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03-13-2003, 04:22 AM
Would appreciate opinions regarding ball in hand when, for whatever reason, the incoming player misses the fact that he/she HAS ball in hand and proceeds to shoot at the CB in position. Does, or should, the outgoing player have any obligation to inform the incoming player of the situation. I think it's just good sportsmanship and would not hesitate to do so, no matter the possible outcome. If I found someone had not informed me, I would finish the game, go no further, and let the other player know why.

cheesemouse
03-13-2003, 05:14 AM
TESTBOOK,
like lots of things; it depends. In team play if you as the opponent informed him/her it would be OK and like you say goood sportsmanship but if one of his teamates informed him/her it would be coaching. If your from the 'pay attention dumb ass school' and this seems to be the case with most people that are gambling or playing in tournament matches you will not be run out of the place for not informing your opponent and he should not expect to be informed. There is no penalty for your not telling him/her they have BIH. I personally do not feel miffed when I miss a BIH and am not informed. I feel disappointed with myself not my opponent; it is not his/her job to pay attention for me. Personally I will tell them usless they fall in the perfect a$$hole category.

This a touchy subject and the aurgument always ends up in character test. Never say never comes to mind. It is not a cut and dried character thing if you do or don't, it is a situational thing and we all handle things differently at different times. Another way to look at is: if you were playing a person 9ball or 8ball and they continually lined up on the wrong ball or set of balls how many times are you expected to stop and tell them what they are doing will result in your recieving BIH. It is their responsiblity not yours...but in the end it is up to you and the situation. In casual pool I think it is a given to inform or be informed, in competition if you expect to be informed you will also be dissappointed more often than not.

You said: [ QUOTE ]
If I found someone had not informed me, I would finish the game, go no further, and let the other player know why. <hr /></blockquote> If this is your stand, by god, you will soon be playing by yourself and then when you miss a BIH you will know who to blame.....LOL LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
03-13-2003, 10:03 AM
I agree with cheese. It depends. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Ordinarily I would tell them, especially if it's someone I know would do the same for me. If it's an APA league match against some unknown player I might tell them, I might not. Really it depends on the importance of the match. In our APA league it's kinda understood the non-shooter needs to watch the table. If the guy is an a-hole I would not tell them. I hate to win like that but dammit there's some people that just don't pay attention and expect their opponent to watch the table for them.

Playing in the Cincinnati Straight Pool League I would always call the foul on myself. It's a bit more of a gentlemanly atmosphere.

JMO

Fran Crimi
03-13-2003, 10:03 AM
I agree with your sentiments. Even though they didn't violate any rules by not informing you that you have BIH, it looks suspicious. Makes you wonder what else they're capable of doing.

On the WPBA tour, I've noticed that the women, including myself, will make sure their opponent knows they have BIH, usually by giving the cb a little push with the side of our cue towards the incoming player, or picking up the cb and handing it to them.

There is the occasional new player who comes in from the amateur ranks who doesn't do that, but she usually learns pretty quickly realizing that she's the only one not doing it.

Suggestion: One thing you can do with a player who doesn't like letting you know you have BIH: Every time they foul, even though you see it, say really loudly, "You fouled, right? Is that ball in hand for me?" Make them acknowledge it. It'll get old really quick and they'll hand you the ball just to stop you from calling out. Haha! I did it and it works really well.

Fran

Wally_in_Cincy
03-13-2003, 10:11 AM
If I played at your level I would call all fouls on myself. Besides there is always someone watching /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

At the local league level it's just a different atmosphere. Sometimes the other team/player is obnoxious or drunk or not interested. I swear some nights, after calling 2 or 3 fouls on myself (which they did not see due to the above reasons) I quit calling them on myself. If they don't care enough to watch the match, heck with 'em.

I know this is a sore point with some and some will disagree, but you had to be there I guess /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Fran Crimi
03-13-2003, 10:22 AM
Hey Wally, you didn't do anything illegal, so until the rules change, you have no obligatin to say anything. I know it's hard to not do it back to your opponent when they do it to you. They don't give a rat's ass about you so why should you extend them any courtesy.

But you don't always have to fight fire with fire. You can put it out with water. Like constantly asking them if they fouled, since they aren't going to let you know.

Fran

Tom_In_Cincy
03-13-2003, 10:38 AM
If I foul, I pick up the cue ball and hand it to them.

If they foul, I do what Fran suggests. I say foul and if they argue (in a un-refed game) I bring it to the TD's attention. Which usually ends in the call going to the shooter, BUT, if the shooter is blatantly subhuman ethically, I will call for a 3rd party to call all shots from that point on. A lesson subhuman mentalliteis cannot understand. It just sharks the hell out of them.

BTW, I've only done this two times in the last 15 years.

Popcorn
03-13-2003, 01:15 PM
Honesty can't be a matter of degree, where do you draw the line. Can I move a ball with my hand as long as the other player never knows I did it? If I kick at a ball and miss the hit giving ball in hand. If the other player does not see it, is it still ball in hand. Am I never allowed to go to the bathroom for fear what my opponent may do? Even gambling for big money there are rules of conduct. You don't need a referee to play right. I don't want to play with someone I can't take my eyes off of or they will cheat. Cheating is cheating, not just if you may get caught.

ChrisW
03-13-2003, 01:45 PM
Conduct of play should be "watch the table while your opponent shoots". If you go to the bathroom either ask them to stop or have someone watch.
Nine times out of ten I would tell my opponent of a foul If they can't bother to pay attention then too bad.

Chris

Jay M
03-13-2003, 01:47 PM
Maybe I'm a bit spoiled, but down here, it's played as a gentleman's game. It doesn't matter whether it's a tournament, gambling or just for fun. Many are the times when I've wandered off to use the restroom and come back to be immediately told that I have BIH (or that it's my rack....lol).

I've also never actually seen anyone post up down here. Even the road players that come in seem to just follow the way things are going on. I have only had one road player even hint towards posting up or paying after every set. To my knowledge there is only one guy in this area that gambles without the money and everyone knows who he is so he has a very hard time finding a game. I should mention that I've only been stuck for the cash once in 15 years of playing down here.

When playing, on a BIH foul, everyone that I know and/or play against picks the cue up and hands it to their opponent. It's not a rule, it's a courtesy.

I'm sure that there are some people around that aren't like this, I'm just glad that they don't shoot in the same places that I do.

Jay M

Popcorn
03-13-2003, 04:04 PM
In other words, cheating is fine as long as you can rationalize it. I understand, it becomes my fault for trusting you. Thats real good, is really too much to expect the other player to play honestly? I saw a guy in one of Gradys one pocket tournaments, Scratch and spot one of the other players balls. Later, he denied it when the score did not seem right and he got away with it. It was no accident. I don't like this kind of stuff, and don't mind saying it. The guy by the way is a well known player, former US open champion.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-13-2003, 04:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jay M:</font><hr> Maybe I'm a bit spoiled, but down here, it's played as a gentleman's game. It doesn't matter whether it's a tournament, gambling or just for fun. Many are the times when I've wandered off to use the restroom and come back to be immediately told that I have BIH (or that it's my rack....lol)....*snip* <hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Honesty can't be a matter of degree, where do you draw the line....*SNIP*<hr /></blockquote>

I wish it were that simple in the tavern league.

Like I said before if it's someone who is respectful of pool etiquette, even if I don't know them personally, I will always call my fouls, knowing that they would return the gesture.

But if the player is someone who is goofing around and not watching I'll call the first, maybe the second foul on myself. But I'll be darned if I'm going continue to put myself at a disadvantage knowing that this guy would never call a foul on himself. It's just the dynamics of a bar league.

Playing at the pool hall is totally different. I believe I can say honestly that I have never committed a foul there and not called it on myself. It's a totally different class of player.

wolfsburg2
03-14-2003, 11:28 AM
i call it on myself every time no matter what. two wrongs don't make a right imo. as for the other guy, i watch pretty closely and anytime it is remotely close call, i will say"GOOD HIT? BIH THEN?"

snipershot
03-15-2003, 11:24 AM
TEXTBOOK I would have to agree with you 100% here, I have had to inform my opponent in the past that he/she had BIH, I never cheat to win, I don't see how anyone could feel good about it.

Ludba
03-15-2003, 12:19 PM
I just tell them. There is no written rule that you as the opponent have to point out ball in hand, but in an unrefed game by implication I feel responsible for enforcing the rules of the game both on my opponent and myself. If I can hold myself up to the highest standards of the game, then I know I've won each game legitimately. But the big picture is this: I play in tournaments and leagues to improve, so that I can become the best poolplayer there is. If I don't call fouls on myself, I feel I've cheated myself by giving myself an unfair advantage. My focus is still on winning each game, but not by setting the bar lower for myself, rather by setting it higher. My rule of thumb is that if there is some question as to rules or protocol, I prefer to rule against myself. I may lose in the short-term, but the long-term benefits are superior. Besides, I've won games where I gave my opponent BIH.

I have however failed to call a foul on myself once. The cueball and another ball were nearly frozen and I double hit. In retrospect, I should have called the foul. It was really the turning point for me to commit to the philosophy I've listed above.

Recently, I was playing an APA league match. I made a fatal scratch in the final game. He took BIH and was about to shoot his last ball then an easy shot on the 8. I wasn't even paying attention when he touched the cueball on his prestroke. However, my teammates were watching. They called it after he pocketed the ball. After a little controversy, I took BIH, since I was confident in what two of my teammates told me. However, after I pocketed the eight, we realized that we were supposed to spot his illegally pocketed ball. Anyway, my opponent felt cheated, since he didn't think he touched the ball, though he didn't actually contest it. I felt bad about winning under such suspicious circumstances, so we agreed to rerack and shoot the last game over again. I won and he felt that he had at least been given a fair shake.

Chris in NC
03-15-2003, 11:28 PM
Fran, I own an Accu-Stats match from a WPBA event a few years ago (which I believe yourself and Billy Incardona commentated) in which a player failed to inform their opponent of a foul (failing to drive a ball to a rail after contact). The incoming player (who normally would never miss something like this) came to the table and played their shot - unaware that their opponent had fouled and they had BIH. I guess there's a chance that both players missed it, but I would think that highly unlikely. I can't recall if this was a late round TV match in which the TD (Steve) presided over the match. If so, he missed it as well! Billy sure didn't miss it and commented on it at the time.