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View Full Version : "weight" vs. integrity



heater451
03-22-2002, 07:18 PM
Does anyone feel that asking for a handicap is counter-productive to getting better at the game?

I mean, what's the motivation to increase your skills, if you make better players handicap themselves, so that your game is easier? And doesn't it make any actual growth (betterment) take longer?

Or, is it all about cash?

JimS
03-22-2002, 07:25 PM
It's been said by virtually "better" player that I've ever talked to or read that one of the best ways to get better is to play players who are better than you.

In order to do that, without just giving the stakes to them, the lessor player has to have some sort of weight. This also puts more pressure on the better player to play his best game. The pressure is on both now as the lessor player just could win if he really gets down and concentrates.

I think that making a good game increases the chances that both players will have more fun and improve more from the experience.

Then, go home and WORK to become better!!

Cuemage
03-22-2002, 07:27 PM
heater, I recently played a tournament where the director ranked me a 7 (but thought I was an 8) out of a possible 9. I told him an 8 would be just fine...b/c I know when I'm on my game, I will get out so givin up weight or games on the wire doesn't really bother my mindset for the match

a sidenote: I play for the love of the game...I can make better money NOT playin pool

The Cuemage

BillPorter
03-22-2002, 07:29 PM
Heater,

I see no loss of integrity in asking for weight from a better player. Why gamble when the odds are stacked against you? And BTW, in most matchups between a better player giving weight and a weaker player, the better player still wins. After all, which player is more likely to be shrewd about adjusting the weight? Also, the better player will be spending more time at the table, running balls and getting into or staying in stroke. The weaker player sits a waits and when he finally gets a shot it is with the pressure of knowing that a miss will probably cost the game. So the weaker player ends up playing below his normal speed while the stronger player is often free wheeling and confident. JIMO

PoolFan
03-22-2002, 07:41 PM
I don't believe that it's counter-productive to give or recieve weight.

I don't like to play in handicap tournaments and I'll often get into tournaments that are over my head. But when it comes to gambling, I'll give weight to make myself bear down. I'll get weight to even out the game. I still have to bear down to win and my opponent can earn his money. If it's to easy for him/her, their not going to give me their best game and that's what I'm looking for. I'll learn from their best game.

Although, I'm interested in a fair game. If anything I think the slight advantage should be on the better player's side. I don't mind losing to a better player as long as I'm getting a good lesson. Now, this is my point of view based on my objectives and goal of playing this great game. It's a hobby for me and I have a good paying job that doesn't require me to hustle anyone.

As for the money, there are players who are not necessarily trying to get better, just make money. That's fine and a whole other story.

Sid_Vicious
03-22-2002, 08:36 PM
Glad I read all the answers to this thread before posting, because I was about to say about the same thing as JimS. I play with a much stronger player than I and he doesn't believe in weight so I see that most of the time his game suffers due to my weaker game. Give me a closer chance and his tune point for perfection would improve(IMO.) We don't play for nuthin' but competition, just makes sense to put the test in place and advance on both ends of the spectrum. I've not strongly promoted this simply because I know what the attitude is on his part, but I certainly believe that it would be to my friend's benefit to give a spot and adjust as soon as some threshold was crossed. Bottom line today is that I value the experience to shoot a rack of pool with this player and I'll preserve that at most any cost,,,,racking isn't that much of a price after all is said and done, and some days I come alive and keep him in his chair.

Something else, integrity sound a lot like pride and expression. To me that sounds like "show off" and I mean that it induces lack of control sometimes. I'm not saying that anybody is cocky, but thinking you should stand on your own feet without a deserved spot is creeping up on that trait(AIMHO)...sid~~~believes self confidence and over confidence rides on a thin line

Q-guy
03-22-2002, 08:53 PM
I agree with you. Playing better players makes you a better player. Even if a word is not said the lesser player almost through a sort of osmosis will learn from the better player. How they move, the ease with which they run the balls. They show you it can be done and you feel you can do it also. Who doesn't play better after watching a good match. Imagine a steady diet of that positive influence. Playing and being around better players does more for your game then anything I could think of. Weight makes for a better game for both players.

Drake
03-22-2002, 10:39 PM
I've got to go against the grain on this one. If you want to screw your stick together and learn something, Play your opponent even. I'll be glad to play Efren some EVEN nine ball for 5 dollars a game!! Efren, like most of the top Professionals, will not play for 5 dollars a game. They want to play 10 ahead for at least 500.....This is when I start thinking about how much weight I need to win. Just my 2 cents worth...Drake.

Sid_Vicious
03-22-2002, 10:49 PM
Efren even, for a fish a game ? Sure, that's a no brainer for this player. That'd be an opportunity to find what my game really had in it for little expense, and simply a pleasure(imo)...sid~~~tossed cash in the event of playing top level stuff

03-23-2002, 03:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: PoolFan:</font><hr> If anything I think the slight advantage should be on the better player's side. I don't mind losing to a better player as long as I'm getting a good lesson. <hr></blockquote>

that really is the right way to look at it.

i give weight and i take weight. just part of life.

dan

Rod
03-23-2002, 04:43 AM
I don't think so, the better player will move on you and you probably won't get enough weight anyway. A smart player knows how much he can give up and still have some margin.
No matter what it ain't going to come easy, you have to earn it.

heater451
03-23-2002, 05:44 PM
First of all, thanks to all who have answered.

I can understand the giving up of weight by a better player will keep them from easing up, which will, in turn, cause the game to be just as hard, if not harder than a heads up game. That answers my question perfectly.

BTW, when I referred to integrity, I wasn't equating it with being overly prideful (and stubborn about it). I meant it in a kind of a "pay your dues"/"take your lumps" sort of way.

cheesemouse
03-23-2002, 06:53 PM
Heater451,
I liked JimS's answer when he said: <blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>I think that making a good game increases the chances that both players will have more fun and improve more from the experience.<hr></blockquote>
This fits in with what a mentor of mine said to me years ago. "You'd be amazed at how cheap the best players in town will play for, so, count your bullets before you leave the house, get weight that seems reasonable then quit talking and rack the balls." This advise has got me in some fun matches with some super players and for low digit chips. It once took Keith McCready three hours to beat me out of $100 not that he would ever remember it but I sure do /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif Good times for low wages.

03-23-2002, 07:15 PM
Hey cheese,
What was keith spotting you?

cheesemouse
03-23-2002, 07:18 PM
We were playing on a barbox and I got the call seven. $10 a rack.

Doctor_D
03-23-2002, 07:25 PM
Good evening:

In April of 2001 I competed in my first 9 Ball tournament with the North Eastern Women's Tour which is a sanctioned regional tour of the WPBA. There is NO handicap system and as such you play head to head with some of the best 9 Ball competitors in the region. Additionally, when competing in the "Open" State Championships, you will in all likelihood find yourself competing with the likes of Karen Corr, Julie Kelly, Dawn Hopkins, Fran Crimi and the like. Needless to say, in my humble opinion, it was my involvement with this level of competition that helped improve my game so rapidly.

Nothing Like Going from the Frying Pan into the Fire!

Dr. D.

cheesemouse
03-23-2002, 07:33 PM
Hey Doc,
The deep end of the pool is the only place to be. Keep at it. I have a friend that watched you play in Rhode Island, I think. He said you got a big heart, lots of desire and a good stroke. With that package it's just a matter of time.

Gayle in MD
03-24-2002, 11:59 AM
Well, I don't gamble, but in the league of course there is a handicapping system. Most of the time, though, I am not playing in the league, and play almost always against great players. This helps me tremendously, and I thoroughly enjoy it, and wouldn't think of letting anyone give me an edge, that would ruin it for me!
gayle in Md

Barbara
03-24-2002, 12:04 PM
I don't gamble much, mostly for table time, if at all. I also won't play in any handicapped tournaments, either. I'll play straight up, head to head, with anyone. My goal is to get better. Playing with a handicap does not help me achieve that. Besides, if you're getting a ball or two from your opponent, and your opponent has any brains, they'll start hooking you a ball or two before your money ball. What kind of playing is that?

Barbara

03-24-2002, 06:31 PM
Weight vs. Integrity is a good question to ask. It all depends on who you are playing, why you are playing, and what you are playing for? If you are gambling with someone who is close to your calibur then you dont ask for weight. If you are playing the same person to win there money you ask for weight. When I first started playing I played alot at Cornfed Red's in Columbus Ohio with Dee Adkins and Corey Deuel. We would play for $2 a game and I would ask them for weight. They would spot me the last 5 on my break and the last 6 on theres. But it was for practice and to learn to to make money for either them or me. Every time I asked for that same amount of weight and wanted to play for $1,000 or more They would never give it to me even though they always won at the cheaper amounts. The amount of weight is determined by the dollar amount.

stickman
03-24-2002, 08:20 PM
I have no problem asking for a spot. Two of my friends that I enjoy playing with are much better players than me. Without a spot, it would be no competition at all. What sense would it be for me to hand my pool allowance to them, if I had no chance of winning? As it is, I win one occassionally. It makes them shoot harder, and I feel I try harder, if I think there is a chance of winning.

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