeal it to the league headquarters, and ask the operator to assist you on this. If they over rule the ref, then your two teams can meet & replay that match. Maybe your opponent fishes with the Ref, you never know.

Carry a rule book, know how to look up things, and argue from the book.
Always present your point, calmy, without emotion. Play enough pool, you are going to get some raw deals & bad calls, it happens in all sports even on national TV. Best Wishes, Fast Larry

Predator314
03-12-2003, 08:43 AM
Were you playing ball in hand? If so, then I think it's OK to shoot that shot. When I'm out of options, I try to lock up my opponents balls giving them ball in hand and hope they don't get out.

If you weren't playing BIH, then it's a pretty cheesy shot. I don't know if it's "unsportsmanlike", but it would piss a lot of people off. This is the reason we play BIH in our 8-ball tournies. It prevents things like this from happening.

WaltVA
03-12-2003, 11:04 PM
You didn't say what type of league or tournament it was. Locally, in our APA league shooting one of your opponents balls into a cluster to tie it up is an expected response to certain situations and no one thinks anything about it.

On the other hand, a couple of friends play in a non-handicapped "bar rules" league, where a "good-faith effort" to pocket a ball is required, and obvious safeties are a loss of game. Sounds like this might have been that kind of tournament.

Walt in VA

03-12-2003, 11:59 PM
This was the State 8-ball team tourney & ball-in-hand rules were in play. Was "intent" the deciding factor? I can only assume that, but what would happen if you mis-cued & the shot ended the same? Can a miscue be unsportsmanlike conduct? My conclusion is official misinterpertation of the rules.
Do whiners really deserve to win this way? This should never have occurred but, what can be done now? This is water under the bridge & will never be righted. I could tell it really left a bad taste in that young mans mouth for pool. If we don't have rules, we have nothing!
Thanks for your concerns, Dewey

Predator314
03-13-2003, 08:05 AM
If you're playing ball in hand, I think it is a fair shot. I've never heard of losing for unsportsmanlike conduct anyway. I would be pissed.

Barbara
03-13-2003, 11:26 AM
dewey,

It is impossible to get the ref to change their decision. Look at the refs in the NFL last season. At least some of them admitted they called wrong, but the outcome was still the same.

If that ref is a recognized ref from an organization, then I would talk to the organization and ask them what their assessment of the situation would have been.

The way you described the event sounded like the one opponent used the CB to put his opponent's ball into the cluster. That's an illegal shot, BIH to the sitting opponent, but not unsportsmanlike. Now if the shooter just pushed his opponent's ball into the cluster with his cue, that's unsportsmanlike and deserves a warning, unless he's had a previous warning along the same lines, then he should be forced to forfeit that game.

Barbara

03-13-2003, 05:56 PM
barbara, is there any kind of guidance offered in the ref training, other than what's in the book, about what crosses over into "unsportsmanlike'? it has always seemed a little murky to me.

dan...absolutely not questioning opinion below.



<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> dewey,

It is impossible to get the ref to change their decision. Look at the refs in the NFL last season. At least some of them admitted they called wrong, but the outcome was still the same.

If that ref is a recognized ref from an organization, then I would talk to the organization and ask them what their assessment of the situation would have been.

The way you described the event sounded like the one opponent used the CB to put his opponent's ball into the cluster. That's an illegal shot, BIH to the sitting opponent, but not unsportsmanlike. Now if the shooter just pushed his opponent's ball into the cluster with his cue, that's unsportsmanlike and deserves a warning, unless he's had a previous warning along the same lines, then he should be forced to forfeit that game.

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

Barbara
03-13-2003, 06:43 PM
dan,

It's just a "feel" situation that definitely calls on the Ref's experience with the players at hand. We touched on it at Ref school, but it really boils down to your gut reaction to a situation and making a judgement call to intervene or not.

If a player wants to blow off a little steam over his own misfortune at the table, then okay. But if he keeps going on and on and starts disturbing the matches around him, then there's an issue and that needs to be addressed. And you always want to first intervene with a firm, but respectful, request to curtail the behavior. I learned this from the "Roger and Cecil" show at Ref school. Of course, it helps that Roger is a former Marine and has that stare that looks through you to the back of your skull.

And you have to take into account the attitude of the opponent sitting in the chair. Did he call the Ref over to complain? Who's winning the match? Do these players have a history with each other or is it a clash of personalities?

What does RR say? We haven't heard from him in a long time on this board. I hope he's in good health and spirits.

Barbara

03-13-2003, 11:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> dan,

It's just a "feel" situation that definitely calls on the Ref's experience with the players at hand. We touched on it at Ref school, but it really boils down to your gut reaction to a situation and making a judgement call to intervene or not.

If a player wants to blow off a little steam over his own misfortune at the table, then okay. But if he keeps going on and on and starts disturbing the matches around him, then there's an issue and that needs to be addressed. And you always want to first intervene with a firm, but respectful, request to curtail the behavior. I learned this from the "Roger and Cecil" show at Ref school. Of course, it helps that Roger is a former Marine and has that stare that looks through you to the back of your skull.

And you have to take into account the attitude of the opponent sitting in the chair. Did he call the Ref over to complain? Who's winning the match? Do these players have a history with each other or is it a clash of personalities?

What does RR say? We haven't heard from him in a long time on this board. I hope he's in good health and spirits.

Barbara

<hr /></blockquote>

thanks for the insight. i do get that, in all but the worst cases, you try to do a warning before actually hitting 'em with the unsports. yes?

dan

Barbara
03-14-2003, 09:43 AM
[ QUOTE ]
in all but the worst cases, you try to do a warning before actually hitting 'em with the unsports. yes?
<hr /></blockquote>

Absolutely dan!

Barbara

03-15-2003, 08:27 PM
There is a simple solution to a jerk running off at the mouth &amp; busting up everyones game around him. When was the last time you saw one of these guys get thrown out the front door of the joint, do it just once, everyone else will get the message. Just don't put up with this, stand firm. Tennis should have drug Macinroe off of the court in a straight jacket. Fast Larry

03-16-2003, 12:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> There is a simple solution to a jerk running off at the mouth &amp; busting up everyones game around him. When was the last time you saw one of these guys get thrown out the front door of the joint, do it just once, everyone else will get the message. Just don't put up with this, stand firm. Tennis should have drug Macinroe off of the court in a straight jacket. Fast Larry <hr /></blockquote>

larry, all you do is throw 'em out the door for bein loud? round here we put a round behind their ear and set 'em out back by the dumpster. y'all are a bunch of woosies.

dan

Ludba
03-16-2003, 06:40 PM
I was debating in a similar thread several months ago about unprofessional behavior. The intentional foul scenario described above in no way resembles unsportsmanlike behavior, but with regard to someone acting the fool, I say that they are doing the game of pool a disservice. It was argued (I don't remember by whom) in that old thread that at the professional level, we should expect some whiny behavior. It's their personality that adds excitement to the game. The arguer also pointed to the hypocrisy of chastising players for unsportsmanlike conduct and concurrently griping about professional matches being boring. In this person's opinion, the players are characters in a table-side soap opera who should express their emotions for the crowd's entertainment, e.g. McEnroe's or Strickland's tantrums add rather than detract from the game because of the quantity of emotional expression, not the quality. It could be argued that the Super Brat brought a larger audience to tennis and that The Pearl does the same for pool. Opinions?