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View Full Version : **Attention ALL**Sardo Rack-U.S.Open



Brady_Behrman
03-23-2002, 10:33 PM
If you eliminate the Soft Break, would The Sardo Rack be ok? Sardo has some type of laser that can track how fast the ball moves. This would cut-out the Soft Break entirely. The nine would be back to its original spot and The one ball would be ON the spot. I appreciate any comments that you'll have...

03-23-2002, 11:16 PM
i think you're missing the point. when the sardo was used originally, the one was on the spot and the guys were hard breaking the wing balls right into the corner. that's why they moved it up and created the soft break one in the side. c'mon man, now he wants to try a radar gun? how many more adjustements are the promoters willing to do just to keep the sardo money?? it's had its chance and it didn't work. walk away. i suspect that if you added "dump sardo" to the vote list it would hit 90+%

dan

Tom_In_Cincy
03-23-2002, 11:19 PM
Brady,
Two questions.
1. If the Sardo is back. why would that eliminate the soft break?
2. what difference would a laser make?

cheesemouse
03-24-2002, 12:05 AM
The Sardo only works on tricked up/cooked tables; it doesnt' give tight racks on broke in tables. It's a piece of crap.

Troy
03-24-2002, 12:26 AM
My "love" for the SARDINE GIZMO is on record at the old CCB and at Playpool.Com /ccboard/images/icons/frown.gif I have "trained" tables with both new and used cloth for use with the GIZMO and I know the effects.

Why defile the table by going through the "training" required to use the SARDINE GIZMO ??? If the answer is "sponsor money", so be it.

Why intentionally create DIVOTS in the table by going through the "training" thereby making a slow-roll in that area nearly impossible ??? If the answer is "sponsor money", so be it.

The simple fact is that after "training" the table to use the SARDINE GIZMO, actual use of the damned contraption is totally un-necessary since the balls just FALL INTO THE DIVOTS created by said "training".

Initial use of the GIZMO resulted in one or both wing balls being pocketed almost every time. Next came moving the 9-Ball up to the spot. Then came the soft break.

What possible good would come from using a radar gun ??? Are you going to monitor EVERY break and declare an illegal break if the radar gun reads less than "X" mph ??? Who would decide what that "X" mph would be ??? How would that "rule" be enforced ???

Here are two real novel ideas to be done together ---
1.. Rack the 1-Ball on the spot with a standard WOODEN Triangle, AND
2.. Break from inside a "box" defined by the headstring and the first diamond in from the side rails.

Me passionate about the SARDINE GIZMO ??? Damn right I am. I think the contraption is an abomination and should be banned from use on ANY Pool Table.

Troy... Bloodpressure rising just thinking about it...

TomBrooklyn
03-24-2002, 12:49 AM
Is it impossible to get a fully tight rack with a regular plastic or wood triangle?

Tom_In_Cincy
03-24-2002, 12:54 AM
Yes... and it has been possible for years. have you ever used a Diamond made Rack? they are just great.

JimS
03-24-2002, 01:11 AM
The Sardo rack may be THE worst thing to happen to pool in my lifetime. Read my lips: IT DOES NOT WORK.

I don't care about the slow break. The slow break takes certain practiced skills and skill is what the game is about. What I'm concerned about is the craters in the playing surface of the table and the shots that cannot be played as they should be because of the Sardo. That damages the integrity of the game and that is not acceptable.

Brady, I believe that the way you come down on this will determine whether the folks on this board, and in the pool world in general, consider you a real pool lover, a man with integrity, or just another promoter willing to sacrifice the integrity of the game for a few bucks in promotional money.

I'm just telling it the way it is. I believe that your reputation is at stake here. It's pretty harsh, but that is, I believe, the truth.

Rod
03-24-2002, 02:18 AM
Brady, First and most important, the 1 ball has to be on the spot. The game loses all sense of creditability and maybe you will to, if you continue to allow such a change in our game. My opinion is very similar to Troy, so I don't have to do the typing. What's the players opinion? Have you spoke with them? Your going to get a few whiners so you can't please everyone. My last comment about this rack:
In your wildest dreams, can you ever imagine a sardo being used at the 14-1 Open championships? How about an all around with One pocket included? Scarry thought huh?
I hope you make the right choices, it's you future.

03-24-2002, 04:48 AM
I think it's time to introduce ten ball instead of nine ball. The break has been a source of problems for years. Forget lasers. Use Sardo if you want. Another possibility is to go to alternate breaks with a re-lag on hill- hill games.

Rich R.
03-24-2002, 08:13 AM
First of all, the poll would not let me vote. It said that it has already received a vote from this IP address, which I guarantee you is false.

If you want to use the Sardo rack, to keep their sponsorship, that is a decision you and your father have to make. You are running the tournament.
As a player, I believe anything that puts divots in a table is wrong. It makes the table an obstacle course.
One thing that is not needed is a lazer gun to elimiate the soft break. We do not need another gizmo to facilitate the use of the first gizmo. I believe in KISS.
I don't know what the problem is with the soft break, other than the crowd does not hear the loud crash of the break. The soft break is just a skill that the players are using to be effective when the Sardo rack is used. To eliminate the soft break would be the same as telling players that they cannot slow role a cue ball for any other shot. The players are just reacting to the situation presented to them, the same as they do on any other shot.
If your goal is to eliminate the soft break, eliminate the Sardo rack.
Whether you keep or lose the Sardo, I would favor alternating breaks.
JMHO. Rich R.

Doctor_D
03-24-2002, 08:15 AM
Good morning:

Either use the rack with the One Ball on the spot or eliminate the rack. NO laser guns, NO radar guns, No additional gizmos and/or adjustments to make the game fit the product.

Dr. D.

Cuemage
03-24-2002, 08:33 AM
I kinda like tha 10-ball idea...has anyone ever used tha Sardo for this? And does there seem to be any balls that go automatically?

Gayle in MD
03-24-2002, 10:22 AM
Hi Tom, How are you? I have a nice, wooden, diamond shaped nine ball rack that works great. I really can't imagine how anyone could be dumb enough to put that Sardo contraption on ANY table! I can't figure out how these people (The Sardo's) are spending all this money as sponsers to promote a product that definately damages tables? I can't imagine that they could be selling enough of them to pay for their advertising??? Anyone know???
Gayle in Md.

Brady_Behrman
03-24-2002, 10:33 AM
My father and I are getting together this evening to discuss The Open. Sardo contacted him yesterday, that is why i posted what i did. Danny Veghs (www.dannyveghs.com) has an outstanding Wooden rack, they are the Official rack of my little Spring-Open. I appreciate all the opinions and would love to hear more..Negative and positive..

Another Question, What do you'll think of Silver Cup Chalk?

P.S...Sardo haters, Don't worry Nothing is Signed!

Thanks Alot,
Brady Berhman

03-24-2002, 10:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Gayle in MD:</font><hr> I can't imagine that they could be selling enough of them to pay for their advertising??? Anyone know???
Gayle in Md. <hr></blockquote>

i've been very reliably advised that the sardo bros. (i can never remember which one is the big money guy) make a ton on other enterprises and that the cash they dump on the rack is like a hobby for them. they really do, in absolutely good faith, think that they have done something that makes the game better. they are wrong. the only benefit i've seen is that it usually cuts down on the arguing about the rack.

dan

03-24-2002, 10:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Brady_Behrman:</font><hr>Another Question, What do you'll think of Silver Cup Chalk?

Brady Berhman <hr></blockquote>

the overwhelming majority of this board has consistantly, over the years, come down in favor of master-blue chalk. very opinionated about that. having said that, since the players can bring their own with them, i think you should grab any money you can from the silver cup guys.

dan.."you'll" was misused above. the correct is either "y'all", which is the preferred, or "youze guys" which is ok too.

03-24-2002, 10:52 AM
Actually, there is a problem with the soft break, Rich. It's much easier to hit the head ball with a soft break exactly where you want to and with the exact amount of spin that you want to use. It's kind of like shooting a trick shot. Once you learn how to hit it, you'd practically have to miscue to be inaccurate. But a hard break requires a great deal more skill because you're adding a lot more speed to the equation. It takes years to develop a hard break with accuracy.

Another part of the game that's now missing due to the Sardo rack is the skill involved in reading a rack. When the balls are hand-racked they are never absolutely perfectly racked, and it requires a great deal of skill and knowledge on the breaker's part to understand when to ask for a re-rack, when to let it go and how to maximize his or her breaking opportunity. It goes way beyond just checking to see if the first three balls are frozen.

I've heard many players (both men and women) complain that all their years of hard work on breaking are now useless, and it equalizes them with opponents who haven't taken the time to develop their breaking skills.

Fran

Brady_Behrman
03-24-2002, 10:54 AM
Thanks dan...ya'll...

03-24-2002, 11:09 AM
I was told that "Tweeten" made both Master, and Silver Cup chalk. If this is true why does tweeten always promote the chalk that the players feel inadequate?

03-24-2002, 11:21 AM
The sport of billiards has certain sounds that are directly associated with the game. There is nothing better than the sound of balls knocking against a wooden oak rack, one that your fingers can get in behind to rack a full rack. As a room owner its an audible sound letting me know the skill/frustration or composure of a table or the person racking immediately. The audio that this has is crucial to television much like the sounds of balls being pocketed. The sound of the loud crushing break shot parrallels the rack wooden sounds. Our sport needs to keep these important factors that "read" into the feel and type of sport we have. "The industry has lost touch with the identity of the sport" and these important items need to be kept in place. BF

Rich R.
03-24-2002, 04:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Actually, there is a problem with the soft break, Rich. It's much easier to hit the head ball with a soft break exactly where you want to and with the exact amount of spin that you want to use. It's kind of like shooting a trick shot. Once you learn how to hit it, you'd practically have to miscue to be inaccurate. But a hard break requires a great deal more skill because you're adding a lot more speed to the equation. It takes years to develop a hard break with accuracy.

Fran <hr></blockquote>

My point is Fran, should the rules, or a lazer, dictate how hard a player has to hit a shot, whether it is the break shot or not. The skill a player develops to use a soft break with the Sardo rack is the equivalent of a player who develops a great hard break with a normal rack. The good hard break may be more dificult to develop, but both hard and soft breaks are developed skills. I don't think we should be making rules to defeat skills.
I know it is not popular, but I believe alternating breaks would be a good thing, whether using the Sardo rack or not.
Needless to say, I could live the rest of my life without the Sardo rack and be quite happy.
JMHO. Rich R.

03-24-2002, 07:01 PM
If you moved the one ball back on the spot, you'd be right back where it all started, Brady, with the wing balls going in on the break every time, regardless of the break speed.

The reason the rack was moved up in the first place was to avoid the wing ball problem, and the reason the players are soft-breaking now is because it provides the most consistency in pocketing a ball on the break with the rack in the higher position...and if you force the players to break hard with the rack in the higher position, they'll become angry and frustrated at how many times they won't make a ball on the break.

If you decide to accept the Sardo rack, I see no other way than for you to just accept it for what it is.

Fran

Barbara
03-24-2002, 07:09 PM
But!! When the wing balls go in, that means that there's a gap between the wing ball and the ball in front of it. Anybody who has read Joe Tucker's booking on racking should know this.

It's the Sardo rack itself that's failing this sport.

Barbara

03-24-2002, 07:29 PM
I know what you're getting at Rich, and I do agree with your point. I would also like to point out that as you know, there are two elements of skill involved in breaking. The first is the skill of reading the rack, and the second is the skill of executing the break. Reading the rack is a high level skill, no doubt about it. Executing a hard break with accuracy is a high level skill. No doubt as well. Executing a soft break is not a high level skill.

It is a fact that the Sardo rack has effectively eliminated two high level professional skills. One is reading the rack and the other is the hard break. The players are left with the intermediate skill of soft-breaking.


Fran

03-24-2002, 07:32 PM
There's another way for the wing balls to go in, Barbara. That's if the balls are all racked perfectly with the exact same tension between each ball.

Fran

Troy
03-24-2002, 10:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fran Crimi:</font><hr> There's another way for the wing balls to go in, Barbara. That's if the balls are all racked perfectly with the exact same tension between each ball.

Fran <hr></blockquote>

And the rack being perfectly "square" with the table.

Part of the setup to use the SARDINE GIZMO is to place two marks or "dots" on the cloth that align the base of the GIZMO at the prescribed points.

03-24-2002, 10:45 PM
Before the Sardo Tight Rack came along, everybody was complaining that they don't get a tight rack. Now that Sardo has provided the perfectly tight rack everybody has been dreaming of, they want to get rid of it. What the hell is going on here ? I believe the real reason what for hating Sardo is that finally, some kid just figured out how to exploit this tight rack with a soft break. Players spent years to develop that thunder break so they get upset when somebody just 'poofs' the cue ball and consistently pocket balls during the break. Then he runs out and gets the money. My opinion is that players just learn to live with it. Afterall, Sardo has always been there to sponsor major tournaments. And in a sport where getting sponsors is a very difficult thing to do, we just have be glad that there is a sponsor to keep professional pool sport alive.

Brady_Behrman
03-24-2002, 11:43 PM
Good Point...
I feel the same in many aspects...
Everything has its ups and downs...
The Sardo guys are great people. I met them at last years trade show. I said,How would you like to be "the official Rack of the U.S.Open". Carmine said, You kidding...Carmine called Lou and We shook hands and had a very successful relationship thusfar. The Sardos are great guys that seems to really care about "OUR" sport..

Anyway...Time will Tell....No QUIK DECISSIONS on 2002 U.S.Open....

Thanks
Brady

Troy
03-25-2002, 12:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> Before the Sardo Tight Rack came along, everybody was complaining that they don't get a tight rack. Now that Sardo has provided the perfectly tight rack everybody has been dreaming of, they want to get rid of it. What the hell is going on here ? I believe the real reason what for hating Sardo is that finally, some kid just figured out how to exploit this tight rack with a soft break. Players spent years to develop that thunder break so they get upset when somebody just 'poofs' the cue ball and consistently pocket balls during the break. Then he runs out and gets the money. My opinion is that players just learn to live with it. Afterall, Sardo has always been there to sponsor major tournaments. And in a sport where getting sponsors is a very difficult thing to do, we just have be glad that there is a sponsor to keep professional pool sport alive. <hr></blockquote>

While there is validity in what you say, that is no reaon to violate the integrity of the game, violate the table to use the GIZMO, or change the rules to implement its use.

It is really very simple --- LEARN TO RACK PROPERLY !!!

Troy

03-25-2002, 12:19 AM
10 Ball, 10 Ball, 10 Ball with alternating breaks. To have the last Open end up with a score of 11-0 (or whatever it was) is embarrassing for the sport. The gizmo is not at fault the game of 9-ball has become too simple for the elite players and the gizmo has made any tendacies on the breaking of the balls even more magnified. This is simply too much of an advantage for the top players. At an absolute minimum the breaks should be alternating or loser breaks. Off-hand I don't know of any other sport that has the winner maintaining control over the initial offensive shot. Personally I would rather see a hill-hill match than any one player running 5 or 6 racks in a row and dominating because the other player doesn't get a chance to play. Brady, now's your chance to try something different - DO IT!

Rod
03-25-2002, 12:20 AM
I see lot more involved than a soft break. Were losing our standards here, the nine is racked where the one should be.
The one has to be on the foot spot, then they can break at any speed they choose. The soft break is nothing new, it did slow up a bit more and was perfected better.

03-25-2002, 01:33 AM
I agree that players have to make certain concessions to keep their sport alive. However, there needs to be a minimum dollar value in order to allow such concessions. For the past 2 years, Sardo has contributed substantially to the WPBA tour as both (I believe) presenting sponsor and rack sponsor and I for one have supported this effort. However, this year their sponsorship is substantially less as they are the rack sponsor only. I do not know how much they are contributing, however, traditionally, rack sponsors contributions are on the low end of sponsorship dollars. To me and others I've spoken to, it's indeed questionable as to whether it warrants changing the game of 9 ball for such a minimal amount.

I would have wished that our Board of Directors would have taken it to the membership for a vote once it was determined that the Sardo sponsorship would be substantially less this year.

I think that players who have worked hard on their break their whole lives have a legitimate gripe, and if they're not getiing fairly compensated they have a right to complain.

Players wanting a tight rack is one thing, but no one expected for the game of 9 ball to completely change the way that it did. They didn't ask for divots in the table, nor did they ask for the balls to be racked higher than they should.

Fran

Greg/Diamond
03-25-2002, 04:06 AM
I probably would be better off if I would stay out of this conversation, but I feel as though I should at least explain how this laser subject started. First off I'd like to thank the people who responded favorably about my diamond wooden rack. My goal was to make a rack that made sure the balls would all be touching when they were pushed to the top of the rack. I couldn't stand a gap, especially between the two balls touching the one ball. I'd rather rack with my hands than use a rack that wouldn't freeze the balls. However, in all fairness to Lou Sardo I see some potential advantages in tournament conditions. It seems to speed up play and take away possible arguments about good or bad racking, whether by your oponent, yourself or a partial ref . I myself know of ways to alter a rack good or bad. I'm not for certain at this point if there are ways to alter the break outcome with a Sardo rack or not. If there is a way it won't take a pool player long to figure it out. Nevertheless I allowed the main Accu Stats table to use the Sardo rack at my Derby City Classic tournament. I was especially curious about how the rack would be received in one pocket. There was added money, but not in the amount that could alter my use of a product because of money alone. I however strive to bring the best possible conditions to tournaments I'm involved with, but I just had to know how it would work. I think the rack worked rather well in the one pocket, but had minor problems in the nine ball with the so called "soft break". The problem I have with a perfect rack and a soft break is "PREDICTABILITY". I don't like any sport that IMO becomes predictable. A soft break not only allows a player to possibly find a position where they can make a ball on the break practically every time, but they can play shape on the next ball and IMO make the game boring. A soft break seldom if ever allows a nine on the break which some find exciting.
With all this said, I had a conversation with Lou Sardo recently at the Valley Forge event. I informed him of my concerns and probably not using his rack a my next Derby City Event. I in no way wanted to hurt his or anyones feelings, but I had to say what I thought. We do however need people like Lou desperately involved in our sport. I really feel he's trying to make things better and is not just about making money. If a way can be presented to freeze the balls and get rid of "PREDICTIBILITY"., I see promise for his rack. All promoters need revenue from productive products that improve our game. I suggested to him that in order for his rack to be considered he would have to eliminate the soft break! The real problem to me was the word soft or hard is too open to interpetation. He suggested requiring a number of balls being required to pass the side pocket and I countered with requiring a minimum speed number using a rader gun to detect the speed. Infact, in his booth he was using a radar gun in a break contest. Seemed like a natural to me. I hope the newly formed mens association UPPA will intervene and set the speed somewhere around 15 minimun. A slow break is around 8 or 9 with the gun. I like seeing the speed of the ball in a tennis or baseball game and mentioned to Pat Fleming of Accustats that a small box showing break speed would possibly be interesting to some viewers. Possibly even offering a cash prize to the fastest break that pockets a ball without scratching. I do think breaking the balls with a minimum speed will allow the nine ball on the break somtimes and the extra ball movement will create many kisses and offer all kinds of challenging outs which we have been used to for the most part of our pool lives.
I hear your responses for and against. I'm not for sure myself, but I'm not scared of trying something new if it could be good for the sport. Maybe one of you can find a better way to fix or improve what he's got. I must be crazy, I'm in the rack business myself! All I know is pro pool needs more tournaments with much more added money. We must be careful not to allow quality to be diminished in the name of money only. I believe at this stage in the evolution of pool we must be open to well thought out changes. I can't hold my breath and wait for some sugar daddy company like Coke to save pro pool. I still feel people in the billiard industry who benifit directly from pool related products should join together and lay a foundation for coorporations outside the billiards industry to join in. I addressed the ACA (American Cuemaker Assoc.) to join me and help create a quality tournament, to which they seemed receptive. I even now call on other table manufactures to put their own events on. Alot of billiard related products make money and very few give anything back. It's easiy to see what cue makers, cloth companies etc. help. I know it's tough and not necessairly profitable to put on events. I found out the hard way and offer my help, because as pool grows so does my goals and business!
Sorry about not putting in paragraphs!

Rich R.
03-25-2002, 06:28 AM
Fran, I think we agree on this isssue, but for different reasons. We are just looking at the situation from different perspectives. The skill of reading the racks is exactly what the Sardo rack is meant to eliminate, because it is suppose to provide a consistently tight rack each time, therefore, eliminating much of the disagreement between players concerning the rack. In a way, it accomplishes that objective. To my knowledge, there has never been a rule forcing a player to break hard. Although it is a fine skill, it was never mandatory. I have seen some players with less than hard breaks that were very effective. I just don't think a hard break should become mandatory, with the use of a lazer, just to facilitate the continued use of the Sardo rack. I also do not like the divots that are put into the cloth for use of the Sardo rack.
Regardless of our reasons, I believe we can agree that the main issue is to do away with the Sardo rack, for now.
The Sardo's are oviously intelligent people with a love of pool. Maybe they can go back to the drawing board and find a way to do away with the flaws in their design.
Rich R.

03-25-2002, 08:07 AM
Man this has everyone worked up!!....I love it!. Anyway here are my thoughts. With whatever you give the TOP pros to shoot at on a table, the smartest ones will figure out the best angles and exploit it to win which makes them great players.Changing the game from 9 to 10 ball wont change the winners....Alternate break is taking the advantage from the better player.Thats like saying it's no fair for a guy to run 150 and out in 14.1!"Oh lets lag after every rack and start over"?.YEARIGHT!.."let the other guy have a chance its not fair"...BULL!!! if you are pounding someone so be it,thats the game last time I checked. Keep em in the chair!!When I miss you can shoot all you want ,however you want!...Who the hell said anything about "FAIR" He won the lag let him keep going if he runs out.To take a line from Grady "You better practice the lag!".Now for the rack thing....Let some of the pool fans rack for the players, they would do it for free just to get close to the matches,and with a little racking instruction from a tourny ref and a regular wooden rack, draw a line around the rack like they do in 14.1 so the rack can't be "tilted", then tell the players that's how it's gonna be,and break however you wish! problem solved.Now that that's done I'm gonna go work on the Ozone thing and world hunger....be right back...Gerry:)

03-25-2002, 09:10 AM
I think the Sardo speeds the play but does not freeze the balls, it gives a fair rack for everyone. PLEASE DO NOT PUT THE NINE ON THE SPOT . That turned the Open into a one pocket match. But what ever you do I'll be there, it's still the best week of the year.

Nostroke
03-25-2002, 01:13 PM
Well then the wing balls will go consistently wont they?Isnt that why they moved the nine to the spot to begin with culminating when J Archer made wing balls 7 racks in a row and ran out the set?

Why doesnt some brave promoter (hint hint) tell Mr Sardo to take a hike with his rack.It is totally shunned in REAL POOL. I have been to at least forty pool rooms in various parts of the country in the last year. I have never seen a Tight rack in use in a single one of them! One room
(i heard) tried it for a week, then quickly found a home owner to take it off their hands.

Sardo must pay big bucks to promoters to feature his useless
rack. I mean when it proved to be not workable, they actually changed the rules of the game (nine ball on spot) rather than simply forgetting the rack. Is he really passing out that much money that he owns most every promoter?

He will NEVER EVER make a profit with these things and he must know that by now. I think he just wants to continue to be a big shot at the tournaments! The rack hase had more publicity then any pool product in the last 50 years and still no one wants them. Give it up!

03-25-2002, 03:13 PM
Maybe golf should shorten up the distance to the greens, then we wouldn't have to hear that "Sound" that a driver makes when you hit the ball 325 yards. The intimidation SOUNDS of a crushing break where 5 balls drop is quite a site and SOUND. Hell I like the sound a ball washer makes going up and down at the golf course. Hell, maybe we should make the bowling alleys shorter and not hear that loud SOUND of a crushing 16 lb. bowling ball too. Certain aspects are inherent in each sport. Maybe we should make the tennis courts shorter so the guys will hit quieter shots with more accuracy "NOT". Give it a rest, rack em up, and play. BF "irritated again" I greatly like Greg Sullivans comments about the difference in each rack lay out with a hard break. BF

PoolFan
03-25-2002, 04:48 PM
I do not believe that we should add rules such as how fast should the cue ball go for a legal break. Nine ball has been a difficult discipline due to the break. Over the years, we have tried to change the break to lessen it's advantage like adding the breakbox. Now, we have a rack that is so consistent that if we rack the one on the spot, the corner ball goes in and if we rack the nine on the spot, the one goes in the side. Get rid of the rack!!! It takes away from the game.

Players should not be penalized, because they find out how to take advantage of a situation. Having a consistent rack is nice in theory, but obviously has to many disadvantages. The US Open and other events should go to using the old racks.

Plus, nothing drove me more crazy then to watch Corey with his soft break in the finals. Not only was the rack consistent with pocketing balls, but they racked the balls in the same manner allowing for the run out pattern to be identical.

03-25-2002, 05:26 PM
Either get rid of the Sardo rack, or switch it to a 10-ball tournament, with the 1 racked on the spot.

I have seen in my playing of 10 ball that sometimes, one of the rear balls tends to go three rails around the table, right towards the corner pocket that is behind the rack and opposite from the rail from which I am breaking. Some days, because of the way that the table happens to be racking at that time, I make this ball very frequently. I haven't yet investigated enough to determine if this is because of particular gaps. Meaning, I don't know if this would be the tendancy on a perfectly frozen 10-ball rack. When I get time (working too much right now, with jury duty starting on Wednesday, just in case I didn't have enough to do already), I'm going to investigate this a bit more.

Nostroke
03-25-2002, 06:46 PM
Yea Brady -Thats another question-why did they rack the balls in the same order all the time in the us open so that Corey had the 2 ball in the side almost every time?

To tell you the truth, i take nothing away from Corey-He is certainly a student of the rack and a pioneer in this area. But the tournament's he wins are with new balls, new tables and tight racks. Vary it some and i dont think he wins.

It would be nice (and im sure i have no backing on this-certainly be a problem with sponsers) if you could vary the conditions. Some new tables, some old, some simonis, some rugs, some tight racks some not, some new balls some old. Then you'd have a versatile all round champion.

Ken
03-25-2002, 06:56 PM
Brady, The top players that I have heard express a preference for chalk have claimed that silver cup is the best. The Master's is a good, cheap, utility chalk.
The one tournament I've seen where silver cup was a sponsor the silver cup was placed on the rails and I don't think it was ever touched. The players used their own chalk. If that's the kind of publicity silver cup is willing to pay for then I think you should take their money. There's not nearly the same amount of controversy about chalk.
Ken in CT

03-25-2002, 07:02 PM
If Master's is a "cheap utility chalk" then why is it the preferred chalk the players keep taking out of their pockets and leaving the Silver Cup untouched? Just curious.

Ken
03-25-2002, 07:12 PM
They're superstitious and set in their ways.

Troy
03-25-2002, 07:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Brady_Behrman:</font><hr> My father and I are getting together this evening to discuss The Open. Sardo contacted him yesterday, that is why i posted what i did. Danny Veghs (www.dannyveghs.com) has an outstanding Wooden rack, they are the Official rack of my little Spring-Open. I appreciate all the opinions and would love to hear more..Negative and positive..

Another Question, What do you'll think of Silver Cup Chalk?

P.S...Sardo haters, Don't worry Nothing is Signed!

Thanks Alot,
Brady Berhman <hr></blockquote>

Let me think... OK, no brainer..... Q-Master Billiards uses Master Chalk... Case Closed !!!

03-26-2002, 11:45 AM
Brady, there are certain positives of the Sardo rack - the biggest being the ease in which one can freeze the balls for a tight rack everytime. One of the drawbacks to the rack IMO (that I have not heard mentioned) is that the 9-ball rarely moves out of the rack area. Sardo claims is one of the real bonuses of the rack (that it's nearly impossible to pocket the 9-ball on the break), but the problem is the games always seem to end with the same shot. Unless the 9-ball is re-positioned at some point during the game, the games always end with the same shot - very boring. At Valley Forge, in the Fisher/Corr Saturday night match Karen was racking the 8-ball in the same place every game, for whatever reason. It seemed like Allison ended nearly every game with the exact same 2 shots on the 8 and 9-ball, which made the games a little too predictable particularly from a spectating standpoint. My guess is Karen won't do that the next time they play. - Chris in NC

Troy
03-26-2002, 05:43 PM
With just a bit of practice, ANYONE can learn to rack correctly.

I am TD at a weekly 9-Ball tourney. We have a break pot prior to the start each week. Players buy tickets at $1 each and five tickets are drawn for one shot each. In the 5 weeks since we started NOBODY has made the 9 on my racks. In fact, the 9 hardly moves more than 6"-10".

Troy... Having said that, someone will probably make the 9 tonight..... /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

04-02-2002, 10:50 PM
Nine ball is best played using the scoring system of tennis (another sport where the person with the initial play has a distinct advantage). Alternative break to a race to 6 (or whatever) with a lead of two games. Can even incorporate sets into the game.

I think with the skill levels of pro players it is sad that many a tournament is decided on the lag.

The tennis system is much fairer - imaging the uproar if Pat Rafter kept the serve after every successful service game. It would almost certainly go down to the coin toss every time.

04-03-2002, 08:34 AM
"If you decide to accept the Sardo rack, I see no other way than for you to just accept it for what it is."

An abomination hatched from the devil spawn whose sole purpose is to squelch the little flicker of life still present in professional billiards?

04-03-2002, 10:01 AM
Here a wonderful notion. GET REFERREES FOR EACH MATCH. I have personally witnessed situations at the Open where players were the victims of no referees resulting in bad calls, outright lies by the opponent and nearly fisticuffs among the spectators sweating(betting on) the match.

The 'most prestigious tournament in the world' should have a referee at each table who racks and offiates each game.

Can't afford it. I am willing to bet that there are hundreds of people willing to volunteer to be referees for the US Open. The VNEA and the BCA pays for the rooms and gives coupons for the buffet at the Riviera for their volunteer referees.

Scott Smith should NOT be offiating at all. He is often the one running around making bets on the matches - just a little conflict of interest there dontcha' think?

You should have a head referee to address disputes. The rules should be explained in detail by the referee at the player's meeting and copies of the rules should be in every referee's pocket during every match.

As to the Sardo Rack. Put the one ball on the spot, divide the kitchen into halves and make the players break from alternate sides AND switch to alternate breaks. Then you will see who does have control of the rack. Players should start out with a tight rack whether from a referee or from a device.

04-03-2002, 10:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Rich R.:</font><hr> To my knowledge, there has never been a rule forcing a player to break hard. Rich R. <hr></blockquote>

I think the TE Rule requiring that four balls go to a rail was intended to try and force players to break hard.

04-03-2002, 10:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TheShot:</font><hr> I was told that "Tweeten" made both Master, and Silver Cup chalk. If this is true why does tweeten always promote the chalk that the players feel inadequate? <hr></blockquote>

Tweeten does not make Silver Cup chalk. Tweeten is the brand leader because they have been around forever and they have the biggest market share. Tweeten does make Triangle chalk which gets different opinions from players as to whether it is better or worse than Master. This is funny considering that Triangle and Master chalk are EXACTLY the same. The Triangle brand name was created for the British market.

I personally believe that Silver Cup chalk with a Master Label would be accepted, praised and used without question. Conversely, Master chalk with a Silver Cup label would be shunned.

04-03-2002, 10:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Rod:</font><hr> My last comment about this rack:
In your wildest dreams, can you ever imagine a sardo being used at the 14-1 Open championships? How about an all around with One pocket included? Scarry thought huh?
I hope you make the right choices, it's you future. <hr></blockquote>

I can imagine it at a 14.1 tournament and for one pocket. Actually for those two disciplines it might be better suited than nine ball.

Rich R.
04-03-2002, 10:18 AM
John, I have to disagree with you. In both 14.1 and one pocket, you play a lot more slow roll shots. Therefore, IMHO, the divots on the table, required for the Sardo rack, would not be acceptable. Rich R.~~~prefers playing on a smooth table.

Rod
04-03-2002, 10:35 AM
John, of course for those 2 games a player wants a good tight rack. That can be done without the Sardo. My reference is to the diviots made "training" the cloth.
Both games are played at the foot end of the table. Both games require close exact position at the business end.
A player has played perfect position, only to have a ball or cue ball roll into a divot and be left without a shot, or be completely locked up. It's not a question of will it happen, it's when it happens. There would be so many pi$$ed players you'd need a sound proof room to contain the yelling!

04-03-2002, 10:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Anonymous:</font><hr> "If you decide to accept the Sardo rack, I see no other way than for you to just accept it for what it is."

An abomination hatched from the devil spawn whose sole purpose is to squelch the little flicker of life still present in professional billiards? <hr></blockquote>

Hey Fran,
Why don't you tell us how you really feel! (smile)

Eric &gt; not up on the internet cute-sie stuff