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View Full Version : Rail shots off a cut



bluewolf
03-31-2003, 07:39 AM
The situation: Long rail or short one no difference, same principles apply. We arent talking about a difficult cut, 45% at most.

I have heard that it is ie on frozen to the rail, oe if ob is away from the rail.

I was having trouble with cuts on rail shots where the ob is approximately one balls width away from the rail. I was told by a certain person and no it wasnt scott or fast, to use oe on this shot. Well I kept missing wide. So I decided to try ie and it sunk over and over short or long. As long as my aim was accurate, with ie, it sunk.

Then the ball is 2 ball widths from the rail on a cut. oe sunk these shots.

Interested in knowing what people here do.

Laura

Popcorn
03-31-2003, 08:47 AM
Why would you use different english bases on different distances from the rail? What is the concept behind it?

Yuppie
03-31-2003, 08:58 AM
Sounds like you might have a problem aiming. When using english, the CB will throw slightly to the left or right depending on the english used and the player usually compensates for this even if it is just slightly.

I'd say practice the shots with no english and either hit the CB high or low. When you start making those, then use english. You'll miss at first. This is where adjusting for squirt comes in.

For the most part, I'd say english is used for CB placement AFTER the OB has made it to the pocket. Some will disagree, but this is from my experience from play, reading and talking with other really good players.

Just my $.02.

Fred Agnir
03-31-2003, 09:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> Why would you use different english bases on different distances from the rail? What is the concept behind it? <hr /></blockquote>I remember the first time I really drew the ball far. I happened to be stretched out almost to an uncomfortable point, and was aiming low. My left leg was laying on the table. My chin grazing the shaft. The ball zinged back with an intoxicating action. Probably *the shot* that hooked me for good on this game.

In an effort to try to repeat the action, I copied everything from the previous shot with demented reasoning that all of the above were requisite for that zinging draw. Stretched out, chin on shaft, leg on table, the whole dance. I think that's how (odd pool advice) spreads. One person does something in a certain way for no apparent logical reason, but the results are what they were looking for. So, they spread the "knowledge." "Hey, I did it this way, and it worked." That should be okay, right?


Fred &lt;~~~ wrong

Deeman
03-31-2003, 09:02 AM
I use inside and outside English based upon where I want the cue ball to go. However, I sort of use the following when I need to cinch a ball. At 10 degress or less cut, I hit both the ball and the rail at the same time. For cuts up to 30 degrees I use a touch of outside if the ball is less than a few feet from the pocket. For steeper angles I use inside and catch the rail slightly before the ball. For extreamly sharp angles approaching 90 degrees, I use a ton of inside and catch the rail first. For balls slightly off the rail I'll ususally favor hitting the cushion first. For long slight angle shots the length of the table, I call my wife to hit them. She still misses but it makes me feel better!!

Dee

landshark1002000
03-31-2003, 11:50 AM
Hi Bluewolf:
A 45% cut is a basic shot. Every basic shot can be made using Centerball. Whether the OB is on or near the rail -- it's still just a basic shot.

If you consistently miss the OB to one side -- adjust your aim.

Please trust me on this. You don't even need English to sink this shot. If you practice this shot with Centerball until you get it; your game will be better for it.

--Ted from Phoenix

qSHAFT
03-31-2003, 05:40 PM
If you are talking about a mid angle cut on an frozen object ball down the rail shot, I believe you are mistaken about not requiring english, unless the shot is hit really hard or the balls are really clean to enliminate throw. If you hit the ghost ball spot without english ie object and cushion together the throw will direct it out of the pocket.

All frozen down the rail shots require outside english to pot if they are a long enough distance, however the confusion occurs because it does not always appear to the shooter that they are using outside english. To most people, the frozen rail shot can be potted in three ways:

1) no english (centreball) hitting cushion slightly first - by hitting the rail first they invert (cut from the other side) the path of the cue ball and the cue ball picks up a spin from the cushion collision which is in fact equivilant to outside english.

2) inside english cushion slightly first - this is the exact same as number 1 except that the person has explicitly put inside english on the shot instead of letting the cushion collision do it for them. Because the direction of the cut has been inverted by the cushion hit this is also the same as outside english.

3) outside english cushion and object ball together - must hit the ob at the same time as the cushion or a minute fraction before. If it hits the cushion first then the inversion of the cut angle will be equivilant to inside english and disaster will ensue.

Of course if it is slightly off the rail then you could get it with genuine inside english or none but thats another story.

My own opinions ofcourse /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif- qSHAFT

bluewolf
03-31-2003, 05:42 PM
Thanks for everyones suggestions.

Laura

SpiderMan
03-31-2003, 06:07 PM
BW,

The shot you describe is just a cut shot, far enough from the rail that it has no bearing other than the fact that the pocket gets a little smaller from that angle. Also the "center" of the "apparent pocket" moves a little.

Anyway, my choice of english for this shot would depend solely on where I wanted to send the cueball. If I didn't care about position after the shot, I would use just enough outside to counteract throw, so that variations in ball-ball friction wouldn't make me miss.

If you are making the shot with some english and missing with others, it just means that your mind's built-in compensations for cue-ball squirt off your cue and ball-ball throw compensation are not all right.

Set up the shot and shoot it with centerball. If you miss, adjust only your aimpoint (don't add english!!) until you can roll it in over and over again.

Now set up the same shot and shoot it with outside. In most cases you will have to aim thinner (unless the CB and OB are pretty close together), but do it over and over until it is going in. Repeat using inside english, now you'll probably have to aim thick. All this has to be committed to memory, and it takes a lot of repetition.

The reason that outside english is more often the shot of choice is because you only have to get the squirt compensation right, and that is easy assuming you always use the same stick and same weight cueball. Plus you use only a little bit of outside, so there's not much squirt anyway. The variation of ball-ball throw doesn't enter into the calculation if you use outside. For people that use all sort of different cues, centerball may be easiest because then there is no need for squirt compensation, and they only deal with the throw variables. Inside is the most difficult, as both variables must be compensated correctly. Even for a player with a pretty good built-in set of compensations inside english = higher miss probability if your equipment is unfamiliar.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> The situation: Long rail or short one no difference, same principles apply. We arent talking about a difficult cut, 45% at most.

I have heard that it is ie on frozen to the rail, oe if ob is away from the rail.

I was having trouble with cuts on rail shots where the ob is approximately one balls width away from the rail. I was told by a certain person and no it wasnt scott or fast, to use oe on this shot. Well I kept missing wide. So I decided to try ie and it sunk over and over short or long. As long as my aim was accurate, with ie, it sunk.

Then the ball is 2 ball widths from the rail on a cut. oe sunk these shots.

Interested in knowing what people here do.

Laura <hr /></blockquote>

TomBrooklyn
03-31-2003, 07:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>...deal with the throw variables. <hr /></blockquote>I never consider throw variables. On any shot, at any cut angle. I find the ghost ball aim point works and I can't see any effect due to throw. Since it doesn't appear to happen to me, I don't compensate for it. I have studied the teachings of some of the most highly regarded instructors in the world such as Ray Martin and Jimmy Reid and they don't say anything about throw. Throw-Shmow.

SpiderMan
03-31-2003, 07:37 PM
Have you never shot a soft cut and had the CB seem to "drag" the OB along a little bit as it passed, almost as if they stuck together, and the shot misses wide? That's an extreme example of cling-induced throw, usually with very gritty/dirty balls. With cleaner equipment the effect is less, but the point is it varies so it is tricky to compensate.

With just the right amount of outside, the CB rolls across the OB rather than sliding across it, and then the surface condition doesn't matter. It could be that you unconsciously use a little bit of outside on all your cuts, negating throw. Many players do that.

BTW, I haven't read any Jimmy Reid, but if you can find a copy of Ray Martin's "99 Critical Shots in Pool" he addresses throw specifically in that book. Several of the shots depend upon the throw effect to be made as diagrammed. His discussion of the "third ball principle" is all about allowing for throw when deciding if ball in a cluster is a dead combo.

Byrne's "Standard Book" and "Standard Video" also both address the throw variables. In the video he further splits his description into what he calls "directional throw" and "english throw", but both are actually due to the same situation - the surface of one ball sliding (rather than rolling) across the surface of another ball.

SpiderMan

TomBrooklyn
03-31-2003, 07:43 PM
Marty:
I hardly ever play in bars anymore, and I usually drink when I do, so my judgement is impaired when I'm in there. In pool halls, I generally won't accept dirty balls as is. I'll ask for another set or to have that set cleaned. I don't do that to avoid throw, I just much prefer the way they look when they're nice and shiny. Maybe thats why I haven't noticed throw though.

I can't find my copy of 99 CS at the moment, but I recall RM discussing two frozen balls throwing and throw induced by english but not throw induced by cling. Static cling, it sounds like something that happens to laundry.

SpiderMan
03-31-2003, 07:47 PM
HaHa, I'm outta here - all this talk is making me want to play pool!

SpiderMan

Rod
03-31-2003, 09:04 PM
People get comfortable shooting shots with a certain english. Then they rely on that method when position doesn't warrant using it. IE works on a frozen ball just fine and so does OE. The same when it is off the rail. Conditions and shot speed play a part too. If you use any english just to help make the ball keep it under a tip. You'll have less of an adjustment in compensation of aim.

Rod

Tom_In_Cincy
03-31-2003, 09:14 PM
Tom,

Next time you are at a table set up this shot.
Make sure the ob is 2 balls from the side rail set up like below.

The 2 ball and 8 ball are frozen and lined up to hit just to the pocket side of the first diamond. See arrow head.

Then just hit the cue ball into the 3 ball combo.... at medium speed. (not pocket speed, but a litter more)

The 2 ball is thrown into the cornter pocket..

Wei table link
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html

Shot setup

START(
%Ak3J3%Bg6G4%CJ5O4%DL7N1%Ej3I3%FK6P1%GK6N8%Hh9G4%I l3K3%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pn2M6%UD1G7%Vf7G3
)END

I have experienced that the throw is about inch for every 2 feet of the table.
Please let me know your results.

bluewolf
03-31-2003, 09:39 PM
Cling, if I have the word correcty, is discussed in Jack koehler's Science of Pocket Billiards. I kind of thought that it is a scientific fact. The only way a shooter could not be aware of it if they are a totally by feel player and so advanced that they are automatically compensating and all the balls are falling.

I noticed it because I thought I was aiming correctly but was still missing. People here explained throw and cling. It certainly makes sense to me.

Laura

dddd
03-31-2003, 10:37 PM
I am assuming this is being shot down the rail to the corner pocket.

Give this a minutes thought.
The shot is somewhere past the side pocket and you will be shooting down the rail past the side and into the corner pocket. You have some angle not too great but angle nonetheless. (This could be shot practically anywhere, but for the sake of repeatability we will shoot it nearly the length of the table)
Instead of using English to adjust the aim back to where you want the ball to go.
Aim to miss the pocket some number of inches up the rail. Now use that English and shoot to the point on the rail not the pocket opening. No other adjustment just hit it.
Use outside low and hit it. It could surprise you quite a bit. How well the ball will straighten out and move down that rail very nicely.
Try different speeds and amounts of English.
Generally this shot will be shot with some distance off the rail but I am beginning to think its not necessary. I have had some success with the ball on the rail itself and still aiming to shoot into that point on the rail, (not the pocket). This I find to be interesting indeed. To my way of thinking now - there is less to consider and adjust for.

The inside or outside English, I will whenever possible only use English to move the q ball off the rail to shoot the next shot.
Hit the ball where it needs to hit to make it always works best for me.

TomBrooklyn
03-31-2003, 10:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>Next time you are at a table set up this shot. <hr /></blockquote>I know the second of two frozen ball will throw Tom, which is what you diagramed. What I don't notice, however, is any throw when hitting one object ball. I aim to hit it right on the theoretical contact point without any allowance for throw. Maybe I'm making an unconscious adjustment, but I don't think so. Thanks for putting the Wie table link in your post, Tom. It is a lot easier to open it that way.

bluewolf
04-01-2003, 06:06 AM
Thanks. This is something I will experiment on. When the ob is frozen to the rail, this seems the easiest to me. Whether it is a cut down the short rail or the long rail to the corner also did not make much difference.

We were experimenting with one ball out rail shots. WW told me to use oe. I really looked at the shot to be sure the aim was accurate. Then I applied oe, maybe I put too much like 2 tips, and it thre to right of the corner. When I applied ie to the same shot, it sailed right it.

Sounds like I will have to experiment more including suggestions from this board. This has been a weakness, I plan to do it over and over with so many permutations that it is a strength.

'an amateur shoots a shot until they make it, a pro shoots a shot until they cannot miss'

It would be nice to be a 'pro' on at least a few shots. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Thanks CCBers.

Laura

Tom_In_Cincy
04-01-2003, 07:09 AM
Tom,
(you are welcome about the wei link)

If you remove the frozen ball behind the 2 ball and just use the 3 ball combo.. (if lined up correctly) you'll see the same result.

The 2 ball will be moved towards the rail (however so slightly, but enough to change the path) by the hit of the cue ball.

Some call this 'throw' others call it aim correction.

Fred Agnir
04-01-2003, 07:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote qSHAFT:</font><hr> All frozen down the rail shots require outside english to pot if they are a long enough distance, <hr /></blockquote> I disagree.


<hr /></blockquote>1) no english (centreball) hitting cushion slightly first - by hitting the rail first they invert (cut from the other side) the path of the cue ball and the cue ball picks up a spin from the cushion collision which is in fact equivilant to outside english.<hr /></blockquote>I think this is an interesting observation. I wonder if there's been any camera work done on it.

Anyway, when striking the "cushion first" there are at least two different variations of this when hitting center ball or inside english.

A) One is to hit the cushion first and then hit the object ball as the cushion is decompressing. That is, the cueball hits the object ball as it is rebounding towards the center of the table.

B) The second is to hit the cushion first and then hit the object ball as the cushion is compressing. That is, the cueball hits the object ball while going into the cushion. The cueball would hit the cushion just a hair before the object ball. The contact point would be a slight overcut to compensate for collision-induced throw. That's why the cushion is actually hit first, since the cueball can't get to that point without going through the cushion nose first.

I think it's important in the second case to note that

1)there's no outside english
2)the aimpoint would be judged as if it's a normal cut, but compensating for contact-induced throw. That's the old "cut it like there was not cushion" suggestion.

The position pattern difference becomes obvious with two as the cueball in example A) goes roughly perpendicular with the cushion since it's simply deflecting off the object ball at a tangent when coming off the cushion.

The cueball in example B) will travel depending on the spin, since the object ball is long gone while the cueball is still interacting with the cushion. In the following WEI, I've got inside english on the ball for demo purposes only.

START(
%Ac8D0%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pi1G1%Qe3X9%RX5X9%U E2D4%Vb6D0
%We7Y0%Xe0D1%YX7X8%Zd7D6%eA6a3
)END


I'd like to say one way is tougher (less margin for error) than another, but the reality is there are too many people who will swear that such-and-such is the best way. They can't all be right.

Fred &lt;~~~thinks we weren't actually discussing frozen cushion shots

Fred Agnir
04-01-2003, 08:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> The situation: Long rail or short one no difference, same principles apply. We arent talking about a difficult cut, 45% at most.

I have heard that it is ie on frozen to the rail, oe if ob is away from the rail.

I was having trouble with cuts on rail shots where the ob is approximately one balls width away from the rail. I was told by a certain person and no it wasnt scott or fast, to use oe on this shot. Well I kept missing wide. So I decided to try ie and it sunk over and over short or long. As long as my aim was accurate, with ie, it sunk.

Then the ball is 2 ball widths from the rail on a cut. oe sunk these shots.

Interested in knowing what people here do.

Laura <hr /></blockquote>It sounds like the rail is giving you optical delusions /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Since you're a beginner, I would definitely suggest that you learn to make these shots with no english. That way, you have a reference point for future shotw with english.

Centerball, with a little follow. Roll, don't skid, as Larry might say. If you alway undercut the ball, that simply means you are... undercutting the ball. Cut more, even if it seems like you're aiming off the pocket (which in reality, you might have to). Does "missing wide" mean you're undercutting or overcutting? I'm assuming undercutting. If not, don't bother reading any further.

Now, to the reason, and I'll be so bold to say I know exactly what's going on. If you are indeed aiming too thick, for whatever reason. Whoever is suggesting to you to use OE is probably doing so because he feels you need to counteract contact induced throw (or that's just the way he does it). But, as is always hammered about, there are more things than just throw that happen on shots with english. First thing is squirt. And if you're hitting firmly, that might be the only thing that's really affecting the shot. So, by using inside and hitting firm (or you're relatively close to the object ball), then the squirt results in a thinner cut than the original aim. So, you make the ball.

If this is what's happening, then I would assume that when you use outside english, it gets worse (undercut even more) not better.

Fred

bluewolf
04-01-2003, 08:37 AM
Thanks fred. I was being careful to hit the ball accurate but maybe my angle to the pocket was off.With cb oh well maybe I will try the wei thing.

the shot.

START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JC5C9
%KJ5P7%LF6D0%MK6Q4%ND6O6%OD8D1%PG4T8
)END

Centerball is the middle ball in the corner pocket, it hit the tip of the pocket. OE went wide hitting the long rail. It is on the right of the three balls. The ball on the left which made it into the pocket was ie. I did repeat this several times and also on the long rail with the same results.

Maybe my aim is off a smidlge or something else is going on like cling. I thought that oe was good to adjust that so really do not know why things happened this way.

This is my first wei attempt so hope i did this right.I still dont know how to make those arrows

Laura

Fred Agnir
04-01-2003, 08:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> Thanks fred. I was being careful to hit the ball accurate <hr /></blockquote>If it were as easy as "I was careful to hit the ball accurately", then this game wouldn't be a challenge. Being able to hit the ball accurately is one of the biggest hurdles for anyone from beginner to advanced.

[ QUOTE ]
START(
%AN7O5%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JC5C9
%KJ5P7%LF6D0%MK6Q4%ND6O6%OD8D1%PG4T8
)END

Centerball is the middle ball in the corner pocket, it hit the tip of the pocket. OE went wide hitting the long rail. It is on the right of the three balls. The ball on the left which made it into the pocket was ie. I did repeat this several times and also on the long rail with the same results.

Maybe my aim is off a smidlge or something else is going on like cling. I thought that oe was good to adjust that so really do not know why things happened this way.<hr /></blockquote>It's not cling. If it were cling, you'd end up hitting thicker. But you're hitting thinner. You're aim is too thin, or you're simply hitting too thin due to a stroke error. What speed are you hitting at?

Try this, and see what happens.

a) aim thicker with center ball.
b) aim the same with OE, but hit is harder.
c) aim the same with IE, but hit it harder.

Pay attention to where you miss. That will tell you how to adjust.

Also, if you are using center ball, what is the path of the cueball? That will also tell you if you're putting accidental english on the ball.

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks Laura's centerball alignment is off

bluewolf
04-01-2003, 10:02 AM
I think you are right fred. I just tried cb and it went it.Dont know why it did not work the other night. One problem I have is that lots of my balls flop in rather than hitting the center of the pocket. ours pockets are 4 and 1/2 and ww wants tighter ones /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

But thanks fred. Sorry to be such a bother.

Laura

TonyMN
04-01-2003, 01:03 PM
Bluewolf,

To get the arrows on the Wei table, click-and-hold on one end of the arrow at the bottom of the table and drag it onto the table. Then click-drag the other end of the arrow. Repeat until the arrow is in the right place.

The last two arrows have an extra dot in the middle that can be dragged to make curved lines.

Tony.