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03-22-2002, 01:18 PM
After reading Tom Ross' article in the April BD I'm uncertain as to whether he was recommending that you should focus on the cue ball or the object ball during your actual shot (as opposed to warm-up strokes). I used to look at the object ball during my shot, but recently I have been focusing on the exact point on the cue ball that I want to contact with the cue tip. This has really helped with the accuracy of my long shots, but if the other method is preferable I want to switch back now before I get too comfortable.

Any thoughts/recommendations out there?

cheesemouse
03-22-2002, 01:30 PM
jingle,
I haven't read the article you mention but I don't think there's any doubt that in the final act of hitting the cue ball the eyes are focused on the object ball.

03-22-2002, 01:45 PM
I agree with Cheesemouse, except to say that when jacked up over a ball, it is sometimes very useful to look at the cueball last. It prevents any unnecessary, slight english from turning into full-blown swerve.

- Steve

03-22-2002, 02:05 PM
although i see the o.b. last on most shots, there are some professionals, scott lee comes to mind, who are big on looking at the c.b. last on all, yes, all, shots. i just mention this to say that there are 2 schools of thought.

dan

JimS
03-22-2002, 02:12 PM
Oh Boy! Here we go. I've seen these threads mushroom before because I think that Randy G. teaches the cb last thing too..or am I remembering incorrectly?

03-22-2002, 02:23 PM
Maybe a Randy G. post is what got me started looking at the cue ball last; I don't remember for sure but I know I read it somewhere in the last 2-3 months so I started trying it. Like I said, it seems to have helped with my long shots, but this could just be temporary, and I want to use the technique that will be most beneficial to my game over the long run.

Thanks for everyone's input so far....keep those posts coming!

Ralph S.
03-22-2002, 03:53 PM
I firmly believe in focusing on the ob last as this is the way i was taught. JMO Ralph S.

Kato
03-22-2002, 04:28 PM
Object ball. I don't think I could do it any other way. Especially since Voodoo made me stop shooting like a "bobble-head doll".

Kato

PoolFan
03-22-2002, 04:33 PM
I agree with Steve. I believe that for most shots focusing on the object ball last is the way to go. There are shots that are more beneficial to focus on the cue ball - shots that require you to jack up like over a ball or off the rail and shots where the cue ball is on the rail and I only have a small portion of the ball to hit.

If you find that you have more success focusing on the cue ball then go right ahead. If it works don't stop, but I would say that in the long run focusing on the object ball last will make more successful.

jjinfla
03-22-2002, 04:42 PM
I think it is just a matter of preference and which you started out and which way makes you the most comfortable. Because when all is said and done, after you have the shot all lined up, you can close your eyes and make the shot. Jake~~~mostly uses OB last, but looks at CB last on some draws with english to the rail.

Rod
03-22-2002, 05:03 PM
Jingle, I'm sure the vote will easily go to, looking at the o/b last. I guess it really depends on how we started or was taught. Yes you need to make a decision, but in the mean time don't shoot long shots one way and short another.
IMO that's a good way to confuse your mind, and your
pre-shot routine. I play o/b last, except for those special shots already mentioned.

Drake
03-22-2002, 05:21 PM
Object ball Last!!! Unless jumping or breaking.

03-22-2002, 05:28 PM
For short and normal distances, focus on the object ball, quick look at the CB then a quick look at the OB then fire. For long shots, look at the OB, then cocentrate on the CB, make sure
you only look back to the OB if you want to change your shot or to verify your CB trajectory, otherwise, never look back.

Tom_In_Cincy
03-22-2002, 06:13 PM
I had this very same question for a very long time. I finally went to a Pro tournament in the early 80s and made it a point to watch the Pros eye movements. The eyebrows are the key. Eyebrows up.. looking at the OB, Eyebrows down, looking a the cue ball. The final view was about 50-50, OB or CB. but mostly OB for long shots.

I think the most important aspect is the checking of the alignment between the cue ball and OB, at least 3 times. Many good players will always do this.

Remember, it is very difficult to look at the OB all the time... especially if you're jacked up on the rail..

03-22-2002, 10:00 PM
Sorry Jim, Object ball last......randyg

Sid_Vicious
03-22-2002, 10:16 PM
To say OB or the CB last ALWAYS is foolish if you want to figure where "your" game is...sid~~~gottsta hittem as you gets-um, and walkin' up on the CB just dictates it's attention in many cases

Sid_Vicious
03-22-2002, 10:28 PM
That's right Tom, it is hard to look at anything for long. That is why I think the zone is so difficult...you flow as you play well and you don't concentrate as far as to what the last ball focused on was. Does the zone really remind anybody of what they looked at last? Bet not...sid

03-23-2002, 04:30 AM
I wonder if anyone's thought about or heard about how the height of one's stance might affect this question.....It seems to me that for those who shoot from a very low stance that it would be easier to focus on the object ball last while feeling the cueball in their periferal vision..... those who shoot from a higher stance can actually lose sight of the cueball completely if they focus entirely on the object ball, perhaps making a slight miss-hit on the white one more likely.....Jack White shoots almost standing up and he swears by a cueball last approach.....

just an idea....

Carl in SoCal

Rod
03-23-2002, 05:01 AM
Actually Carl I think exactly the opposite, but I doubt it makes any difference. Your pre-shot and address takes care of where you hit whitie. IMO it's more difficult to see the o/b down low because the c/b is in the way. Personally I like the aerial view standing up and looking at the o/b last. I've met and played with Jack years ago. Scott Lee who hasn't visited us lately, took over Jack's show.
Scott also looks and teaches the c/b last. I think it has a lot more to do with how we learned or were taught.

03-23-2002, 05:14 AM
You have to be looking at your final target with it's intended line of travel.Exceptions would be combinations and when you need to raise the butt of the cue for not so common shots.

jjinfla
03-23-2002, 06:22 AM
The next question is: When you miss a shot, were you looking at the CB or OB last? Jake~~~likes to watch the OB last and until the CB hits it to see if I hit the right spot. I also think doing this keeps me down on the shot.

Mikey
03-26-2002, 03:21 PM
I look at the object ball when I pull the trigger, but I will tell you this- when I am not hitting the cue ball where I want to, my practice routine will involve looking at the cue ball last. A few hours of this and It helps me get back on track.---Mikey

Rod
03-26-2002, 03:46 PM
Mikey, you might want someone, like an instructor, to check your alignment. That will get you on track with cue ball contact, and keep you there. Then you can spend those hours playing, practice, drills, looking at o/b last etc.

03-26-2002, 07:44 PM
Even though this topic has been discussed before here, this is proving to be an interesting thread. If I have it right based on Randy G's Cue-tech school teaching, not only is it absolutely critical that you be looking at the OB last starting (at the very latest) sometime during the pause at the end of the backstroke, but the individual eye pattern back and forth between the OB and CB during the pre-shot strokes leading in to the final stroke needs to be consistently the same everytime - just like the entire pre-shot ritual should be the same.

When you start sneaking extra looks (more than your normal pattern) just before and during the stroke, it's because the brain has not "locked in" on the shot and is in panic state and desperately searching for more information. If you stray from your normal CB/OB eye pattern during the stroke it's usually too late, and chances will increase drastically that (unless you get lucky) the shot results will not be favorable. It is in those cases when we need to have the discipline and patience to stand up and start the entire pre-shot routine over again. - Chris in NC

Doctor_D
03-26-2002, 07:47 PM
Good evening:

After my warm ups, I focus exclusively on the object ball.

Dr. D.

Scott Lee
03-27-2002, 10:09 PM
Chris..."Absolutely critical" to look at the OB last? I have to disagree! Many here know why I teach looking at the CB at contact. Others have looked at the perspective, and tried it for themselves...some with success, some not! As I have always said, it is less critical WHERE you look last, then HOW you swing the cuestick through the CB! I agree completely with the rest of your post, about preshot routine and eye movements being exactly the same every time.

Scott

Barbara
03-27-2002, 10:33 PM
Without having read 99% of the other posts (just got home from work and my brain is fried, can you smell it? E-ee-ewww!) I have to say that Chris in NC knows what RandyG just taught him in pool school and it made a real difference in my game, but I have to apply it one step further. Randy, if you're reading this post, correct me where I err.

I learned to focus on both the OB and CB. I focus on the CB when I'm in a warm-up stroke forward and my tip is up next to the CB where I'm going to hit the CB, and then I focus on the OB when my warm-up stroke is the back position. My final focus would be on the OB except when in certain situations. If I'm masseing a shot, my focus should be on the CB, the spot I expect to hit. When I'm kicking at a rail to an OB, my final focus will be that spot on the rail. And when I'm just shooting at the OB, my final focus is the OB.

This works for me. I know that Scott Lee advocates looking at the CB last and if I had remembered that fact during a brain cell-letting that is known as the Expo, I would've asked him to demonstrate that for me to just get a feeling for it. Oh well, maybe next year.

Barbara~~~killing the last of them with a little help from Mr. Smirnoff...

But they deserve to die... after all, they are the weakest ones, right..? Natural selection and all that....

03-27-2002, 10:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Chris in NC:</font><hr> not only is it absolutely critical that you be looking at the OB last but the individual eye pattern back and forth between the OB and CB during the pre-shot strokes leading in to the final stroke needs to be consistently the same everytime - just like the entire pre-shot ritual should be the same.

- Chris in NC <hr></blockquote>

excellent, chris. over the last few years i've worked on that from just an intuitive standpoint. seemed that, as often as not, when i missed, it was because i was not hitting the c.b. where i thought i would. wound up exactly where you and randy are with the shifting back and forth, in pattern, with the o.b. on the finish.

one thing i've been doing some good with lately is visualizing the o.b. and the c.b. heading exactly as they are supposed to on contact. that positive reinforcment of seeing the shot go in the hole seems to help some.

dan

03-30-2002, 04:36 AM
Looking at the cueball last is sort of like driving a car but focusing on the steering wheel instead of the road ahead.

You have to be looking at the object ball last.The object ball is your final intended target.

03-30-2002, 10:32 AM
Scott, does it matter how straight you swing the cue-stick through the ball if you are not on target - I think not. With all due respect for your reputation and credentials as an instructor and performer, your advocating looking at the CB last during the stroke is simply not supported by a large majority of all the other BCA master level instructors and high level players. Maybe you can get away with it on the shorter shots (distance between CB &amp; OB), but it amazes me how you think it could be accurate on longer shots. - Chris in NC

Tom_In_Cincy
03-30-2002, 08:28 PM
Chris,
IMO, Looking at the OB last is what the majority of better players do.. but the majority isn't all that much.. Maybe 60% OB last and 40% CB last. Long shots its almost always OB last.
I say this after making it a point to watch the Pros play and observing this ritual. The most important thing to do is look between the OB and CB as many times as it takes to be comfortable in your aim decision. OB or CB LAST, is not as important as the decision checking.. I would hope that we all agree on this aiming technique.

EZMark
03-31-2002, 12:13 AM
Earl Strickland looks at the cue ball last there is more than one school of thought.Thnx EZMark

TomBrooklyn
03-31-2002, 01:02 AM
For accurate aiming of a pistol or rifle, the front sight should be in focus, and the rear sight and target should be visible but will appear somewhat out of focus.

If this is analogous to shooting pool, perhaps the cue ball could be considered like the rear sight, the object ball like the front sight, and the pocket like the target. This would indicate the main focus should be on the object ball.

Huh? FWIW.

Tom_In_Cincy
03-31-2002, 04:26 PM
Tom.. I've heard this analogy before and it was shot down.. no stroke involved and you can adjust "sights".. LOL (sorry for the pun)

04-01-2002, 09:22 PM
Chris...I posted a reply to this before, but apparently it did not come up...so here it is again! 500 years ago EVERYONE was absolutely CERTAIN the Earth was flat! ONE person was CERTAIN it wasn't...and that ONE person completely changed the face of history! Just because MOST other qualified and recognized instructors feel that OB last is the correct way to go does not necessarily mean it is the holy grail! If you ask many people, the response is something like, "because that's the way it has always been done!" I choose to think differently, and it DOES work well for me. Remember that I also learned OB last, and played that way as a pro tournament player and gambler for 10 years. When I began teaching 22 years ago, I re-evaluated a concept that Jack White had espoused, and talked to him about it at length...deciding that it had some merit. Since then I have had a lot of success, both personally, and with my students in teaching CB last. Since it is such a momentary switch (happening at the last second before contact with CB), I don't really think it is that great of an issue...and definitely not as important as how the cuestick is delivered through the CB (as I have said before). One of these days I will be in Boone, and I will demonstrate the technique to you on all manner of shots, be they short or long. You can watch my eye patterns and judge for yourself. All I ever ask of anyone is to look at pool with an open mind, and see other possibilities (even if they don't necessarily work for you)!
I know I am a pariah among BCA instructors on this small point...but the fact remains that I have several national champions to my credit, that learned this technique!

Scott Lee

04-01-2002, 10:44 PM
It is without a doubt the OB. It is the same on combination shots too. You first look to see where they will be hit, but the ball that hits the first in the chain is the one you look at while shooting. whenever you point at something with your finger, you look at what you're pointing at, not at your fingernail.

04-01-2002, 10:48 PM
Scott, I surely admire your resolve on this issue in which you stand nearly alone in your views among your peers. I do know that you have greatly helped countless players with your instruction, and I'm sure you don't force your students to adhere to this method.

Scott, in all due respect, the fact that you say you switch back (with your eyes) from the OB to the CB at the last second during the stroke before contact I would find extremely confusing for the brain to process. Speaking for myself, I simply cannot do it. - Chris in NC

04-01-2002, 11:23 PM
It is alot simpler than all of you are making it. If your shot visualisation, alignment, and pre-shot routine are in order all you have to do is step into the shot. I think of it much as stepping into a picture that has already been taken mentally. If you step into your pre-disposed position properly you can almost look at the wall above the OB and still pocket it. However, since at crunch time our attention would obviously be on the point on the object ball or the point on the rail. I truly find it hard to beleive that anyone who calls themselves a master of any kind in pool could teach eye-training on the cue ball. Not to insult fellow master and Montanan Scott Lee, but maybe this technique could explain his problem. "Those who can do and those who can't teach." Sorry, but I have an affliction with calling things the way I see them.

04-02-2002, 07:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> Remember that I also learned OB last, and played that way as a pro tournament player and gambler for 10 years.

...but the fact remains that I have several national champions to my credit, that learned this technique!

Scott Lee <hr></blockquote>

What success did you have as a pro tournament player Mr. Lee and could you please name a few of the national champions that you taught ?

Thanks in advance

04-02-2002, 08:46 AM
Thanks to all for the great feedback. Since starting this thread I have been reading the postings and thinking more about it, and have another thought/question for those who look at the OB last. (primarily because I still seem to shoot better viewing the CB last) OK, generally speaking, doesn't it make the most sense to keep your eye on the taget that involves motion, as opposed to the one that is stationary? In other words, the OB isn't going anywhere, once you line up the shot the only motion involves the cue and assuming you are aligned properly you will achieve the desired results if you hit the correct point on the CB at the correct speed. So why wouldn't you want to focus on that point of the CB? Why doesn't a golfer look at the target they are aiming for on the green while they swing? Their swing/stroke should be conditioned for consistency just like a pool player's, right? I think the reason they don't is because the target on the green (like the OB) isn't going anywhere, the only motion involves the club/ball.

I guess I am in the minority for now (like Mr. Lee who I hope sees this). If my game begins to suffer, or I see golfer start to focus on their target while swinging, I may go back to my old technique of viewing the OB last, otherwise I'll have to classify myself as a CB last player.

04-02-2002, 01:00 PM
I think the answer lies in how high you stand. It's physiological.

A golfer doesn't look at the fairway when he's hitting a shot off the tee because that would hinder his armswing. Picture yourself standing erect and then twisting your neck towards the fairway. Your neck muscles pull your shoulder muscles away from the direction you want your arms to move in striking the golf ball.

It's the same with pool. If you stand erect at the table, as with Jack White who advocates CB last, the only way to sight the object ball, particularly on a long shot would be to physically move your head in that direction. Then you are creating a strain in your neck that is contrary to the action in your body that is about to occur below you. It would make sense to focus on the cue ball last in that case.

However, if you stand low at the table, you can sight the OB without moving your head and you have the benefit of being able to sight both the CB and OB with your head stationary.

I do believe that the OB should be last, and that the person who stands erect doesn't really have much choice but to look at the CB last, unless he's willing to allow his head position to contradict what his body is about to do.

Fran

Jay M
04-02-2002, 02:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> For accurate aiming of a pistol or rifle, the front sight should be in focus, and the rear sight and target should be visible but will appear somewhat out of focus.

If this is analogous to shooting pool, perhaps the cue ball could be considered like the rear sight, the object ball like the front sight, and the pocket like the target. This would indicate the main focus should be on the object ball.

Huh? FWIW. <hr></blockquote>

Ummm as a competition level marksman and former military sniper, I can speak on this one with a bit of authority. The idea behind the analogy is a good one, but when firing for record you focus on the target, not the sight. At the highest levels, you are only aware of the sights peripherally.

Ahem, anyhow, the final focus doesn't matter as long as it is consistent. I have a shot that I pull out occasionally (when I want to make someone buy me a drink) where I place a ball frozen to the first diamond on the long rail and place the cue a few inches off the opposite corner's long rail somewhere up near the side pocket. I then put my right hand, with the cue, behind my back. I sight the shot one handed and then put my left hand over my eyes, take a few warmup strokes and shoot the three rail kick into the corner.

My point is that I do this with something like 60% consistency if I know the table (which is why I ask for 3 tries as a part of the proposition). The reason it works is because I know the mechanical part of the stroke. Once I have the line, it doesn't matter that I am focussing on the palm of my hand because the stroke is consistent.

Remember the famous "look-away" shot from the color of money? We've all done that at one time or another for the effect. What makes that shot work? Muscle memory...plain and simple.

Do whatever works for you and don't sweat the small stuff.

Jay M

Scott Lee
04-03-2002, 01:13 AM
I have NEVER made ANY claim to being a champion player. My highest finishes in a national tournament were 5th and 3rd. NONE of the BCA Master instructors make any claims of having been top-flight professional tournament players, although we all have experience being under combat in those tournaments. Whoever made the ridiculous comment about "those that can, DO, and those that CAN'T teach" is, imo, closed-minded and would probably not benefit from a learning experience with a qualified BCA instructor. I will say this again (for the 100th time), the best teachers in most sports were NOT the best competitors. Just because you are a champion does not mean that you have the patience and communication skills to be a competent teacher. Certainly there are those champions out there who are excellent teachers as well (Ms. Fisher comes to mind immediately), but they are in the minority, as ego gets in the way much of the time! As for my students names...they are in the record books...here's three: Jane Bartram; 1982 ACUI National Collegiate Champion, 1993 VNEA Womens 8-ball AND 9-ball National Champion (runnerup in Scotch Doubles the same year); Kevin Carlberg; 1995 ACUI National Collegiate Champion, 1993 VNEA National 9-ball runnerup;
Shirley Weathers; 1984 National Collegiate Champion. If you have the mentality of "if you can't beat me, you can't teach me!"...well then, good luck and continued success with your game! 'Nuff said!

Scott Lee

04-03-2002, 01:42 AM
I think that Fran Crimi Had the analogy right&lt; if you are upright you can only look at one at a time where if you are low on the stick you can see both the object ball and the cueball. Personally i am low on the stick but that isnt always good. Actually i think i play best when i am about 6 or so inches above the stick. Sometimes being to low can hinder you from seeing the intended line to the pocket, which helps me i think. I think you have to look at the OB last, to see the exact point on the OB that you are hitting, and get that tunnel vision to that exact spot on the ball. Usually when i am playing my best i notice i am totally focussed on the OB. Really after you figure out where you need to hit the CB to get it to go where you want to, you shouldnt have to look at it any more. It seems to me that when i am missing shots, particularly long shots, its because i am looking at the CB too much, and not trusting where i am going to hit the CB. I have talked to people who feel they must look at the cueball last, and i tell them, hey whatever works for you keep doing it.

Lewie

Rod
04-03-2002, 02:25 AM
Hum, I'm not so sure of that Fran. Your eyes move without moving your head. Just as they do when you assume any position or stance. If you can see the c/b then sighting the o/b shouldn't be a problem. By that I mean you look down at the c/b and let your eyes raise for the o/b. Your eyes cover a large field. I went with Jack to do an exibition, years ago. As I recall he did stand fairly upright. He is also fairly tall, compared to me! Would this apply to tall people? I play very upright and have no problem with looking at the o/b last. But then again I have a low center of gravity, or vertically challenged as some say. I'm trying to figure out what I missed here, because in this case I think it's easier to look forward at the o/b instead of looking down at the c/b. But then I never tried it from altitude!

04-03-2002, 03:17 AM
Good Point, Rod. I'm sure you could really force your head to not move if you're standing upright. But then look what you would have to do with your eyes to compensate: You'd have to roll them all the way up and all the way back down to see the OB and CB. Lots of up and down eye movement. But when you're stance is low, your head is low too, and you're eyes are level, with minimum eye movement as you look between both balls, at least compared to standing erect.

I remember Minnesotta Fats who stood very upright. There was a lot of head movement going on as he looked back and forth. I don't recall what he looked at last, though.

Fran

04-03-2002, 02:19 PM
This is something I've been working on a bit lately, as I have made a change in my game recently.

I posted in another thread here how my eyes have changed slightly, and I am not longer completely ambiocular. I am slightly right eye dominant. Which means to be accurate, I have to line up my cue differently than before.

It has been difficult making the change, as it is all too easy for the cue to drift back to where it was before.

So I've made some changes in what I am looking at during my shot routine. I am looking more at the cueball than I was before, checking to see that I am cue'd correctly at the cueball and that I am aligned and stroking properly. I of course also look at the object ball during the warm-up strokes, to check my aim.

Now this is really different from what I was doing before:
For my final stroke, when I pause my cue at the cueball, I am looking at the cueball. Again, verifying that I am aligned correctly and cue'd at the right point on the cueball. I keep looking at the cueball as I draw back, verifying that I am not letting my cue alignment drift in during my backswing. When I pause at the end of my backswing, I switch my eys to the object ball, focusing on where I want the cueball to go. Then I stroke forward and strike the cueball.

Before, I only looked at the object ball during the final stroke process.

This has helped me out quite a bit, but I don't know yet if that is because I am making a change, and need some "extra" care to avoid letting the cue drift back to where it was before, or if this is a good permanent change. But for now, it is helping quite a bit.

04-03-2002, 03:10 PM
Hi Fran, another example comes to mind regarding players that don't get way down is Dallas West. He is about 1 to 1 1/2' above the surface. He moves his eyes back and forth and then shoots with the OB last. His high run is over 400 balls in 14.1 so it can't be too bad an approach. I've studied both methods that is, low and not so low shooting position. I am tall (6' 3") and getting low is very tiring if the hips are much above the table. Also, the closed bridge (first finger) blocks the view causing me to use the open bridge more often. I keep going back and forth anyway, but I think for the most part I pocket balls more consistantly by bending only from the waist to a position parallel to the table. Because my hips are above the table I'm left about 1 to 1 1/2' above to surface. For me this is really low! I've read that because women have shorter arms they tend to be very low on the table, then there's Vivian.
Oh well, good to see you posting.

Best, Ron.

SpiderMan
04-03-2002, 03:24 PM
Fran,

It's actually the opposite with me. I play with my head fairly low over the cue, and it's more of a neck strain to look up at the OB (but I do it anyway). If I stood more erect, I wouldn't have to crane my head as much. Maybe if I was short I could be low over the stick and my natural gaze would be more forward, but I'm 6'3" so when I'm down on the shot my face would be to the felt if I didn't raise my head and bend my neck.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I think the answer lies in how high you stand. It's physiological.

A golfer doesn't look at the fairway when he's hitting a shot off the tee because that would hinder his armswing. Picture yourself standing erect and then twisting your neck towards the fairway. Your neck muscles pull your shoulder muscles away from the direction you want your arms to move in striking the golf ball.

It's the same with pool. If you stand erect at the table, as with Jack White who advocates CB last, the only way to sight the object ball, particularly on a long shot would be to physically move your head in that direction. Then you are creating a strain in your neck that is contrary to the action in your body that is about to occur below you. It would make sense to focus on the cue ball last in that case.

However, if you stand low at the table, you can sight the OB without moving your head and you have the benefit of being able to sight both the CB and OB with your head stationary.

I do believe that the OB should be last, and that the person who stands erect doesn't really have much choice but to look at the CB last, unless he's willing to allow his head position to contradict what his body is about to do.

Fran <hr></blockquote>

04-03-2002, 04:01 PM
Barbara makes randyg proud. We should pay just as much attention to the cue-ball as we do the object-ball. There is a ritual (eye pattern) that our students learn. It is natural to focus on the target (not the tool) last. This eye pattern is based on their personal rhythm. Barbara still remembers her routine, good job!.....randyg

04-03-2002, 04:04 PM
Chris is a great student.....randyg

04-03-2002, 04:06 PM
Scott, I think you are out numbered. Object ball last.....your friend..randyg

04-03-2002, 06:53 PM
You may feel more of a strain when you stand low because you're tall, but your head alignment is more compatable with your armswing when you're down lower and your head isn't working against your body as it is when you're standing taller.

When you're standing tall at the table, the activity is occurring below you as opposed to eye level when you're down lower.

Fran

04-03-2002, 06:56 PM
Hi Ron,

Dallas West hates long shots. Ask him. Hell tell you. Well, maybe he won't tell you, now that I think about it. Haha!


Fran

04-03-2002, 09:55 PM
I wish I could ask him, I would give my first born to take lessons from him. Sigh...

Best, Ron.

Troy
04-03-2002, 10:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fran Crimi:</font><hr>
I remember Minnesotta Fats who stood very upright. There was a lot of head movement going on as he looked back and forth. I don't recall what he looked at last, though.

Fran <hr></blockquote>

The bottle......... (Sorry, couldn't resist..... /ccboard/images/icons/frown.gif )

Scott Lee
04-04-2002, 01:13 AM
Anonymous...Gee, I wasn't aware I HAD a problem! What's YOURS? LOL Why don't you tell us who you really are, so we can examine YOUR game under a microscope? LOL You say you are a Montanan, so I certainly must know you (and I have suspicion already who you probably are...no matter though)!

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
04-04-2002, 01:17 AM
Randy...That's okay! LOL...still doesn't make it "critical" or the ONLY way to shoot...OB last, that is! We'll have to get together and debate this on the table together. I look forward to that! Remember, I am NOT the one saying CB last is the ONLY way to go...just a different approach, with a logical reasoning behind it...that happens to work well for me, and some others!

Scott

04-04-2002, 01:22 AM
I know you were just kidding, Troy, but I got to know the Fat Man pretty well and I never saw him take a drink. He was quite a guy when he wasn't putting on a show. A real giver in a lot of ways. A lot of people resented him for supposedly stealing the Minnesotta Fats character from Tevis' book, but he did give something back to the game for about 30 years, and he was one of the best people-reader I ever saw. He'd have a person pegged in about 10 seconds. He once told me he hated all those pompus a## primadonnas who were at the top of their game and acted like they were God's gift to the human race. He was always in their faces and used to get them all pissed off at him. The rest of us would sit back and enjoy the show while their faces got all red.

Fran

04-04-2002, 03:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr> You say you are a Montanan, so I certainly must know you (and I have suspicion already who you probably are...no matter though)!Scott Lee <hr></blockquote>

well, scott, since there's only 3 people in montana, and i guess you're sure you ain't him you should have it narrowed down pretty good!

dan...mr. helpful.

Chris Cass
04-04-2002, 04:04 PM
Hi Fran,
He might have been refering to Dallas. He can put'em away. LOL
Regards,
C.C.

04-04-2002, 04:30 PM
SCOTT: I agree 100%. To each their own. Looking forward to our next meeting.....randyg

Scott Lee
04-04-2002, 07:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Mike:</font><hr> This is something I've been working on a bit lately, as I have made a change in my game recently.

I posted in another thread here how my eyes have changed slightly, and I am not longer completely ambiocular. I am slightly right eye dominant. Which means to be accurate, I have to line up my cue differently than before.

It has been difficult making the change, as it is all too easy for the cue to drift back to where it was before.

So I've made some changes in what I am looking at during my shot routine. I am looking more at the cueball than I was before, checking to see that I am cue'd correctly at the cueball and that I am aligned and stroking properly. I of course also look at the object ball during the warm-up strokes, to check my aim.

Now this is really different from what I was doing before:
For my final stroke, when I pause my cue at the cueball, I am looking at the cueball. Again, verifying that I am aligned correctly and cue'd at the right point on the cueball. I keep looking at the cueball as I draw back, verifying that I am not letting my cue alignment drift in during my backswing. When I pause at the end of my backswing, I switch my eys to the object ball, focusing on where I want the cueball to go. Then I stroke forward and strike the cueball.

Before, I only looked at the object ball during the final stroke process.

This has helped me out quite a bit, but I don't know yet if that is because I am making a change, and need some "extra" care to avoid letting the cue drift back to where it was before, or if this is a good permanent change. But for now, it is helping quite a bit. <hr></blockquote>

Mike...You have just aptly described the exact same process that I use myself and teach to others. The only difference is that I keep the focus on the CB through the stroke! The way you are doing it is excellent, and definitely is responsible for your improvement! Being able to verify that you are hitting EXACTLY where you are aiming (by focusing on the CB while the cue is in motion) is strategic to better cueball accuracy. This affects all other parts of the game, including pocketing percentage, position play accuracy, and forced or unforced errors. Congratulations! You have discovered an easy way to improve your game, and can continue to improve much more quickly than you might have without this technique! Good luck with your game.

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
04-04-2002, 07:04 PM
Fran...Does ANYBODY really LIKE long shots? I think NOT! LOL

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
04-04-2002, 07:11 PM
Fran...Amen on Fats!

Scott

04-04-2002, 07:53 PM
Yep, it's made a big improvement. Dramatically increased shooting accuracy in just a couple of days.

I have changed it slightly, as I have worked with it more. Now I move my eyes from the cueball to the object ball just as I am about to finish my backswing, as opposed to waiting until the backswing is finished. I needed just a LITTLE more time to switch and focus than I was getting with waiting until the backswing is focused.

The way I see it, this (referring to focusing on the cue ball more than I was before, not to what I just said about shifting focus slightly earlier than I was the other day) is more effective because, once aligned and down on the shot, the aim between my head and the balls doesn't really change. As long as I'm lined up correctly and my body is still, that stays the same.

But what CAN change a lot during the shooting process is the cue's relationship to the line of the shot and the cueball. Because it is moving! Like I said earlier, it is WAY too easy to let that cue drift to an improper alignment and/or improper spot on the cueball. So I'm paying more attention to it than I was before.

I still need to glance at the object ball a few times in the warmup process, to make sure the aiming is still correct. Like I said before, since my body isn't moving (only my forearm is moving), it should be the same. And I still focus on the object ball right before I pause and deliver the stroke.

But since the cue is what's moving, and the object ball is what I am hitting, I am focusing on them more than I was before.

One other thing that this is helping me to do is to smooth out my stroke, and force me to pause. I always try to have a smooth stroke and a nice pause and the backswing, but often when I am intimidated by a shot, my stroke gets more jerky and I don't pause like I would like to. This process of switching focus from the cue ball to the object ball forces me to make a nice, smooth pause in my stroke. I HAVE to pause, so I give myself the time to switch focus.

Interestingly enough, I saw at her website today that Allison Fisher does something similar. At least, that's my impression in reading it.

Her web site says the following:
Q. Can you tell me why you pause for almost a full second before you begin the forward acceleration of your stroke and is it worthwhile to add this to my stroke?

A. That is to get my eyes focused on the object ball.

I didn't do it or come to this conclusion because of her website. I happened to read it after making this change and realizing that it was helping me pause and have a smooth delivery.

I know Allison, and have talked in person and over e-mail a number of times, but interestingly enough, almost never about Pool. It's more "How's life? What's new?" type stuff. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Troy
04-04-2002, 08:37 PM
My apologies to the memory of Mr. Rudolf Wanderone and to any family members and friends I may have inadvertantly offended.

My jest, as it were, was aimed at the character in The Hustler.

Troy

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I know you were just kidding, Troy, but I got to know the Fat Man pretty well and I never saw him take a drink. He was quite a guy when he wasn't putting on a show. A real giver in a lot of ways. A lot of people resented him for supposedly stealing the Minnesotta Fats character from Tevis' book, but he did give something back to the game for about 30 years, and he was one of the best people-reader I ever saw. He'd have a person pegged in about 10 seconds. He once told me he hated all those pompus a## primadonnas who were at the top of their game and acted like they were God's gift to the human race. He was always in their faces and used to get them all pissed off at him. The rest of us would sit back and enjoy the show while their faces got all red.

Fran <hr></blockquote>

04-04-2002, 09:23 PM
I do, Scott. Now all I have to do is figure out how to make 'em. Ha!

Fran

04-05-2002, 03:16 AM
You make the statements then my inquisitivness gets the best of me.

The question was for your "pro tournament" experience against better players not so-so amateurs Scott ... and the "national champions" that you taught are all kids and mostly female? Nothing wrong with this but have you any endorsments from 'name' players?

Please excuse my curiosity as your posts too often make bold statements and I'm just a guy who questions authority.Make no bones about it,I most certainly think you are a credit to the sport and we certainly need more like yourself,Dr.Cue,Mike Massey,Randy G,and Fran.In this respect of dedicating your lives to better pool,I admire you guys greatly.Keep up the good work.BS

Scott Lee
04-05-2002, 07:05 PM
Anonymous..."So-so amateurs"? Kids??? Jane Bartram is almost 40, and is a legit champion (or don't you consider the pros that win the VNEA pros?...all they do is play pool for a living! Shirley Weathers is 76...hardly a kid! LOL
Why is it SO important that I have Earl or Efren or Alison as a student to be "legit" in your mind...not that I even care? LOL

Scott Lee

Scott Lee

04-19-2002, 03:03 PM
Dear Jingle,
I apologize for any confusion concerning where I believe one's focus belongs on a pool shot. Since the object ball, or the precise spot that you want to hit on the object ball, is your target, I believe strongly that the shot should begin and end with your focus there. Make your stance with your eyes on the object ball to align yourself with the shot and, after the warm-ups with your eyes on the cue ball, move your eyes to the object ball and lock them there. Pause, with your eyes fixed on the object ball, take one stroke and shoot. To me it seems that looking at the cue ball on your last stroke would be like watching the dart come out of your hand when you throw it instead of looking at the spot on the board that you want to hit. In fact I think a player will enjoy greater success if he remembers to watch the object ball go into the pocket to ensure that his concern for the cue ball's travel does not cause a miss.

04-19-2002, 03:27 PM
Hello Jingle,
I replied a few minutes ago to your question but it showed as anonymous because I had registered; it was my first experience with the BB. I just wanted you to know that I took a personal interest in your question and will be happy to help with subsequent ones. Thanks.
TR

bell
04-19-2002, 06:52 PM
Amen Anon. I agree with you. Kicking this up a notch, I wonder how to more effectively focus on "that spot" on the object ball. The initial location of the "spot" is made standing up and the shooter needs to "refind" that spot after the warmup stroke while down on the shot with no particular markers on that smooth clean round ob.

stickman
04-19-2002, 10:22 PM
I have never shot this way, but I'm open to new ideas. I'm not sure it would make any difference, if at the last moment, I changed my view to the CB. It might take a little while to make the adjustment, but I won't knock something I've never tried or given a chance to work. I see some merit to the idea, in that you would surely see if your stroke was not true.

TomBrooklyn
04-20-2002, 09:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Drake:</font><hr> Object ball Last!!! Unless jumping or breaking. <hr></blockquote>I had not heard this before about breaking. Is the majority in agreement to look at the cue ball last when <font color=red>BREAKING?</font color=red>

04-20-2002, 10:04 AM
Hi Chris. You brought up a very good point obout eye patterns earlier and you certainly articulated the whole process very well. So why is it possible to make shots with your eyes closed? No last look at either cb or ob? Reason is with consistant preparation, and a repeteable stroke the shot then becomes pre-determined, and the cb-ob last debate becomes a mute point. The key is, imo, not in what's done last but rather what level of concentration and focus you bring to each opportunity. I simply see these two choices as a possible teaching aid. For instance, if a player has a bad habit of lifting his head on a shot or jumping up as it were, a regamine of "cb last" shooting could help keep them down on the shot. Conversly if a cb last player is slipping into a "pokey stroke" or not getting good action on the cue ball, maybe he's to CB fixated resulting in poor cantact and a shift to ob last thinking will allow for a cleaner stroke. Who knows.....just kinda thinking out loud here. Great topic though. St