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View Full Version : You make the call. . .



heater451
03-29-2003, 12:54 PM
I was playing a local 8ball tourney last night, and chose to play a safe, in order to gain some time to get a better shot. I shot the 9 from down-table, to leave the cueball on the "far side" of my opponents ball (see the diagram).

My opponent looks at his options, lines up on the 7, calls 'safe', and strikes immediately, lightly pushing the cueball into the 7 (see diagram).

(Sorry, the rest of the balls are missing, because I don't recall the whole setup.)

START(%GF2D0%IH5Y8%PE7R1%UF1F0%VE7Q1)END

He went pretty much straight into it, and didn't touch the rail with the cueball. I had not called the 7 frozen--because it was so obviously frozen that I couldn't beleive he chose to hit it that way (although, I know he was trying not to scratch)!

When I asked, "That was frozen, wasn't it" (meaning, "That was a foul, why would you hit it like that?"), he just said, "I didn't look at it".

Well, I realize that it was my fault for not calling it, but I also feel that I didn't really have time to tell him, since he pretty much called 'safe', and hit before I could have said anything. Honestly though, I did have time to imagine whether he could get the cue to the rail w/o scratching. . .

My question isn't whether it was a foul, since I didn't call the ball 'frozen', but, was this guy a jerk? (If I were going to play safe, I would see if it were frozen, so I would know if I could shoot what he did.)

Just wondering, "What would the CCB do?", when in his position.


(BTW, since he left the 7 frozen, I just played safe off the 9 again, leaving him basically the same shot once more. I managed to win the game.)


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Troy
03-29-2003, 01:08 PM
I can't find it in "The Book", but I'm sure a ball is not frozen inless it's declared frozen prior to the shot.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> I was playing a local 8ball tourney last night, and chose to play a safe, in order to gain some time to get a better shot. I shot the 9 from down-table, to leave the cueball on the "far side" of my opponents ball (see the diagram).

My opponent looks at his options, lines up on the 7, calls 'safe', and strikes immediately, lightly pushing the cueball into the 7 (see diagram).

(Sorry, the rest of the balls are missing, because I don't recall the whole setup.)

START(%GF2D0%IH5Y8%PE7R1%UF1F0%VE7Q1)END

He went pretty much straight into it, and didn't touch the rail with the cueball. I had not called the 7 frozen--because it was so obviously frozen that I couldn't beleive he chose to hit it that way (although, I know he was trying not to scratch)!

When I asked, "That was frozen, wasn't it" (meaning, "That was a foul, why would you hit it like that?"), he just said, "I didn't look at it".

Well, I realize that it was my fault for not calling it, but I also feel that I didn't really have time to tell him, since he pretty much called 'safe', and hit before I could have said anything. Honestly though, I did have time to imagine whether he could get the cue to the rail w/o scratching. . .

My question isn't whether it was a foul, since I didn't call the ball 'frozen', but, was this guy a jerk? (If I were going to play safe, I would see if it were frozen, so I would know if I could shoot what he did.)

Just wondering, "What would the CCB do?", when in his position.


(BTW, since he left the 7 frozen, I just played safe off the 9 again, leaving him basically the same shot once more. I managed to win the game.)


==================== <hr /></blockquote>

Wally_in_Cincy
03-29-2003, 01:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr>

My question isn't whether it was a foul, since I didn't call the ball 'frozen', but, was this guy a jerk?.... <hr /></blockquote>

YES.

You were outmanuevered by an unscrupulous opponent. Next time you play him you will be forewarned.

Unfortunately you are correct, it was not a foul. At least you won the game.

Unless there's some other applicable rule of which I am not aware. I guess "unsportsmanlike conduct" could be applied...maybe /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

heater451
03-29-2003, 01:37 PM
I get you, but the funny thing is the tourney tends to be mostly guys 37-up, with a handful of guys 30-37, and usually about 2-3 guys in their 20s.

I bring this up, because the older guys tend to be more "stand up", and are the kind that hand you the cue ball if they foul, even if you weren't paying attention. The guy I talked about is about 23-24 (26 at the most).

The thing is, I'm only 32 now, but I was never like that in my 20s--and I don't understand why so many 'kids' seem to go by the "win, at any cost" route. It would take the fun out of it for me. . . .


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Rod
03-29-2003, 01:41 PM
Allen,

I'd say he put a maneuver on you, he shot then acted dumb. Either that or they will say it wasn't frozen. Anyone who has played a while knows to check if it is frozen. If I'm in a safety exchange I'll be Johnny on the spot when it comes to shooting a ball in question. If a person even approaches a similar shot I'll call out, the 7 is frozen. This kind of thing happens in league and tournaments more often than it should and sadly as you know someone can get away with it.

Rod

Troy
03-29-2003, 02:11 PM
I agree with you. It's difficult to teach some young'uns pool manners.
They just don't seem to "get it".

When I was about 15-16, an "old man" of about 60+ got ahold of me and taught me basic manners (among other things). One thing he told me was that this originally was a "Gentlemen's Sport" and I should always treat it that way. I try to remember that regardless of my opponent.

Troy

smfsrca
03-29-2003, 02:56 PM
I don't undestand why you all condemn the shooter for not checking to see if the ball is frozen. I guess by your logic the rule should be "It is unsportmanship like conduct if the shooter does not look to see if the ball is frozen when it is close to the cushion."
By their silence, both the shooter and the sitter made the same assumption, that it does not matter and what ever the shooter does is ok.

dg-in-centralpa
03-29-2003, 04:19 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gifI had this happen to me this year in league. The ball was so frozen it had icycles on it, but I didn't call it as such. Neddless to say, I won't take anything for granted again. I will call anything and everything.

Barbara
03-29-2003, 05:08 PM
Hey!

It's your job in an unrefereered match to call over the TD or Ref when a shot is in question. It's up to you to call a ball frozen to the rail when it is, or else it is not considered frozen to the rail. You should call the Ref or TD over to make this assessment if your opponent gives you a problem.

Now if you feel the need to make a frozen ball assesment and your opponent doesn't give you the time to do so and shoots his shot, well then you have to call the TD over and remind your opponent that this game is a two-way street and you get to observe a questionable situation. Period. End of story. If your opponent gives you another hard time, then it's time to call the Ref or TD for an Unsportsmanlike Conduct Foul on your opponent. Guaranteed he'll look like the a-hole he really is by the time your match is done.

This is a tournament. Play by all the rules.

Barbara

Tom_In_Cincy
03-29-2003, 05:30 PM
HEATER451
You knew the rule, hesitated and then got "Burned" (ironic, that the rules from a book burned you.. ref. "451")

Regardless of the opponent's view, all balls are considered NOT Frozen unless you state it so, prior to the shot.

If it were me, shooting or sitting, I would have checked prior to the shot to see if it were frozen.

Its not your opponents fault that he assumed it wasn't frozen.

Gentlemen playing this game, follow the rules.

heater451
03-29-2003, 05:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> HEATER451
You knew the rule, hesitated and then got "Burned" (ironic, that the rules from a book burned you.. ref. "451")

Regardless of the opponent's view, all balls are considered NOT Frozen unless you state it so, prior to the shot.

If it were me, shooting or sitting, I would have checked prior to the shot to see if it were frozen.

Its not your opponents fault that he assumed it wasn't frozen.

Gentlemen playing this game, follow the rules. <hr /></blockquote>That is quite funny, actually. . . . /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Yeah, I can understand what you're saying as well, and I shouldn't expect anyone to not take advantage of the rules when they can.

I think that this situation, and rule, fall into the area of "how things should be" VS. "how things are".

I suppose that the difference is, when I am in the other shoes, the I want to know whether the ball is frozen, so I would inspect it closely. I also do so, in order to inform the other player, because if I intend to not touch a rail with the CB, then I want them to know it's going to be a legal rail-contact by the (non-frozed) ball. --If it were frozen, I'd shoot something else.

As you all have shown me, the lesson amounts to "trust no one". And, although I feel that most good shooters are trustworthy, I will still have to be on my toes in the future.

This has made me think of a few more questions: Is there a rule, covering whether the opponent has to wait, if you need to use the restroom, go to the bar, or pay the waiter/ess? Do you have to take breaks only on your turn? What's the protocol?


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Troy
03-29-2003, 06:11 PM
This on I did find -- BCA 1.13 Time Out : Only during a player's turn. No practice allowed. Each p[layer allowed one five minute timeout per match.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> Is there a rule, covering whether the opponent has to wait, if you need to use the restroom, go to the bar, or pay the waiter/ess? Do you have to take breaks only on your turn? What's the protocol?


================== <hr /></blockquote>

Troy
03-29-2003, 06:16 PM
By extending your logic, no fouls would be called... No double hits, no ball interference if touched, and on &amp; on.

Troy
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote smfsrca:</font><hr> I don't undestand why you all condemn the shooter for not checking to see if the ball is frozen. I guess by your logic the rule should be "It is unsportmanship like conduct if the shooter does not look to see if the ball is frozen when it is close to the cushion."
By their silence, both the shooter and the sitter made the same assumption, that it does not matter and what ever the shooter does is ok.
<hr /></blockquote>

bluewolf
03-29-2003, 06:49 PM
This came up in my last match, although in a different way. I called it frozen as did my coach. The opponent said that is was not frozen and her captain started looking at it almost like through a magnifying glass to prove that there was a glimmer of light so that he could prove that it was not frozen. I think that several other people came up to look at it to see if it was frozen.One person said it wasnt frozen because they saw a shadow or a glimmer or light or something so I said fine.Geez, it was an apa match between a sl2 and a sl4, it isnt like it was the us open or something. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

It seemed kind of rediculous to me. Either way she did not have a good shot after the hit. But how does this sort of thing work?

Laura

jjinfla
03-29-2003, 07:06 PM
How do you know that he didn't look at the ball and think it wasn't frozen? Not nice of you to blame him for your mistake. And besides, you were at the table last and should have announced that the 7 was frozen before you went to your chair. I have watched too many good players jump up immediately saying "is it frozen?" and then checking the ball. And I have had guys call it frozen when it was plain (to me) that it wasn't, and we have to get someone else to check it. Like the baseball umpire said when asked if the ball was fair or foul - it may be fair, or it may be foul, but it ain't nothing until I call it. Then there is the three foul rule. Ever forget to tell your opponent that he is on two? Egg on your face if he misses on three and you didn't tell him he was on 2. Happened to me ONCE. And when you are playing call the 8 or 9 and you fail to call the pocket on a short, obvious shot and get called on it, does that upset you? As they say, pool is a gentleman's game. And a true gentleman will learn the rules and play and abide by them, not go crying about them. Of course none of this applies to money games because the two players involved know what rules they are playing by. This nonsense only happens on league night usually after 4-5 beers. Which is one of the reasons I gave up on league play. Jake

TomBrooklyn
03-30-2003, 04:04 AM
As the shooter in a fun game, I would check if the ball was frozen or ask my opponent to check it.

In a tournament match or with anything on the game if it was close but I thought it wasn't frozen, I might not check it and would not feel obligated to do so as it's the non-shooters role to call balls frozen. If I thought it was frozen I would probably check it. If it was frozen, I wouldn't pretend it's not just because my opponent didn't call it.

bluewolf
03-30-2003, 10:54 AM
I guess I will have to drag out the old APA bylaws.

Laura

wolfsburg2
03-30-2003, 11:27 AM
i usually get a weird look, but as the shooter, i always yell to my opponent "hey x-balls not frozen right?"

just so there is no doubt

heater451
03-30-2003, 12:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> How do you know that he didn't look at the ball and think it wasn't frozen? Not nice of you to blame him for your mistake.<hr /></blockquote>He told me that he didn't even look. (Although, I've already admitted that it's my fault for not calling it frozen.)<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> And besides, you were at the table last and should have announced that the 7 was frozen before you went to your chair. I have watched too many good players jump up immediately saying "is it frozen?" and then checking the ball.<hr /></blockquote>Is there a rule about having to call it immediately? <blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr>. . .And when you are playing call the 8 or 9 and you fail to call the pocket on a short, obvious shot and get called on it, does that upset you?<hr /></blockquote>Most of the guys I play with either call it, or ask "do I have to". Otherwise, in many matches, we know who is likely to call us on that rule. <blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr>As they say, pool is a gentleman's game. And a true gentleman will learn the rules and play and abide by them, not go crying about them. <hr /></blockquote>Not wanting to appear "crying about it". I just find a difference in how I play, and how some play. You're making an inclusive argument here anyway--I think in some ways you can consider a gentleman as someone who plays by the letter of the rules, but I also think that "gentlemen's rules" are unwritten. (I know, I know--can't expect that in competition. . . . /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif )



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heater451
03-30-2003, 01:01 PM
But, "during" really means "at the beginning or the middle", right, since a miss would technically end the players turn?

~~too lazy to check a rulebook


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UWPoolGod
03-30-2003, 04:33 PM
I had had a larger response written, but got rid of it. Would you have done the same thing if you had been in the same situation having him not called it frozen either? Looking at the shot, I would have probably done what he did, since you didn't call it frozen. Or I would have made the 7 double kiss the cue back to the bottom rail.

What did he do the second time you left him the same shot? Did you call it frozen that time?

heater451
03-30-2003, 05:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UWPoolGod:</font><hr> . . . Would you have done the same thing if you had been in the same situation having him not called it frozen either? Looking at the shot, I would have probably done what he did, since you didn't call it frozen. Or I would have made the 7 double kiss the cue back to the bottom rail.<hr /></blockquote>I've already stated, that I usually check, because I want to know if it's frozen, and if it's not, I inform the other player.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UWPoolGod:</font><hr> What did he do the second time you left him the same shot? Did you call it frozen that time? <hr /></blockquote>I told him that it was "still" frozen, the second time. He had a little more angle, and went for the back-bank to the corner, but double-kissed and missed. (I remember that he still had another ball and the 8 to go, but I can't remember why he couldn't shoot it. . .)


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Kato
03-30-2003, 08:18 PM
Even in a "friendly" game you should check and call it. "Obvious" is not something you should count on.

Last Wednesday I was playing JackPot George and he called a foul on himself on a ball frozen to the rail. I never checked on it but he was honest and it cost him the game. That's being stand up. I wouldn't count on it in league and tournaments though.

Kato

rod in atlanta
03-30-2003, 11:37 PM
hey guys.

i'm actually the guy that heater451 was playing that fateful night. i apologize, for i didn't mean to make this a big deal.

from what i could see of the table, the seven may or may not have been frozen. i came to the table from where his nine was, and i guess i didn't look at the seven ball that well. he didn't call it "frozen," so it never entered in my mind. i was trying to put the cueball on the rail near the seven, and just plain missed. i did not intend to outmaneuver heater or be a jerk.

although i am only 23, and still new to the game, i don't think i'm a bad shot. i'm an apa-6 in both eight and nineball for those of you who don't know me.

i thought it was funny that this thread was about me. i didn't even know who heater451 until now.

well, i've got to get back to studying for a test i have in the morning.

rod in atlanta

heater451
03-31-2003, 12:42 PM
Rod,

Hey, I am of course now embarrassed by my post. (Which is sort of strange, because something 'told' me not to post it, out of fear that you might visit the board--I didn't even put your ID together with your name! I should have 'listened'.)

Yes, I thought it was a jerkish maneuver, but I still respect your playing ability.

As I said when it came up in the match, you were right and I was wrong(since I did know the rule, after all).

And, I guess I let it get to me, because I sometimes feel that certain rules are a little counter to sportmanship--but I now realize that is MY hangup.

I am also impressed by the fact that you actually came out and said who you are, and I hope that you don't hold a grudge--I certainly don't, and I hope that it's not an issue when we play again.

(Hmmm, this has also reminded me that I should police my own behaviour a little more, as I let my feelings overtake me--it happens sometimes. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

For what it's worth, I apologize.



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Wally_in_Cincy
03-31-2003, 01:02 PM
That's part of the reason I've never lied about my speed here on the CCB. You never know who's out there /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Maybe next time your opponent will give you time to call the frozen ball. That was the original point wasn't it?

No need to be embarrassed. You had a legitimate beef and you asked for opinions.

UWPoolGod
03-31-2003, 01:08 PM
Off the subject...that is a great waiving flag there Wally

Tom_In_Cincy
03-31-2003, 02:15 PM
UWPoolGod,

Just to give credit where its due, Wally had it first, I liked it so much... I copied it.. Love to wave "Ole Glory"