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bluewolf
03-25-2003, 08:49 AM
When we get our money and new table, WW wants to get double shimmed. I like the fact that on an ordinary table, that the opponent can have their ball in the pocket on one side, and you can still shoot yours in, knocking theirs out. Is it possible to do this on a double shim table or are the pockets too tight for this.

I have never played on this type of table so am looking for information about how it would affect regular play, other than having to be slightly more accurate. Like if a normal pocket is 4 1/2, then how big is a double shimmed pocket.?

Also, what is the extra shimming made of? Does it break down any more easily?

Laura

cycopath
03-25-2003, 11:16 AM
I guess it would really depend on the table. Like a Diamond Pro's pockets are already so tight you can't get two balls to sit in the jaws. It's like a ball and a half wide.

Popcorn
03-25-2003, 11:18 AM
If you table has reasonably tight pockets, I would not be making them any tougher. Be in the habit of hitting all balls accurately on what ever table you play on and you will always have productive practice. The table does not make you play sloppy, you make you sloppy, form good practice habits. Some tables are set up to be traps but are not really that good to play on. For the average player they will just be frustrating and not much fun. There are things you should be able to do on a fair table, otherwise you are not playing the game. I have played on tables that you could hardly hit a ball with any speed or just touch a rail without the ball spitting out. The game is not mente to be played like that. You can always do it at a later time but I would not be to quick to do it now. You just want a fair table. At your stage of play, you would not find it much fun, believe me.

bluewolf
03-25-2003, 01:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> If you table has reasonably tight pockets, I would not be making them any tougher. Be in the habit of hitting all balls accurately on what ever table you play on and you will always have productive practice. The table does not make you play sloppy, you make you sloppy, form good practice habits. Some tables are set up to be traps but are not really that good to play on. For the average player they will just be frustrating and not much fun. There are things you should be able to do on a fair table, otherwise you are not playing the game. I have played on tables that you could hardly hit a ball with any speed or just touch a rail without the ball spitting out. The game is not mente to be played like that. You can always do it at a later time but I would not be to quick to do it now. You just want a fair table. At your stage of play, you would not find it much fun, believe me. <hr /></blockquote>

This is not something that I want. This is something that my apa 7 husband wants. But then he was trying to talk me into using pocket tighteners 6 months ago, when I could not pot a ball. Now, I am really getting good at getting balls into the pockets, but they are not going dead center, sometimes, they just kind of flop in. When I say good, I mean for a person who has a sl up to a not so good 4, which is where I will be at some pointsoon I hope. But I think it will be a long time before I can hit everything dead center.

And I like to be able to get a ball past another person's ball in the pocket

Laura

Fred Agnir
03-25-2003, 01:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> I have never played on this type of table so am looking for information about how it would affect regular play, other than having to be slightly more accurate. <hr /></blockquote>Part of the difference, beauty, and mastery of the game of pool is related to the fact that an average tight pocket isn't tremendously tight (e.g., a snooker pocket). Making things too tight, IMO, hurts one's game, not helps. Unless you only plan on playing on tremendously tight tables, there's no reason to do so. Others will have an advantage when you step back into regular pocket sizes. It's not all about shotmaking. Not even close.

Fred

Carlton31698
03-25-2003, 02:05 PM
Fred Agnir [ QUOTE ]
Part of the difference, beauty, and mastery of the game of pool is related to the fact that an average tight pocket isn't tremendously tight (e.g., a snooker pocket). Making things too tight, IMO, hurts one's game, not helps. Unless you only plan on playing on tremendously tight tables, there's no reason to do so. Others will have an advantage when you step back into regular pocket sizes. It's not all about shotmaking. Not even close. <hr /></blockquote>

This is very true. I play on a Dimand pro it is not double shimmed (thank God LOL) but it is tight. We also have 9 ft gandys in the room, I miss more balls on the gandys, I always thought it was b/c of constration or lack of when playing on the gandys.

Cueless Joey
03-25-2003, 02:15 PM
I hate double shimmed tables. The pockets tend to be "boingy" since there are two rubber shims there.
Now, a tight table like the one Ernesto does play much better. He extend the cushion AND the rail (with wood) and shim them with the white looking shims (not the cheap rubber variety). They play much better because they take in balls more honestly coming down from the side rail.
Doing a billiard or carom is harder on tighter tables imo.

03-25-2003, 05:14 PM
I have shimmed tables myself and worked on thousands of tables. To make a properly shimmed up table to make it tighter, you should do what the previous person wrote. Do not just add rubber shims it usually does not react or look proper when you go too tight. the best way is to extend the rubber cushion to the proper length needed, then use a hard wood backing to support the cushion on the backside and only use 1 pocket shim, this is the cleanest and best way to tighten a table. I have a pool room and our 1 pocket table is customized to about 4 1/4". if you play 1 pocket it is much better with a tight pocket versus a standard openning. Yes the pocket shims do start to fall apart after years of play mostly in commercial settings though! hope this helps

NBC-BOB
03-26-2003, 12:41 PM
Call around to your local rooms and ask them if they have any tight pocket or 1 pocket tables and go play on it for awhile.

Rod
03-26-2003, 12:47 PM
As mentioned double shimed tables don't play well unless there done right. A friend had a triple shimmed table, if you hit the rail just below the point it was dead. Extend the wood and cushion is the only way.

Rod

John G
03-26-2003, 12:54 PM
(Popcorn) "I have played on tables that you could hardly hit a ball with any speed or just touch a rail without the ball spitting out."

Yeah I have a table like that, and unless you're hitting em real good, it's about as much fun to play on as a train wreck. At a lower level it could be more discourging then helpful. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif lol John G

03-27-2003, 04:26 AM
Aren't you guys lucky you have never played the traditional Finnish billiard game called Kaisa (or Karoliina, ...that's Caroline in you language either way). The balls are larger than pool balls... but the pockets are tight as... [fill in a very visual metaphor]! A pocket is (often) about 1/5 of an inch larger than the ball. Man is that game tough! Pro-cut Snooker pockets are just plain fun compared that!

bluewolf
03-27-2003, 04:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote weelie:</font><hr> Aren't you guys lucky you have never played the traditional Finnish billiard game called Kaisa (or Karoliina, ...that's Caroline in you language either way). The balls are larger than pool balls... but the pockets are tight as... [fill in a very visual metaphor]! A pocket is (often) about 1/5 of an inch larger than the ball. Man is that game tough! Pro-cut Snooker pockets are just plain fun compared that! <hr /></blockquote>

Well I guess you are either a sharp shooter or you quit in that environment.

Here are some of my concerns. Suppose I play on a ds at home and get used to it and do become more accurate. This is assuming of course that I do not become so frustrated with my own table, as popcorn intimated, that I start playing at the ph exclusively LOL.

Then I play in league or in a tournament. My opponent can now slip his ball past mine that is sitting in the corner or can get past me on a bank to the side, etc. I am not expecting this because I am used to tighter pockets which wont let that happen. My gut tells me that the home table should be as close to the tables that one plays on in tournies as possible, for that reason.

But we are going to go to the ph and look at the double shimmed anyway.

Laura

Wally_in_Cincy
03-27-2003, 07:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote weelie:</font><hr> Aren't you guys lucky you have never played the traditional Finnish billiard game called Kaisa (or Karoliina, ...that's Caroline in you language either way). The balls are larger than pool balls... but the pockets are tight as... [fill in a very visual metaphor]! A pocket is (often) about 1/5 of an inch larger than the ball. Man is that game tough! Pro-cut Snooker pockets are just plain fun compared that! <hr /></blockquote>

That sounds like a game I've heard of called Russian Billiards.

WaltVA
03-27-2003, 08:19 AM
Laura - I would agree with Popcorn - you want a fair table, not one that will frustrate the learning player needlessly. You mentioned in another post that you were working on learning shape. Too-tight pockets may inhibit your learning to move the CB by cheating the pocket - something you may eventually want to practice.

I'd be inclined to opt for standard pockets and use pocket reducers for precision drills, rather than going double-shimmed from the get-go. JMO.

Walt in VA

Popcorn
03-27-2003, 08:30 AM
It may do more then just frustrate you. It could give you the shakes, destroy you confidence and wreck you game all together. You need to play on a fair table and as I said before, develop a habit of hitting all shots accurately regardless of how hard or easy a table may play. That is how you become a good player. I am not just talking about shot making, it takes an accurate hit to play good position and have the cueball move predictability. That is why it may seem so hard for an average player to play good position. The pocket may accept the ball, but it was not hit accurately enough to produce the correct angle for position. Making a ball does not necessarily make it a good shot if it was not accurate. That may be the biggest difference between players period, that little extra accuracy that consistently produces a better result. Two players may appear to play even, but they really don't. One has that little edge that you can't really see, but it is there. It would even be the case with a player of your speed. That player that plays a sl above you may not seem to be that much better of a player. But the gap may be a little more then you realize. There are subtle differences in their play you can't see.

Troy
03-27-2003, 08:40 AM
I don't see where all your questions were answered, so I'll give it a try.

Start with a standard corner pocket at 5". This includes a 1/8" shim on each side made of rubber similar to shoe soles.
Therefore, a double shimmed table would have 4 3/4" corner pockets which would barely let a second ball pass.
A 4 1/2" pocket is closer to a triple shimmed table and I've played on tables that were 4 3/8".
One pocket players prefer tight pockets that were done by extending the rail length. They seem to play better that way, specially for those tight bank shots.
The wear factor of the shims should not be a concern since they will last longer than the cloth.

Unless you're going to be playing 1-Pocket, I'd go with 4 3/4" corner ockets.

Hope this helps... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Troy

bluewolf
03-27-2003, 09:14 AM
Thanks. I am learning to cut the ball in a certain way and use a certain speed to get position but I emphasize that word 'learning'.

Laura

bluewolf
03-27-2003, 09:19 AM
The numbers confuse me. Are you agreeing with popcorn that the regular table is better or the double shim?

Also someone said diamond pro is tighter pockets. Is this true? If so, how much tighter?

Laura

Cueless Joey
03-27-2003, 09:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> The numbers confuse me. Are you agreeing with popcorn that the regular table is better or the double shim?

Also someone said diamond pro is tighter pockets. Is this true? If so, how much tighter?

Laura <hr /></blockquote> http://www.barenada.com/images/diamondpocket.jpg
Is that tight enough for you? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Notice the end rail's cushion facing is flat. It points way below the side pocket. Rail shots are tough on this table.
I rememer when Hard Times had 4 1/4" pocket Gold Crowns. The players said the lone Diamond in the corner was tougher even though it had bigger pockets. Hell, nobody played on it.

bluewolf
03-27-2003, 09:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> The numbers confuse me. Are you agreeing with popcorn that the regular table is better or the double shim?

Also someone said diamond pro is tighter pockets. Is this true? If so, how much tighter?

Laura <hr /></blockquote> http://www.barenada.com/images/diamondpocket.jpg
Is that tight enough for you? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Notice the end rail's cushion facing is flat. It points way below the side pocket. Rail shots are tough on this table.
I rememer when Hard Times had 4 1/4" pocket Gold Crowns. The players said the lone Diamond in the corner was tougher even though it had bigger pockets. Hell, nobody played on it.
<hr /></blockquote>

I did not get the picture. The pockets on our 8 foot table are std I think but smaller than the 9 ft brunswick gold crown we play on in league. I make more balls on the 9 ft at league.

Laura

Troy
03-27-2003, 10:04 AM
As I said, if you get 4 3/4" corner pockets, done properly by extending the rails, you should be very pleased.

Troy

Troy
03-27-2003, 10:10 AM
Quite possibly due to a larger shelf.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr>
The players said the lone Diamond in the corner was tougher even though it had bigger pockets. Hell, nobody played on it.
<hr /></blockquote>

Fred Agnir
03-27-2003, 10:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr>

I did not get the picture. <hr /></blockquote>http://www.barenada.com/poolcues.shtml

Go to the bottom of the page.

Fred

TomBrooklyn
03-27-2003, 10:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> The players said the lone Diamond in the corner was tougher even though it had bigger pockets.<hr /></blockquote>I think Diamond tables are mostly made with slightly smaller pockets because thats what most pros liked. The early ones were found to reject the ball somewhat unfairly sometimes and they found they needed to change the angle of rail bevels. I think they found the bevels shouldn't be the same on a 4 3/4" pocket than a 5" pocket. It didn't work out well. If you knew when that table was purchased you could check with Greg at Diamond and he could probably tell you if that is the case with that table.

This factoid would indicate that simply shimming a larger pocket is not the ideal way to reduce the pocket size.

Popcorn
03-27-2003, 05:08 PM
The pocket is twice as big as the ball and you use different parts of the pocket when pocketing the ball to create angles for position play. You may shoot a ball straight in and draw back for position. If you don't pocket it correctly, you could end up completely on the wrong side of the table with the cue ball. You have to know how you want to pocket the ball before shooting to get the best result. Of course I am talking about somewhat easy shots you expect to make. On some long hard cut, you may just be hoping to make the ball in most cases. This super accurate play is the close up game and it is very important if you want to play at a higher level. You see that nice close up game when a one pocket player runs 8 and out, or running out an 8-ball rack when there are a lot of balls on the table. I think it is what the beginning and average player should concentrate on. You notice in a lot books, the exercises are almost always close up position play. It is some of the easiest to learn and the backbone of a solid game in my opinion. I remember when I was a kid playing older players, I always marveled at how, once they got in position they would run out. They may not make that length of the table shot all the time, but they were still very tough to beat.

dddd
03-28-2003, 12:44 AM
simply when you get the table have the rails cut to allow for a certain opening dimension.
using shims on table are everywhere, they need to place a material to protect the exposed crosscut rubber rails from wear. putting more that one on facings is only done when
"existing" table are "tightened"
shooting into smaller pockets can only have a good result. there is a greater need for accuracy and understanding how the balls are rolling when they enter that opening.
being fustrated over the "tightness" well perhaps one may be fustrated, but you must ask yourself what it is you want? be truthful, if becoming a better shooter is the answer well - there it is.
i like the table tight, tighter the better. i dont have any problem with it. one doesnt want just anything falling into that pocket , that wouldnt be right

bluewolf
03-28-2003, 06:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> The pocket is twice as big as the ball and you use different parts of the pocket when pocketing the ball to create angles for position play. You may shoot a ball straight in and draw back for position. If you don't pocket it correctly, you could end up completely on the wrong side of the table with the cue ball. You have to know how you want to pocket the ball before shooting to get the best result. Of course I am talking about somewhat easy shots you expect to make. On some long hard cut, you may just be hoping to make the ball in most cases. <hr /></blockquote>

Yeah!!! It sounds like I am finally doing something right. On the short, easy shots, I am trying angles, speed differences and top for shape . Like you said, on the long shots, I just try to make them. Something else I would eventually learn to do that I have seen really good players do is to be able to come off a short shot and send cb down the table, making a hard shot into an easy one.

Thanks popcorn! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura