View Full Version : it happened again in virginia
03-26-2003, 10:47 AM
i was sent an email last night asking me to find out if all the players were paid at the MID Atlantic 9 ball tournament in Virginia in January. So i sent a few emails to a few people to inquire and was totally surpprised at the response i got. The answer in no and i was told to look in this months issue of billiards digest and to look under the heading,,,"DID I STUTTER". it really surprised me. I thought the tournament went well. Now my question. If this was held under the UPA BAnner. Why did they not all get paid. I thought they were there to make sure this happens.. Did Charlie not make Brady put up all the Money in advance like he tried to do at the Open last year? Or did everything just fall apart. Some answers please from Charlie or someone in the UPA.I am not looking to start any fights or trouble here just looking for some answers on what happened. I am not condemming the UPA or Brady. I am just wondering what happened.................Mike
03-26-2003, 11:12 AM
Charlie did not demand that Brady place the money in escrow before the tourney. He said they are doing everything they can to work with independent promoters to make it easier to get UPA sanctioning. Charlie said he was reluctant in voting for the decision to not place such demands on Brady before the tourney. It's looking like another step backwards....
03-26-2003, 11:16 AM
I'm sure that, holding the tournament on the same weekend as the Super Bowl, did not help attendance. From what I heard the attendance was very disappointing.
03-26-2003, 11:42 AM
Yeah, Brady mentioned that the gate was disappointing and that many sponsors gave him product instead of cash.
03-26-2003, 11:52 AM
I have never run a tournament before, so if this is a simple question then my apologies.
BUT, when securing sponsorship for tournaments, wouldn't he get this money up front? Seems that would make sense to asking for the funds to be placed in escrow.
I am surprised this issue stayed so quiet and it was never talked about. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif If this is true, it is a shame for the players. They have to pay up front right away and then don't get paid when they win.
Maybe Brady will come here and clear it up and get the record straight.
03-26-2003, 01:45 PM
I talked to one of the players who did not get paid while I was at Valley Forge. It had really crippled him as he had gotten a hotel room knowing he had finished in the money and then had no way of paying for it.
I understand that Barry had banked on a bigger turnout and that he had to accept some merchandise from some of the sponsors. I know we all want to support the tournaments but this is really tough on the players where there is very little reward for their efforts anyway.
It may all come down to that sad fact that the players are last in line for everything, as usual. It is to their credit that a bigger outcry has not erupted. I, also, hope Barry comes on and gives us a little comfort that this is not going to be the norm from now on. We need him and the other promoters but they have to step up and pay the players.
03-26-2003, 02:10 PM
Correct me if I am wrong. Wasn't this a total Brady tournament being run without his dad's help?
03-26-2003, 02:28 PM
That's the scoop I got. No connection to his dad.
03-26-2003, 10:37 PM
well all i can hope for is that is does not have a negative effect on the OPEN in SEPT. That would be a real bummer. i really look forward to going there every year.....Mike
03-27-2003, 02:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> holding the tournament on the same weekend as the Super Bowl did not help attendance. I heard the attendance was very disapointing. <hr /></blockquote>Super Bowl weekend? Huh? Whaaa? Nobody goes anywhere except to watch football on Super Bowl weekend. Duh. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
03-27-2003, 05:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Singlemalt:</font><hr> Correct me if I am wrong. Wasn't this a total Brady tournament being run without his dad's help? <hr /></blockquote>
Bummer for the players and for Charlie and Brady.
I know that Charlie is not very old and Brady is even younger. I feel that they are trying to do big things for their young bodies and possibly inexpereinced minds. I think perhaps a financial advisor would be a good idea for either of them if they do not already have one.
03-27-2003, 07:32 AM
To make it a profitable venture it would be advised to have financial help. It does not take a genius though to know you can't promise money you don't have. I don't know what happened but if they are willing to take a gamble putting on tournaments, and that means they profit from it's success. They better be willing to payoff if it is a failure, no excuses, and I mean NO excuses. I don't expect to get paid extra if the tournament is a huge success, but I do expect to get paid what is promised regardless of success of failure. That is the risks they have chosen to take and that is that, from my point of view. W
03-27-2003, 07:58 AM
Not even of interest to the player, they just want to be paid.
03-27-2003, 08:05 AM
After all the heat Charlie Williams took over requiring the U.S. Open money to be guaranteed, I think we have to give him some credit for keeping a low profile on this. There's been no public whining and no public attacks on Brady.
[ QUOTE ]
After all the heat Charlie Williams took over requiring the U.S. Open money to be guaranteed, I think we have to give him some credit for keeping a low profile on this. There's been no public whining and no public attacks on Brady. <hr /></blockquote> Agreed. I wonder if Brady is going to give us any more information.
I am also surprised to see this happened again after failed gate sales to another Behrman.
After hearing all the great stuff said about the competition, I guess everyone has decided to try and let this instance pass. I am perfectly fine with this, as long as the players will get their money. There is a lot of support for Brady here on the board, so maybe he can clear the record for us.
03-27-2003, 08:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> To make it a profitable venture it would be advised to have financial help. It does not take a genius though to know you can't promise money you don't have. I don't know what happened but if they are willing to take a gamble putting on tournaments, and that means they profit from it's success. They better be willing to payoff if it is a failure, no excuses, and I mean NO excuses. I don't expect to get paid extra if the tournament is a huge success, but I do expect to get paid what is promised regardless of success of failure. That is the risks they have chosen to take and that is that, from my point of view. W <hr /></blockquote>
Only way to do business. It is called being a man or a person of their words. In my parent's day, a handshake was binding. It is for me too in matters of money.
03-27-2003, 08:30 AM
Can anyone who has ever produced a tournament tell me what is wrong with doing the following:
Advertise the tournament with the prize fund being Paid Entries + Sponsorship money. Then the promoter keeps all of the gate. This way, the promoter reaps the benefits of a huge gate, but if there isn't one, the players don't get hurt.
They could even advertise it as Paid Entries + Sponsorship Money + 20% of Gate. You might have a little bit of difficulty "verifying" the gate, but that shouldn't be too bad.
I don't know... this stuff seems fairly cut-and-dried, but I'm willing to learn. Anyone with experience, please tell me why the above might be problematic.
03-27-2003, 09:59 AM
I am not trying to bash either CW or the UPA or Brady. I have alot of respect for Brady. He tried to do something good and it apparently did not come out perfect. I was also not trying to create a hornets nest. I was just wondering what happened is all.........................mike
I agree completely. I wanna know also. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
03-27-2003, 10:16 AM
I'm certainly no expert but I guess the reason this suggestion would not work is that the players need a bigger payout to afford international travel, several days of hotel, meals, and expenses. This was a $30K added tourney (if memory serves me) and without this added money you are talking about very small paychecks for the top players who are traveling from the Philippines, Germany, Sweden, Canada, Holland, Italy, Russia, etc. If you can't pay the big bucks then you won't get the big names. If you don't get the big names you don't get spectators - no spectators means no interest from vendors or sponsors, and therefore, no tournament.
It is unfortunate but the entire pool industry is totally cash poor. It is very difficult to make a decent living as a player, manufacturer, distributor, writer, publisher, promoter, or any other way you can think of to try to get paid in this sport. You know that as well as anyone, I'm sure.
I don't have the answers but I think it's important for all of us to support anyone trying to find them.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cueball1950:</font><hr> I am not trying to bash either CW or the UPA or Brady. I have alot of respect for Brady. He tried to do something good and it apparently did not come out perfect. I was also not trying to create a hornets nest. I was just wondering what happened is all.........................mike <hr /></blockquote>
Look, I don't know Brady or anyone involved, but why would you worry about his reputation if he stiffed players. Popcorn is right here. The money is owed and must be paid now no matter what. "Trying to do something good for the sport" is inadequate and is no excuse. Having no tournament is much better for the sport than having a tournament and stiffing players. And players getting stiffed should create a "hornets nest." When teams in other sports get in financial trouble it is reported. So people need to stop being so sensitive. Particularly those who want to improve the sport. Now, I am not one of those people who thinks that pool will ever be a major attraction or draw sponsorship sufficient to have a lot of tournamnets with significant prize money. Sure it would be nice, but I doubt that will ever happen. But if pool is ever to improve, issues like stiffing players, dumping tournaments, etc... have to be confronted. And if the truth is that the sport is in woeful condition, fix the problem rather than putting lipstick on a pig.
03-27-2003, 12:12 PM
Hey Mike, do you have any information on how widespread this was? Was it just the top few finishers? Did they get some? Any ideas on percentages?
03-27-2003, 03:52 PM
Check out the article in this month's issue of Billiards Digest.
Most of the top placers in the event did not get completely paid. It sounds as though about half the added money was missing.
Ironically, Charlie Williams was one of the players who were shorted money.
What surprises me the most about this situation is
1. It's taken a couple of months for this bit of news to hit everyone.
2. Brady didn't learn from his father's mistake by promoting an event with "Guaranteed" on the posters.
I agree with you about assuring the money paid out to the players rather than hoping for the "Gate" money. The promoter's incentive for the event should be the "Gate" money and the players know exactly what to expect.
It does seem to be an easy formula.
03-27-2003, 07:05 PM
I must add this to the post. I did send Brady an email asking him what happened. Usually he will respond within a day. Since he did not i decided to post. I have yet to receive a reply from him. I did ask him in person why he scheduled it for super bowl sunday. His reply was he wanted it right after the Derby city classic. It was cheaper financally with having the tables delivered and set up since it was so close to the DCC tournament. But i am still hoping to get a reply from him by email and i hope he comes to the board and gives an explanation. i feel his heart is in the right place.But sometimes things just go awry...MIKE
03-27-2003, 09:19 PM
As much as I hate to post about this, I wanted to show you "My Ol Friends" That I am not hiding under a rock..I did have problems at my event. I lost over 20,000.00 and owe out 10,500.00 now. I should have this paid off next week and have been in close contact with Charlie to resolve this issue. I realize that I have let many of you down but I will Prove that I am very capable of doing great events. My love for pool goes back to when I was just an infant and I too will help pool grow even with this set back. This past two months has been really difficult but I am working my way out. I Dogged It! To say the least. I will have a Press Release out immediately following my final payment to explain all my set backs. I would hope that You, "My Pool Family" would exercise a little acceptance being this was my first MAJOR event and please know that I will commit myself to ensuring this will not happen again!
I look forward to any emails Brady@Fantasy9Ball.com , If you think I shouldnt promote anymore, Please make me aware. I want to hear everyone's thoughts..
P.S. Mike, I am not trying to avoid any emails. I have been working alot and havent had much time to check emails, etc..Thank you for coming to my event!
03-27-2003, 10:13 PM
I am curious, why don't you do tournaments that are less risk? Do the numbers and what it is, it is. It is nice to advertise big prize funds, but if you are losing money, what the heck. You have to do what will work, you can't be losing money all over the place. You know, as much as you would like to do them, there may really be no money in it. At what point did you know things were going bad? I bet it was not pleasant having to tell the players. Years ago Richie Florence put on some tournament with very large prize funds. He thought the more money, the bigger the public interest, maybe even TV. The entry fee was $1000.00 with a 128 player field. That way he could advertise a tournament with a prize fund of like $128,000.00. Here was the trick, last place was $600. In other words you got back $600. when you showed up because that was the last place guarantee. That made the prize fund really $51,200 with a full field. I think there was some added money I don't remember. In Atlantic City a few years back a group did a few tournaments with a phony prize funds. All the players knew it was a fake tournament and they were to be paid depending on the success of the tournament. They figured they would get better interest if people thought they were playing for more money again maybe some TV. I think Rempy won and he was standing there with a check for something like $25,000. He really got I think $1500. Another failed pool organization, they never seem to learn. That one was run by Pete Margo if I remember right.
03-27-2003, 10:36 PM
I read all of the posts about this topic. I think everybody is being a little hard on this poor kid.
It is not the end of the world. I am sure in due time that the money that is owed will be paid, and paid with an apology. I think the kid tries real hard with what little he has and deserves a little bit better faith than what he is getting.
Again, the person, or persons, whoever he owes, had some type of a satisfactory agreement entered into, and so all of this barking back and forth about Brady and this incident isn't helping anybody. Let nature take its course by allowing this pact to be resolved professionally.
Brady is too nice of a guy to be screwing people. He is young, and we need him around to help our suffering pool industry.
03-28-2003, 06:41 AM
I think your heart is in the right place. Perhaps someone with some financial knowlege could help you to plan this so that this will not happen again.
Maybe not so big payoffs for lowere finishing players?
I hope you do the ccb tourn again /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
9 Ball Girl
03-28-2003, 02:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Brady_Behrman:</font><hr> I realize that I have let many of you down but I will Prove that I am very capable of doing great events. <hr /></blockquote>Not me honey. You can only learn for next time is all.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Brady Behrman:</font><hr>I Dogged It! To say the least.<hr /></blockquote>Well, you did a better job than I could've!
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Brady Behrman:</font><hr>"My Pool Family" would exercise a little acceptance being this was my first MAJOR event and please know that I will commit myself to ensuring this will not happen again!<hr /></blockquote>You can definitely count on me to be there for your next one!
Wendy~~see you in September... /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif
03-28-2003, 03:19 PM
This is the first I have heard about this happening. What I would like to say is that Brady did make a reply in public and to a certain extent made available information he really didnt have to. I do believe he is working on rectifying the problem and it will be fully resolved. So, like Earthquake said,"go easy on the kid". We really do need him if the game is to advance. Also he seems to have the courage to put an event of that size on. Reguardless of success or failure.
03-28-2003, 03:22 PM
I've only met you once, but it was a good first impression. For what it's worth, I'm 101% in your corner. It's good to see someone try to do something to help pool grow. Doing anything is better than nothing at all and I wish you success. Perseverance, my man.
Thank you for replying. I am happy that you have been doing what needs to be done to pay everything off. I have to commend you. In the little I see of the pool world, you are the one person I see working. There are always bumps in the road, just make sure to chalk this up to lessons learned.
Good luck, and hopefully I will get to see one of your events. I have only heard great things about you.
03-29-2003, 07:33 AM
Brady, it is obvious to me that you are working things our. Otherwise, I'm sure we would have heard the public ranting of the U.P.A.
Learn from your mistakes and I'm sure you will not have any trouble in the future.
HINT: Don't hold pool tournaments on Super Bowl weekends. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Although I don't know the extent of the problems between you and your father, I'm sure his recent problems are very stressful for the entire family. I hope he gets the help he needs to recover from his problems and that you and he can overcome your differences. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif
03-29-2003, 11:41 AM
Steve nearly 40 years ago I wrote an appeal in the American Billiard Review that the professional poolplayers should do what the Russians did when they discovered that we had the Atom Bomb. They didn't try to invent theirs they stole our secrets.
I said that the Professional Golfers have the blueprints for a successful pool tour, just copy what they are doing. 40 years later they still haven't got it.
In the time since I wrote that piece the Touring Pros who by the way are holding their Championship this week, now have 4 major golf complexes plus 400,000,000 in their bank account while the poolplayers have zero. Sad to say they have caddies who made more money caddying last year than all the money won by poolplayers.
They had promoters come up short on two events, then they took over the running of all their tournaments with the exception of the US OPen,Masters,Pga,. They involve whole communities in the promoting of their events with proceeds going to local charities. They now say in advertisements that they have raised over 700 million for charities. How to go about transforming poolplayers into the thinking like pro golfers that is the problem. ####
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