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View Full Version : Ray Martin's shot #56 "Frozen kiss shot #3"



Paul_Mon
03-11-2003, 02:30 PM
I had over 80% success with this shot as defined below. I used the 7 and 8 ball position from a 9 ball rack because there are divots to hold the balls in place on my table. Additionlly I have a center line drawn on my cloth from which to measure. What I ask of anyone trying this shot is that you rest your cue on the side rail when shooting. It almost felt like I was hitting up on the cue ball. Strike the object ball flush. Different cue balls had no significant effect. My balls were polished last Saturday and have only about 1 hour playing time on them. Every single time this shot worked you could hear that dreaded "thunk" when the object balls skid instead of roll.

START(
%FK6P1%GK6N8%PN7U8%QA7O6%RA6Q0%SF8R0%UL4Q7%VN2T9%W D0P5%XJ8P1
%YN9Z5%ZN7V7%[D0Q7%\J7P1%]D1V2%^M6U8%eB3_9
)END

-Position A is straight line or the natural line the ball should travel.

-Position B is where I could make the object ball strike the rail. About 2 balls from the center line.

-Position C is where the object ball came to rest. Indicating how hard to hit this shot.


Note that the cue ball is on the intersection of the 1st diamond of the short rail and the 2nd of the long rail. This shot works but has limitations due to how slowly it must be hit and how close you must be to the object ball.

Paul Mon

Fred Agnir
03-11-2003, 02:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Paul_Mon:</font><hr>
START(
%FK6P1%GK6N8%PN7U8%QA7O6%RA6Q0%SF8R0%UL4Q7%VN2T9%W D0P5%XJ8P1
%YN9Z5%ZN7V7%[D0Q7%\J7P1%]D1V2%^M6U8%eB3_9
)END<hr /></blockquote>What you show is significantly different than anything I've ever encountered, including the shots that I just shot at noon. It's also significantly different than anything ever discussed previously. Why do you think there would be such a difference between your shot in Greece, and my shot in Clinton?

Any chance you tried to setup the shot anywhere else other than the rack area?

Fred

SpiderMan
03-11-2003, 05:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Why do you think there would be such a difference between your shot in Greece, and my shot in Clinton?
Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe it didn't meet Bill's definition? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SpiderMan

Paul_Mon
03-11-2003, 05:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> What you show is significantly different than anything I've ever encountered, including the shots that I just shot at noon.
__________________________________________________ ___

Try it again Fred. See if you don't get the same results.
What I've described doing is pretty easy to duplicate. I'll repeat what astounded me. Every time this shot worked the balls "thunked" and skidded. Did that happen to you at all?


__________________________________________________ __________
It's also significantly different than anything ever discussed previously. Why do you think there would be such a difference between your shot in Greece, and my shot in Clinton?
__________________________________________________ __________
It's exactly what we talked about and described in Ray's book. Am I missing something here? ie. follow on the cue ball inducing draw effect on the object ball.

__________________________________________________ __________
Any chance you tried to setup the shot anywhere else other than the rack area?
__________________________________________________ _________

I'll give it a try using the head string as a reference point. But my racking area is not that worn. Just enough to repeatedly place the balls.

Paul Mon~~~~~ so far its only Ray and I

03-11-2003, 09:06 PM
Ray Martin is a friend of mine. He is a world champion, and a great teacher. If you are ever in Tampa St Pete area look him up.
I would recommend everyone to acquire this book, 99 shots, and take it to the pool hall &amp; learn &amp; master every shot in there. If you dont play straight, you might pass up some of those shots in the back, but remember, they also come up in 8 ball.

If you are a newer player, there may be 10 shots in the book you dont understand or cant make. Find a good local teaching pro, and have him teach them to you. there is a wealth of knowledge in this book, and many of these shots come up in real games.

What the book does is teach you to find that hidden shot you now over look, so you can go for it &amp; run out.

Shot 56, is a wonderful knowledge shot, to know if the shot is on, all you have to do is draw a line between the two dark balls and that's the path the first one takes.

Not all of the shots in this book came from Mr. Martin, meaning they are not his inventions. They are shots he picked up over the years, and many players like him just don't know the origins of some of them. Bob Byrne has been very helpful in training me in this area.

The most valuable tip in the book is the first shot, page 30, this shot came out of the l925 Willie Hoppe book, &amp; this is so important, Hoppe called this shot 101. I perform it 10 times in a row &amp; then stop, I have a bad back.

Think of this book also as an introduction to trick shots, because many of them actually are. Page 94, shot 47 was invented by Francious Minguax in l827.

Page 119, shot 65, this shot is just too cool. Perlinga of Italy tried this against Mike Massey in their finals trick shot match on ESPN for the worlds championship, Mike made the shot, &amp; won the event. This shot has came up in 8 ball matches for me dozens of times, and several times I was able to win &amp; get out from an impossible position. Even when the shot is not on, I am able to hit it with the right speed &amp; move my ball over to block a pocket. This shot was invented by Joe Hood in l908.

Page 120, the semi masse shot, for a shot to be called a masse, it must curve, this shot does not curve, it is technically a jacked up down draw, and the French term for this shot is Le Pique. I find that to be an amazing thing Ray has never hit a full masse. Having a Masse, is a extra tool like having a jump shot, the more tools, the more shots, the better you are.

Page 123, shot 69 was in my Tasa world trick shot championships I used to run. This is another stroke shot that comes up &amp; is a must to have.

Page132, shot 77, this was the first trick shot I made, the world champion Bennie Allen showed it to me in the late l940's in Kling &amp; Allens. George Middleditch shot it in his show.

This book has always been towards the top of my recommended reading I give my students in the Power Source Pool School. The Great Ray Martin is tops in my book, Best Wishes, Fast Larry Guninger www.fastlarrypool.com (http://www.fastlarrypool.com)

03-11-2003, 09:25 PM
Dear Paul Mon, sir, don't polish your object balls. I keep my cue ball highly polished, and that is all, I like my object balls semi dirty, which is the real world you find in pool halls. Dirty balls throw better than clean balls.

Every time you polish your balls, you are changing all of your cut clings &amp; throws, why confuse your self, if you dont have to. Every where I go, I carry my personal set of Centinneals. The main reason is this, I know how they throw &amp; that is very important. The last time I cleaned them Tricky Dick was VP. If a smudge gets on a ball, I'll just clean that place.

I wont let anyone hit my object ball with a cue tip &amp; put cue dust on it, that can be the kiss of death, I'll chase that ball down at once &amp; hand clean it lightly with a hanki, &amp; threaten to turn Wonder Dog loose for dinner on the offender. Clean balls bad, dirty balls good. If they get real dirty, then everything gets really weird then.

I wash my hands before I play. If I want to eat a hamburger &amp; fries, I stop &amp; eat &amp; cease playing. When I am done, I go wash my hands, then resume play. No body can eat &amp; play &amp; put their hands on my balls. I have a little joke I tell about that in my trick shot show. Other than chalk dust, fries &amp; grease on a ball is really the kiss of death.

Ask any top end Artistic pool performer and he will tell you this is true. Nobody knows more about how balls throw &amp; react than this group of people, our show, our lives are based on controlling these factors. Those who don't learn how to do it, end up frying burgers. Best Wishes, Fast Larry

Paul_Mon
03-12-2003, 06:03 AM
Larry,

I myself would prefer to use balls that are just cleaned and not polished. But every pool hall that I go to uses polished balls. So about once every two weeks I bring my set to the pool hall and get them polished. What good would it do me to practice at home with balls that don't react similar to the ones at the pool hall?


Paul Mon


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> Dear Paul Mon, sir, don't polish your object balls. I keep my cue ball highly polished, and that is all, I like my object balls semi dirty, which is the real world you find in pool halls. Dirty balls throw better than clean balls.

Every time you polish your balls, you are changing all of your cut clings &amp; throws, why confuse your self, if you dont have to. Every where I go, I carry my personal set of Centinneals. The main reason is this, I know how they throw &amp; that is very important. The last time I cleaned them Tricky Dick was VP. If a smudge gets on a ball, I'll just clean that place.

I wont let anyone hit my object ball with a cue tip &amp; put cue dust on it, that can be the kiss of death, I'll chase that ball down at once &amp; hand clean it lightly with a hanki, &amp; threaten to turn Wonder Dog loose for dinner on the offender. Clean balls bad, dirty balls good. If they get real dirty, then everything gets really weird then.

I wash my hands before I play. If I want to eat a hamburger &amp; fries, I stop &amp; eat &amp; cease playing. When I am done, I go wash my hands, then resume play. No body can eat &amp; play &amp; put their hands on my balls. I have a little joke I tell about that in my trick shot show. Other than chalk dust, fries &amp; grease on a ball is really the kiss of death.

Ask any top end Artistic pool performer and he will tell you this is true. Nobody knows more about how balls throw &amp; react than this group of people, our show, our lives are based on controlling these factors. Those who don't learn how to do it, end up frying burgers. Best Wishes, Fast Larry <hr /></blockquote>

Perk
03-12-2003, 07:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Larry:</font><hr> Page132, shot 77, this was the first trick shot I made, the world champion Bennie Allen showed it to me in the late l940's in Kling &amp; Allens. George Middleditch shot it in his show. <hr /></blockquote>

George Middleditch shoots in alot of area tourneys around here. As a character that he is, he often performs a bunch of "mini" exibitions. Most of these free exibitions are for young kids around, sometimes to the players though.

Larry, do you know George well? Or any stories regarding him?

Fred Agnir
03-12-2003, 07:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Paul_Mon:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred:</font><hr>
It's also significantly different than anything ever discussed previously. Why do you think there would be such a difference between your shot in Greece, and my shot in Clinton?<hr /></blockquote>
__________________________________________________ __________
It's exactly what we talked about and described in Ray's book. Am I missing something here? ie. follow on the cue ball inducing draw effect on the object ball.<hr /></blockquote>This isn't the first time this shot's been discussed on the internet, and it's been tested over and over again. So, even those who said this shot worked in the past backed off from their initial claim once they actually measured things.

So, I'm saying that what you've drawn on the Wei table is different than anything I've ever encountered from anyone that has actually taken the time to measure and test this particular shot. So, I'm asking, "what's different?". Why would it work so much for you, but not the countless of others who have done controlled measurements? Try the shot away from the divots.

Here's some of what's been discussed before:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=shepard-3105972309400001%40anchah.chm.anl.gov&amp;oe=UTF-8&amp;output=gplain

You know Ron to be a very meticulous tester with these types of shots. And, he's an "A" player.

Again, I'd be interested in what others have to say after testing. I see Fran Crimi's results agree with what I've done in the past and yesterday. Anyone else?

Fred

TomBrooklyn
03-12-2003, 10:02 AM
I like the way the balls look when they are very clean and shiny. I enjoy playing more when they are like this because they look cool.

Paul_Mon
03-12-2003, 11:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> So, I'm saying that what you've drawn on the Wei table is different than anything I've ever encountered from anyone that has actually taken the time to measure and test this particular shot. So, I'm asking, "what's different?". Why would it work so much for you, but not the countless of others who have done controlled measurements? Try the shot away from the divots.

Here's some of what's been discussed before:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=shepard-3105972309400001%40anchah.chm.anl.gov&amp;oe=UTF-8&amp;output=gplain

You know Ron to be a very meticulous tester with these types of shots. And, he's an "A" player.

Again, I'd be interested in what others have to say after testing. I see Fran Crimi's results agree with what I've done in the past and yesterday. Anyone else?

Fred
<hr /></blockquote>


Fred,
I'll try it again away from the divots. My table has a break box penciled in at the other end that will work just fine. Below is a snip of what Ron Shepard had to say. I didn't read in that particular thread where he did any testing.

Quote from Ron: However, if you hit the cue ball with topspin, then it is impossible to transfer "draw" to the 1-ball. Even if the 1-ball is hit at an angle so that the cue ball gets out of the way, there will be no observable "draw" transferred to the 1-ball.


I'll stand by my initial results. Did you try it again at home? On any of your tries did you encounter the skid effect as I did?

Give it another try. Keep your cue as level as possible and play the shoot with the cue ball about 10" away from the 1st ball. Let me know what happens.



Paul Mon

Fred Agnir
03-12-2003, 11:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Paul_Mon:</font><hr>
I'll stand by my initial results. Did you try it again at home? On any of your tries did you encounter the skid effect as I did? <hr /></blockquote>I tried it at home and at the bar. I used object balls as cueballs. I used cueballs as cueballs. I don't know what the skid effect looks or sounds like, since no shot "pulled back" from the tangent line.

[ QUOTE ]
Give it another try. Keep your cue as level as possible and play the shoot with the cue ball about 10" away from the 1st ball. Let me know what happens.<hr /></blockquote>I think I'm done trying. Until the next time someone brings it up and I have to check it again. Until then, it simply hasn't happened for me.

BTW, although I certainly tested it with a level cue, unlevel cue, cue up, cue down, 10", 24", 4', etc., can you give a reason as to why distance and elevation would matter? Are you saying that in a game situation, this only works at 10"? I certainly haven't heard that one before.


Fred

Paul_Mon
03-12-2003, 01:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
I think I'm done trying. Until the next time someone brings it up and I have to check it again. Until then, it simply hasn't happened for me.

BTW, although I certainly tested it with a level cue, unlevel cue, cue up, cue down, 10", 24", 4', etc., can you give a reason as to why distance and elevation would matter? Are you saying that in a game situation, this only works at 10"? I certainly haven't heard that one before.


Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred,

What I'm saying is that it only worked with a level cue, extreme top and when close (read less than 12") to the object ball. You've asked if I can give a reason why. I can only guess why. The extreme top will not transfer once the cue ball has stopped spinning or has "rolled out". Empirically it works for me. Fred, I only had success when the above criteria was met. These situations will present themselves in 14.1 and one pocket. My guess would be that it will come up once in a game of 14.1 when going to 100 and maybe once every 3 sets of one pocket. If I can make this shot 3 out of 4 times and the score justifies trying it I'm going to shoot it. You won't ever shoot it.

Paul Mon

03-12-2003, 02:30 PM
Dear Mr. Perk, you asked the question, do I know George Middleditch, yes sir I do, I am proud to say he won my first TASA Northamerican trick shot championship at the Allen Hopkins Expo in l997, this event was sanctioned by the BCA. I came in 2nd to him. George is fantastic, one of the greatest entertainers &amp; trick shot artistic showmen of all time. Anything Mike Massey could do, George could do. Easily ranks in the top 5 greatest big time strokers of the ball of the last century. I could write pages on this guy, I am his biggest fan, dont miss him, if he is any where near you. Ask him if he knows how to shoot a spit ball. Ask him to tell you the story of where the miller lite trick shot came from. George, yo da man. Best Wishes, Fast Larry Guninger

Paul_Mon
03-12-2003, 03:37 PM
I just went to the other end of the table set up the hole reinforcements and never once made the object ball veer because of cue ball follow. I tried over 15 times and no success. So I go back to the other end where I shot it the day before and BINGO the balls go "clunk" and the object ball takes the draw. Try it again, it works again.

Here's why. The distance I was shooting this shot at one end of the table was by coincidence almost 2 1/2 revolutions of the cue ball. From shooting this shot so many times yesterday I had a chalk track on the cloth. I was depositing chalk at the contact point. I went back to the unsuccessful end of the table and chalked the object ball. It clunked and took the draw. When you chalk up the contact points this shot becomes extremely repeatable.

Larry deserves some credit for his reply that got me thinking about chalk on the object balls. Fred, I'll never doubt you again.

Paul Mon

TonyM
03-14-2003, 12:52 AM
I'll try it again tomorrow Fred but basically I would agree with you.

I've never actually seen any DRAW transferred to an object ball, and I am highly skeptical that it could even be done (without chalked contact points or similar).

I can see that you could get the object ball to slide and not roll forward.

But I've never seen any significant back up.

Tony