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bluewolf
03-24-2003, 05:56 AM
In spite of my previous criticism of the APA, I decided that as long as I was in it, I might as well work to make it better so I read the APA manual for starters.

At vf I ran into our LO. We talked about forming a women's league in our area. He was very open and wanted me to help him get this started.

We haven't discussed specifics but I wondered if any of you had seen this successful in your area, how hard is this to get going and what is the best night or day for this. The LO was thinking of sun afternoon at 3pm,although he is flexible. This does conflict with the sun afternoon tournie I like to play in where I get to play better players, but there is also a great tournament on wed night I could play in, if the woman's league on sun seemed to be a good thing.

Just hoping to get insight here.

Laura

ChrisW
03-24-2003, 08:15 AM
Woman's APA has been going strong for many years around here.
Each year at least one team goes to Las Vagas (I think they even took 1st once).
My wife played for awhile and noticed that its a whole different apple than playing in the open league. Simply different attitudes.
Sorry I don't know much more.
Chris

wolfsburg2
03-24-2003, 08:32 AM
my very biased opinion is that if you like playing with better players, and being able to get a well rounded view of the game, stick with the open leaugue. just my .02

i think as far as apa, you will find better male players as a whole than females. i think that it will be much better for your game to play with males and females than restricting yourself to playing with a small part of the spectrum of players.

Wally_in_Cincy
03-24-2003, 09:28 AM
There are about 30 women's teams around here. 2 teams go to Vegas.

You tend to see more rules arguments in the women's division due to a handful of "rulebook queens".

And the matches take longer, generally speaking. Imagine a match where neither player can run more than 2 balls. I've seen a race to 2 take 90 minutes...honestly.

And wolfsburg is right. If you really want to improve play in the open division.

As an aside, my girlfriend was on an all female team playing in the open division once. They won the division. What an ego buster for the guys /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

wolfsburg2
03-24-2003, 09:47 AM
ego buster is an understatement. what a slap in the face to all the guys. good for the girls.

bluewolf
03-24-2003, 09:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfsburg2:</font><hr> my very biased opinion is that if you like playing with better players, and being able to get a well rounded view of the game, stick with the open leaugue. just my .02

i think as far as apa, you will find better male players as a whole than females. i think that it will be much better for your game to play with males and females than restricting yourself to playing with a small part of the spectrum of players. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree with what you said about the level of competition. I was thinking of doing it as a service to other women,some women dont like playing with men for things that have to do with women vs men issues. I think that lots of women, me included, would play in both for the reasons you stated. Other women, may feel more comfortable in an all women atmosphere in the beginning especially.

I think we lose women, beginners because they get the idea they are looked down on or they stay as twos because they do not think they are very good. Of course, people like me who have some confidence would work hard to move up. But I see this as not only a way for women to enjoy a different atmosphere, but as a way to built confidence in those coming in with low self esteem. I think that ultimately building self esteen is good for pool, the league and the women themselves.

I would be playing in two leagues or the womens league and a weekly almost all male open tournament.

Laura

wolfsburg2
03-24-2003, 09:55 AM
i would stay where the talent is. it will benefit you more.

not only that but i think your game woould suffer playing with lesser oponents because the competitiveness isn't there. play to your opponent's level type of thing. if you are serious about pool play with serious players imo.

bluewolf
03-24-2003, 10:03 AM
I really like the open tournament. Even in the league I am in, I rarely get to play with anything but sl2-sl3. Last week when I got to play against the sl4, I was really happy.

I want the competition and the opportunity to show that I can play a good match. It is not whether I win or lose that is so important.A win is icing on the cake of competition. I wish I could play sl4, sl5 every week but the team doesnt work that way.

So the open tournies are nice for improving ones game and for diagnosing areas that one needs to work on.

thanks.

Laura

wolfsburg2
03-24-2003, 10:14 AM
if you improve, and become a strong sl-wahtever, it will be beneficial for your team to have you play higher ranked players. if you have a pigheaded captain, who palys you against other 2's for no reason, then that is weak imo.

bluewolf
03-24-2003, 05:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfsburg2:</font><hr> if you improve, and become a strong sl-wahtever, it will be beneficial for your team to have you play higher ranked players. if you have a pigheaded captain, who palys you against other 2's for no reason, then that is weak imo. <hr /></blockquote>

Our captain is a nice guy who is trying to do a job which imo is beyond his capabilities. He is a good 3 and does not know how to do the matchups. He did not play me week before last. This past week I told him I would like to play because I did not want to just sit around for week after week and not play. And I got to play the four.

He is trying to balance playing people who are most likely to win matches, trying to get every ones matches to an equal amount and with the new additions, making sure they have the minimum six matches to play. I almost hated to say what I did say to him because I can tell he is having a hard time. He also has never encouraged sandbagging which is nice.

We also have too many twos and threes. Now that I have my required 6 to be in the playoffs, I am tempted to sit out for the rest of the session as a 2 or 3 or whatever I am next week (I never know from week to week since I have won 6 of my last 8 matches). That way he could play his 2 and 2 3s and and I could play in the open sun tourn where the lowest (besides me) players are high 4s and almost all men. The only other woman there is a semipro.

Anyway I am thinking of talking to him. That way he wouldnt have to juggle so much. Of course, he would not win as much either, so it is his choice. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura

TomBrooklyn
03-24-2003, 05:59 PM
Blue:

Someone like you who is so good at evaluating talent and picking match-ups would make a good captain. Why not start your own team? You could also consider looking to put together an all-women team. If you wanted to play two leagues nights a week, you could try to start two women teams. You wouldn't have to be captain on both of them if you could get someone to volunteer for the position. That might be a good way for you to evaluate the amount of female interest in your area. One thing tends to lead to another and it might be easier to approach the goal of an all woman's league in steps rather than trying to get a whole league started at once.

wolfsburg2
03-25-2003, 07:09 AM
you seem to be pretty level headed about the whole situation.

i also agree maybe you and the husband should start your own team, and be captain.

bluewolf
03-25-2003, 08:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> Blue:

Someone like you who is so good at evaluating talent and picking match-ups would make a good captain. Why not start your own team? You could also consider looking to put together an all-women team. If you wanted to play two leagues nights a week, you could try to start two women teams. You wouldn't have to be captain on both of them if you could get someone to volunteer for the position. That might be a good way for you to evaluate the amount of female interest in your area. One thing tends to lead to another and it might be easier to approach the goal of an all woman's league in steps rather than trying to get a whole league started at once. <hr /></blockquote>

I do think a woman's team is a good idea, but that will be getting flyers out,generating interest, finding out the best scedule for most women, and hopefully starting in the fall.
I also mentioned to my husband about me being a captain and he sht bricks. I think it would be nice if we could be co-captains so that he could give me some training, since he is a 7 .

Laura

ChrisW
03-25-2003, 09:32 AM
I'm sorry but I don't think co-captains is a good idea at all. Ask yourself if you were a co-captain, how would decisions be made. I think you would have an idea and he would have an idea. Then he would convince you he is correct because he is a better player than you.
WW being a 7 has absolutely zippo to do with being a good captain. All you need to be a good captain is a good balance between brains and brawn.
I know these seem like harsh words from someone who does not know your personal situation and I certainly mean no disrespect toward Whitewolf or you. I based my comments on what you said and what I have seen in the APA.

Chris

bluewolf
03-25-2003, 09:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ChrisW:</font><hr> I'm sorry but I don't think co-captains is a good idea at all. Ask yourself if you were a co-captain, how would decisions be made. I think you would have an idea and he would have an idea. Then he would convince you he is correct because he is a better player than you.
I know these seem like harsh words from someone who does not know your personal situation and I certainly mean no disrespect toward Whitewolf or you. I based my comments on what you said and what I have seen in the APA.

Chris <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks. You make good points. It might be better this way that you propose, then we could be on different teams. If I was a captain on his team, he would still be trying to run things.

Laura

Fred Agnir
03-25-2003, 09:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ChrisW:</font><hr>
WW being a 7 has absolutely zippo to do with being a good captain. <hr /></blockquote>Hear hear!

Not many 7's in my area are captains.

Fred

bluewolf
03-25-2003, 09:59 AM
Oh yeah, one thing that bugs me is when safes, I mean obvious ones do not get marked. When I have told my captain/scorekeeper that was a safe, he responded with 'it is the scorekeepers perogative to mark safes'. He even said that sometimes when I played an obvious one and turned and said 'that was a defensive shot'. I still have to learn a lot about safes in advanced players because they are more complex, but I guess that will come as I get better myself.

I saw the lo at vf. I told him most people do not have a very good defense game so they do not recognize a safe. Then he said a seasoned played should keep score. Almost nobody in our ph marks them, even when a player is obviously missing on perpose to make his innings higher so he can stay at the same sl. I would not make waves, but I would mark them.

Laura

Rich R.
03-25-2003, 10:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> Oh yeah, one thing that bugs me is when safes, I mean obvious ones do not get marked. When I have told my captain/scorekeeper that was a safe, he responded with 'it is the scorekeepers perogative to mark safes'. He even said that sometimes when I played an obvious one and turned and said 'that was a defensive shot'. I still have to learn a lot about safes in advanced players because they are more complex, but I guess that will come as I get better myself.

I saw the lo at vf. I told him most people do not have a very good defense game so they do not recognize a safe. Then he said a seasoned played should keep score. Almost nobody in our ph marks them, even when a player is obviously missing on perpose to make his innings higher so he can stay at the same sl. I would not make waves, but I would mark them.

Laura <hr /></blockquote>
This is a form of "sandbagging". /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

TomBrooklyn
03-25-2003, 12:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr>one thing that bugs me is when safes do not get marked. <hr /></blockquote>The way to make sure you get your own safes marked down is primarily by telling the opposing teams scorekeeper, not just your own. He will be pleased to credit you for every defensive shot you make.

Further, along with his captain, he will enthusiastically advocate on your behalf to retain the higher count in the case of a disagreement with your own scorekeeper. This will free up your own time which you can then use to explain to your teammates why you are trying to get your SL rating raised. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bluewolf
03-25-2003, 12:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> [quote=bluewolf
Further, along with his captain, he will enthusiastically advocate on your behalf to retain the higher count in the case of a disagreement with your own scorekeeper. This will free up your own time which you can then use to explain to your teammates why you are trying to get your SL rating raised. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

That whole sl apa thing is beyond me so I just gave up on it, I mean as far as what mine is or should be. I just think it is only fair to mark safes.The LO told me that when there is a discrepance between what safes are marked by one team and another, it is a red flag if one team is consistently not doing it.

But the whole league, I mean our thurs night league is guilty. To not look to bad, since they know I am watching them lol, they mark one or two when it should have been 5 or 6. Our league rep is just as guilty. He encourages his team to sandbag which is bad since he is supposed to be representing the LO.

Before I got a little better, I played this sl3 on his team. I mean this guy drew the ball well, did hard cut shots, shape and broke up clusters well among other things. No way he was a three. After the match, he grinned at me and said, 'I think I am a little better than a three" and he did a makeup game that night and beat that two, complaining that she should be a three lol.

I am trying to not complain too much and develop a positive relationship with the LO. I think he wants things done the right way but wonder if he knows some of what is going on. The people in this league have played together for years and are buds.

I have been told by my apa 7 hubbie who is buds with them also to not make waves or make enemies.

Geez. I am trying to be good but sometimes it is hard to know when to be quiet and gradually gain respect and when to tell the truth. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I wonder what Fran would do cuz she seems to know and do the right thing.

Laura

wolfsburg2
03-25-2003, 01:45 PM
i agree with you and it is not cool, but it is the reality of league play. people will sandbag, i have a real hard time bringing myself to do it. people will play two way safes where it looks like it could have been a legitimate attempt. but i agree with your husband don't make waves. if the lo and other reps aren't concerned or even aware, then why should you blow the whistle. it won't change. people in general will do whatever it takes to get even the slightest advantage.

i just play my game, and don't worry about others.

TomBrooklyn
03-25-2003, 02:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> sometimes it is hard to know when to be quiet and gradually gain respect and when to tell the truth. <hr /></blockquote>I like to tell the truth all the time. I find I feel better about myself and more deserving of and likely to get respect from others by telling the truth. Saying nothing is OK though. I don't feel obligated to point out my safes to my opponents scorekeeper, although it is prudent to make sure he marks all my innings.

If I felt compelled to lobby to get my SL raised, I would first tender my resignation to my team.

bluewolf
03-25-2003, 05:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> sometimes it is hard to know when to be quiet and gradually gain respect and when to tell the truth. <hr /></blockquote>I like to tell the truth all the time. I find I feel better about myself and more deserving of and likely to get respect from others by telling the truth. Saying nothing is OK though.

If I felt compelled to lobby to get my SL raised, I would first tender my resignation to my team. <hr /></blockquote>

For now i do not say much except to ocasionally point out a defensive shot and to mark them when I keep score.

I cannot see you lobbying to raise you sl. I dont talk about that to my captain or teamates. I do look at the sheet to make sure I am still the same handicap. this is partly because I do not understand the system that well and there are so many rumors floating around about how it works. The only way is if a player is complained about at handicap review. Last week we all turned in players who we thought were playing below or above their sl. I dont know them that well but ww turned in three names. I seriously doubt anyone would complain about me because I always play my best but who knows...

Laura