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View Full Version : Should Clubs Be Allowed To Exclude Women?



TomBrooklyn
04-13-2003, 02:51 AM
The Augusta National Golf Club in the US does not allow women members. Annually, they hold The Masters Tournament which golfers from around the world compete in. Many consider it to be the most important tourmament in all of golf. Augusta does allow females to play the course as guests and spouses. There are golf clubs in the US that do not allow women on the grounds at all.

Should clubs be allowed to disallow members on the basis of gender?

cheesemouse
04-13-2003, 06:41 AM
I think 'private clubs' should be allowed to do whatever they do in private.

Leviathan
04-13-2003, 07:52 AM
Hi, Tom. I think that such discrimination should be discouraged. A club isn't three guys who say Let's go over to Bud's Rockhead Tavern and drink beer and talk about muscle cars and hot WPBA players, or a couple of women who meet for a game of pool and a cozy chat about male sexual incompetence. A club is an organized, ongoing association. Club memberships can confer substantial social and economic advantages, and discriminatory exclusion from membership denies classes of people access to those advantages. The real question is, What's the best way to combat discrimination of this kind? It isn't a good idea to imprison people for being ignorant, insensitive, and hidebound; so what other remedies are available and appropriate?--D.M.

eg8r
04-13-2003, 12:06 PM
Absolutely. They are private businesses that pay their taxes and abide by all the laws.

I ask the same question back at you, do you think there should be women only gyms for women to work out at.

eg8r

eg8r
04-13-2003, 12:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Club memberships can confer substantial social and economic advantages, and discriminatory exclusion from membership denies classes of people access to those advantages. <hr /></blockquote> We are not talking about classes of people. We are talking about the sex of the members.

Back to your point, why should a group of well to do people not be able to have their own club? If they pay all their taxes and operate legally under US law, why should they not be allowed to enjoy this freedom.

eg8r

Tom_In_Cincy
04-13-2003, 12:21 PM
Tom,
your wording is strange..quote, you wrote:
----------------------------------------------------------
"Should clubs be allowed to disallow members on the basis of gender?"
----------------------------------------------------------

Who's to say the Private club diallowed because of gender bias? the only way to get into a private club is to be asked or ask to join. If you ask and they say no. That's it.

IMO "Private" clubs are ALLOWED by Law to determine their own membership policies.

No one has claimed gender bias except Ms Burke. And the rules of a "private club" are not made public.

Does anybody really understand the word "Private" its like your home.. its 'private' property. Unless you have a court order, you are not permitted entry, unless you are given permission.

Will you let just anybody enter your home? or do you discriminate against strangers? its the same thing.

Once a year you have an "open house with games for all that care to enter" but the rest of the year, your house is private property.

I don't see the difference. Ms. Burke is out of order, and the law is backing up Augusta and its members of their private house and property.

Rod
04-13-2003, 12:34 PM
If the club is private as Augusta National is, then yes they are allowed to run it as the members choose. I wouldn't expect any change in the near future either.

Rod

Kato
04-13-2003, 01:02 PM
Yes they should be allowed to admit who they want. Hence "private".

Kato

SecaucusFats
04-13-2003, 02:51 PM
Should clubs be allowed to disallow members on the basis of gender?
<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, but only as long as the club is a private entity. Men and women should have the right to be, well..men and women in the comfort of their own distinct havens.

Does that mean I hate women? Goodness no....I absolutely love and am fascinated by women, and in particular the one I married. But as a man there are times when you just want to be out with the boys and have fun. Nothing wrong with that, and there's nothing wrong with the ladies having their own clubs either. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Fats

ras314
04-13-2003, 05:22 PM
Somewhat off the subject here but I remember when women weren't allowed in pool halls. At least not where I lived, and they weren't private clubs. Eleminated certian..ah..distractions.

Now one has to deal with the girls being good enough to beat anyone.

Vapros
04-13-2003, 06:56 PM
Damrite. If the club is not subsidized with tax money, it should be able to welcome, or exclude, anyone it wants.

I'm always amazed that these things keep coming up. I can't imagine even wanting to go somewhere to associate with people who don't want me. Do me a favor - don't do me any favors.

TomBrooklyn
04-13-2003, 08:15 PM
New York City forced McSorleys Pub, after a long and hard-fought battle, to admit women to the Pub on E 7th Street in Greenwich Village about 20 years ago. It turned into a college hangout after that for students of nearby NYU and Cooper Union. They continued to operate with only one bathroom though.

Mugs of beer are priced by the pair so a typical order is some multiple of 2 beers. Dark and light beer are available. The waiter can carry up to about thirty mugs at a time between his fingers and hands. The place is filled with memoribilia going back to when it opened about two hundred years ago, and none of it has ever been dusted since. Fresh sawdust is spread on the floor every day and swept up every night, prior to mopping.

ras314
04-13-2003, 08:53 PM
If I ever get up that way I'll have to find the place. Be worth it just to see that guy carry 30 mugs of beer!

Seriously though I don't like these new fangeled "family billiards parlors". To much light every where except on the tables.

Bring back the dark smokey old pool halls, no wimmen and kids. Guess have to be a private club huh?

Rich R.
04-14-2003, 04:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vapros:</font><hr>I can't imagine even wanting to go somewhere to associate with people who don't want me. Do me a favor - don't do me any favors. <hr /></blockquote>
To paraphrase Groucho Marx, "I wouldn't be a member of any club, that would have me as a member." /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bluewolf
04-14-2003, 04:38 AM
I find it interesting that the people responding to this thread have been men.

It is just my opinion that when all things are equal, that gender specific is okay. Some clubs have times when only women work out, times when only men work out and times when they can come at the same time.

If the club has something to offer that a person cannot get from another club, I do think that exclusing a particular gender is not good. If the person can get the same thing from another club, then it is not as big of a deal.

Are there golf clubs that exclude men? In terms of the golf course that excludes women, is there another one close by that is just as good that does allow women? Those would be my questions.

I used to be like that lady and get all upset about those things. Not anymore. Some things are not worth fighting about,imo.

Laura

Rich R.
04-14-2003, 07:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr>If the club has something to offer that a person cannot get from another club, I do think that exclusing a particular gender is not good. If the person can get the same thing from another club, then it is not as big of a deal.

Are there golf clubs that exclude men? In terms of the golf course that excludes women, is there another one close by that is just as good that does allow women? Those would be my questions.<hr /></blockquote>
In the case of Augusta, the issue has nothing to do with the facilities offered at the club. It is all about big money, politics and influence peddling.

Ralph S.
04-14-2003, 08:55 AM
Here we go with the gender thing. I personally think and agree that a private club can choose its membership to its liking. I do not belong to Augusta, but it is much like belonging to a private organization like an American Legion, which IS a private club. They have certain requirements for gaining membership, although they are not based on gender, they are none the less requirements.

Many people in todays society feel that there should not be bias of any kind, including gender. I will catch hell for my next statement but here it goes. Many women, not all but the vast majority, like Ms. Burke, want gender equality. In many ways this is unfair to the male gender. A good example is in the workplace.

Many women want equal pay and opportunity in a male dominated field or work environment but cant physically perform the job. Another example is athletics, particularly football. It just isnt proper in my personal opinion for a woman to try to be a guy more or less. If God wanted it that way he would not have created Eve.

For the record, I am not biased and hope I didnt come across that way. There are just some things where the line should be drawn. People like Ms.Burke often tend to cause things to get way out of control. JMO.

Jimmy Mendoza
04-14-2003, 02:00 PM
This whole argument is really a joke. Burke getting some publicity, and Jesse Jackson jumping on the bandwagon. Whoever starts a "private club" has the right to invite whoever they want to be part of their "private club", or NOT invite whoever they want to be part of their "private club". If not, it wouldn't be private!

Martha Burke's argument that this isn't the case here because Augusta National hosts the Masters doesn't hold up! Why can't a private club extend an invitation to the PGA Tour to use their facilities for a tournament? It is up to the PGA Tour to either accept, or decline, that invitation. If Martha Burke has an issue with any organization here, it is with the PGA Tour for accepting invitations to hold tournaments at private clubs where women are not allowed to be members. Augusta National is doing nothing out of line. It is a private club that reserves the right to accept, or decline, membership applications based on whatever criteria they wish to base it on. They also have the right to extend an invitation to the PGA Tour to hold a tournament there, which is the same right that any other club, public or private, in the country has. Whether or not the PGA accepts that invitation is irrelevant. Even other women's organizations have questioned the importance of this "big women's rights" issue that Martha Burke is so passionate about. This wouldn't even be much of an issue if it wasn't for the fact that the media is in dire need of a story. Had this issue surfaced in the wake of the war, it probably wouldn't have gained much exposure at all since the media now has the big story that they're always in search of.

Predator314
04-14-2003, 02:34 PM
I want to join Augusta National. They won't let me join! Why???? I want to join!!!! That's it... I'll be in Augusta on Thursday and Friday on business. I'm taking my picket signs and having my own little protest.

SecaucusFats
04-14-2003, 06:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> New York City forced McSorleys Pub, after a long and hard-fought battle, to admit women to the Pub on E 7th Street in Greenwich Village about 20 years ago. It turned into a college hangout after that for students of nearby NYU and Cooper Union. They continued to operate with only one bathroom though.

I remember that. If memory serves me well it was in 1975 that McSorley's was forced to allow women in. The restroom was kept unisex because it was felt it would deter women (it didn't) and even today it is still just one restroom for all.

Mugs of beer are priced by the pair so a typical order is some multiple of 2 beers. Dark and light beer are available. The waiter can carry up to about thirty mugs at a time between his fingers and hands.

McSorley's was a micro-brewery before the term was even coined. They only serve their own McSorley's Dark and Light.
The only snacks are fresh sliced onion with crackers and hot brown mustard. And it really is amazing to watch the servers carry so many mugs, it seems impossible. Another cool thing is the way they slide the mugs all up and down the bar like in the old movies.

The place is filled with memoribilia going back to when it opened about two hundred years ago, and none of it has ever been dusted since. Fresh sawdust is spread on the floor every day and swept up every night, prior to mopping. <hr /></blockquote>

If you look for it, along the brass footrail you will find a set of old manacles (handcuffs) hooked to the rail and the other end open. The story goes that back in the 1800's the cops (who were prdominantly Irish) would celebrate an arrest by dragging the perp down to the pub where they would handcuff the offender to whatever fixture was handy and then proceed to have a few pints. One got away and the cuffs are still there. They also have a fantastic collection of political buttons. The place reeks of history, and beer and onions.

Fats

bluewolf
04-15-2003, 03:34 AM
I think that evolution will take care of this.

As to high playing courses, it might be a gesture on their part to say make exceptions for women who play at a certain level, like 80 or less.

But, really, you cannot force a private club to do anything. If, however, high playing women keep applying, some of these clubs may consider this.

Like I said, I believe evolution will take care of this. Once a few great clubs that are now male only start allowing women, even if there are stipulations,others will follow suit over time.

Laura

Wally_in_Cincy
04-15-2003, 06:38 AM
First of all she's a hypocrite. The NCWO does not allow male members. (you can probably interpret that 2 ways)


This quote from Burke is apparently legitimate:

.... It was Burke who in a Ms. Magazine article wrote,

<font color="purple">"So how do we control men's fertility? Mandatory contraception beginning at puberty, with the rule relaxed only for procreation under the right circumstances (he can afford it and has a willing partner) and for the right reasons (determined by a panel of experts, and with the permission of his designated female partner). The fertility authorities could use a combination of punishments for men who fail to get implants and for doctors who removed them without proper authorization. The doctors could lose their licenses or, in extreme cases, go to prison." </font color> (Nov/Dec 1997)

<font color="blue">What a male-hating freak . Why would the major media give her any credibility at all? What if Jerry Falwell or Newt Gingrich had said something like that about female contraception? The networks would have it as their top story. Jeez this stuff pisses me off /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif</font color>

eg8r
04-15-2003, 07:15 AM
She is a freak. I like this quote... <blockquote><font class="small">Quote burke:</font><hr> Mandatory contraception beginning at puberty, with the rule relaxed only for procreation under the right circumstances (he can afford it and has a willing partner) <hr /></blockquote> I guess in her mind it is the man's job to "afford" the baby. Why doesn't the woman have to work and help pay. Why doesn't the woman have to have any contraception.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote burke:</font><hr> So how do we control men's fertility? <hr /></blockquote> Who is 'we'?

Burke is a joke and there are not many that listen to her. Here is a great example. She hired a professional team to go out and get protestors for her from the colleges and universities and elsewhere in Atlanta. She then chartered to buses to carry them all over to Augusta. Well when the buses finally left, one went home and the other carried 18 people to Augusta. She had a total of 18 people who were willing to show support.

The race whore Jesse Jackson did not even show up. He has been on a losing streak here lately and he did not want to be seen with a group of 18 to 22 women aruging a lame point. He did offer support and help, but he never came through.

eg8r

Tom_In_Cincy
04-15-2003, 07:16 AM
bluewolf

The Masters is an "invitation only" tournament. Only the top 16 finishing players win an automatic 'invitation' for the next year's tournament.

eg8r
04-15-2003, 07:19 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I think that evolution will take care of this.
<hr /></blockquote> Take care of what?
[ QUOTE ]
As to high playing courses, it might be a gesture on their part to say make exceptions for women who play at a certain level, like 80 or less.
<hr /></blockquote> Ability is not the determining factor. It is more how much money you have, and are you a male.

eg8r

Wally_in_Cincy
04-15-2003, 07:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>
.....The race whore Jesse Jackson did not even show up. He has been on a losing streak here lately and he did not want to be seen with a group of 18 to 22 women aruging a lame point. He did offer support and help, but he never came through.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Because he did not see any <font color="green">$$$$$</font color> dollar signs in Martha's cause. He makes me sick too /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

TomBrooklyn
04-15-2003, 08:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote burke:</font><hr> Mandatory contraception beginning at puberty<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> in her mind it is the man's job to "afford" the baby. Why doesn't the woman have to work and help pay?<hr /></blockquote>I don't like anything being mandated that is a personal decision that doesn't hurt anyone else; but I think most women do generally look for a man who is able to 'afford her and the baby'.

Acknowledging exceptions based on circumstances and personal preferences; isn't it a woman's role to make babies, raise them, and take care of the house while the man goes out and makes money?

This is ingrained in human nature by thousands of years of human evolution wherein the man goes out hunting, usually in groups, and the woman stays home with the kids and collects nuts and berries.

eg8r
04-15-2003, 09:18 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Acknowledging exceptions based on circumstances and personal preferences; isn't it a woman's role to make babies, raise them, and take care of the house while the man goes out and makes money?

This would be indicated by thousands of years of human evolution wherein the man goes out hunting, and the woman does the aforementioned plus collects nuts and berries etc. close to home.
<hr /></blockquote> Well Tom, I think it would be real nice to see a woman make the baby without the help of the man. No I don't think in this day and age that it is the womans job to raise the baby and keep house. Sorry but that is a bit old fashioned for me.

I live in a world where too many stay at home moms, complain about not ever having any money. I also live in a world where it is almost mandatory for a family to be dual income family if they want to have any sort of extra income in which to enjoy.

One of the misconceptions people have about money is that they think they are doing fine (can afford) if they make enough money to pay the bills. Sorry, that is not enough. You are making enough money if you are paying off you bills, saving a decent amount for retirement, and are also building an emergency account. More often than not, something will come up (car accident, injury, theft) and you cannot pay for it. Before you bring up insurance, you can bring up deductibles. This is a guess, but I would think most people accept higher deductibles so that their monthly payment will be lower. If a family is only making enough to pay the bills then there is nothing left for the deductible. Then credit cards start getting used, and you fall back into that pit of debt. It happens too quick.

Back to my other point, No, I don't think it is up to the man to afford to have the baby. I think it is up to both parents to afford the baby. In reference to you thousands of years of indication, mularkey. I guess then, you are out tilling your land hunting for food every day.

If you have found one of those special women that like to clean your house and cook for you and wait on your every whim, that is great. I just hope you found a great paying job also. A spouse cleaning the house does nothing for the mortgage payment.

eg8r

Jimmy Mendoza
04-15-2003, 10:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr>
This is ingrained in human nature by thousands of years of human evolution wherein the man goes out hunting, usually in groups, and the woman stays home with the kids and collects nuts and berries.<hr /></blockquote>

Oh don't worry! There are still plenty of women who stay home and collect "nuts and berries" while their men are out laboring to make the dough! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rod
04-15-2003, 10:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
One of the misconceptions people have about money is that they think they are doing fine (can afford) if they make enough money to pay the bills. Sorry, that is not enough. You are making enough money if you are paying off you bills, saving a decent amount for retirement, and are also building an emergency account. More often than not, something will come up (car accident, injury, theft) and you cannot pay for it. Before you bring up insurance, you can bring up deductibles. This is a guess, but I would think most people accept higher deductibles so that their monthly payment will be lower. If a family is only making enough to pay the bills then there is nothing left for the deductible. Then credit cards start getting used, and you fall back into that pit of debt. It happens too quick.
<hr /></blockquote>

I completely agree with your thinking. Manage your life like you would a business. You need operating capitol and reinvest in the business. Same in your personal life you need savings and an investing plan. One thing you don't need is debt. If some people had hard times fall on them, after 1 month they would be selling everything they own to stay afloat.

Only one income in a household these days is asking for trouble. That is unless one income is high enough and you live within your means. Living within your means, means you are out of debt and saving money.

Speaking of debt and saving money, all to often I see two new expensive cars in the drive. Well car insurance, license plates, service, not to mention the payments is one hell of a debt. When times go bad guess what goes first, either that or any number of expensive toys. You need a minimum of 6 months reserve cash.

In business if you can't afford to pay the bills, rent or stock the shelves guess what happens. The elictric company turns off the power etc. Failure or being bankrupt is just around the corner.

The same happens at home unless you have a lot of equity built up that you can borrow against. Usually this isn't the case. Yes unfortunately living the good life and getting by isn't the answer. This is just the tip of the iceberg and elementary financial basics.

Rod

bluewolf
04-15-2003, 11:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Acknowledging exceptions based on circumstances and personal preferences; isn't it a woman's role to make babies, raise them, and take care of the house while the man goes out and makes money?

This would be indicated by thousands of years of human evolution wherein the man goes out hunting, and the woman does the aforementioned plus collects nuts and berries etc. close to home.
<hr /></blockquote> Well Tom, I think it would be real nice to see a woman make the baby without the help of the man. No I don't think in this day and age that it is the womans job to raise the baby and keep house. Sorry but that is a bit old fashioned for me.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

tap tap

My brother is a corporate atty and they could live quite well on his income. His wife has a career too . Her career is important to her.Prior to marriage both were successful in their careers. My brother recognizes that while it would be nice to have her stay home and care for his two little girls, she does not have the temperment for this. My brother is very laid back and takes care of the girls quite a bit and I cannot imagine ANY woman being more caring and loving and at the same time disciplining the girls with love than he does. He is absolutely superb.

The point. Sex does not dictate who is the best parent regardless of who got pregnant and went through childbirth. Plus, how good is a female parent who gives up her career, not because she wants to, but out of guilt. You get one malajusted mom producing maladjusted kids. That is what you get!!

Also the grandmothers often baby sit which means that the girls get to see their grandparents quite a bit. Any expert will agree that exposure to the grandparents,especially nice ones, is beneficial to the children.

The girls are happy, well adjusted and top students. I do not see that they 'suffer' one iota.

I think, Tom, that it is time to come out of the 'box' that you have locked yourself in.

Laura

eg8r
04-15-2003, 12:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
My brother is a corporate atty and they could live quite well on his income. <hr /></blockquote> Makes it easy to use this example disprove what I said earlier, however most people in this situation are not attorneys.

[ QUOTE ]
The point. Sex does not dictate who is the best parent regardless of who got pregnant and went through childbirth. <hr /></blockquote> Who was trying to disprove this point in the first place? No one yet has said who would be a better parent. You have read too much into something that was not there.
[ QUOTE ]
Any expert will agree that exposure to the grandparents,especially nice ones, is beneficial to the children. <hr /></blockquote> Who wouldn't? Who would you claim to be an expert? Also, the sentence only makes sense because of the inserted explanation of the type of grandparent, a nice one.
[ QUOTE ]
I think, Tom, that it is time to come out of the 'box' that you have locked yourself in. <hr /></blockquote> Agreed. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

bluewolf
04-15-2003, 01:30 PM
Many points that you and others made that it is needed for both parents to work is true.

I guess I was making another point. Even if the income is enough for the mom to stay home, does not necessarily make for a better, healthier situation. And also I wanted to make the point that a person's sex has nothing to do with who is the preferred parent to spend the most time with the children, ie-the more emotionally healthy,nurturing parent may be male or female.

Laura

#### leonard
04-16-2003, 06:17 AM
The Country Club where I caddied, at the end of the year any money short would be made up by two people and one of them was a women. Amongst the caddyies, they thought she had balls.