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View Full Version : Whether to Support the Women's Event at VF ?



Chris in NC
03-12-2003, 08:28 AM
We are eagerly anticipating our annual trip from NC to Valley Forge next week - 6 of us are piling into my vehicle and heading up there. Unfortunately, I'm not as excited as in past years - mainly due to the situation regarding the women's pro event. Many VF regulars who come to watch the ladies will be extremely disappointed this year - as the WPBA tour and it's loyal followers (at least for this year) has lost probably one of it's very best tournaments and venues.

Apparently the WPBA upped their tournament host fee this year, and the Hopkins were not willing to pay the price. Instead, they have concocted their own little 8 player round robin event. Problem is most of the WPBA top drawing cards - Allison, Jeanette, Vivian, Jennifer, Ewa, Loree Jon (just to name a few) will not be in attendance - a decision which I applaude them all for!

Personally, I'm extremely dissappointed that the WPBA women didn't stick together on this one and boycott this event altogether - which may have ultimately forced Dawn and Alan to ante up the going rate to have the tourney. Sad truth is do the women pros really have their act any more together than the men? Apparently not.

This puts me in a sticky situation as the only player I really want to see and support for this event is my good friend Gerda. However, I feel that by paying the $20 ticket price per session (the same price as for the 64 player men's event in which most of the great male pro players WILL be there) is supporting an event that I strongly feel I shouldn't be supporting.

Just curious on other CCB'ers views - particularly those that have attended VF regularly in the past largely because of the women's event?

Don't get me wrong - The Super Billiards Expo is an awesome show that is worth attending even without the women's or men's pro events to watch. However, for myself the WPBA event (which I've attended since 1997) was the highlight of VF. I'm very dissappointed that Dawn and Alan can't see how important having a WPBA tour stop at VF is to many of us. I hope those of you that feel the same way will post here as well as telling Alan and/or Dawn personally of your feelings if you see them at VF - which I plan to do. - Chris in NC

Deeman
03-12-2003, 08:40 AM
I had planned to watch the women's event but if the top players are not there, why pay the money? What about the men's side? Who is or usually shows up for that. I don't see any names listed on the Website. I still plan to go as I want to see the expo for the first time after attending many BCA shows. Should I plan on seeing the men or will they just be second tier players? Not that I'm above watching any good matches, It's just that I want to know what I am paying my $20 per session for.

Is the divorce of Hopkins' and WPBA a big money factor or just a few thousand? Inquiring minds want to know!

Steve Lipsky
03-12-2003, 08:47 AM
Hi Chris. Just out of curiosity, do you know what the new WPBA fees are? Do you know what they were? If so, is it a large difference?

Valley Forge is not much more than a business move on the part of the Hopkins'. With the pro men coming, he had less of a need to shell out big money to draw the WPBA.

Since I don't know any of the monetary details involved, I can't really take a side.

- Steve

Chris in NC
03-12-2003, 09:42 AM
Steve, AHP (Alan Hopkins Productions) is forking out around $15,000 or $16,000 for their "invitational" 8 player women's event - in which all players are guaranteed $1,000, but 1st, 2nd and 3rd place only receive $5,000, $3,000 and $2,000 respectively. If you look at the lineup of players participating, only Gerda and Helena are among the top 6-8 players on the tour. I believe they would have had to pay around $10,000 more ($25,000) to have a WPBA tour stop at Valley Forge that would have included ALL the top WPBA players. That would still have been a deal compared to what the Casino venues pay the WPBA to host a tour stop.

I'm sure there are numerous costs to produce this event. However, I would have thought the extra $10,000 to continue hosting this great WPBA tour stop is peanuts compared to their overall bottom line for the entire expo. My guess is the gate receipts alone for this year's women's event will drop by at least that amount - not to mention the damage it will have done to the reputation of the entire Expo to longtime VF supporters - who may think twice about attending the event at all in future years if the WPBA event does not return.

This year should provide a valuable lesson for Alan - as he'll learn that most of the women's pro pool supporters, particularly those of us that attend VF (as opposed to the Casino spectators) are more knowledgeable and more discriminating than he apparently gives us credit for - if he thinks we're going to support such a shell of an event.

Fran Crimi
03-12-2003, 09:48 AM
I thought about this too, Chris, and my initial reaction was pretty much as yours. Why is the WPBA allowing this mini-event to occur? But as I thought it through I saw that what the WPBA is doing in allowing the mini tournament makes perfect sense.

I think there are two factors to consider.

First, Alan and Dawn have been good friends of the WPBA for many years. As you know Dawn was a former WPBA President and worked very hard during her term. They were there for us for many years and during a time when others weren't. The WPBA was able to fill all it's TV events for this year so it's not as if they are causing hardship for our org. by not hosting the event. Also, other site sponsors have for one reason or another decided not to sponsor a tour stop in a particular year, and have come back to host one in a subsequent year. It doesn't make sense to burn bridges with our friends and cause hard feelings and bad blood.

Second, the WPBA must always consider the needs of it's players and we have a sanctioning criteria in place to protect players rights. The proposed mini event does meet WPBA sanctioning criteria and as long as it is not competitive with the tour, which it isn't, there's no reason to prevent players from an opportunity to earn some extra money.

Fran

Chris in NC
03-12-2003, 09:50 AM
Sorry, but I forgot to mention that Karen Corr will be another one of the top players (currently #2) playing in Valley Forge.

Popcorn
03-12-2003, 10:02 AM
If Allen doesn't want to pay the increase it is up to him. If the ladies don't want to play it is up to them. If you don't want to go it is up to you. I sense a feeling that you think Allen is don't something wrong or owes someone something. It is his show and he can do what he wants. I am sure he will study the feed back and decide what he wants to do next year, for now that is his choice. If you don't want to pay the $20. don't go in. Given a choice, I would say more would rather see the men play then the women anyway.

Fran Crimi
03-12-2003, 10:11 AM
I don't think Dawn would be too happy to hear you talk about this as Alan's event. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Nostroke
03-12-2003, 10:59 AM
You say that the WPBA has upped the fee, yet you still blame Allen and Dawn for not having them.

I think its pretty obvious that the WPBA needs the Expo more than the Expo needs the Wpba yet they chose to go for the money and play in Tunica Misssissippi!! I wonder how many new fans they picked up in Tunica? I wasn't in Miss but i have yet to see a well attended event in a casino. Take away the die-hards and the friends of the players and it seems to me the gate is barely double digits. I hope they know what they're doing.

eg8r
03-12-2003, 11:24 AM
Hello Chris,

Good to see you posting again.

I say, go to the event you feel you will get the most for you money. I understand your friendship with Gerda, so I am sure she will understand if you go watch the men.

eg8r

Fran Crimi
03-12-2003, 11:30 AM
Unfortunately you don't know the whole story and I'm not at liberty to say. All I can tell you is that things aren't always the way they appear. I realize that's a problem for the general public but certain things just can't be stated publically.

All I can say is I hope you won't look down on the WPBA too much and that you understand that there are always pieces to the puzzle that can't and shouldn't be revealed.

I realize it's not much, but unfortunately, that's the best I can offer you.

Fran

bluewolf
03-12-2003, 12:12 PM
I guess I am just not interested in the politics. I am going for three reasons.

1) to see good pool
2)to see and buy kool pool stuff
3) to see friends

If I want to see the women play I will pay for it, I if don't I want. I am not in the wbpa so whatever is going on with them and the hopkins event I consider to be none of my business.

If I can get something out of watching but decide to get ticked based on incomplete facts and boycott, then i would be cutting off my nose to spite my face.

just my .02

Laura

SPetty
03-12-2003, 12:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I don't think Dawn would be too happy to hear you talk about this as Alan's event. <hr /></blockquote>Well, I guess most people think of it as Allen's event because it's brought to you by Allen Hopkins Productions. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
03-12-2003, 12:30 PM
It's a shame AF and JL won't be there but I would still pay $20 a day to watch the ones that will be there.

Or watch the men play.

Or visit the booths.

It's all good.

Chris in NC
03-12-2003, 12:57 PM
Wally, only 4 of the top 10 ranked WPBA players are playing in VF - and if I'm not mistaken 5 of those 8 playing has never won a WPBA Classic tour event!

Personally, in addition to seeing the top players many of us love to attend the WPBA tourneys to see how the young talents perform - such as Tiffany, Jeannie Seaver, Michelle Rakin, Megan Minerich, Sarah Rousey, etc., etc.

Yes, it's great that those 8 invited players do have a tourney to play in to help make a living that weekend, but indeed is very sad for the other 56 players that are being robbed of their opportunity at playing in front of perhaps the best, most loyal and most knowledgeable pool spectators on the tour at VF.

03-12-2003, 12:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris in NC:</font><hr> Sorry, but I forgot to mention that Karen Corr will be another one of the top players (currently #2) playing in Valley Forge.
<hr /></blockquote>

i think your gordion cunundrum is easily solved. go, watch, but don't enjoy.

dan

Fran Crimi
03-12-2003, 03:18 PM
Yep, maybe for the unknowing, but the people who know Dawn and Alan know the score.

Fran

woody
03-12-2003, 07:12 PM
I could care less what happens on the pro side. The round robin format is going to be a change of pace and probably pretty exciting. I will have my VIP tickets for both night sessions. Let me ask another question. As a player in the amateur event I would like to know why the number of players has gone from about 640 players 4 years ago to over 1000 last year and the 1st place prize money is still $5000. What is wrong with this picture? I will admit I probably don't know the whole story, but don't you think something would change and it would be noticable to the players to show Allen and Dawn's appreciation for our support.

Popcorn
03-12-2003, 08:04 PM
I think what I meant was, no matter what you do, someone will be unhappy. Allen or Dawn makes the call and that is their decision. I just don't like the anger I read in the other posts. Why is Chris so angry? Something is not to his pleasing and it sounds like he wishes horrible things on Allen now. Like you, I have had business dealings with the public, and you are always the bad guy to somebody. That show Allen puts on is no accident and although there is always tweaking that can be done, he is doing it pretty darn good. I don't see anybody else out there taking the risk and heat to put on something like it. If they try, it is because Allen has taken the risks to show it could be done. How in the world can he be criticized.

Tom_In_Cincy
03-12-2003, 08:08 PM
Watching the WPBA in action is a great experience. I have seen them play about a dozen times and have enjoyed it always.

VF not having the women's event is going to be a negative. Even with the 8 women players, its not the same. I hope things workout in the future with Alan and the WPBA.. maybe next year..


I have never been to the VF event, and don't plan to this year..but maybe next year if for no other reason, just for the CCB party.

Until then.. its the US OPEN in Sept, Glass City open in Dec. and then the greatest show on earth.. the Derby City Classic.

VF will survive with or without the WPBA. As long as the great amature events and the men show up.. along with the largest public vendor show.

Harold Acosta
03-12-2003, 08:23 PM
Chris in NC:

Nice seeing you post again....

On the topic...

I would support Valley Forge regardless of the current situation with the WPBA. If I'm not mistaken, the VF Expo is mostly for the amateurs; the future WPBA and men tour players!. We should support what Allan and Dawn are doing for the sport!

The perks were/are the Pro tournaments, and that is just fine; however, I believe that the mini tournament would be just as great to see, particularly for those who have never attended...and if there is some action like last year, it would still be a great event for anyone in attendance.

Chris, make the trip and support Allan and Dawn. I'm certain you will not regret it.

Just my 2 centavos.

Harold

<font color="blue">Billiards: A passionate sport for the mind and soul!</font color>
http://www.thebilliardstour.com/images/starscrash.gif

#### leonard
03-13-2003, 07:45 AM
Woody I think $5000 for an amateur event is not to be sneezed at. Rasing the prize money would change it to a Pro tournament and legally you would be hard pressed to keep pros out of the tournament. A restaining order would stop the tournament cold in its tracks and the winner would be decided months down the road.

Another reason probably is more in line with reality, more players, more tables, more employees, more setup costs, more headaches.####

Ralph S.
03-13-2003, 08:05 AM
Hey Tom. I kinda agree about VF. I also agree about the DCC being the greatest show on earth in terms of pocket billiards. I wanna go to the U.S. Open. Maybe we can coordinate for that event. As far as the women at VF goes, they are argueably the most watched and definitely are the most visible to people outside the hardcore pool world. They will be missed. Not only for their abiliites to play but also the kind of revenue they would most likely draw at an event of that size.

Chris in NC
03-13-2003, 08:15 AM
Popcorn, I am not pleased with the situation as I stated, but for you to jump to the conclusion that I wish bad things on Alan is ridiculous. I'm just expressing my feelings that this situation (at least for this year) is detrimental not only to the WPBA's players, but also to the numerous fans who have attended and supported this event and this venue for many years.

I've been to the expo for 6 consecutive years and like I said, 6 of us from our room are traveling 1200 miles round trip to attend this great event and probably spending $4,000+ between us. Does that sound like someone who doesn't love and support this expo? I think that gives me the right even moreso to express my opinions on this issue. By the way, are you attending the expo?

Lastly, for anyone who is not familiar with round robin events, no IMO they are not that exciting unless there is a tie among the top 2 players - and they happen to be playing in the final match. Although Gerda defeated Karen in Tunica last week, I'm guessing there's a good chance Karen could distance herself from the rest of the field in this format - in which the final round matches would be meaningless. Also, the chance of corruption and match fixing in the late rounds of a round robin event with considerable payouts is always a possibility. Just read the January issue of Inside Pool regarding the USPPA tourney.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-13-2003, 08:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris in NC:</font><hr> Popcorn, I am not pleased with the situation as I stated, but for you to jump to the conclusion that I wish bad things on Alan is ridiculous.....*snip* <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris in NC:</font><hr>
*snip*

...This year should provide a valuable lesson for Alan - as he'll learn that most of the women's pro pool supporters, particularly those of us that attend VF (as opposed to the Casino spectators) are more knowledgeable and more discriminating than he apparently gives us credit for - if he thinks we're going to support such a shell of an event. <hr /></blockquote>

This could be interpreted as advocating a boycott.

Chris, I agree that it is a shame thy're not having a WPBA event. It's a shame KC will probably roll over the field and the last rounds of the event will be meaningless and open to skullduggery.

All Dawn and Allen can do is assess the numbers after the event and make a decision for next year. It's their event, it's their money and their risk. I wouldn't expect them to take a loss for the sake of the WPBA. Maybe if the WPBA didn't already have a full schedule they may have decided differently.

Wally~~big WPBA fan (like Chris) except he's buddies with AF and I'm jealous /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

jjinfla
03-13-2003, 08:29 AM
Chris, Now $10,000 might not seem like much to you but when you consider it is on top of $15,000 then one must stop and evaluate things. It sounds like a purely business decision on the part of Allen productions. And I think his round robin format will really be well received by the fans. I think it is about time someone did that. Here you have 8 of the top players and you get to see them play each other. Every match would then be worth the price of admission. When the top players play someone who isn't really at their level how many people really care to watch? And calling for a boycot is not very rational. The fans will attend the venue that they like. Period. And you surely don't want the WPBA to boycot the event. Do you remember what happened when CW and the UPA did that? Absolutely nothing good would come of the WPBA prohibiting their members from taking part. It would be a PR disaster. Hopefully, in the future scheduling conflicts will be resolved and the two events can co-exist. Jake~~~wishes we had events like this down here in Florida. Unfortunately, just not enough fans here to support it.

Rich R.
03-13-2003, 09:13 AM
If you are unhappy with the situation, as I am, I suggest you let Allen Hopkins Productions know how you feel. That is what I did, quite some time ago.
Letting the WPBA know too, is not a bad idea, but I have not yet done that. I may soon.

The response I received indicated that the WPBA almost doubled their hosting fee and it was just too expensive to have them.

I do not know the facts about running an expo of this size, other than it must be a nightmare. I certainly am not priveleged to the total income and the total expenses. I'm sure they are stagering amounts.

However, I think BOTH sides should have negotiated some sort of settlement.

Allen and Dawn should expect to pay a little more each year to get the WPBA for a tournament. A reasonable increase is normal business practice. Was the WPBA increase too much? I do not have the facts to make such a judgement.

On the other hand, I believe the WPBA should show a little loyalty to those who have sponsored tournaments, year after year, and supported them. Maybe a little discount for multi-year tournament sponsors is in order.

My wife and I thought about not attending, for a while. We enjoy watching the WPBA players and the rest of the expo. In the end, we decided to go again this year. Hopefully by next year, both sides will come to their senses and make a deal for a complete WPBA tournament. Then we will not have to make another hard decision.

Steve Lipsky
03-13-2003, 09:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris in NC:</font><hr> Lastly, for anyone who is not familiar with round robin events, no IMO they are not that exciting unless there is a tie among the top 2 players - and they happen to be playing in the final match. <hr /></blockquote>

Chris, just for the record, round-robins are usually engineered to make the last round meaningful. In other words, when there are about two or three rounds left, the TD looks at all the possible permutations and starts altering the matchups. This makes it so - usually - the last match will decide the championship.

Keep in mind, it is still a round-robin, it's just that the exact matchups in the last three rounds or so might be different than what was originally planned. Nobody will play anybody twice, though.

However, you bring up a valid point about Karen. If she distances herself early, no amount of matchup manipulation will make the last few rounds exciting.

- Steve

Fran Crimi
03-13-2003, 09:42 AM
You know ####, that's an interesting point about the pros challenging the legality of it. I'm trying to remember if there was ever an amateur pool event that had first prize over $5000. Off-hand I can't remember any. Can you?

It would be interesting to see how the rest of the prize break down looks...if it's more than last year since there are more players.

Fran

Fran Crimi
03-13-2003, 09:46 AM
Yup. I agree with you wholeheartedly. It's a big risk doing one of these things. Hats off to Alan for his work.

Fran

Steve Lipsky
03-13-2003, 09:56 AM
Fran and ####,

The South Padre Island tournament (amateurs only) had a first prize of over $20,000 a few years back. Last year was something similar, I believe.

I really don't know how a pro could challenge the legality of it. Since most amateur tournaments define a pro by other standards than money earned, what would their argument be?

I think the only way they could maybe challenge it is if there is a player entered in the amateurs that plays pro speed. Sort of a "well, if he can play, why can't I?" defense. I can't see how that would do anything except maybe get the amateur barred - not let in the pro.

- Steve

Fran Crimi
03-13-2003, 10:13 AM
Well, I think there's a legal issue about a pro having a right to earn a living at their sport and if the money is big, it's possible that a court could rule that pros couldn't be banned from a particular event due to the prize money. It's kind of a tricky thing.

Fran

Eric.
03-13-2003, 10:55 AM
I'm guessing that because most amateur events are promoted by individuals or private organizations, as "owner" they may choose who they want to "do business" with. This is not a public service, therefore it's not everyones right to enjoy the privileges.

I do agree with ya about the Pro having the right to pursue any income opportunities available, I'm just thinking that unless the Pro's Civil Rights were infringed upon, he/she would not have a strong Suit.

Hope this doesn't sound nasty, just playin Devil's Advocate.

Eric &gt;not a lawyer, didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last nite

Fran Crimi
03-13-2003, 11:06 AM
Well, I remember a situation back in the 80's where the pros signed an exclusive contract with a promoter to play only in that promoter's events for 3 years. Then along came another promoter who organized a pretty big money event and naturally, the first promoter tried to hold the pros to the contract and refused to allow them to play.

Some of the pros did some homework and found out about their legal right to earn a living and it turns out that in spite of the contract, the first promoter couldn't stop the other pros from playing in the new promoter's event.

You would think that a contract would be legal and binding but apparently, there are some issues of law that are above contracts.

I guess it would also involve a particular judge's interpretation of the law. The first promoter said he could probably appeal and win the appeal but decided not to bother. So, who knows? Anything's possible.

Fran

Barbara
03-13-2003, 11:15 AM
woody,

The amount of players in the open event last year was about 800. Shayne may have said that the brackets are filled, but that doesn't mean there are 1024 players (64 players/16 brackets). At some point in time you have to stop taking entries and start making up the brackets and their badges and stuff.

I don't remember how far down the payoff goes, but this year there will be 140 tables. Diamond Smart tables. Maybe Greg from Diamond can give us an idea about how much those babies cost to rent per day. And unlike Vegas, you don't have to put $1 into them per rack. They're open. So I think that's another negotiated price for Diamond. And there's more staff, too. This year, there will be at least 5 of us on the top floor and probably 3 downstairs.

See you there.

Barbara /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Ken
03-13-2003, 11:16 AM
I doubt that any pro would put up the $10,000 or more it would take to get some attorney to walk into court. It is something that the UPA might do.

If they did, then instead of 1,000 entries there would be just the 32 "usual suspects" and first prize would be maybe $1,000 plus whatever Charlie would put up from the UPA coffers. I doubt that even Charlie would be that stupid. He has enough people angry at him without adding the 1,000 best amateurs in the country.

If the UPA ian't already washed up that would certainly finish it off.
KenCT

Fran Crimi
03-13-2003, 11:16 AM
I forgot to mention that I believe the first promoter was able to take civil action against the second promoter and basically ran him out of business. So, even though the players did get to play that event, it cost the second promoter any future in the game.

Moral of the story: stay away from players under contract. LOL!

Fran

bluewolf
03-13-2003, 11:38 AM
Well I have been real excited about going to my first big pool event since I started to play serious. This will be the first time that we boarded our dogs. I found them a nice 4x10 pen in a keenel so that all three can be together and not be lonely.

I heard there is lots of fun stuff there and neat stuff to buy and kool pool to watch. Sounds like a fun time to me.

Maybe it is cuz I am new but I dont understand this doom and gloom /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Laura

Eric.
03-13-2003, 12:27 PM
IMO contracts ensure one thing only-that lawyers will continue to get paid!

I hear ya on the player's signing exclusive contracts being unfair. I think the big difference is that in your example, it limited the Player from pursuing other income opportunities that another Pro may have access to, in mine, I referred to a situation where no Pro was eligible. I think/guess that Amateur events may get into hot water if they allowed some Pros and not others. That may open up the Discrimination thing.

Thanks for your views, interesting.


Eric &gt;Lawyers! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Fran Crimi
03-13-2003, 12:47 PM
Yeah, I know. Strange stuff, isn't it? 'Eligibility' is another fun word that will keep lawyers in the green for a long time to come.

Man, I picked the wrong job.

Fran

dg-in-centralpa
03-13-2003, 05:52 PM
Recently I got an e-mail from Peg Ledman on this subject. If anyone wants to see her comments send me a pm and I'll forward it to you. I'm still going to VF regardless. I'm supporting both male and female pros. They need our support no matter what the promoters do or think.

03-13-2003, 09:49 PM
amen to that last post...even though I may not necesarily agree with what AH is doing this year in regards to the WPBA, I do believe that the pro's still need as much support as they can get. If they don't have the support, then there won't even be an opportunity for pool/billiards to get it's share of the sports limelight that pervades this country.

Chris in NC
03-14-2003, 10:35 AM
It will be interesting to see how this RR women's event will be received. Perhaps I'm wrong and it will be well attended and successful. Regardless, it will still be a great weekend.

Rich, after you return from the Expo I hope that you as well as others here who may attend a session post your honest feedback as to the quality of this women's event from a spectator's viewpoint - particularly as opposed to having attended the WPBA tour events at VF in years past (which I assume you have).

My guess is that the expo will have a captive group of pool junkies who need their fix of watching the women pros play, and thus will pay out the money to attend at least one session. Whether they will be satisfied with the product and whether it was worth it at $20 a session is what I'm curious to find out.

IMO, this tour is just not strong or deep enough (skill wise) to lose the likes of Allison. Additionally for many of us males, not having Jeanette, Ewa, LJJ, Jennifer and so many of the other very attractive WPBA players in attendance will be a serious letdown. I'm just trying to be honest here, as like it or not that is one of the real assets and draws of the WPBA tour.

#### leonard
03-14-2003, 01:23 PM
Fran pool is the only sport that I know of where amateurs play for that kind of Money. Bowling has handicapped money events with pros allowed to play the only disadvantage is that 140 sandbagger shoots a scratch 650 and adds 120. That scenario keeps most pros from playing in those events. Golf has strict rules to remain an amateur the most you may win is maybe $300 in merchandise. Absolutely no cash.
I remember Joe Cantons problem with Irving Crane at the US Masters at the Olympic Lanes in Rochester. Joe beat Irving and the score sheets were signed when out from the audience came someone telling Irv that who ever was scoring neglected to take off a scratch on Joe. Of course we know that if you sign the score sheet that is the game. Irv got an injunction and held up the purse. After months of wrangling they split the purse and played a match for the title. Joe went to the match without hitting one poolball lost to Irving and the fellow he went with put his finger in Joes back and he left the poolroom with his hands in the air. Signifying that he was robbed.####

Popcorn
03-14-2003, 01:45 PM
Am I reading this right, now you complain the players playing are not pretty enough for you?

Wally_in_Cincy
03-14-2003, 02:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Am I reading this right, now you complain the players playing are not pretty enough for you? <hr /></blockquote>

I don't want to speak for Chris but I will anyway. Chris is good friends with Allison Fisher and she won't be playing and he's quite disappointed. That's the whole crux of the matter. I think /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

TomBrooklyn
03-14-2003, 05:05 PM
Letting pros into amateur events could become a tricky problem because what constitutes a pro is not so clearly defined expecially in the case of the men. I suppose with women anyone who is a member of the WPBA and with men any member of the UPA would be considered a pro, but what about some men who play on par or almost on par with many pros but are not members of the UPA? Are women who play on the regional tours recognized by WPBA pros or semi-pros, similar to minor league baseball players?

Then there are tons of players who have won some money here and there in all kinds of local and regional tournaments. Since they won money, are they now professional?

I don't think a pool professional is a very cleary defined designation.

Rich R.
03-14-2003, 06:24 PM
Chris, I have attended the WPBA tournament at VF, the last two years.
I will post my honest opinion of the women's event here. I will also be emailing Allen and Dawn, through their website, to let them know my opinion.

Ken
03-14-2003, 07:18 PM
The round robin format is being used only to determine the players in the Sunday afternoon finals. The top two from the round robin will play in the finals. Even if Karen runs away with first there could be a battle for second. Then the actual placing will be decided by a final match according to the Expo website.
KenCT

Troy
03-14-2003, 09:50 PM
As a result of the "fix" at the USPPA tournament in December at the Reno Sands, two players were banned for a minimum of one year and a third player was banned for six months. The ban means they can NOt enter any local USPPA tournaments, any USPPA regional tournaments or the May USPPA event at the Reno Sands. Baning these players puts all USPPA players on notice that any splits, savers or match fixes will not be tolerated and will be dealt with severely.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris in NC:</font><hr>.......Also, the chance of corruption and match fixing in the late rounds of a round robin event with considerable payouts is always a possibility. Just read the January issue of Inside Pool regarding the USPPA tourney. <hr /></blockquote>

Ken
03-15-2003, 05:57 AM
The USPPA event had a prize structure that heavily favored one player over the other and led to the "fix". It had nothing to do with "round robin" and it's too bad the facts have not been learned by those who post these little snippets of opinion.

The round robin at the Expo does not even determine the winner! It is only a qualifyer for the finals on Sunday.
But don't let the facts get in the way of all this bashing of the Expo and WPBA representatives. I would just like to hear what the supposed incentive is for this anticipated "fix".
KenCT

Troy
03-15-2003, 06:48 AM
My "little snippet" is based on full knowledge of what occurred at the USPPA tournament. Regardless of the structure, pool players must cease activities such as savers, splits and fixes if the sport is to grow. The USPPA has given notice that cheating will NOT be tolerated.

I am also fully aware of how a Round Robin functions.

Finally, I in NO WAY participated in any bashing of either the Expo or the WPBA representatives.

Troy...~~~ Is due an apology from KenCt but doesn't expect one.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ken:</font><hr> The USPPA event had a prize structure that heavily favored one player over the other and led to the "fix". It had nothing to do with "round robin" and it's too bad the facts have not been learned by those who post these little snippets of opinion.

The round robin at the Expo does not even determine the winner! It is only a qualifyer for the finals on Sunday.
But don't let the facts get in the way of all this bashing of the Expo and WPBA representatives. I would just like to hear what the supposed incentive is for this anticipated "fix".
KenCT <hr /></blockquote>

Ken
03-15-2003, 07:01 AM
You get the facts all screwed up and now you want an apology? Get real. Your libelous statements have no basis in reality. I ask again what does that USPPA "fix" have to do with round robin? Nothing and you should know better. There can be a split or saver in any tournament and your implication that the WPBA players will do it for some unknown reaason in this tournament is shamefull.

An apoloogy is in order: yours to the WPBA! I was just trying to give the facts without commenting on the idiocy of the argument but the facts speak for themselves. But don't let the facts get in the way of your monkey logic.
KenCT

Troy
03-15-2003, 07:35 AM
Speaking of Monkey Logic, idiocy and libelous statements Mr. High-N-Mighty, quote me where I said anything about the USPPA and Round Robin; quote me where I said anything negative about the WPBA. Speaking of "getting facts straight", try it, you might like it.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ken:</font><hr> You get the facts all screwed up and now you want an apology? Get real. Your libelous statements have no basis in reality. I ask again what does that USPPA "fix" have to do with round robin? Nothing and you should know better. There can be a split or saver in any tournament and your implication that the WPBA players will do it for some unknown reaason in this tournament is shamefull.

An apoloogy is in order: yours to the WPBA! I was just trying to give the facts without commenting on the idiocy of the argument but the facts speak for themselves. But don't let the facts get in the way of your monkey logic.
KenCT <hr /></blockquote>

jjinfla
03-15-2003, 07:46 AM
Splitting 1st and 2nd place prize money seems to be a common practice in a lot of tournaments. I suppose the pro tournaments should explicitly state that splitting will not be tolerated. But I am sure the players will still do it, they just will not be that open about it. And suspending the player probably hurts the tournament more than it hurts the player. Jake

Popcorn
03-15-2003, 08:34 AM
"wishes we had events like this down here in Florida. Unfortunately, just not enough fans here to support it."

I think pool is as big in Florida as any state, maybe bigger. I was told by one league operator there were 3000 players, playing in leagues on a weekly basis in my county alone. No shortage of interest here. To be honest, I think Florida would be a great place for winter tournaments. Wonder why prompters don't take advantage of the good weather down here. A nice February tournament in sunny south Florida, sounds good to me.

Deeman
03-15-2003, 10:17 AM
I see they have posted the men's participants at VF on the web site. Looks like a pretty good field. I loook forward to seeing some good matches.

Chris in NC
03-15-2003, 12:28 PM
Ken, I was just using the USPPA final match fix as an example of how a prize structure and format can (and will) encourage players to work out a saver (predetermined outcome and split of the purse) before the match starts - for the benefit of both players in that instance. Pool players are no fools, and as in that instance when both players will benefit from the scam it's naive to think that they won't work something out. I realize that event was not a round robin event, but it's no different.

To answer your question of how the integrity of a round robin event could be comprimised, let me give you the following scenario of what could happen at VF, even if the top 2 players (W/L records) at the completion of the round robin stage still must meet in the Sunday final. Let's say going in to the final round of the RR phase, two players are tied with each other for second place. One of those players is matched up against her good friend, who has a dismal match record and is already guaranteed no higher than the 5th through 8th place $1,000 minimum finish. What do you think the chances are that this weaker player will let her friend (who is still in contention to make it to the finals) win that match to give here a better chance of making it to the final match - as it can't affect the weaker player's payout at this point anyway?

This of course would not be fair to the other player tied for 2nd place - who would have to win their final match fair and square. This is just an example - but it does happen on all levels. Although in a perfect world a round robin format may appear to be the fairest way of determining the best player, it is rarely used because of the uncertainty as to whether some of the players (who are already out of contention) are giving 100% effort in the late rounds.

Popcorn
03-15-2003, 01:47 PM
What you say can be the case in any tournament played anywhere by any format. The assumption has to made that unless there is reason to believe otherwise, they will play on the up and up. You don't seem to have much respect for the lady pro players integrity, buy then you know them better then we do, is there something we should know? There will be, if I remember right about 28 fine matches to watch and I am sure the spectators will have a nice time.

PooPooPlatter
03-15-2003, 01:54 PM
There are many amateur events with a first prize of more than $5,000.
This Valley Forge event stinks.Let's say 1,000 players x $75 = $75,000.That is the purse without any added money,and they are paying less than 10% to the winner.You have to be kidding me.The first place money should be about 30% of the total purse,which would be about $22,500.
Also second place only gets $2,000,that's awful.
Why pro's aren't allowed is because it is an amateur only event.

bluewolf
03-16-2003, 06:16 AM
It really was not a big deal to me that the wpba was not competing at vf.

Something else totally different has come up and it has become very personal. We will be boycotting the event.

Laura

Ken
03-16-2003, 08:46 AM
Chris, Your mention of the USPPA event as an example of what the women might do is unjustified. The players in the USPPA finals had a chance to split an extra $6,000 if the right one won. There is no such situation in the women's event at VF.

The USPPA ia an amateur league even though some former pros play. The women are pros and have a stake in maintaining the integrity of the women's professional tour. They will be playing in front of many knowledgeable fans.

Your scenario suggested that Karen might be so far ahear that she might dump to help someone, perhaps a friend of hers, get maybe second place and a little more money. Perhaps Karen would split so she could get $500 less. If this is such a worry then Allen can simply match all the friends early so there should be no dumping. Of course, Karen might then dump late to help a weaker player get into the finals. These possibilities are outrageous and I think the players have more integrity than to do something like that. They are pros in the true sense of the word in that they play in front of paying audiences and get paid to do it.

This is not a bunch of amateurs playing just for whatever money they can get. Sure there's the possibility of some form of corruption but I wouldn't worry about that. The real shame is that they won't have a full women's tournament. This is one of the few that are within convenient traveling distance of the east coast and there's a huge interest in attending the tournament. What they've come up with just isn't that interesting.

If a venue like the Expo can't make money hosting a tournament then there's something seriously wrong. Allen gets an admission to get in the door and then to get to the playing room. If he can't make money then the events will be relegated to the casinos. They are the only ones with enough money to through away. Pool won't get anywhere without sponsorship and it won't get anywhere pricing itself out of markets.

KenCT

TomBrooklyn
03-16-2003, 05:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PooPooPlatter:</font><hr> There are many amateur events with a first prize of more than $5,000. Let's say 1,000 players x $75 = $75,000. That is the purse without any added money,and they are paying less than 10% to the winner. The first place money should be about 30% of the total purse,which would be about $22,500.<hr /></blockquote>The amateur tourny players get admission to the entire event included in their registration. I'm not sure what thats worth, but it would be proper to deduct it from the prize fund. Let's say a three day pass is worth $35. $75-$35=$40. The prize fund would then be 1000 players x $40 = $40,000. 30% payout of 40k = $12,000. I think your point is still makable, but more fair using this adjustment.
=TomBk

TomBrooklyn
03-16-2003, 06:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> Something else totally different has come up... We will be boycotting the event.<hr /></blockquote> For a boycott to have any significant impact, it needs to have a significant participation. Why don't you go to the expo and march and protest with signs, and enlist others to join in boycotting also.

Also, what if the reason your boycotting goes away, will you then return to attending the expo?