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View Full Version : Bar table CB vs. red dot CB - Draw Q.



Wally_in_Cincy
03-18-2003, 01:38 PM
When drawing the CB I've been trying to cue as low as possible with less stroke speed to improve ball-pocketing success.

This works fine with a red circle cue ball but a similar strike on the larger bar table CB has been resulting in several embarassing miscues.

Any theories? Is it the larger diameter or perhaps the heavier weight. It might be just me but I really don't think so. I played 2 hours yesterday with the red circle and no miscues. Last night with the bar CB, 1/2 hour practice with 3 miscues.

TIA

Rod
03-18-2003, 02:05 PM
Wally,
My theory is your lacking confidence drawing the heavier ball. Then a little twitch, being a little tense, or rushed stroke causes the miscue. When you say larger, is it really larger or is it the valley ball that might look larger but really is the same size. The valley ball is a little heavier but shouldn't be a problem to draw. You can check the diameter using two o/balls and the c/b inbetween with the flat edge of a rack or a straight cue shaft. Plastic racks don't work well for this. Mind over matter but the "larger" ball will be harder to draw. In which case follow position is best when possible.

Rod

Brent
03-18-2003, 05:44 PM
Small offtopic question.. WTF bars do u play in all the time ??? How is the bar cue-ball heavier ??? Are u sayn that all ur APA (dont know how u call them) league games are on coin-ops ? or like what kind of balls have u got in bars ? In Estnoia where I live everyone uses aramith balls. Coin-ops are almost ancient history and if im not mistaken then the cheaper aramith cueballs are also 2 1/4 or something like that (same weight as the other balls).
Ok long story short: what kind of tables and balls do u play with ?

Rod
03-18-2003, 08:30 PM
Brent,
In Estonia your just down the road from Belgium. lol Quite a bit but much closer than here so i imagine there are plenty of aramith balls there. The bar boxes can have more than one c/b size and weight. On some tables it takes a heavier or magnetic ball so the c/b will return. There are thousands of bar tables here. An many leagues that play on them.

Rod

Brent
03-19-2003, 07:28 AM
Hmm. I get shivers down my spine when I think about coin-ops. I always thaught that in estonia there are no real good players nor good places to play in but I might be wrong a bit. In my local poolhall all 10 tables are 9 footers (Brunswick Centurions). Im a spoiled brat /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
03-19-2003, 08:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Wally,
My theory is your lacking confidence drawing the heavier ball. Then a little twitch, being a little tense, or rushed stroke causes the miscue. When you say larger, is it really larger or is it the valley ball that might look larger but really is the same size.

<font color="blue">Well I measured some balls last night with a caliper. The object balls were around 2.212". The CB was 2.241". Difference of .030" or about 1/32". Shouldn't be enough to matter. Curiously after discovering this I had no miscue problems at all /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif. The mind is a terrible thing to lose. LOL </font color>

The valley ball is a little heavier but shouldn't be a problem to draw.

<font color="blue">Most of them aren't too bad but I have seen a couple that were dam near impossible to draw more than 8 or 12 inches...for me anyway. Mike Massey I ain't. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

Wally_in_Cincy
03-19-2003, 09:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Brent:</font><hr> Small offtopic question.. WTF bars do u play in all the time ???

<font color="blue">Small neighborhood taverns and roadhouses. </font color>

How is the bar cue-ball heavier ???
Are u sayn that all ur APA (dont know how u call them) league games are on coin-ops ?

<font color="blue">Yep. Every one of them. </font color>

or like what kind of balls have u got in bars ?

<font color="blue">Probably the cheapest balls Valley can buy /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif. </font color>

In Estnoia where I live everyone uses aramith balls. Coin-ops are almost ancient history

<font color="blue">That's curious. You mean they don't have them in taverns at all? </font color>

and if im not mistaken then the cheaper aramith cueballs are also 2 1/4 or something like that (same weight as the other balls).

<font color="blue">I wish we had aramith. It would certainly make the game more fun. </font color>

Ok long story short: what kind of tables and balls do u play with ?

<font color="blue"> 7' x 3 1/2' Valley Cougar. </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

MarkUrsel
03-19-2003, 09:13 AM
To digress off topic - or actually ON topic - the reason why you can't draw a heavier steel-cored cue ball or a larger diameter cue ball as much as a matched cue ball is pure physics.

The larger ball will hit the target ball slightly above center and having nowhere else to go, will jump up and forward slightly on soft shots and a lot more than slightly on hard shots. While it's in the air, all the spin in the world won't draw it back until it lands, perhaps bounces, and then starts drawing back. The more it bounces, the less it will come back.

For the heavier ball, because of the mis-match in weight, will strike the object ball and push ahead a bit before starting to draw back. It's mitigated a bit by the weight in that the cue ball is heavier, and with more weight comes more momentum in both speed and rotaion (it'll want to spin longer).

As for the miscues, I think we're talking about operator error! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod
03-19-2003, 09:15 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Well I measured some balls last night with a caliper. The object balls were around 2.212". The CB was 2.241". Difference of .030" or about 1/32". Shouldn't be enough to matter. Curiously after discovering this I had no miscue problems at all . The mind is a terrible thing to lose. LOL

The valley ball is a little heavier but shouldn't be a problem to draw.

Most of them aren't too bad but I have seen a couple that were dam near impossible to draw more than 8 or 12 inches...for me anyway. Mike Massey I ain't.

<hr /></blockquote>

Wally,
.030 makes a little difference, at any rate those o/balls are worn out. Since the c/b is the same size range it probably is a valley magnetic which is heavier to begin with. It will make a difference and at a distance will be even more noticable. Those balls must be in poor condition. Tell the owner to buy a new set of balls. lol

Rod

Wally_in_Cincy
03-19-2003, 10:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MarkUrsel:</font><hr> To digress off topic - or actually ON topic - the reason why you can't draw a heavier steel-cored cue ball or a larger diameter cue ball as much as a matched cue ball is pure physics.

The larger ball will hit the target ball slightly above center and having nowhere else to go, will jump up and forward slightly on soft shots and a lot more than slightly on hard shots. While it's in the air, all the spin in the world won't draw it back until it lands, perhaps bounces, and then starts drawing back. The more it bounces, the less it will come back.

For the heavier ball, because of the mis-match in weight, will strike the object ball and push ahead a bit before starting to draw back. It's mitigated a bit by the weight in that the cue ball is heavier, and with more weight comes more momentum in both speed and rotaion (it'll want to spin longer).

<font color="red">As for the miscues, I think we're talking about operator error! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

I believe you are correct /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Your physics explanation makes perfect sense to me. Thanks.

Brent
03-19-2003, 04:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Brent:</font><hr> How is the bar cue-ball heavier ???
Are u sayn that all ur APA (dont know how u call them) league games are on coin-ops ?

<font color="blue">Yep. Every one of them. </font color>

<hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Oh man. I feel kinda sorry for u /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif THe little evens that we got here like the Estonian Championships are on gold crowns and centurions. The one thing that we dont have are Super Pro TV edition balls made by aramith /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Wally_in_Cincy
03-19-2003, 04:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Brent:</font><hr>

Oh man. I feel kinda sorry for u /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif THe little evens that we got here like the Estonian Championships are on gold crowns and centurions. The one thing that we dont have are Super Pro TV edition balls made by aramith /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Brent, don't feel sorry for me. I also play in a 14.1 league on nice 9-footers with Simonis and sometimes tournaments on nice 8-footers. I can play on nice tables whenever I want.

I play in that bar table league by choice. That's where I started playing and I play on teams with a lot of friends.

It's all good.

Brent
03-19-2003, 05:40 PM
Ok /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif The sorry part was a joke though. ...I even dont remember playing on an 8 footer /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif all niners here /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif