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View Full Version : Remember Roll Out on all shots in nine ball....



Deeman
03-31-2003, 04:01 PM
Am I a crumudgeon at 50? I just remember how important shotmaking was and how you took on many shots that people today don't even remember because of the old rules. I know that the present rules allow a different strategy and sells more jump cues but there just seemed to be a beauty to the game that was less a formula and more an artful dance of skilled craftsman than now. Maybe my memory is jaded by the character and characters the game had then.

I know Johnny Archer and Corey Duel are probably as good as anyone who ever hit a ball but it sure seemed more exciting back then. Perhaps it is just that most of these were high stakes games but I swear I don't see games of that intense quality very often anymore. I might be smarter now as well but I think most of us can tell you how most pros will duck or hide the cue. Many years ago we were very often surprised at what some of the greats would pull out of their bag of tricks. Ever see Harold Worst run a rack, or Buddy Hall (in his youth) spot a really good player 3 or 4 balls? Ever see a one handed match for more then you'll make in a month? I know, we are busy santizing the game but I still feel we need a little of the old game around so it doesn't die. JMO

q4summit
04-01-2003, 04:16 AM
I hear ya and wish for the same thing. Personally, I think the pros now adays suck compared to the pros back when. The females miss at least once a rack. Men it is every other rack or so.

I would really like to see some of the top pros run 13+ racks straight without a problem. That to me a is a pro. That to me defines a top player. Even 10 racks straight of 9 ball would impress me. This is something I never see on ESPN, not even by Efren.

I would also like to see high rollers at the tables. race to 10 for 10k. Something that would really make you sit on the edge of your seat. Would love to see some of the top pros throw down some hardcore cash and play 1 handed spotting their opponent. That to me is true skill that only an Elite could obtain.

But, I live in a world where hope rules reality. Before any of this can take place, there needs to be a nitch for men players. They might get more tournaments than females do, but they don't get as many endorsements/sponserships, tv time, book deals, ect ect.

Once men's pool hits the spot light, which it will (eventually), thats when pool from "The Golden Age" will make its way back. Could take 5 years, could take 50.

Time will tell.
Marc

Rod
04-01-2003, 01:39 PM
Deeman,
I remember that well myself so if you are a curmudgeon then I guess I am to. Not that it will make you feel any better.
I left pool for many years only to come back and find someone could duck, hide me and I couldn't push out! Near everyone played the same game and would not risk going for a shot. Why should they when they might get a cheap ball in hand. It sure took away many of the great shots we use to shoot or watch.

Push out is another game in itself. It is knowing what you can do and observe what your opponent weakness and strengths are. When I was younger LOL and had eyes like an eagle I might push out to a tough cut, long draw whatever, where bringing whitey around for position was very difficult. The guy I'm playing passes on the shot and I nail it. After a couple of times or so he can't pass it back because he knows I'm going to make it and run out. So he decides to shoot it and sells out anyway!
Push out is an art and strategty knowing where to push, shot making is in demand. Were not seeing the likes of the shots we use to see and rarely will on tv and gambling. They won't take that chance but if the game was still alive it would sure be more exciting.

People will say it is to long and drawn out plus is to slow for tv. That might be partly true but if you watched the great players it is anything but slow or boring. I guess it had it's place with gambling and not likely to surface again. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif After the lay off I still played a little push out sometimes but once they knew it not as easy as they thought it died out again. Sadly the only push out now is after the break. Hey it's not completely dead. LOL

Rod

Tom_In_Cincy
04-01-2003, 02:13 PM
OH,.. DeeMan.. you have to make it down to the Derby City Classic next year.

One Pocket, Banks and 9 ball.. and then there is a Pro Tournament.

Lots of action and 24x7 enjoyment.

I played "roll out" or "two shot foul" 9 ball and recently ran a tournament under these old rules. It was an invitation only tournamet with some of the more decent players in this area. All of them enjoyed the game. Even at $50 per player, 16 man field. I paid 6 places. Double elimination, race to 7.

I do know that the better player usally won (not like today's rules with BIH ANYwhere on any scratch). And, the games, on average, took longer. And the strategy took longer to learn. Shape was just like it is today, a very important part of the game.

"Spot shots" for shape anywhere on the table were a common site to be seen being practiced by almost all the decent players.

I do think that todays rules have opened the game to players that needed an added advantage to be able to compete with the better players. More players, better for the business. Its just what the industry needed.

The tables are better today than they were 40 years ago and the equipment is much better also.. PLUS....there are very will qualified instructors available in just about every major city. Can you think of anyone in 1960 that would teach anyone how to play pool? Let alone have an instruction book or video available?

The only way to learn back then is to get up close (match up) with the better players and pay for the education, one match at a time.

No one ever showed you shots, even if they could explain them to you, it might come back to haunt them by you beating them with a shot that they taught you. It was like a secret society of knowlege that even they didn't like to discuss amongst themselves.

It took me forever to figure out to compensate my aim, for left or right english.

Deeman
04-01-2003, 02:49 PM
Rod, we are soulmates. My story is so similar to your's it is frightening. I think there is a whole world of strategy that the younger guys don't know about and I have been on both ends of the make it or die senerio, like you. Man wasn't it cool to see someone give up a shot and get so wacked he would never give up that shot again. I remember practicing the spot shot 'til I wore paths in the table. Now it has little value.

Tom, I remember saying that the learning the use of inside English cost me $2,500 but in fact it probably cost more. You are dead on about the way you learned back then. Hit and miss, pay for your losses, do it again. I remember the old timers cueing in the center then adjusting their stroke in mid-stroke to hide the English.

The first book that taught me anything was the Pocket Billiards one by Edward D. Kutchel. Before that, you were lucky to get any advice from anyone. It's funny, all these people want lessons in how to run racks and learn special shots. I still take a lesson whenever I get a chance and all I want is help with fundamentals; stroke, stance and grip...If I still need help with these things I assume that the SL-2 and SL-5's need it more. It's strange to see them looking for someone who will show them how to go six rails and make a ball when even, or especially, the best players are still working on the basics. I would think they would figure it out. They act like it's an insult to go over these basics and pressure instructors to teach things they are a long way from mastering.

I am taking my little blond wife to the Kentucky Derby the first week of May and, in exchange, she will accompany me to the Derby City Classic next year. Hey, I'll fly or drive to Cincy to to play in a roll out tournament!

I sent "Balabuska's Nickel" to Spiderman this morning. He should have it a few days and forward it to you when he has finished.

eg8r
04-01-2003, 03:02 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I would really like to see some of the top pros run 13+ racks straight without a problem. That to me a is a pro. That to me defines a top player. Even 10 racks straight of 9 ball would impress me. This is something I never see on ESPN, not even by Efren. <hr /></blockquote> Are you saying you do not think Effren is a Pro. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

SpiderMan
04-01-2003, 05:08 PM
The first time I saw 9-ball played it was to push out rules. It seemed strange, each guy nudging the cueball a little until one thought he could make a shot.

Then I stopped playing for a number of years, and when I came back to pool the 9-ball rules were Texas Express. I'm not sure which set of rules could be more maddening.

SpiderMan

q4summit
04-01-2003, 10:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I would really like to see some of the top pros run 13+ racks straight without a problem. That to me a is a pro. That to me defines a top player. Even 10 racks straight of 9 ball would impress me. This is something I never see on ESPN, not even by Efren. <hr /></blockquote> Are you saying you do not think Effren is a Pro. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Not at all. But I expect better *shrug* maybe its just me. Perhaps 14.1 runouts are much easier than 9ball. If thats the case than I can easily see 150 and out being easier than 90 and out, rotation. Still, I can't see rotation being so much harder than called shots, 15 balls a rack. If Mosconi could do 150, why can't Efren? He's a top 10 ten ranked player, is he not? What made Mosconi so much better than the pros today with the new and improved methods of play, equipment, and tables? Sounds like top pros of today, Efren and others, should be running 150 and out easier than Mosconi and Greenleaf of the past.

But, maybe its just me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Marc

Ken
04-02-2003, 06:43 AM
It's hard to compare straight pool in the past with the game today. Mosconi played a lot, probably several times a week in exhibition matches and a lot of tournaments. Today Efren might play once a year. Watching a nine ball player playing straight is a bit strange. They take a lot of hard shots that you wouldn't see Mosconi have to shoot. I have a tape where Efren needed two balls and hit the break shot so soft that he had to bank to win the game. No problem.

The game is easier today with the very fast cloth. Barely touching the rack will break the rack enough to keep the run going. The tighter pockets on some tables can make the game tougher so it depends on the table.

I've heard the 5x10s had tight poskets. I used to play on them but I don't remember. The 4 1/2x9s certainly were loose and I don't see why the larger tables would be tighter.
KenCT

Fred Agnir
04-02-2003, 07:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ken:</font><hr> I've heard the 5x10s had tight poskets. <hr /></blockquote>I think tight pockets and table size are independent of each other. Smith's Billiards in Springfield, MA, the longest contiuously run pool hall in the USA (the world) has had 5 x 10's for quite a while (Brunswicks from some World's Fair). They may have recently got rid of them. The pockets weren't any tighter than any other table. They weren't buckets either. They were just pockets.

Fred

Deeman
04-02-2003, 08:03 AM
Fred,

You are right. I have played on 10 footers that were tight as a drum (Blytheville, Arkansas circa 1970). Only 14.1 and action 9 ball were played on them and I never saw anything short of a snooker table harder to make a ball on. I also remember one in Amarillo, Texas that had buckets. I could hit two feet up from the rail on a hard shot and still make it. The only thing unusual I remember about the bigger tables was that the balls had so much space, you didn't have to worry as much about avoiding other balls. In a way, they may have been, for that reason, a little easier for 14.1.

Ken
04-02-2003, 08:11 AM
Fred, I would assume that the old Brunswicks probably had about the same size pockets on both tables. Some have claimed that the 5x10s were tighter but I wonder about that. I haven't seen one in years. I played on a convertible recently that was set up for billiards and never saw the pool rails on it. That table is no longer in use and I'd like to acquire it. It was purchased for about $1,000. Unfortunately I don't have room for two tables. I'm still tempted to put one in storage.

I don't remember tight pockets on any table back in the early 60's except the snooker tables. I don't think I stepped into a pool room again until the late 90's. Clearly a wasted youth. I'll stop in Smith's the next time I'm in the area and see what they have (if I can find it, no listing on Yahoo maps, found it on Playpool, however).
KenCT

Tom_In_Cincy
04-02-2003, 10:50 AM
Deeman,

I just remembered.. (old age I guess) but most Ring Games are still using Roll-out rules.. NO BIH.. except in the kitchen on scratches.

Its still around... just not as popular as it was.